It is getting messy in Auburn Hills, the corporate HQ of Stellantis North America. Real Housewives of Beverley Hills-level drama. On one side you’ve got the leadership of the Stellantis National Dealer Council (NDC), and on the other side, you’ve got Carlos Tavares being painted as the Lisa Rinna-type villain. It is naaaaaaasty.
The theme of today’s Morning Dump is: Friends and Enemies. We’re going to start with Carlos Tavares because, if you believe his dealers, he’s basically traded the company’s future for a short-term financial gain that has benefited him and no one else. Stellantis, as you might guess, disagrees.
Nissan’s dealers are also unhappy with their leadership as the company looks to cut its way to success.
China, notably, has a lot of friends. It also, notably, has a lot of less-than-friends. The country’s automakers are looking to expand production overseas, in spite of a decent amount of domestic overcapacity, and a new report makes it sound like China’s leadership is winking and nodding as to where it might be smart, or not smart, to build new plants.
And, finally, GM and Hyundai embarked on a big friendship today in order to… do things. Many things. They don’t have a specific plan, but they at least have the concept of a plan.
Stellantis: ‘We Take Absolute Exception’ To Being Told We Suck
Dealer groups and their OEMs are like teenagers and parents. They all generally want to be prosperous and understand that prosperity involves working together, but that doesn’t mean they always get along. Sometimes they’re at cross purposes and the parents have to act a certain way while the teenagers, being teenagers, get a little bit of leeway.
It varies from company to company, depending largely on ownership structure, but the CEOs aren’t always the dads (or moms) in this scenario. They’re the step-parents. In the case of Stellantis, whose brands include Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge/Ram/Fiat/Alfa Romeo/Maserati in the United States, the stepdad is Carlos Tavares, pictured above.
The teens are not happy. In fact, they are super pissed at Tavares for his management of the company. And, sure, Stellantis is a global brand. A global brand that loses money in a lot of the world and makes a big chunk of that money back in the United States!
All of this came to light because the NDC, and its president Kevin Farrish, sent an open letter calling out Stellantis for a bunch of mistakes. From Bloomberg, which saw the letter:
Retailers accused Tavares of “short-term decision making” that boosted profits last year and padded the CEO’s compensation. The moves ended up shrinking the company’s market share and hurting the Jeep, Ram, Dodge and Chrysler brands, the national dealer council said in an open to Tavares dated Sept. 10.
[…]
“For over two years now, the US Stellantis National Dealer Council has been sounding this alarm to your US executive team, warning them that the course you had set for Stellantis was going to be a disaster in the long run,” the group said in the letter. “A disaster not just for us, but for everyone involved — and now that disaster has arrived.”
Does Farrish read The Morning Dump? Maybe! Because what he’s calling out sounds awfully familiar, though perhaps it’s just because it’s so obvious. In fact, Tavares has sometimes admitted to making mistakes and being arrogant about the problem. He can afford to be a little arrogant because he’s the highest-paid automotive CEO in the world.
That payout seems to be one of the sticking points with dealers. They’re claiming that their revenues are down as the company just continued to build the same old models while also not investing in any replacements:
Dealers fear Tavares’ recent production cuts will further erode market share. They’ve also criticized him for thin investments in the carmaker’s aging product lineup, such as ending production of the Jeep Cherokee without an immediate replacement in the popular midsize SUV segment.
It’s not a great look, and I am sympathetic to dealers who, instead of being able to sell a bunch of new hybrid products, are stuck trying to shovel old-looking Durangos without enough incentive support. Chrysler has one vehicle, and Dodge only has four (though two are discontinued).
How did Stellantis respond? By putting out the following statement:
We take absolute exception to the letter sent by the president of the Stellantis National Dealer Council (NDC), Kevin Farrish. Last month, we introduced an action plan developed with the dealer body that has already shown results. August sales were up 21% over July, market share was up 0.7 points, and dealer inventory was reduced for two consecutive months by 42,000 units or approximately 10% in total.
This is the result of working together with our dealer network and we want to thank them for their constant support and engagement. We meet and talk monthly, have weekly calls and personal conversations at the highest level. This is where such dialogue should take place.
At Stellantis, we don’t believe that public personal attacks, such as the one in the open letter from the NDC president against our CEO, are the most effective way to solve problems. We have started a path that will prove successful. We will continue to work with our dealers to avoid any public disputes that will delay our ability to deliver results.
Yikes. It’s really giving:
and another thing: im not mad. please dont put in the newspaper that i got mad.
— palantir man (@dril) December 29, 2014
Stellantis doesn’t release monthly sales numbers so we don’t really know how well or poorly it did other than what it says above, but even a 10% improvement means its dealers are stuck with a lot of vehicles. Also, since Stellantis stopped producing a bunch of models, how much of this sell-off is just the natural consequence of not having more new cars?
Here’s the July Days’ Supply of Inventory by Brand graph from Cox Automotive – vAuto, which looks not-great if you’re a Stellantis dealer:
I highlighted the Stellantis brands in red. You can see the industry average in green. The more cars stuck on the lot the worse. If you’re wondering where Ram is, the brand is so bad that it’s too bad to even fit on the graphic (along with Lincoln).
There’s a way to read this that is sympathetic to Tavares. He’s trying to deal with a large company that has stakeholders around the globe, including governments (try to ignore that Stellantis always seems to be in a fight with those governments for a moment), and he’s trying to reconfigure the company for a more prosperous future. This might mean less production in some places and it might be smarter, in the long term, for Stellantis to lose some dealers so it can focus on more profitable markets to protect its margin. That’s a big deal for Stellantis and, so far this year, the company has seen its revenue, sales, and gross profit margins all drop considerably. Worse than any other major automaker.
A less charitable, possibly more cynical view, is that Carlos Tavares worked under Carlos Ghosn at Nissan-Renault and saw another CEO do a good job of increasing the value of his companies without getting compensated for it at what they might feel was a proportional level. Ghosn allegedly tried to fix this problem himself with a little freelance accounting and wound up under arrest in Japan. The other Carlos saw a way to get paid out in a way that wouldn’t land him in jail.
I don’t know what the reality is. I don’t know Carlos Tavares, though I’d love to chat with him. He seems fun. And while he isn’t at any obvious risk of landing in a crate like Ghosn, he’s certainly landed himself in hot water.
Nissan Cuts Production Of Best-Selling Rogue And Frontier Truck
Nissan dealers, like Stellantis dealers, are not exactly DJ Jazzy Jeff’d with their parents, either. A whopping 40% of dealers in this country are reportedly losing money this year and Nissan’s products are average, at best. Nissan, to its credit, seems to recognize this, and is planning an aggressive product push to get itself out of the hole.
It’s going to be rough in the short-term, with Automotive News reporting that Nissan sent a memo to its dealers saying it’ll be cutting production of the Nissan Rogue, which is the company’s best-selling model, and the Frontier. The company has tried to help by turning up incentives, but this move might not help much:
Nissan lacks an incentive strategy to drive Rogue demand, another retailer said, noting the absence of discounts on the base S trim.
“Instead of trying to generate throughput and increase sales and market share, they are going to cut stuff going down the assembly line,” the dealer said.
There are no good immediate solutions to this problem. If Nissan keeps building vehicles it has to aggressively discount it’s just going to lose more money. If it doesn’t, already pinched dealers are going to see market share drop.
It’s bad news.
Chinese Leaders To Automakers: Build Here, But Not Here
China has both a production edge when it comes to EVs and a technology edge. The production advantage (really, production overcapacity) is only a benefit if it can export a lot of cars. Unfortunately for China, that’s getting harder to do, as countries start to pay more attention to China’s sometimes antagonistic foreign policy (tacit support for Russia in the War in Ukraine) and its unfair subsidies, leading to tariffs in many places.
The technological and supply chain edge works just fine if you can build cars in other places and get around any tariffs, which is what automakers are trying to do.
Where, though? According to Reuters, Chinese authorities have some strong opinions about where that should be:
At a meeting held in early July, the ministry told local carmakers not to invest in India, citing a directive from the central government, “strongly advised” against investing in Russia and Turkey, and used a more gentle tone to highlight risks in building factories in Europe and Thailand, one of the people said.
It also encouraged carmakers to use overseas factories for final vehicle assembly with knock-down components exported from China to mitigate potential risks stemming from geopolitical issues, said the person.
Lol. The Russia thing is interesting, but that just makes logical sense. The Turkey-vs-China thing is also interesting. It seems like China, though, is thawing with regard to Europe and Thailand. The knock-down kit thing also works, because you still build most of the car in China and the plant requirements are way lower in whatever country you’re exporting to.
Hyundai And GM Are Going To Do… Something
Hyundai and GM just signed a big Memorandum of Understanding in order to collaborate on, uh, something. Here’s the statement:
GM and Hyundai will look for ways to leverage their complementary scale and strengths to reduce costs and bring a wider range of vehicles and technologies to customers faster.
Potential collaboration projects center on co-development and production of passenger and commercial vehicles, internal combustion engines and clean-energy, electric and hydrogen technologies.
The two leading global OEMs also will review opportunities for combined sourcing in areas such as battery raw materials, steel and other areas.
So… everything? I’ll probably write more about this later, when I understand it better, because I think it’s part of a larger trend.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
Speaking of beefs… do not get into a fight with Kendrick Lamar. You will not win. You will not outlast him. “Not Like Us” is just a nonstop anti-Drake barrage and it’s maybe the greatest, meanest, coldest diss track in hip hop’s long history of diss tracks.
The Big Question
How long does Carlos Tavares have as CEO?
Top photo: DepositPhotos / Terminator 2
Stellantis, which somehow makes money in this country, has managed to actively turn off their customer base, while simultaneously appealing to noone new. That’s not a tremendous strategy.
Maybe some competitive products in popular segments that don’t break immediately would help? Or if you don’t want to do that sort of hard work, at least lean into the heritage of the brands you paid for? Seriously, I don’t remember a time where I found the Jeep and Dodge brands to be more boring than they are now. The lot near me is a literal ocean of greyscale Compass’ and Grand Cherokees that could be crossovers for damn near any other brand. Have you been inside a Grand Cherokee lately? There’s genuinely zero Jeep rugged-ness outdoor-core vibes in there. Just a sea of black plastic. Next to those, 5 rows of black and white Hornets. And a single Pacifica that they have listed for 57k. Is this a recipe for success?
I say this as someone who would like the company to turn around, as I own a Voyager, and I desperately don’t want to own another orphaned vehicle. That happens to me a lot.
What are the manufacturers on your short list?
I usually keep an open mind when it comes to brands/manufacturers I’m willing to consider. It’s how I ended up with a Chrysler in the first place. It’s been pretty good over the year and a half I’ve had it. But I anecdotal evidence and data point to me being fairly lucky so far.
Would shop: Toyota/Honda/Subaru/Chevy/Mazda
On thin ice but would consider: Hyundai/Kia (the KiaBoyz fiasco is one of the great customer fuckings of all time)/Ford
Unlikely to consider: VW/Mitsubishi/Chrysler (I could be swayed into another Pacifica product if they manage to figure out the PHEV issues)/Jeep/Dodge
No freaking way: Nissan (the local dealers are bad, the CVTs are bad, the products are just slightly worse versions of the other Japanese manufacturers, but with Nissan stench, I just don’t see the appeal at all)
I’m down to two primary; Honda and Toyota, with Hyundai/Ka a maybe depends quality and the dealers are the stumbling blocks. I’m adverse to any German products due to serial bad experiences. Chrysler and Nissan due to atrocious quality and lousy dealers. Mazda has never built anything I could fit in although the the newer suv look like possibles. They’ve always been an afterthought to me due to their past quality issues.
I know a lot of happy people who have bought modern Mazdas. One friend states: it’s just like my old Protege, but not rotting to death after 5 years. Seriously, those 00’s Mazdas were great cars, but their propensity to die premature deaths due to corrosion was no joke.
I would buy a new Mazda MVP TOMORROW if they made one. Sadly, I can’t think of a car less likely to be resurrected.
I’ve read in a few places that they have solved the rust problem. The large guy fit is the next challenge. The final one is my dislike of suv in general, but the next car is the wife’s so I have minor influence on that choice.
This is especially sad if you think back to the mid-1990’s Chrysler. Everything they did seemed beautifully styled, a little bit daring and “out there” even if they still weren’t the most reliable. After DCX, at least Marchionne seemed to care about making better product. Now it’s all down the drain. I feel like they could turn it around still, but they need lots of new product and I mean like yesterday.
90’s Chrysler was friggin’ amazing! Shame the wrong successor CEO was named, who then sold-out to Daimler.
It’s a coin flip between him leaving and my Ram being fixed. Which means it could be tomorrow or 10 years from now. Only Stellantis logistics knows for sure (what a terrifying statement).
The company is producing over-priced, poor-quality vehicles. They’ve laid off most of the people who could have fixed the latter, and the people who remain could fix the former but won’t because it might affect their quarterly bonus payout. I can’t think of a single Stellantis vehicle I would touch with a ten foot pole right now. They’re literally all tainted with major reliability issues. That’s not exactly new for Chrysler, but somehow Stellantis has managed to move the very low bar for quality even lower.
I’ll consider buying another Jeep or Ram when Stellantis inevitably collapses under its own weight and the only two valuable brands in the entire company get sold off to someone more competent.
Nissan and Stellantis both have image/quality problems. Nissan’s “Big Altima Energy” image has sank in and hurt them with the general public. Stellantis’ brands occupy the bottom-tier rankings on just about every reliability and quality survey known to exist and have for a long time. Until they beat those, I don’t know what else they can do. Even non-enthusiast people I know of know things like “JEEP = Just Expect Every Problem” and “Big Altima Energy.”
Honestly, somehow I think Nissan’s problem is even worse. Plenty of automakers seem to survive despite poor quality reputations. But the reputation Nissan has for selling cars to people most likely to be involved in a hit and run, or do 90 along the shoulder with the rear bumper cover scraping the pavement on one side, is a stink that’s damn near impossible for a brand to get rid of.
There’s a Nissan I see around town with a smashed in front-end and a metal bull-bar. I find it daunting to be in traffic around.
I suppose this just tees-up the idea of Tavares getting DJ Jazzy Jeff’d out of Stellantis. Paging Uncle Phil!
Icahn’t tell for sure
How long does Carlos Tavares have as CEO?
it depends on Board of Directors, dunno their metrics on Tavares.
in the absence of a strategic plan, bankruptcy/receivership seems predictable, maybe they’ll let him pilot it into the ground.
the BOD will come out of that ending fine, everyone else will be screwed.
i hope i’m wrong.
BOD:
John Elkann – chair (also CEO ferrari)
Carlos Tavares – CEO
Robert Peugeot – vice chair
Henri de Castries – senior independent director
Fiona Clare Cicconi – non-executive director
Nicholas Dufourcq – non-executive director
Anne Frances Godbehere – non-executive director
Wan Ling Martello – non-executive director
Claudia Parzani – non-executive director
Benoit Ribadeau-Dumas – non-executive director
Jacques Saint-Exupery – non-executive director
looking at their CVs there’s a lot of finance/government experience, not-so-much automotive industry backgrounds.
Tavares is just another dipshit opportunistic capitalist with MBA brain rot. It’s not about the long term and it hasn’t been for a while. It’s about hoarding as much money as you can as quickly as possible then golden parachuting your way out. This is the pervasive attitude of most CEOs, shareholders, venture capitalists, etc. Get rich quick, peace out, leave someone else holding the tab.
Unfortunately it’s always the workers that wind up with the tab, while I’m sure Tavares will spend the rest of his life on a private island once he’s ousted. But anyway, he’s fucked up royally…although that was the plan all along. I’m sure our tax dollars will be used to bail them in a couple years because corporate welfare is the standard.
Nissan and Stellantis are in similarly dire straits. They have a bunch of undesirable, uncompetitive, aging products. While Stellantis’ failure seems like a pretty cut and dry case of insatiable corporate greed Nissan’s is a bit different. I think Ghosn’s less legal version of the Tavares playbook set them back a ton and can be attributed to corporate greed, but I think other things played a role as well.
It just seems like Nissan decided to shoot themselves in the dick repeatedly. They went all in on CVTs for god knows what reason. They let their luxury brand languish with the aforementioned CVTs, dated powertrains, and interiors straight out of 2005. They were way ahead of the curve on electrification and then just did…nothing at all with it.
They had some of the first mass market EVs and yet, somehow, are not competitive when it comes to BEVs today. How in the name of god and all that is holy do you fuck that up? They also had some early hybrid tech then…threw it in the trash. So they now have a grand total of 0 hybrids.
Then they got desperate during the Ghosn years, decided that implementing their “if you’ve got a pulse you’ve got a car” financing was the right move, and completely tarnished what little reputation they had left. Now everyone sees a Nissan and thinks the person is driving it because they had no other option…and they’re not necessarily wrong!
Add in every goddamn Talltima you see doing 90 on the shoulder of your local highways on a donut spare with its rear bumper duct taped on and hanging precariously and there you have it. I’m not surprised that products from the company whose business model is selling dated, unreliable cars to people with bad credit aren’t considered desirable.
If I remember right, back in 2007 Nissan begrudgingly released a hybrid version of the Nissan Altima because it was what everyone was doing at the time, but Ghosn was publicly not at all for it. He was quoted as comparing hybrids to mermaids, saying “you either get a fish, or a woman.”
Seeing as how Nissan seemed to treat hybrid technology as some sort of annoying half measure, I guess its not surprising they decided to dump it entirely around the time the Nissan leaf showed up. Too bad they ending up half-assing electric cars as well.
I think they bought into the whole “CVT all the cars” thing because they thought it would be a cheaper/easier was of getting MPG gains from their existing cars than, you know, updating their cars with new engines and stuff to make them more efficient. You know, kind of like what Subaru does. This led to where we are today with a fleet of unrefined engines driving fragile, unrefined CVTs.
To be fair, the CVTs often resulted in good EPA mpg results. I remember the ’17 Altima being the first in class to hit 37mpg highway without a hybrid, and the current gen Rogue gets 33mpg combined when everything else non-hybrid in that class is 30mpg or worse. However at least some of that has to do with the VC engine.
True enough, the Altima could hit 37 mpg on the highway in 2017 (per the EPA), but this is slightly less impressive when you consider that only a year later the 2018 Toyota Camry arrived with an all-new 2.5 liter engine that got 41 mpg on the highway and was able to do it with a conventional 8-speed automatic.
If Nissan had focused less on CVTs and spent more development dollars on pairing modern engines with high gear count transmissions, they’d be in a much better place today lineup-wise.
It was actually even earlier than that, the 2013 Altima was 27 city/38 highway, a tick better than the also-new Accord with CVT, but also better than the Camry or the also-new highly touted Ecoboost Fusion. The 2014 Rogue at 26/33 for the FWD was about 10% better than a RAV4 or CR-V, or again an Ecoboost Escape.
Nissan’s growth at the turn of the 2010s into the first half came at the same time Honda and Toyota were struggling, with older tech or cheapened products or a combination thereof. 2013-14 Nissan revamped the majority of their cars, then much-improved product from Honda and Toyota arrived and surpassed them, and then surpassed them again. Seems like the every Nissan product cycle lasted 1.5 times that of a comparable Honda or Toyota.
It isn’t merely CVTs though, Toyota and to a greater extent Honda started using CVTs too in several mainstream products a long time ago. Are they better version of the tech, sure, but it’s not the type of the transmission that’s the issue at hand.
the CVT is the absolute downfall of those Rogues.
I don’t know. The Rogue seems awfully popular.
I rented a current generation one last December and didn’t hate it as much as I thought. The audio was truly shite but the CVT was fine on highways and rural roads in AZ and NM. I don’t care enough about the rental to form an opinion on the CVT.
I have to believe the only reason they still sell them at all is the number of people that do the trade in out of warranty and have not yet realized the amount of loss they are seeing.
It is not really the weird buzzy nature of CVT’s that bothers me. it is the long term viability and as a result loss of secondary market value. The only trans with a worse reputation than an 80k mile Nissan is the Ford Power shift DCT.
I think the story is that by around 2015, the Renault/France side of the alliance forced Nissan to stop investing in new models, and during that period only models that were already in development got released.
“How long does Carlos Tavares have as CEO?”
Probably long enough for his private island fortress to be completed. Then, we’re all in trouble.
I cannot help but notice that FCA/Stellantis’ fortunes began to sink when they discontinued Viper production.
In the same way a lack of pirates is linked to the rise of global temperatures perhaps:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikaandersen/2012/03/23/true-fact-the-lack-of-pirates-is-causing-global-warming/
Wrong. Somali pirates came about and global warming kept on coming!
Eh, Somalia notwithstanding worldwide pirate attacks have dropped since 2010:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/266292/number-of-pirate-attacks-worldwide-since-2006/
The data is conclusive – the world need MOAR pirates to fight global warming!
Hmm, a fleet of Eco-Pirates who disrupt dirty-fueled shipping and force private jets to stay grounded…
Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum.
I can’t argue with this logic.
coincidence?
perhaps not
Fingers crossed that GM doesn’t start sourcing engines from H/K. They don’t need that sort of ‘sharing’.
I think both companies have a small handful of excellent ICE engines and then a whole lot of dreck. Anyway the most fruitful collaboration would be EV related because the Ultium platform and GM’s software fucking suck ass. Hyundai/Kia is way ahead of them on those fronts and their software/tech is legitimately great.
Maybe Hyundai can get a V8 out of it? A man can dream….
the Theta V6 from Hyundai seems to be superior to the 3.6 GM motor in most instances. GM is still on my no thank you list for any LT v8 with AFM/DFM, so that leaves only a select few to chose from.
Both are going the way of the sub 2 liter turbo motors though and I hear a lot more complaints about the 1.4/1.5 turbo motors from GM, which I think are the bastard children of the MG/Opel/China group. Maybe Hyundai learned their lessons form the 2.0 Turbo motors they got sued for? Maybe Not?
Hyundai has a really high tech 1.6T with continuously variable everything (valve lift, timing & duration) that they use in the Tucson and Carnival Hybrid.
GM lacks engines in the ~180hp class, as they don’t have an up to date N/A 2.5L and are stuck using a pretty old 1.5T in the Equinox that’s a bit down on power now. That Smartstream 1.6T would be a pretty good replacement for it, hybrid or not.
Just when i think H/K has moved past their engine problems, I hear about more recalls/investigations. Even their latest Gen motors built into the 2020s, now that they are getting miles on them, are appearing to still not be greatly reliable long term.
Stellantis has a pricing problem. The sticker price on almost all of their stuff is way too high; hence why when you actually get into a dealer, they have larger stacks of cash on the hood than most of the competition. Odd how that stack of cash works out to make the Stallantis product priced inline with the competition. I think their goal of increasing prices is the primary reason they are getting smoked right now. Most of their products are actually pretty decent, they just price them too high right out of the gate. Like, who the hell thought it was a good idea to list the Wagoneer with a starting price 10% higher than a Tahoe, the segment leader by far?
Also, some of their drivetrains are outright ancient. The Pentastar powers like half of Stellantis’ vehicles here in the US; why the hell are you still using a 14 year old engine Stellantis? It’s last major update was almost 9 years ago. It’s not a bad engine, but the competition has now well passed it. Who the hell wants to pay $60k for a Grand Cherokee with a now pretty mediocre Pentastar when you can go to BMW and for the same money get an X5 with gods own B58? The Pacifica is getting old, how has the PHEV not been substantially updated or improved in 7+ years? PHEVs are on fire, update that shit.
I need this drilled into the people who still want the Hemi too. That engine is even older, with no real update. Even the Pentastar (3.6) got an update in 2016.
True, the 5.7 liter Hemi got a bump in horsepower from around 330 to around 370 in like 2006 and has essentially gone unchanged ever since. The Pentastar meanwhile was an all-new design that debuted in 2011.
So if any shade should be thrown for sticking with old engines for so long, the 5.7 is the most deserving. It wasn’t a particularly modern design when it came out and they have done little to improve it since.
That’s the reason I went with the 5.7 when I bought my Grand Cherokee. Older stuff seems easier for me to work on. It’s far from efficient, but that’s fine. I’ll trade efficiency for ease of repair.
It was new in 2003, but even with the VVT update, it got left behind quickly. The only Hemi’s that were advanced were the Redeye/Demon Hemi’s, and by extension, the Hellcat. The 392 made too little horsepower over the LT1 for its iron block to try and overcome, and the 5.0 has been eating its lunch since like 2017.
Those engines aren’t competitive, and the work you’ll likely to do to them compared to the Pentastar even, let alone any other V8, makes them bottom tier. People should’ve been happy it got dropped.
Because like the 3.8 GM v6 and the old 4.0 AMC straight six, the Pentastar is reliable enough to have a reputation. Sure the bastardized Alfa turbo versions nearly kills that, but too few understand they used it as the basis.
the real question is when they were using the older motors and the fiat multi-airs, how did they not become the darlings of the Stellantis world?
Alfa’s 2.9TT has nothing to do with the Pentastar, that’s a Ferrari 3.9TT with 2 less cylinders. Maserati got the twin-turbo version of the Pentastar, from Ferrari.
Anywho, Stellantis has been Euro-centric since it was PSA, and Fiat only gave CDJR those 5~ish years of heavy backing because they wanted as much profit as possible to rebuild Alfa. Since the Agnelli family and Elkann have such a voice in the company, they want Europe to succeed. They don’t like America, for whatever reason.
For their non-luxury cars, the Pentastar V6 is acceptable, as most other N/A V6s in mainstream cars are also really ancient (Nissan VQ, Ford 3.3L, Hyundai Lambda, Honda J, etc), as manufacturers who want to update that ~270-300hp class of engine go for a high displacement 4-cylinder turbo.
Stellantis has the modular Hurricane series with a ~270hp 2.0T, which I don’t like as a replacement for the Pentastar since it’s too small as all competitors are using ~2.4T; that being said, they’re using an overboosted 3.0T to compete with a 3.5TT (ecoboost) and a 6.2L V8.
In their situation, I’d design a 2.5T 5-cylinder version of the Hurricane and take advantage of the alleged modularity, and end up with something with around 270hp that’s not overstressed.
Not just their drivetrains, it’s most of their vehicles.
Who could have seen this coming? They let the last generation Ram go 10 years before they came out with a new generation. Same with the Grand Cherokee. They let the Wrangler go 11 years. The current Wrangler is seven years old!
These are the “bread and butter” vehicles they make, and yet it takes them twice as long to release a new generation than the competition.
And I didn’t even mention the Charger/Challenger/300, because those were freaking unicorns they were able to make them feel uptodate despite being even older!
I would take a Pentastar for the port injection alone. (And then probably regret it thanks to all the plastic parts — but then again, everyone is using plastic engine parts now.)
Concept of a plan, eh?
Right…
And Taylor Swift is the Queen of France.
My dogs can bullshit better than loser #45.
Now go away, and stop eating my pets.
Good for you.
How does Stellantis even recover from this? The one brand that has any real equity is Jeep and they seem to be running that into the ground. Who is really going to pay 100K for a Grand Wagoneer when the Escalade or Navigator exists? No Gladiator Hybrid and no EV Wrangler. No word on the Ramcharger and the rest of the lineup seems to be something straight from 2005. How do the dealers even move this stuff? This really seems like a Stellantis death spiral. When your cash cow has dried up, you’re screwed.
The only two full size trucks I’d consider are the F-150 Hybrid (assuming Ford can improve their defect ratings (I don’t call it quality ratings once it reaches a certain point)) and the Ramcharger.
For the Ram, I’d wait until 3rd MY and I’d like to hear they improved the Pentastar. I know a mechanic that really likes the Pentastar. He says they are great engines with regular maintenance of oil changes and camshaft replacements. Of course he is a mechanic so cam replacements for him is in a different wrenching level than for most other driveway (not mechanics) mechanics.
What engine should ever require regular CAMSHAFT replacement?!? Timing belts sure, and I can accept timing chain tensioners. Wasn’t this an issue with the early Chevy/GM 305?
305’s were way before timing chain tensioners. the issue back then was the plastic timing gear teeth. Planned obsolescence in the name of a few DB of quiet while running.
Thanks – I recalled hearing of timing issues on these but could not recall detail. Timing components on most pushrod engines last nearly forever. So they used plastic/phenolic gearing and not a chain set? I believe the Ford 300 I6 used phenolic gears with no problem.
Ford’s 300 used gear to gear with no chain at all, similar to the AMC straight six which became the 4.0. Probably a good deal of the reason for the perceived durability of those engines. But yeah sometime in the 60’s the gear teeth on the GM timing chain/sprocket set up became a nylon coated overmold. the thing most people do during a cam swap is to replace the stock stuff with double roller chains. the real trick thing at one time was to put a gear drive in. this put a couple smaller gears in between the sprockets. They were noisy but suggested a built motor to most.
Gotcha – the Ford 300 was true gear drive, no issue. GM tried using plastic teeth on a traditional timing chain system with predicable results.
Well it’s here, the moment Stellantis should have prepared for. Instead they have an aging/discontinued/thin portfolio for every brand in what should be their most profitable market. Actually that’s not fair, one person at Stellantis did prepare for this. Tavares got his big pay raise while the numbers still looked ok ahead of this impending shitstorm, so obviously he is at least a little capable of looking ahead.
They have been preparing for this since the last bankruptcy. This time they can’t jump on the company jet and drop in on the nice daddy bank in Washington for a bailout.
While waiting at my local Dodge dealership yesterday for state inspection the salesmen were commiserating with me about the high cost of their own products, and that there’s hardly any corporate incentives available. The Durango R/T I bought new in 2011 now stickers for $20,000+ more in 2024. They are also concerned about the lack of a V8 also, it’s not just us enthusiasts. I think they fear losing a huge chunk of their customers.
2011 Grand Cherokee owner with the 5.7. Can’t get anything but the v6 in any GCs at all anymore.
It’s ridiculous given the price of the Grand Cherokee. It’s not like the Pentastar is bad; it’s not, it’s a good engine. But you need something better after a few trim levels. I just want to know who these dummies are that are buying some $65k Overland trim and it’s still got the basic V6 that the base model has.
I know it won’t fit and requires re-engineering but I cannot understand why they aren’t putting something like the Hurricane straight six in it that’s in their trucks and Wagoneers. It’s unbelievable there’s not any different engine options now. Complete and utter mismanagement.
The fact they released a new model and a new engine so close to each other, while the new model no longer has a “big” engine and the new engine is a replacement for the “big” engine… and they don’t fit together, is just further evidence how incompetent leadership is in Stellantis right now.
Like someone higher up should have seen these projects coming down the rails and said stuff like, “Hey, make sure the new Grand Cherokee is designed for some engine flexibility here. There’s a new engine being developed to replace the V8–uhh yeah, the V8 that we are discontinuing–and it’d be swell if we could throw it in the GC.”
It’s BS. And in 2011 you could spec a GC with the 5.7 at the third lowest trim (Laredo X). I agree that the Pentastar isn’t a terrible engine, but like you say if I’m spending that much money I want more than the base engine.
Side note – extremely happy with the 5.7, even though it has some quirks (HVAC vent system is finicky with plastic gears and I absolutely hated the location of the starter when I had to change it)
Good thing Stellantis makes heavy duty Rams to haul all the corncobs happening with management.
Stellantis is looking a lot like Mitsubishi, with fewer competent models in the market and just surviving. People is paying more attention of what are they going to buy now that will last longer since everything got more expensive, why to pay the same when you can walk to another brand and get more from your money? CDJR dealers are awful, I only got the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV because was the only available with immediate delivery and not a crazy wait time like Toyota.
Their only vehicles “worth” looking into are +$50k and anything cheaper is either gone, has been on the market so long or just hasn’t keep up with the competition.
Ford has the Bronco Sport, Escape, Maverick in the same price range satisfying the same type of customer, I see them everywhere. Stellantis has the Compass, same bones from 2018, and Hornet with bad reviews.
Chevy has the Trax, TrailBlazer, Equinox, Blazer, not counting the GMC or Buick models. Add the EV versions. All of them with good reviews, cheap leases, available in their lots.
Stellantis killed their sedans but also their affordable SUVs in US and Canada.
it is especially bad considering the economic down turn we are currently in.
The realities of being a Franco-Italian conglomerate with legacy North American operations hit home. The French side is making it funky but not the funky that gets Americans and Canadians into dealers. The Italian side had the good sense to let the American operations a bit of leash to do what makes sense for North American tastes.
I see a bailout request in the near future. Third time’s the charm?
I miss Sergio Marchionne so very, very much…
Trust me, you’re not the only one.
Holy shit, is it ever upper management’s responsibility for ANYTHING?
The dealers are mad, the customers are mad, the workers are mad, all pointing at the upper leadership and somehow “leadership” is still here sending out these pussy-ass “nuh uh stop bullying me” responses.
Yet the vulture capitalists and their apologists will say that CEO pay being 300+ times average worker pay is absolutely necessary or the corporations would be in trouble because anyone willing to work for just a few million dollars a year could not be good. Such lying garbage.
I’d happily do Tavares’ job for $1,000,000 a year and a Hellcat company car. Hell, I might even be an improvement, and that’s not because I’m good at this shit….
Last year Tavares made over 500x median worker pay, and he still had people in the comments defending his worth (“they have a lot of meetings and have to stay in hotels!”).
I was just explaining this exact thing to my son last night, also defending his worth (from their perspective, NOT mine). Basically (as it’s been said here before):
“If I am not in the job getting paid that amount, someone else will by. It may as well be me.”
The investors are happy until they are not. When will they finally NOT be, is my question?
No, they get the golden parachute even as the Hindenburg Burns.
I’m just waiting for Carlos Tavares to announce that Dodge is going to restart production of the Journey and wonder why people don’t like him.
They’d have an affordable model again at least. Trying to sell Wagoneers and Hornets for luxury/premium doesn’t work if you’re a budget brand with questionable build quality.
At this point if they took the Chrysler pacifca and Journey’d it up a bit it would certainly be a better thing than the Hornet. It would likely sell better as well.
The irony of that statement from Stellantis is completely lost on the people writing it. Dealers are resorting to public statements since corporate isn’t listening to their issues, and the Corporate response is “Nuh-Uh! don’t be mean!”. Sales may be up month on month but does that *really* count if a chunk of that is left-over 2023 models that have been rotting on lots for nearly a year, incentivized into finally being compelling?
We all know Rams average price is too high to be competitive, and demand will decrease with the 2025 Hurricane-Only engine lineup. Not to mention their new models like the Hornet and Wagoneer are absolute flops. I give Tavares 2 annual financial releases at most, enough to show a steady, real, indisputable decrease, to finally be booted, even if we can all see it already.
The thing I love about Stellantis’ public response is you can TASTE how upset they are.
Gosh just kiss already
I have genuinely zero clue as to why any mainstream manufacturer is still investing in any Hydrogen development. The most reasonable is the Nikolas of the world with a pure long-haul trucking focus. Passenger Hydrogen will not happen. Invest in Bio-fuel and renewable gasoline production, it’ll be far greener than Hydrogen will ever be, and will actually make an impact.
Actually larger hydrocarbon biofuels and ‘renewable’ gas are both automatically and irrevocably less efficient and more polluting than hydrogen production and use. Just a simple chemistry problem there. Unavoidably so.
Now maybe we as a society decide that the efficiency benefits are not worth the storage hassle, which seems to be the concensus so far, and fair enough.
Renewable hydrocarbons make the energy loss from battery storage look straight up magical in comparison. All of those options only make sense if one fuel source is 3-5x cheaper per unit energy than alternatives. Which historically has often, but not always been the case.
My understanding of Hydrogen has always been based around a few factors, primarily being that 1- Hydrogen is inherently energy inefficient to manufacture and use as a fuel source, 2- that most Hydrogen in the world is not actually very environmentally friendly in that Green hydrogen is not the vast majority, and gray/brown hydrogen is quite bad, and 3- the downsides and complexities of Hydrogen fuel cell technology and infrastructure are such that price parity will never practically materialize, making it a dead end for passenger cars.
Now, much of that may be wrong and I’m open to learning, but I want to establish my baseline. My view for a while has been that being able to generate gasoline from either waste products or renewable sources, especially those that utilized captured carbon, will be a much greater net benefit as they can be directly implemented into existing infrastructure, and the investment can be well spent on developing manufacturing technology instead. While yes there will be a net increase in emissions from most vehicles due to the non-carbon byproducts of emissions, it’ll still be a net-positive, while Hydrogen has no practical future.
I see the desire for an impact of Hydrogen as admirable, but not pragmatic. With that in mind the time and resources, both human and environmental, being dedicated to Hydrogen passenger vehicles are simply needless, when a more promising path could be accelerated with the same resources. Again, happy to be proven wrong or taught new information, but that’s just where I’m currently at.
Hydrogen can be produced from waste biomass with carbon capture that results in carbon negative hydrogen. This means the entire production process is removing CO2 from the atmosphere.
I have no doubt about that, it certainly can be done. My issue is that it currently is not, and the technology is not mature enough (not even close) to scale this up to a level that could facilitate a transition away from gasoline, not to mention the market is continuing to speak loudly that passenger cars powered by hydrogen are not the way forward. Net Carbon Negative Hydrogen is a great thing and will certainly have great uses outside of passenger car transport.
My concern is its a bit of chicken and egg, in that nobody will buy hydrogen cars without infrastructure, and infrastructure will not be built without a market. EVs get a pass widely because you CAN charge at home, and many do, meaning it’s adoption has been feasible and growing as the charging infrastructure builds. At this point in time there is simply far too much momentum behind EVs and Hybrids to be dethroned without an amount of money an order of magnitude or two higher than whats being spent on EV R&D and Infrastructure.
The issue with both hydrogen and batteries is energy density.
Yes, they are more efficient in the strict sense of the chemical reactions that produce energy, but they are not space efficient or (for batteries) weight efficient.
Liquid fuels are easy to transport, can use existing infrastructure, compact, and dense. These are advantages that should not be taken lightly, especially for larger and heavier vehicles.
That’s why I explicitly said the storage hassle. I agree with the commentary.
Actually larger hydrocarbon biofuels and ‘renewable’ gas are both automatically and irrevocably less efficient and more polluting than hydrogen production and use. Just a simple chemistry problem there. Unavoidably so.
What?
Renewable gas is made from decaying garbage, gas that has been and will be made as long as decaying biomatter exists regardless of whether you use it or not. That gas burned into CO2 is far less of a GHG than as CH4.
How is that less efficient or more polluting?
It is less polluting and more efficient to convert the biomatter into lower hydrocarbons or hydrogen itself than to convert into octane
You seem to be confusing gas with gasoline. “Gas” in this context is natural gas, primarily methane which with a chemical formula of CH4 is as “low” as hydrocarbons can possibly get.
If you indeed think converting natural gas into hydrogen is more efficient than using it directly, well I’m going to need to see your work. Show me the math that works out better than simply feeding the gas directly in a 40-50% internal combustion/gas turbine engine or in a 60% TE NGFC.
Efficiency while reaching 95% carbon capture is what is important. The new hydrogen production facilities under construction are going to be using a partial oxidation process that makes this much simpler because there is no nitrogen gas mixed with carbon dioxide to separate out at the end.
So lets see the math.
How long does Carlos Tavares have as CEO?
Not as long as it will take to move those 80 bajillion Hornets laying around.
Someone call the exterminator!