A couple of weeks ago, I was driving home from the gym with my partner, Dottie (aka “Elise not her real name“) when we both felt a loud THUD. “Did I just get hit?” Dottie asked as she stopped for a red light. “Yes, definitely,” I replied before jumping out of the car and walking back towards a black BMW i4. I arrived at the driver’s window. “Please pull over, you hit us,” I stated. His reply: “What? I didn’t hit you.” I answered that indeed he had, and he should pull over. This man, so disoriented and confused he should almost consider running for president, pulled his car over and handed us his information. Fast forward a week, and what I thought should have been an open-shut case for State Farm resulted in the insurance company finding Dottie “at fault.” It is an absurd decision, and one that highlights the importance of dash cams and police reports.
Sometimes I need to just go with my gut instinct. This was one of those times. Upon reaching the sidestreet where we exchanged information with the BMW i4 driver who was born in 1935 (yes, you read that right), the man claimed we’d cut him off somehow. In reality, what had happened is that two lanes had become three, and he’d gotten confused about the lane markings and which lane he should remain in. So his right front hit our left rear.
Here’s the damage:
My first instinct was to call the police and get a police report, but Dottie produced a State Farm insurance card that gave instructions on what to do when in a fender bender, and I did not see “call police” anywhere on there. Maybe I missed it somehow, because I recall at the time that seemed odd to me, but in my head I thought: “Hmm, if the insurance company doesn’t mention that in the instructions, then maybe we shouldn’t reach out to the police in a fender bender.” In any case, we took photos of the incident, got the man’s insurance info, and moved along.
This was a mistake.
Fast forward a week, and we’ve submitted what in our heads should be the easiest insurance claim in history. We got rear-ended by an 89-year-old who had no clue what he was doing. But a few days later, we were contacted by State Farm, who told us they’d found Dottie at fault.
Obviously, this is ridiculous to us. The man in the i4 had literally told me he didn’t realize he’d gotten into a crash. (In his defense: Public transportation in LA is awful, so he kinda has little choice but to drive). Then he apparently told his insurance company, which also happens to be State Farm, that we’d cut him off. Do I think he intentionally lied? Maybe not; the man didn’t seem to really know what was going on, so maybe that’s what he truly thought. State Farm told us that, since both parties are State Farm clients, and they see this as a he-said-she-said situation, each person is at fault.
So what’s the takeaway here? First, always get a police report when in any fender-bender. I knew this, got thrown off guard by a dumb little “what to do when you’re in a crash” card, and blew it. Second, having a dash cam on your car is critical, because who knows if that police report would have changed anything. It’s possible State Farm would have seen it as a “he said she said” situation anyway, and at that point you have no recourse.
Without a dash cam, you’re just not protected. Someone can literally crash right into you and, in the absence of witnesses or police reports that can corroborate your claim, video footage, or any obvious signs that show exactly what happened, you will be at fault.
Dottie and I are still fighting this, mostly out of principle, since the 89-year-old seemed to me to be clearly cognitively impaired. For him to hit us and us be at fault is just wild. We’re working with local police to find footage of the incident, which occurred literally right out front of a police department.
It’s a reminder that any sense of security you feel about an Insurance company’s ability to dispense justice may be misplaced. When it comes to fender benders, they’re not expert investigators. They’ll take the photos you took they’ll listen to your statements, and then they’ll just guess based on that. They’re not necessarily going to look for video footage or witnesses or any of that. You have to protect yourself from liability. It’s an obvious lesson for many, but a worthy reminder.
As always, fuck State Farm
I recently dumped four policies with them and found a much better agent covering multiple companies. Coverage went up, cost went down. Amazing how that happened.
We also ditched the major insurance companies and went with an independent broker. Wound up with better coverage and lower rates. Our broker checks every year to see if changing to another company will get us lower rates.
This is the way. What we do as well.
I just want an insurer who will actually cover me when I need them. They don’t need to be the cheapest rates. Just actually have my back. I don’t think they exist though. Even USAA, which used to be the gold standard, seems to be just like every other insurer these days.
I was State Farm for years because that was what my parents had. Then I discovered how overpriced and underserviced they are. The only thing worse is Allstate. I now have USAA and Hagerty, both are great.
Allstate is great only in the very limited circumstance of owning a sportbike and living in Chicagoland, they insured my bike (with anti-theft included) and 3 cars for less than any other insurance would have insured just my bike (without anti-theft). Now that I switched to a naked bike I really have to change my insurance.
Way back in the day, Allstate dropped my dad’s coverage when he bought a motorcycle.
My car got totaled years ago by a State Farm customer. They tried to claim later that it was a dual-fault accident. Dude was drunk and swerved two lanes over from where he should have been to hit me head-on then fled the scene of the accident and pretended he’d been asleep at home, but forgot to brush the glass out of his hair.
If only you knew someone with insurance experience who might be able to offer suggestions. 😉
My dad was got into a parking lot fender bender with an older woman about 25 years ago. He was driving down the aisle and she backed out of a spot right into him. His driver rear passenger door was mangled. He didn’t get a police report, but just exchanged information.
Insurance companies deemed him at fault (for how I will never know), totaled her car, and their insurance sky rocketed. Hilariously enough, she never got her car fixed and we saw her driving it for years after.
Moral of the Story: Get a police report!
(As a side note, I got into an accident in a rental car on work travel awhile ago. The other driver turned across an intersection into me and doinked a brand new car. I called 311 and they told me to go to a police station and file a report. Both parties need to go, but they don’t have to go at the same time. The other driver’s insurance took fault and I haven’t heard from them rental car company since. Moral of this story: Call 311 if you’re in a major city to get a rundown of what to do)
That parking lot story is crazy, since the insurance company deemed my daughter at fault when she was backing out and someone hit her, even though she saw the other car and stopped before they hit her, and then the other car tried to squeeze by driving the wrong way and didn’t have enough room. She even had witnesses that she was stopped when the other car hit her, but insurance companies don’t care about facts.
That is absolutely wild. I don’t know how, even with witnesses, they could have deemed her at fault.
Saying a young driver is at fault means the insurance company can jack up the premiums and profit more. Profit over facts, as crapitalism expects.
That’s why I try to back in to parking spots.
Good luck getting the LAPD to show up for a minor accident.
I can pretty much guarantee that in any even moderately sized city in California, they won’t show up for a minor accident.
Across the US.
In NY a roofing contractor working on my house had his legally parked trailer hit by my neighbor (completely ripping off her driver side door) and he couldn’t get the cops to come for three days. He called when it initially happened the the local police (for a city of ~210,000 people in a metro area of ~1.2M) said they’d be right there. He calls back two hours later and asks what up, the dispatcher reassures him someone is right on their way. He ended up hanging out until 7pm (roughly 8 hours) and no one showed even though he started calling every hour.
So the next two days he start his day by calling to ask for an officer for a police report, getting to work on my roof, and then calling every break he took. They never showed and eventually his business insurance agent said not to worry about it, that the neighbors insurance had admitted fault.
They will ask if anyone is hurt or drunk and when you say no they say you can go to their website to file a report. When you go to the website it’s a Rick Astley video.
My car got broken into once in Houston. Stole my work laptop, so I call to report it per work policies. HPD says don’t call it in file a report on our website. Go to do that and it says you have to call in and report it at the time of the incident. So yeah they just dont want to hear about anything.
No one commented on the most important part of this story. So Dottie is her real name or different made up one like Elise?
Once in a while a flippant remark takes root.
Hoonicus
12 days ago
Enough with “Elise” . It’s either Dot or Dottie, we’ve seen the pictures.
28
In Russia, dash cams you!
Dash cams are almost a necessity now a day, however do not offer up at you have one at the scene if police arrive.
I saw a 20ish year old hit a retiree’s car (who had the proper right of way). Kid thought he was in the right and told the cop he had a dash cam. I got out of my car as a witness and told the cop what I saw, which contradicted the kid with the dash cam. A few weeks later I got a call from the retiree’s insurance (USAA), asking for my statement. After providing my statement I asked if they saw the dash cam footage yet. The agent pretty much confirmed that my story is what happened, and without the dash cam footage, I would have likely ended up in court as the only witness.
So, State Farm insures both drivers? If they find both drivers at fault, they can raise rates on both drivers…
CSAA basically charges both drivers like no-fault insurance if both are insured by them.
I may have to get a dashcam, but police report is not a guarantee, I was driving my e24 M6 back from a car show in Michigan when a driver (proudly more elderly than myself?) noticed his lane was blocked due to construction and started to come into my lane, I sounded the horn thinking there was no way he couldn’t clearly see me. Well, my best guess is he just ignored the horn, but his formal defense was that he didn’t see me but it was my obligation to let him over. I called local police who for some reason didn’t cite him, thus I was out the deductible. Next time I will drive off he road to avoid any paint contact, the deductible being nothing compared to the time required to find parts for a 37 year old car. Statefarm can be difficult to deal with I sometime think they want to lose clients.
In February I got T-boned pulling out of my driveway, as I was inching around a Silverado that was blocking the view. As soon as I saw the other guy coming, I came to a full stop and leaned on the horn.
The other driver wasn’t looking at the road, and after he noticed me sitting there, didn’t have enough time to stop. Per insurance, my fault since he had the right of way, and I was obligated to put my car in reverse and back out of the road when I saw him coming.
Actually my fault – lowest level of coverage in CA is only $5,000 liability, and turns out, replacing the bumper of a 2012 Corolla is $5,300.
Mostly I blame the street I live on – one and a half lanes, speed limit 20, but between two highways so some people who are, say, late to pick up their kids, use it as a shortcut.
I would get a dashcam but they violate my states wiretapping laws where all parties must consent to the recording. I can use them indoors but even a Ring camera is a grey area since it records a public road.
what state do you live in?
Are you sure about that? I have always been under the impression video recording is legal in public spaces in all US states.
I could see where capturing audio could be a grey area in specific situations (i.e. incidentally capturing telephone conversations), but I’m surprised to hear that video recording would be illegal on public streets.
Nope, this is incorrect
Well I reviewed the law a few times and it outright says it is considered wire tapping. Audio or video only doesn’t matter. There is a law on the books that states dashcams are illegal to use here. Can’t get much more clear than that.
Recording in public is a separate issue but dashcams have there own section.
What state?
No no, he can’t answer that part because then he will be proven wrong….
Thank for the attack. I am willing to admit mistakes. It is this kind of attitude that made me leave the previous site.
I hate to keep questioning you about this, but I’m genuinely curious.
Could you post the language of the statute in your state which specifically addresses dash cams? Could you also post the statutes where it says video recording is considered wiretapping? I have been under the impression video recording in public places in most circumstances has been interpreted by courts as protected by the first amendment. I am not a lawyer so I acknowledge I may have no idea what I’m talking about.
I have looked at a few states and they appear to have similar laws to what we have in my state (Florida). We have laws that prohibit audio recordings without consent (this presumably applies to conversations within the car, phone conversations with someone outside of the car, and possibly recordings of conversations with individuals outside of the car).
As for video, you can record without consent in places with no expectation of privacy (the statute gives a few examples where there is an expectation of privacy including bathrooms, the interior of a residence, changing rooms, etc.). I presume this means recording video within a vehicle without consent could be illegal, but I don’t see anything that precludes recording video outside of the vehicle on public streets (i.e. where there is no expectation of privacy).
The law has changed since the last time I saw it. The still disallow audio with out all party’s consent. Here is the summary:
Dash cameras are permitted, but there are a few rules to be aware of.
Installing dash cams on the front windshields of your car is prohibited;
instead, mount them on the dashboard.
You may, however, install interior-facing and rear-view cameras.
Additionally the driver must be able to see the dash cam’s display. You must seek everyone’s permission before capturing their voices on your dash cameras if they are capable of recording audio.
So I can be mistaken or have out of date info, that is called life.
Those rules seem consistent with what I see. Sounds like your state has rules as to how they can be mounted as well as rules against recording sound without consenst.
I might have misunderstood what you wrote originally. I thought you were saying that you could not have a dash can because recording video was illegal, but it seems to be other issues instead.
At one point it was totally illegal, they have backed off. The hardest part is finding a cam that mounts on the dash vs window.
Keep fighting it – the insurance company is trying to take a easy way out for them. He was at fault and he caused the accident. You should be out nothing.
“Since both parties are State Farm clients” State Farm is using this to their benefit and will raise premiums for both drivers. If they say it as the BMW’s fault, they can only raise rates on one.
And since the insurance lobby is one of the largest lobbies in nearly every state, their legal departments write laws they then pass on to State Reps (paid for) and are then submitted verbatim. The consumer/public has no recourse.
This was my first thought as well.
I think the bigger thing is they’ll also collect two deductibles vs one. Or depending if DT and the other driver had comprehensive or liability only, this might be a sneaky way to have two of your insured drivers hit each other and not have to pay out any coverage?
Even if you called the police there is a good chance they were not going to send anyone since both cars were drivable, no one was injured, and there was no argument or fighting amongst the parties at the scene.
So what your saying is if you ever get into a minor accident you should immediately incite a fight
Yeah you’re not getting a police report in Philadelphia for a minor accident. You could wait 3 hours, they’re not coming.
All you have to do is illegally park while waiting and the PPA will be there in under 20 minutes.
A police report and police coming to the scene are two different things. In CA you’re required to file a police report if the accident has more than $750 damage, total. Which basically means every accident that causes damage.
Today’s example of insurance is shit.
Can’t wait for the insurance simps to pop up in the comments.
There are insurance company simps? That’s somehow worse than normal e-girl simps.
Talk about how auto insurance shouldn’t be mandatory and they’ll pop out of the woodwork.
Ok I’ll simp for you.
I don’t agree with insurance rates, government lobbying, business practices, etc, but liability insurance absolutely must be mandatory.
If you dont have it, please get insurance.
It being madatory is why prices and product are as bad as they are, because if you don’t have it you’ll get the Government’s boot up your ass.
The provider of a good or service that you have to legally buy as mandated by the Government means the providers can charge whatever they want and give you as shitty of service as they want while doing so.
At least without mandatory insurance there’s some competition between insurance companies. Not saying it would solve everything, but it would definitely be better than the way things are currently.
I ride a bicycle around if I’m driving any vehicle currently, and more likely than not I’ll be going car free wherever I move after the next few years due to the auto insurance mandates. (though I could move to NH and avoid the auto insurance mandates there, I just hate ticks, mosquitos, and humidity).
Fully agree that their business practices are nasty, and I think it’s great that you are choosing to ride a bike whenever possible.
Mandatory insurance still protects you as you ride, even though you pay no premium. If, God forbid, a shitty driver were to hit you while riding or walking, etc. Their mandatory insurance would protect you and your dependents from severe financial penalty and hardship.
If the driver was uninsured, you would be on your own.
If I were to be hit by a car on my bicycle and seriously injured bean counters would argue over how much my life is worth while I’m getting medical treatment. If said insurance doesn’t pay out I’m stuck suing them.
I’m better off on my own than dealing with giant government madated bureaucracies whose business model is literally paying out less money then they take in, and often enough they achieve this by finding the most bullshit reasons to deny claims and payouts.
The more money is on the line the less likely the insurance company is to pay out. At a certain point it’s cheaper not pay out and instead to pay the lawyers they have on retainers and or in house lawyers when you eventually sue, as the people and companies making insurance claims usually need those insurance funds, and if you wait them out as an insurance company the overwhelming majority of the time you’ll either get them to settle for less than you owe them, or they’ll go bankrupt and be forced to end their case against you.
I’ve personally seen this happen twice, and only because one of the board members of the company is a very very good business law lawyer did the insurance company pay out AFTER we sued them and they knew they’d lose.
God help you if you’re an average American.
Again, I do agree that the business model is terrible. I still think liability insurance should be mandatory.
As you imply, for profit insurance is the real problem.
The VA and most socialized healthcare systems suck for anything that is expensive.
I think we could have free basic healthcare in the US by having Government ran basic hospital facilities where in exchange for free medical school doctors have to serve X many years as a doctor for said hospitals, very similar to how it is done in the military.
However I think that the more complex and or expensive the care gets the lower the efficiency and the higher the costs.
The Canadian Healthcare system works pretty well, with some exceptions.
Other systems like England or France are examples of working models that could be copied by the US.
The problem is that for-profit Healthcare providers have such a historic stronghold on the US Healthcare system, so policy makers, who are all supported by these interests, must pretend that socialized Healthcare is like reinventing the wheel.
So well they pressured a paralympian military vet to use a Medical Assistance In Dying kit after they have waited years to have a wheelchair ramp installed at their home.
It’s a lot cheaper to have your patients kill themselves than to fix their medical problems.
Even when not at fault, just filing a claim creates a record in a lexis nexis database that all insurance companies will use to justify jacking up your rate ~20%. I once canceled a claim after the guy who hit me wrote me a check, but I’m still being punished by higher rates for 5 years because my record shows “Accident – not at fault”.
Wait, since when can an insurer charge you more for a not-at-fault accident?
Because they have discounts for being “claims free.” Any claim on record, even not your fault, is no longer “claims free.” It’s a sneaky way of raising rates.
And when I got quotes elsewhere, one of them wouldn’t even consider me because I had a claim. “Oh, you actually tried to USE your insurance?” No thanks!”
Because “fuck you” that is why,
Yeah, this almost happened when my Thunderbird got wrecked. I was on the interstate in the right lane, heading towards my exit. Traffic had backed up to a stop from the exit onto the interstate. I hit the brakes – not crazy sudden so there should have been enough time to stop – but the person behind me (in the right lane, no less) was speeding enough that I could tell she wasn’t going to stop on time.
I actually had enough foresight to let off the brakes a bit and prepare myself for the hit. She swerved right, then left, striking the right rear of my car, then kept going left into traffic and clipped another car. That car spun out and lightly clipped two more cars. The whole thing snarled up I-264 for hours.
The crazy part is that the speeder who rear ended me tried to blame it on the car she spun out, saying she was cut off. That wasn’t anywhere near the scenario and the police report backed that up. Unfortunately the whole thing turned into a nightmare for the driver of the car that spun out. She had some nagging injuries and wasn’t able to drive for a while after thanks to a ton of anxiety. We’ve remained friends ever since – I even comped her to one of my shows, but I wish I could help her more.
Meanwhile the person who caused the accident was in a rental car from a mom n pop rental car company with crap insurance and didn’t even bother to show up to court. I had to show up in court because the state trooper subpoenaed me as a witness so there went a day.
The scary lesson was how easy it was to try and confuse the cause of an obvious accident. This idiot was speeding in the right lane and rear-ended me, causing a pile-up, and while she didn’t get away with it, she almost did.
YMMV. Around me, accidents like this are so common, that police won’t take a report unless one of the vehicles is seriously disabled (e.g, obvious structural damage, missing a wheel, etc), or someone was injured in the accident.
In my case, a dashcam very clearly showed I was not at fault for an otherwise ambiguous he said, she said mess.
TDLR: get a dashcam, check it regularly.
Luckily in the 7 years I’ve had my dashcam I’ve never needed it*. Occasionally I pull a clip to post online whenever I encounter a truly stupid driver.
*Old man in my apartment building crushed my left rear quarter panel backing out of his spot in his truck once. He hadn’t even realized he’d done it, but didn’t deny responsibility when I confronted him. Rightly or wrongly, we avoided insurance and he cut me a check once I got an estimate from a body shop for the repair.
A couple months later he totaled it, and I learned his family had taken away his previous car because they had decided he should no longer be driving. They didn’t know he had that truck in storage.
This happened to me 10 years ago. Hit at a red light by an imbecile on his phone in a company owned Ford work van.
Claimed I cut in front of him, even though I’d been stopped at the red light a full 30 seconds before he slammed into my truck, and sent it to the wrecking yard forever.
Called the local cops to report. They were as useless as tits on a bull.
We both had Auto Owners insurance. Guess whose side they took?
My lawyer said it was probably because the company that employed this douche nozzle had a fleet of vans insured with them. Bigger fish, and all that crap.
I sued, and won. But it took 4 years to settle it out.
BTW, fuck Auto Owners insurance co.
I’d rather give my money to the “Mayhem” guy.
At least he’s honest, right? /s
I was t-boned many years ago. I was on a main street with the right of way. He was crossing that street from one neighborhood to another. We filled out a police report (available at a nearby gas station) and he admitted fault at the scene.
Fast forward a few days, he apparently told his insurance company that I was at fault because I should have seen him coming and dodged him. Fortunately his insurance adjuster called him out and assigned him with 100% blame. You never know how people’s story will change when they realize that they are indeed at fault.
Sounds like the guy who rammed my parked car, and claimed it was my fault because my tire was on the line. There were 20 other spots available with no car on either side. He actually called his insurance company while there expecting to be found not at fault, but after about 5 minutes on the phone he handed the phone to me, where the nice agent told me he was obviously at fault and started me on the claims process right there, before the police even showed up.
So I’m cruising along, and everything is just wonderful. The roads are great, the weather is tremendous, the whole thing is a total win. I’m focused, I’m doing fantastic, everything is going according to plan. When suddenly—bam!—I hit this car. Didn’t even see it coming. Didn’t even notice it, folks.
Now, some people might say, “ , how could you not notice?” And I’ll tell you why. It’s because I’m so focused on being a winner, on winning so big that sometimes, you know, things happen. It’s the nature of being so successful. You’re just moving fast, you’re doing great things, and sometimes these little things, they just don’t register.
So I rear-end this car. Not a big deal, right? I look in the rearview mirror, and I see this car, and it’s a nice car—probably a good car, not like my cars, which are the best. But it’s a nice car. I’m sure it’s a very nice car. And I’m thinking, “Okay, this is what happens when you’re a winner. Sometimes you make mistakes, but you handle them like a champ.”
I get out, and I’m greeted by this guy, and I tell him, “Listen, I’m very sorry. I didn’t see you. It’s not my fault, but we’ll handle this in the best way possible.” Because when you’re a winner, you take care of things. You make sure everyone is happy, and everything gets sorted out. Believe me.
So we sort it out. The whole thing is handled. It’s done. And the lesson here is simple: when you’re a winner, things happen, but you handle them with grace and style. And you make sure everybody knows you’re a winner. Always a winner. Tremendous.
Got my vote.
Huh. Never pegged ya for a Tony Robbins guy, DT. lol
Is that the guy from Shawshank Redemption?
Hahaha! No, it’s not the guy who made babies with the Ping-Pong magnate.
Stop the Presses David Tracy Named a (admittedly +20 year old) pop(ish) culture Movie 😉
But are you winning BIGLY? Cause that’s all that really counts here.
I win so bigly, I beat the laws of mathematics and bankrupted my casinoES.
Bigly COTD, would hamberder again
Mistakes Are For Losers. SAD!
How does a dashcam help when hit from behind?
That’s why I have one facing the back too!
They do have front and rear ones but even with just a front one they could prove that they were stopped at the time of the hit
There are many dashcam systems now have a camera on both the front and back. It’s fairly common option.
I mean depending on the exact circumstances it could help. Like if your dash cam shows that you were just cruising along going straight at a safe constant speed and then suddenly a thunk and you’ve got damage on your rear corner, that’s pretty good evidence of who is not at fault.
They won’t guess, they’ll use any source of ambiguity as an excuse not to pay up. Their entire profit motive revolves around not paying claims.
Since both parties have the same insurer, the motive to avoid paying the claims seem irrelevant.
Id hazard a guess that since the insurer has to pay both claims regardless of fault, it simply isn’t worth their time to investigate.
Assume $3000 in damage per car and $500 deductibles.
If both parties are at fault, both sides pay their own deductibles, and State Farm picks up the difference. State Farm pays 2x ($3000-$500) = $5000.
If the old man is ruled at fault, his policy pays for his damage (less deductible) and all of DT’s damages. $2500 + $3000 = $5500.
So it does matter to State Farm.
Ha, fair point. $500 (and a few hours saved) x a billion cases a year is real money after all.
“State Farm told us that, since both parties are State Farm clients, and they see this as a he-said-she-said situation, each person is at fault.”
And Voila! Nobody gets paid.