The advent of the affordable lithium 12V automotive and powersports battery has been a game-changer for so many enthusiasts, myself included. A lithium battery can make the electrical system of an old vehicle feel newer and maybe even make your systems work with more vigor than before. But lithium batteries are also not something you want to roll the dice on.
Today, Lewin wrote about how a lithium battery fire almost consumed a classic RX-7. This lithium battery might have powered a huge custom sound system, and the vehicle’s owner allegedly had the battery sitting on a trickle charger before it went up in flames. Our Internet detective readers figured out a few interesting bits about the alleged battery, which could have been a Limitless Retro Pro 56. Bizness Comma Nunya notes:
So…. this is VERY relevant to my job, and previous jobs.
Just a quick look at the specs on the battery, and one single thing stood out for me:
This battery doesn’t have a BMS…
Take that and let’s assume that the quality of the LFP cells is from a bargain basement supplier (think the opposite of a CATL, BYD, etc..)
On top of both of those points, this was hooked up to a trickle charger. Was the trickle charger rated for this battery? Was the battery rated for the trickle charger?
Recipe for failure
While batteries without management systems can still be useful, you have to be careful because the battery itself has no way to prevent a thermal runaway event before it happens. A BMS can work to prevent a battery from being charged or discharged too much. A BMS can also try to protect the battery from temperature damage and help balance the cells for longevity.
Thankfully, there is a cheat code. You can buy a battery with a built-in BMS like the Noco I have pictured above.
Today, I wrote about how Toyota gave Tundra 5.7 V8 buyers the option to buy a warranty-compliant supercharger from their dealers good for 504 HP. Kevin B Rhodes says:
You can’t make a racehorse out of a pig, you just end up with a faster pig.
Then comes TheDrunkenWrench:
Then come on down to Fine Swine Racing! We’ll saddle your sow and make you go “wow!”
Finally, Alexk98 has some bizarre news about the tariffs:
Well I’ve got incredible news for any Lada owners out there, Russia was NOT on the tariff list! Despite the US having a $2.5B trade deficit with the country in 2024, Russia is getting no new tariffs, meaning your Lada Niva parts won’t change much in price at all!
You may be wondering, so surely some other countries were forgotten from the list then, given Russia is hardly a US ally right? Well you’d be mistaken, even uninhabited islands are covered by this round of tariffs, so surely there can be no excuse for “forgetting” to add Russia to that list. Do with that info what you will.
Belarus, Cuba, and North Korea aren’t on the tariff list, but Syria is. Look, I’m bewildered, too. Anyway, here are some more pictures of the Hot Wheels dioramas that have shown up on my doorstep:
Have a great evening, everyone!
Lithium Batteries what type of chainsaw do you folks use to replace yours – is the same you would use for NIMH?
Is that a widebody Brabus SLC in your diorama??
The comments on swine and race cars reminds me of the Tillamook Oregon tradition of Pig-N-Ford racing, https://www.tillamookfair.com/p/fair-info/pig-n-ford-race which involves Model T speedster with porcine passengers. Oregon Field Guide did a segment you can find online
Thanks for the COTD shout-out!
Also glad that your LFP motorcycle battery DOES in fact have a BMS.
I live my LiFePO a quarter mile at a time.
hahaha ok, this is a good one
My first COTD – yeah!
No way would I put a random cheapo lithium battery in a car. They are great technology, but they can be VERY dangerous if not used exactly correctly. and for the cheapo ones, you may not know what “correctly” actually entails. I had what was supposed to be a good quality pack for one of my R/C planes go up while on a GOOD charger – which is why I only charge the things OUTSIDE. Just a little 3-cell pack for my 2M motorized sailplane, but it still melted a hole in my driveway.
Those dioramas are seriously cool! Is that an HO scale GM Fishbowl and an N scale RS3 peaking in?
I didn’t expect my angry ramblings about the tariff news to end up on here, but I’ll take it!
Russian Bukhanka Van imports are about to go through the roof!
Would it make sense that those aren’t on the list, just because all imports from them are already banned, so there aren’t any imports to actually tariff? I don’t care enough to research whether that’s the case or not, but it would make sense
That was the explanation I heard, but then they’d have to explain why we’re putting tariffs on barren islands full of penguins.
National Security. America has to start producing it’s own guano again.
Besides, penguins are very bad people…Very bad…I saw it in a movie…
If the tariffs were being implemented by someone smarter, sure. But judging by all the other dumb shit he’s done I don’t think this would be the reason. Biden put a 100% tariff on Chinese cars and Trump said make it 200%! Bigger number better! So nuance and logic aren’t really factors.
You would think on it’s face that that is a reasonable explanation, but the US had over a 2 Billion dollar trade deficit to russia in 2024 but had multiple billions of trade flowing in each direction, which is to say, there is absolutely trade to be tariffed. Any explanation given falls very flat on it’s face when uninhabited islands were added to the tariff list.
Yes, this is the obvious explanation. It’s not like Trump is a big Cuba fan.
Hooray! ‘Ol Gil is finally back on top!
How many COTDs can I put ya down for? A lot? Please say a lot. I need this.
I NEED this COTD, my wife’s gonna leave me!
In the remote control world, the battery management is generally top balancing handled by the charger. The user has to have some knowledge too. Such as: make sure the cells are close in voltage to start, how to figure out the correct C rating to charge the pack and that the pack itself is good to be charged.
As lithium moves into the mainstream of automotive aftermarket/hotrodding, it’s gonna take a while for people to actually conceptualize and respect just HOW MUCH stored energy is in a battery cell, just waiting to fuck up your day.
it shouldn’t stop anyone, but folks need to understand the forces they’re wielding when playing with pissed off pixies crammed in a tiny tube.
Troll them with chaos majick. And sharp, pointy sticks. They like to burn things. Mischievous little bastards.
That’s the best description of electricity I’ve ever read.
I can’t take credit, Chris Boden is an absolute wordsmith. If you’ve never seen his youtube stuff, he’s like Bill Nye for adults.
Yep, crazy how a small little pack can huck a plane around the sky. Much less helicopters! Those can do things that appear to break physics.
Just put it in terms of gasoline. Most people understand a tank of gasoline burns and there is about 3-4x as much potential heat in a full tank of gas as in a battery.
Gasoline is not an oxidizer. Do you even NFPA 704, bro?
As a Ph.D. chemist I’d have to say yes. How about you?
A typical car engine is somewhere between 20-40% thermally efficient at turning the energy stored in gasoline into mechanical energy whereas a battery and motor gets about 90% of the stored energy in the battery into mechanical energy. Thus all else being equal a car needs ~3-4x as much energy stored in gasoline as in a battery to do the same work And don’t worry, you’ll have all the oxidizer you’ll need should the gas tank rupture.
Air isn’t an oxidizer, it is just a source of oxygen.
That’s why we’re more scared of lithium battery fires as opposed to liquid fuels. We can separate the oxygen equation in a liquid fuel fire.
With lithium, you need to first stop the flow of energy, which can be hard depending on how far along it is.
Then you need to douse it with enough water to remove the heat part of the equation to stop the chemical reaction. Since, you know, it’s actively producing it’s own oxygen.
The entire point is that the potential energy is less important compared to the containment of that energy and how the hell to stop the reaction once it gets out.
“Air isn’t an oxidizer, it is just a source of oxygen.”
I take it its been while since you last took chemistry. Or perhaps you just haven’t had your morning coffee yet:
“A combustion reaction is an exothermic chemical reaction between a fuel and an oxidizer that forms an oxidized product. In general chemistry, it is one of the main types of chemical reactions. Combustion is a reaction between a hydrocarbon fuel (e.g., coal, propane, wood, methane) and molecular oxygen (O2), producing carbon dioxide (CO2), water (H2O), and heat.”
https://sciencenotes.org/combustion-reaction-definition-and-examples/
“That’s why we’re more scared of lithium battery fires as opposed to liquid fuels. We can separate the oxygen equation in a liquid fuel fire.”
Sometimes, sometimes not. Especially on a hot day. Gasoline fires are no joke. If you’re not trained in fighting a gasoline fire you may end up making the problem worse. Not that it matters much, almost nobody carries a fire extinguisher in the car so until the fire department shows up you’re SOL.
Under the Globally Harmonized System & Transportation of Dangerous Goods, an oxidizer is classified as something that produces lots of readily available oxygen. It does not require an outside source of it to combust.
That is what we classify lithium batteries and why they have different placarding when being transported.
I have yet to see a gasoline filled vehicle ignite and/or reignite with zero outside influence. Which cannot be said for lithium.
The reality is that gasoline, for all of it’s low flashpoint, is actually pretty stable. It also becomes less volatile with age to the point it may not ignite. Lithium batteries always carry the risk so long as they carry charge.
I’ll also add that the NFPA is on my side for this one
(pgs 3219-20) NFPA Glossary of Terms (2024)
Under the Globally Harmonized System & Transportation of Dangerous Goods, an oxidizer is classified as something that produces lots of readily available oxygen.
That would be air.
The reality is that gasoline, for all of it’s low flashpoint, is actually pretty stable. It also becomes less volatile with age to the point it may not ignite. Lithium batteries always carry the risk so long as they carry charge.
So just like gasoline lithium batteries become more stable with time.
I have yet to see a gasoline filled vehicle ignite and/or reignite with zero outside influence. Which cannot be said for lithium.
I haven’t seen a lithium battery ever ignite, outside influence or not. And I have a lot more lithium batteries than I do gas tanks.
I’ll also add that the NFPA is on my side for this one
Not really:
As lithium moves into the mainstream of automotive aftermarket/hotrodding, it’s gonna take a while for people to actually conceptualize and respect just HOW MUCH stored energy is in a battery cell, just waiting to fuck up your day.
it shouldn’t stop anyone, but folks need to understand the forces they’re wielding when playing with pissed off pixies crammed in a tiny tube.
To which your linked NFPA document says:
While a recent NFPA® blog discussed how some studies1,2,3 have shown electric vehicle fires don’t necessarily produce a higher total or peak heat release rate than fires involving traditional combustion engine vehicles, they do however pose a unique hazard. Combustion engine vehicle fires are prone to having a fuel tank failure, which can cause a rapidly developing fire that peaks high but burns out fast. Electric vehicles, on the other hand, are more prone to a fire starting in their batteries, which develops slower, is not as large, but burns longer
(emphasis mine)
My point was a gas tank holds just as much (or more) energy that can fuck up your day as a battery.
By all means, ignore whatever you need to from the provided link to support your view.
Then go call any Fire Dept you can find and ask them which fires they’d rather fight. I have a feeling I know what the majority of them will say, as we’ve been working with Fire Depts to retrofit our buildings for EV buses.
Conveniently, we didn’t need nearly the number of precautions for our diesel powered units, despite diesel having more potential BTUs per gallon than even gasoline, and us having 130+ gallons in each unit.
By all means, ignore whatever you need to from the provided link to support your view.
So how about you quote what in that link you provided you think supports your view? Here – let me show you how its done:
Combustion engine vehicle fires are prone to having a fuel tank failure, which can cause a rapidly developing fire that peaks high but burns out fast.
Long enough to fuck up your day though. Or end it completely.
Or how the “Research Institute of Sweeden (their spelling) says combustion engine vehicles are “more likely to have a fire”. So by your own link a gasoline fire is more likely to fuck up your day than a lithium battery fire.
Or this:
Unfortunately, there is not yet as large of a collection of available data for electric vehicle fires when compared to combustion engine vehicles, so there is going to be a difference in the confidence level of findings.
Which means any data in this provided link may be completely wrong.
Then go call any Fire Dept you can find and ask them which fires they’d rather fight. I have a feeling I know what the majority of them will say, as we’ve been working with Fire Depts to retrofit our buildings for EV buses.
Then go ask any random person if they’d rather be trapped in a car burning from a battery or gasoline. Pretty sure they won’t give a damn what’s causing the fire, they’ll just want out of the car.
Conveniently, we didn’t need nearly the number of precautions for our diesel powered units, despite diesel having more potential BTUs per gallon than even gasoline, and us having 130+ gallons in each unit.
Nice scarecrow.
Most lithium batteries nowadays (even cheaper ones) have BMS built-in, some even have ‘smart’ BMS’s that can balance at lower voltages (not just top-balancing) with Buetooth & phone apps that show you charging state at cell level.
Makes no sense to cheap out on some no-name bottom-of-the-barrell crappy battery that could set your ride or your house on fire just to save $50.
I’m talking about recreational remote control vehicle battery packs. Those don’t have an internal BMS. They have balancing leads that plug into the charger alongside the main charge leads. In that use, the battery is charged as needed and kept at 50% charge when not in use. It’s one less point of failure in a pack that will regularly experience high G forces.
For about every other application, yes, an internal BMS should be used.
Great, now he’s gonna fill the US with cars built in Cuba, Belarus, and North Korea. A nation full of Trabants.
Go on, tell me you don’t want to see someone drop an LS motor into a Trabant…
Playing the long game – if we pay the Swedes for the 1000 Volvo 144’s sent to North Korea (that they haven’t paid for 50 years later), we could probably repatriate them with no problem.
Don’t worry. By that time the economy will have seriously tanked and we won’t be able to afford Trabants.
Those dioramas are awesome! Were they crafted or ordered? I’m wanting something like that for my collection I have of cars I’ve owned in hot wheels form, but more diner style.
http://www.google.com
hot wheels diner diorama
Really? With a google it response? I was wondering if there was a specific kit she ordered and made them or come ready made like that.
Mercedes did an article on it recently:
https://www.theautopian.com/the-coolest-way-to-display-your-hot-wheels-cars-is-in-this-shockingly-accurate-mini-gas-station/
Dang I totally missed that article, thanks!
I am located in Europe and search results showed various nice handmade examples, even 3D printed. So there are a few options in a less than 100 $ range