Through the 1990s and early 2000s, Ford phased out its pushrod small-block V8s in favor of the Modular engines, a family of V8 and V10 engines sharing common parts. Honing in on the V8s, Ford offered production versions in 4.6 or 5.4-liter displacements, with two-, three-, or four-valve heads prior to launching the Coyote. As you can imagine, the top-dog 5.4-liter engine with four-valve heads was reserved for performance flagships. We’re talking about the Mustang SVT Cobra R, the Shelby GT500, the Ford GT, and the … Lincoln Navigator? Hang on a second.
Could you drop the engine from a Lincoln Navigator into an older Mustang and go quickly? Well, people have done just that, although the motor itself is going to need a few changes to both fit under the hood of a Mustang and make some seriously solid horsepower.
Still, if you want an interesting all-Ford way of making an older overhead-cam Mustang go fast on a reasonable budget and don’t want to just drop a Windsor V8 in it, a Lincoln Navigator engine swap could be one enticing solution. Hell, it can even make 1,000 horsepower with boost. How’s that for bang for the buck?
An Unlikely Donor
Alright, so the 1999 to 2004 Navigator did feature a 5.4-liter four-valve V8, but it wasn’t the same as the one in the Ford GT. With an iron block and natural aspiration, it actually shared more in common with the engine in the 2000 Mustang SVT Cobra R than anything else. Same iron block, same forged steel crankshaft. The differences kick in with pretty much everything that’s bolted on, but the flipside is that while an SVT Cobra R engine is expensive, it’s pretty easy to find a good four-valve 5.4-liter Navigator V8 in a junkyard for peanuts. Now, keep in mind that for 2002, the block casting changed to one with additional ribbing for strength and quietness, and if you’re looking to make big power, that’s probably the one you’re looking for.
Either way, the Navigator variant of this V8 cranked out 300 horsepower and 355 lb.-ft. of torque bone stock. That’s on par with what you’d get out of a three-valve 4.6-liter mod motor and a handy upgrade over the 260 horsepower and 302 lb.-ft. of torque that a two-valve 4.6-liter New Edge Mustang GT could kick out with Ford’s Performance Improved cylinder heads and intake manifold. However, thanks to the added displacement of the 5.4-liter V8 and the flow of four-valve heads, handy individuals can make this engine go a whole lot further than that.
From The Junkyard To The Drag Strip
Alright, let’s say you’re looking to make some fairly serious power from a junkyard 5.4-liter four-valve Navigator V8. Well, if you’re interested in digging deep, the first thing you’re gonna want to do is strip the engine down and buy some new pistons and rods. See, the stock connecting rods are the weak point on this engine, and if you’re tearing it down that far, you might as well bump the compression ratio up from the stock 9.0:1 to something spicy, like 10:1. A set of forged H-beam rods and flat-top pistons will run you in the neighborhood of $1,500 once you factor in all the hardware, but that’s cheaper than ventilating a block.
The stock Navigator cylinder heads are actually quite good, and with a port and polish, will handle just about everything you throw at them. However, you will want a quartet of aftermarket camshafts, and that’s where things get expensive. Something like Modular Head Shop’s Stage 2 camshafts can be run with stock valve springs and offer 0.425 inches of lift on both sides, 226 duration on the intake side and 222 duration on the exhaust side, but they’ll run you $1,799.
Now, for the final big piece, a new intake manifold. See, the Navigator V8 came with a tall cross-ram manifold that just doesn’t fit under the hood of most cars. However, performance solutions exist, including those from Ford. If you’re lucky surfing the second-hand market and want a sweet showpiece, you can pick up a sweet intake manifold from a 2003-onwards Falcon XR8. Not only will it say “Boss” on it, which is cool as hell, it should fit under the hood of a Crown Victoria or Mustang. However, if you’re looking to stick to a budget, MMR has an adapter set that’ll let you bolt a stock five-liter Coyote intake manifold onto a 5.4-liter four-valve motor. It lists for $189.99, and a Boss 302 intake manifold will run you $264.99 brand new from LMR. Add in a big-bore throttle body and bam.
Of course, while you’re in there, you’re going to want to replace all the common consumables that can wear out on a high-mileage engine. A new timing set, new timing cover, cylinder head, oil pan, and valve cover gaskets, to name a few. Mustang Cobra headers and a Mustang oil pan will also be necessary for clearance. If you’re hooking this motor up to a manual transmission, you’ll also need a pilot bearing, and a flywheel, and a clutch to handle the torque, and the list goes on. If you do all the work yourself and source a junkyard motor, expect to spend in the neighborhood of $7,500 to complete this engine build with some serious power mods. Not super cheap, but still thousands of dollars less than a five-liter Coyote V8 crate motor, and a four-valve 5.4-liter motor will be a bit simpler to tune. No variable cam timing, for example, and you likely won’t even need aftermarket engine management if you’re dropping into a Mustang of the era. Plus, these engines with forged rods and pistons are known to be good for four-digit horsepower once you add boost, and that’s where things get really spicy.
A few years ago, dyno legend Richard Holdener threw together a fairly similar package, added twin 67-mm turbochargers and fueling, and hit just over 1,000 horsepower on a reasonable 18 psi. Now that’s some serious jam, especially once you consider that fairly flat torque curve. This is a junkyard Ford motor build that could really hurt some feelings at the drag strip.
The Original Coyote?
While building a 5.4-liter four-valve V8 isn’t especially common in the era of the Coyote V8, it’s an engine steeped in tradition. People have been doing this swap for years, and some of the best bang for the buck is dropping one of these motor builds into a dirt-cheap V6 fourth-generation or early fifth-generation Mustang. The end result is a fast and unique period-correct Ford that won’t cost an absolute fortune to build, provided you’re willing to get greasy and do it yourself.
It’s an engine that sounds damn good, is a little left-field by today’s standards, offers a ton of streetability, and can be built from mild to wild. Just check out this full-on 5.4-liter four-valve Fox Mustang drag car pulling the front tires. How cool is that?
(Photo credits: Lincoln, YouTube/Victor Montero, Cars & Bids, LMR)
Support our mission of championing car culture by becoming an Official Autopian Member.
-
Some Geniuses Are Putting New Acura Headlights Into Old Cars And It Looks Freaking Sweet
-
Here’s Why Geniuses Are Swapping BMW Transmissions Into Everything From Muscle Cars To S2000s
-
Some Geniuses Are Swapping Honda CR-V Parts Into Civics And Going Crazy Fast
-
Some Geniuses Have Figured Out That A Crapload Of Audi Engines Bolt Right Up To Porsche Boxster Transmissions Including A V8
-
Some Geniuses Are Turning Toyota Pickups Into The Perfect Diesel Trucks By Using Refrigerator Engines
Got a hot tip? Send it to us here. Or check out the stories on our homepage.
“Now, keep in mind that for 2002, the block casting changed to one with additional ribbing for strength and quietness *and her pleasure*, and if…”
My correction is in asterisks
what do we call modern ‘old school’ wrenching?
Pretty cool, same engine footprint, 13% more displacement for nice torque increase, keeps the blue oval engine, and beefy cast block to take abuse.
That said I see why the LS is so popular. Smaller, cheap to acquire & modify and make power. 450whp 6.0 for 1/2 the cost is quite the temptation
I have owned a New Edge since 2011. The 5.4L 4v swap are an option, but due to the heavy iron block I see the majority of people who are trying to do a budget 4v swap or replace their blown up 4v choosing to go with the Lincoln Aviator’s aluminum 4.6L. Honestly with boost it isn’t a significant difference between the 4.6L and 5.4L in terms of performance so the weight savings become a very significant advantage at that point. With the growing availability and popularity of the Coyotes and the aging of the 4.6L/5.4L platforms those are really the new king of the swap world. With that said, were the 4.6L 4v in my Mach 1 to ever let go my plan would be to find another aluminum block 4.6L to build versus the Coyote swap even if it isn’t the most practical choice. Given that my car is sitting on the ragged edge of what the engine can handle I am hoping to have the bottom end built before it becomes an issue.
Hmm. An “NA” motor with nitrous and twin turbos. Uh…
Wow, there are way more Geniuses in the world than I realized. I do love hearing about parts swapping, but the Genius thing is a bit of a stretch. I’ve been doing mix-n-match with parts on everything I own for decades. Can you please notify my wife that in fact, I am not an idiot, I’m an under appreciated Genius.
Agreed. Couldn’t tell if “genius” was used with sarcasm or not in this whole series. I mean, it’s somewhat clever, ambitious even, but certainly not intelligent.
I just wanted to say I’m really getting a kick out of this “geniuses” gag y’all have going on. Like, seriously loling.
I’m really liking these spotlights that have been coming out. I always get a kick out of the ingenuity of people wanting to go faster
I look at these power numbers, and indeed the power numbers for any stock new Mustang. And then I think back to last night, when I was looking at one of my C&D issues from 1985 when they had an article on the 1986 GT and it’s “whopping 210hp” – those were some times! And the crackling…7.5-second 0-60 times from the Mustang GT and IROC Z. Granted, that was a big step up from 175, but now Honda Accords have more than that.
IIRC, the standard for horsepower changed in the early aughts, also. I was working at a dealership, and I saw that the next model year ‘lost’ horsepower, but it was the same everything about the vehicle.
So, the ‘whopping 210hp’ of yesteryear is more like the ‘meh 198hp’ of today.
Or just really go left field and do all of that work and keep it in the Navi and knock some peoples socks off. Throw them for a really big loop
Manual swap and blow off valve for maximum joy and pshhhhh
I have an old coworker who modified an ON3 turbo kit for a Mustang to fit on his 2v 5.4L Expedition, and then did it again in a 5.4L F-250 and an E-250.
I wonder if one of these would bolt right in to my 98 Continental? It already has the 4v 4.6. I would guess the FWD layout would cause issues.
Not easily
Area Man asks:
Can I put this in a Volvo wagon?
With a welder and determination anything is possible
How cool is that?
Meh. It’d be actual “genius” if those engines used gasoline more efficiently.
Yeah, but who out here is modding a 20 year old Mustang with fuel economy on the mind?
So mod something else. I think 100 mpg is a lot more useful than 1000 hp to most folks. I’m sure there are other autopians *cough* toecutter *cough* who would be interested in such content.
Magic beans are the answer.
Of course 100mpg is more useful than 1000hp to most folks, that’s why most folks drive cars which are closer to achieving 100mpg than they are to achieving 1000hp.
But for the few folks who are gearheads and speed enthusiasts, it’s pretty cool that 1000hp cars can exist.
What point are you trying to make? I don’t understand. Yes, hypermiling is cool. No, this isn’t hypermiling. No, people hotrodding Mustangs does not detract from people hypermiling.
“most folks drive cars which are closer to achieving 100mpg than they are to achieving 1000hp.”
Is that so? The average car gets 24.4 mpg, the average light truck/van 17.8.
https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10310
I think it’s a lot easier to mod a 500 hp engine to 1000 hp than mod a 50 mpg car for 100 mpg.
“But for the few folks who are gearheads and speed enthusiasts, it’s pretty cool that 1000hp cars can exist”
Is it? I don’t see why. Outside of a specialized racecourse you can’t use that extra power anywhere safely (much less legally) and the news is full of examples of idiot “speed enthusiasts” who do so unsafely, sometimes lethally. That is very much not cool.
These mods also make the car burn more gas, make more noise and pollute more than it did before (those numbers are never mentioned in these stories) which are not cool to anyone but oil companies and smog enthusiasts. Not a big deal if it’s a driveway parked, track only toy but it is a big deal when those aforementioned idiot “speed enthusiasts” make that noise and blow that smoke on public streets.
“No, people hotrodding Mustangs does not detract from people hypermiling”.
It does when those hot rods are used to speed on public roads which they too often are. That induces others to speed as well “for safety” which detracts hypermilers who need to drive the speed limit or below.
“I think it’s a lot easier to mod a 500 hp engine to 1000 hp than mod a 50 mpg car for 100 mpg.”
They are both exercises in decreasing marginal return, but, while a thousand horsepower may be ‘easier’, it isn’t ‘easy.’ I am not tripping over 1khp cars every time I walk out of my house. Where I live, I trip over Teslas, Toyotas, and Big 3 pickup trucks. What is it like where you are? I ask because ‘all politics are local’ is a bias we might both be sharing.
I will also say this: every vehicle I have modded for power has also gotten better mpg when I keep my foot out of it. And, by ‘better’ I mean Cruise control on a highway gets better mpg with a CAI, free-flowing exhaust, and mild turbo than the same vehicle with none of those things.’ Making big power is really a search for efficiency gains.
Teslas, Toyotas, and definitely Big 3 pickup trucks are not 100 mpg gassers so I’m not sure why they are brought up here.
“I will also say this: every vehicle I have modded for power has also gotten better mpg when I keep my foot out of it.”
So why aren’t every auto manufacturer on the planet after you for your secrets? Do you have to undo all those mods at inspection time?
VW is not the best role model in the search for efficiency.
I brought them up to anecdotally point out that I don’t live in a world of 1khp cars that I have to worry about. My guess is you don’t either.
As to your question about people going after my secrets…. these aren’t secrets.
I feel like I may be mansplaining here, but the reason that non-exotics don’t get high-dollar aftermarket parts as OE is because every car is a compromise of cost, regulation, and performance designed to maximize profit (not revenue). As CAFE standards get tighter and tighter, manufacturers are chasing ever-decreasing marginal returns to their variable inputs while still trying to make money on the vehicle.
Bolt-on mods do not ‘add horsepower’; they decrease parasitic power loss. Modern ECUs know that, and adjust fuel consumption downward for steady state loop operation. What we get from the factory is ‘good enough’ in all the compromise categories
Lastly, as any enthusiast would tell you, a $300 CAI and $800 cat-back will need to be driven a LONG time to break even. At $3.50 a gallon and 35 MPG (because in this scenario I am modding an econobox) getting an additional MPG is pretty common, but 2 is very doable, so let’s say now 37MPG. I was at 10 cents a mile, now I am at 9.45 cents a mile, so I save $5.68 over 1,050 miles of driving. I would need to do that 193.66 times to break even, which is *checks notes* 203,345.07 miles.
I don’t want you to feel bad if you don’t have a working knowledge of macro- and micro-economic theory, fluid dynamics, thermal dynamics, mechanical engineering, and business theory. It isn’t the biggest Venn diagram in the world.
I guess I don’t get your angle. I may yet, and will understand your point of view, but, right now, you just sound angry to me.
“I brought them up to anecdotally point out that I don’t live in a world of 1khp cars that I have to worry about.”
We have plenty enough to worry about from idiots in regular cars without 1000 hp cars too.
“As CAFE standards get tighter and tighter, manufacturers are chasing ever-decreasing marginal returns to their variable inputs while still trying to make money on the vehicle.”
Right, something has to give. In this case of too many hot rodders more power and just maybe better fuel efficiency comes at the expense of emissions and noise which is not cool outside of a track. On track is fine.
For me I rather see streetable performance mods that meet or exceed CARB standards, improve fuel economy and power WITHOUT pissing off the neighborhood. Lets see modders taking advantage of decades of automotive progress by adding a cleaner, more powerful drive train (along with all the emissions and noise dampening equipment) to an older car with a lighter chassis. Something like a LS swapped E30 357 Magnum GMW as long as it meets the tighter emissions and noise levels of either the chassis or the donor vehicle. Such a vehicle will be less safe than a modern car but that means the modded has that much more motivation to use that power safely.
“We have plenty enough to worry about from idiots in regular cars without 1000 hp cars too.”
I can’t decide if this is deflection or hasty generalization. If it is deflection, then your problem is with people that don’t drive like you, I guess, because you are okay with OTHER mods, as long as they act in your very prescriptive worldview.
As hasty generalization, you are actively ignoring or having cognitive dissonance for all the miles that are driven without incident.
Your logic in the last sentence doesn’t preclude 1khp, which is interesting, because you are also apparently okay with it being ‘less safe than a modern car.’ That extra risk is mitigated because person has more motivation to use it safely? But we already have ~”idiots with less thank 1khp to worry about.” So, if you buy horsepower off the lot, you are more likely to be an idiot than someone who modifies for power….
Maybe.
Regardless, I hope you find peace in your slice of Autopia. It looks like we disagree on a few things and like vehicles for widely disparate reasons, which is fine.
Good day, sir.
My point was that it doesn’t take a “genius” to make a 1000 HP engine. And no, I don’t see the point in it unless its a dedicated track car since you can’t even legally use all the stock power that car made anywhere but a track.
My issue with such mods is they often worsen the emissions, noise etc. Which IMO is NOT cool but I can tolerate it for a track only car, not for a street car.
OTOH If someone takes an old car that is already comparatively unsafe, dirty and noisy compared to a modern car and puts in a modern drive train that not only increases power (within reason) but reduces emissions and noise that’s an overall win in my book. No it’s not as safe as a modern car but they know the car is comparatively dangerous. If they are willing to accept that risk and the consequences of that risk that’s OK by me.
As hasty generalization, you are actively ignoring or having cognitive dissonance for all the miles that are driven without incident.
It’s a matter of risk – sure everything is fine…until its not. If you’re speeding you have a much greater chance of not only getting into a wreck but increasing the consequences of that wreck for yourself and for others. If it was just the speeder (and the insurance company) that ran the risk that would be one thing but it’s not. Chances are someone else is going to suffer worse.
Wow, yes, you actually just hate speed, power, and hot rods. You can have your opinions, but be aware that there are 0 other people in the Autopian comments here who agree with you, Mr. “I don’t see why horsepower is cool.” Are you a car enthusiast at all?
You may not be able to use 1000hp safely on the street, but you can certainly safely use more than the stock 300hp, so no, hotrodding isn’t totally pointless….. Of course not every modified car has 1000hp lol
24.4mpg is 24.4% of the way to achieving 100mpg. Now that I have looked it up, it seems that the average car in the US has almost exactly 250hp as of lately, which is a weirdly similar 25% of 1000hp. Maybe Americans really do value horsepower and fuel economy on completely equal grounds, which isn’t surprising at all now that I say that.
“I don’t see why horsepower is cool.” Are you a car enthusiast at all?”
This may come as a shock to you: One CAN be an enthusiast of the other aspects of cars than horsepower. Agility, low NVH, utility, fuel efficiency, etc. Horsepower? Meh. All you REALLY need is enough to go the speed limit and in most cars 100hp is already overkill for that.
“You may not be able to use 1000hp safely on the street, but you can certainly safely use more than the stock 300hp”
LOL I think Officer Friendly, Judge Hardcase and perhaps Charles Darwin will say otherwise should you do that. Their opinions carry a lot more weight than yours or mine. As I said there are plenty of idiot speed enthusiasts who have ran afoul of at least one of these opinions even with stock HP.
“24.4mpg is 24.4% of the way to achieving 100mpg.”
Not how that works but you do you.
I think you may have gotten lost on the way to r/fuckcars. Either way, you seem to be in the wrong place. This is not something your average commuter is doing, this is for people who are specifically seeking out this sort of performance. I can assure you that your average person doing dumb things on the street is not buying a 20 year old Mustang to do it, they are getting the newer ones and doing little if anything to them. It is actually exceedingly rare that an incident occurs involving a heavily modified car since it takes a great deal of knowledge, patience, money, and time to reach that point versus buying a 400-500hp car off the lot and driving it straight to Cars and Coffee. Even in the community of people who are Mustang/New Edge enthusiasts 500whp+ is fairly rare.
No I’m in the right place. Cars are more than horsepower.
“I can assure you that your average person doing dumb things on the street is not buying a 20 year old Mustang to do it, they are getting the newer ones and doing little if anything to them.”
Somehow I don’t feel assured. To my eyes it looks like the average person doing dumb things on the street does those dumb things in whatever they happen to be in whether it be new or old.
They are certainly more than horsepower, but since you’re targeting all modified cars as a blanket statement I am responding with the same energy.
I agree, the average person doing dumb things IS doing it in whatever they can afford. Which is also why it is not common for people in heavily modified cars that they have sunk a lot of time and energy into to them to be willing to risk damaging or destroying them outside of the purpose they are targeted to. That is reserved for people who bought a sporty car, but didn’t realize it doesn’t come with the ability to utilize that performance. The people crashing those would find a way to do it in a Camry or whatever else they can get their hands on, the sports car just makes it even easier.
“the average person doing dumb things on the street does those dumb things in whatever they happen to be in whether it be new or old”
C’mon, we all know what cars they are in….. It’s a Nissan Altima or maybe a Rogue/Murano if they stretched out the payments a few more decades.
Dodge Charger enters the chat.
Rusty Buckets said: “that’s why most folks drive cars which are closer to achieving 100mpg than they are to achieving 1000hp.“
Then you said “Is that so? The average car gets 24.4 mpg,”
You lost all credibility with that horrible “argument” that ignores the statement and math, and yet actually proved Rusty’s point..
To get 100MPG the average car would need a 4.1x increase in MPG.
To get 1000HP the average car would need a 5.3x increase in HP.
That’s using averages. However what Rusty said was “most” and you can’t disprove that with out digging into the data, it’s very possible “most” people drive cars that get much more than 30MPG, but the rest are so far below, it pulls down the average. .
.
As I was trying to say its a lot easier (and cheaper) to get a 250 HP engine to 1000 HP than it is a 24.4 MPG ICE powered car 10 100 MPG. THAT is the math that matters.
Besides this entire discussion being yet another example of you being a contrarian for….. the sake of being contrary, why can’t people both pursue horsepower increases and also efficiency gains as pertaining to MPG?
I assure you that both are happening all the time. Seems like a silly argument to have honestly and Rust Buckets already mentioned this.
There’s no reason to crap on gear heads looking for HP gains just because you prefer MPG increases. There is room for both.
Because we are way beyond the practical need for more power*. At this point more horsepower encourages vehicle bloat and poor driving behavior whereas better MPG reduces both gasoline consumption and emissions.
*for the street.
More power out of what you have is just increased efficiency. There is always reason to do that. Besides, we’re talking about handfuls of people in their driveway, not mfr mandates.
They didn’t use what they had, they completely replaced the engine with one from a different vehicle AND added new parts. So not efficient even by that metric.
They also made no mention of fuel consumption that I saw so I have no reason to assume if got any better. I do though think its a safe bet it got worse.
I was talking about the tuner community at large because you had expanded the rant to include essentially anyone pursuing horsepower gains above what you consider acceptable amounts.
But we can still argue for the specific case of the article – The Navigator motors are recycled from a yard vs getting a crate motor that is newly built.
If the person has already decided that it’s unfeasible or cost-prohibitive to get the performance they want out of their current Mustang, building up a junkyard motor is more efficient economically and environmentally in this case vs buying a new crate motor and spending more. Win-win.
Its only a win-win if emissions (including noise) and fuel consumption don’t increase.
Exactly. Nobody is doing that. It’s smiles per gallon 🙂
Ford folks feel free to chime in, but wouldn’t a better swap be the 4.6 4v from the Aviator? All aluminum construction, and made some appearances in serious performance cars including Koenigsegg. Then again maybe the extra displacement is worth the ~100lb weight penalty
I’d say so as in that application and the Marauder it made 302 HP , but the torque is less than the Gator’s at 318. Plus it is shorter and narrower too so it will fit in with less massaging or unique parts. Of course if you are going for crazy hp the old saying is there is no replacement for displacement.
They are the same size from a width and length standpoint, the 5.4L just have a taller deck to increase the stroke. This is made worse by the size of the intake manifold. Then of course there is the iron versus aluminum block weight difference.
That taller deck also makes the engine wider.
You’re not wrong, but the extra width is up higher where is it less of an issue, at least when swapping into a Mustang.
The 4.6L 4V from the Aviator does get some love, though from what I’ve seen it has largely been overshadowed by the 5.0L Coyote. For a bit you could find reasonably nice Aviators in the junkyard without engines because they got cheap enough that people would buy functional vehicles just to pluck the engine and harness out of and then scrap the rest.
That is the more common and preferred swap versus the 5.4L. I typically only see the 5.4L being used on more dedicated drag cars.
This is old news. Hell, I had a Lincoln Mark VII 4.6 4v I was building to shoehorn into my last Mustang II with a TR3650, but I sold both when I got behind on bills. 5.4 swaps are somewhat common in SN95 cars because, well, who wouldn’t want 49 more cubic inches of displacement that bolts right in? Even the 5.4 2v from an Expedition or an F-Series makes power with a power adder. Hell, there was guy on Stangnet named Sal that put a supercharged 5.4 from a wrecked Lightning into his Mustang II Cobra II.
A Mod motor, particularly a 4v must be a very tight fit in a MII engine bay.
Insanely tight, I was going to have to cut the inner fenders out, among other things. It’s been done by others though, I know of at least two with 4.6s and two with Coyotes.
Probably a much better use of the engine than in a Navigator. I had one. I sold it after towing a big load a couple of times because the only way it could tow was revving the piss out of the engine at highway speeds with any kind of incline (like a bridge over another road.) It did perform better than the 351w in my 88 F-250. But the Hemi in my Ram 1500 loaf along at 2k rpm towing the same load that would take 4k rpm in the Navigator.
Let’s be honest, Ford spent tons of money on manufacturing costs for a complex engine design that barely (?) kept up with the LS and Hemi. They eventually got the message and went back to simple reliable cheap pushrods for the truck 7.3. You don’t need a 4 valve DOHC to make good power and torque and fuel economy, just good head ports and cam profile design.
This is definitely a take. I mean, it’s wrong, but hey, you said it, not me.
So which Ford decision was the right one? 4V DOHC or 2V Godzilla?
Both.
Ford designed the modular V8s because they saw the direction everyone else’s technology was going and didn’t want to be left behind. The V8s weren’t supposed to be the only modular engines, as there was supposed to be a V6 and I4 developed based on the design and share the same tooling, but they were canceled.
The Godzilla was designed because the Triton V10 was dated, fuel-hungry, and unpopular. There was a demand for a large-displacement gasoline V8 on the market due to the stricter emissions requirements and increased maintenance costs of modern diesels. In response to that, Ford designed the Godzilla engines and GM designed their new 6.6L gas V8.
Chrysler had known of this need all along, which is why they developed the 6.4 Hemi for their 3/4-ton and larger trucks years ago.
I’ll bite. Modular engines pre-dated LS and HEMI engines. Of course those two would come with improvements in power over a 2V modular. But a Mustang Cobra R could give you a good idea of what a Modular could reliably get from the factory without needing Turbos.
Chevy had to tune the larger displacement LS1 into the LS6 to match those numbers when they released the C5 Z06. So did the HEMI which wouldn’t surpass those numbers until they released the 6.1 variant in the late 2000s
Ford OHC V8’s have been leagues ahead of the Hemi architecture for years. Sure, the first Mod’s weren’t powerful, but Ford constantly worked on them, unlike Daimler or Fiat did the Hemi.
The Hemi is the worst motor of any of the big 3, hell even among every other V8 in production of the 21st century, and this is coming from a Mopar guy.
It’s not all that.
The real shame was DaimlerChrysler developing the 4.7L Modular V8 of their own, and never really updating the damned thing. I had one in my 2003 Ram 1500. Super reliable, sounded amazing (especially after I replaced the factory muffler with a Thrush welded chamber muffler), fantastic fuel economy (all-time best was 25mpg without drafting semi trucks, 28mpg drafting), and could tow like an old carbureted big block.
In 2008 it got Hemi-fied. It got a bump in power from 235/295 hp/tq to 300/330~ hp/tq.
Yeah, I forgot about that. That said, it never got a DOHC variant, or supercharger/turbocharged variant, or even variable cam timing. I really liked mine a lot.
No. Ford spent tons of money on manufacturing costs for a complex engine design that blew the competition out of the water. Because, at the time the Modular came out, the competition was TBI 305 Chevys and 318 Chryslers. And the Modular had far superior power and efficiency.
No, you don’t need OHC for good power and efficiency. However, OHC is a valid route to good power and efficiency, and it has some advantages over pushrods.
Facts.
This is bait, and I am biting. You must be completely ignoring the Coyote engines. The 4.6L and 5.4L were hanging in there just fine with the LS and Hemi, although they are certainly more complicated and expensive to build. The Coyotes performance is a whole other ball game though. Especially the 2nd Gen+ Coyotes. I used to work at a speed shop and we regularly made 800whp out of 2nd and 3rd gen Coyotes utilizing stock engine and transmission and bolting on a power adder. The only thing a Coyote needs upgraded from a completely stock engine is billet crank sprocket and oil pump gears to make that sort of power reliably. The highest HP I saw on a totally stock enginge(besides billet gears) was 1200hp and it had over 40k miles at that power level. When I left that car was still going and he regularly took it to the drag strip.
There is a reason the 7.3L is not commonly used in production cars with the exception of a few commercial type applications for towing and similar. Even in drag racing, they have not proved to be nearly as reliable as a Coyote. I have seen multiple teams put 7.3L in Foxbodys only to then go back to a Coyote based drivetrain.
If you want more data, just compare the 2025 Mustang GT to the 2025 Camaro and Charger/Challenger V8s. Oh wait..
As long as it still spits out spark plugs from the heads and develops biblical exhaust leaks I’m in.
(parents had a 1999 Expedition that did both many times)
Totally different head design between the 4v and 2v.
And 3V, which was the real problem child, so to speak.
Nah, the only actual problems with the 3V were a crappy spark plug design (really Ford, a two piece spark plug?) and Ford lying to the owners about being able to go 10,000 miles on an oil change. Every single high mileage 4.6 and 5.4 3-valve I see at the shop that hasn’t had an engine replacement or cam phaser failure has the same thing in common, 3,000-5,000 mile oil change intervals.
I concur.
I meant – but admittedly didn’t say – that the 3V is where the Mod/Triton got its less than great reputation, mostly purported by those who want to throw shade at Ford with weak propaganda. And yeah, the 2-piece plug is a head-scratcher.
Manufacturers pushing LOF intervals has been the death of far too many otherwise acceptable engines.
Those spark plugs man, holy cow. I took the oringals out of my 06 3v after the car was already 9 years old. Luckily the car was garage kept and only had 20,000 miles on it, but there were a few pucker moments for sure. Blowing out debris and shooting some PB Blaster down the tube for a 30min soak made it mostly painless though. What a dumb ass design.
I took the original plugs out of my 07 3v Expedition at 190k miles and 17 years of age, came out fine. Not sure what everybody else is doing wrong.
I had major difficulties getting the coil boots off and vacuuming dirt out of the holes, but once I had a socket on a clean plug they came out no problem.
I blow out the spark plug tubes and fill each with B12 Carb Cleaner about 1/2″ deep, let them soak for a few minutes, crack them loose, then let them soak for ten more and check them. I haven’t had to use my Lisle plug extractor yet!
The hate for the 3v is something I always try to dismiss when people ask about my 2006 modified GT. I personally love the motor. Cheap to mod, been bulletproof (for me at least) as I do 5,000 mile oil changes (car is a weekend toy so it’s about 6k a year on it to C&Cs & other fun things). And the best thing, the sound. All I did to my car was longtubes, off road H pipe (not a fan of the raspy X) and Borla mufflers. Basically straight piped (in PA, 15+ years old, NO Emission tests anymore) with a CAI & 93 dyno tune. 350/375 at the crank.
It sounds like a small block 60s Mustang. Everyone compliments how it sounds. People I don’t even know. And my car will turn 63k this weekend (owned since new) and NOT ONE ISSUE! And I did the plugs at 30k (that was a PITA) and put OEMs back in, (2-piece) but added anti-sieze. They should come out easier this time (????).
But overall, I love my car and the motor that’s in it. But I also get it where people were mad. Coming after the 32v modular in the Mach1 and before the Coyote. It should have had more than 300hp. Would have loved it if they developed the Mach1 motor some more. But it is what it is and there is nothing else I would do to my car. Well, maybe, 1 thing. I would LOVE to find the Ford Performance Boss 302 side exit exhaust kit (long discontinued). It can be added to any S197 as long as you tap in threads. Would love to add that for the sound only. THAT would be the cherry on the sundae with my car. ????
I’ve had two 4.6 3v Mustangs. The first was in a new 2010 GT that I bought AFTER the Coyote debuted because after test-driving both, the MT-82 was so unpleasant that I didn’t care about the 97 more horsepower the Coyote in front of it had, and the 2010 had the same styling since Ford updated that a year before the powertrain. That car got drag raced every weekend, and driven harder than any other car I’ve owned, and not a damn thing broke. I went through a set of tires in 13,000 miles, even with two rotations, but nothing broke. I sold it for what I paid for it after a year because I wanted to buy a house and the $540 a month payments were holding me back.
The 3v can certainly be good engines and definitely sound amazing with cams, but they were plagued by spark plug and cam phaser issues which really tarnished their reputation, plus they fell in between the 4.6L 4V in the Mach 1 and Cobra and the 1st gen Coyote like you alluded to. Another issue they have is that they have gotten so much cheaper than others that they commonly are beat up and cheaply modified, at least in my area.
Oh wow, nice. Love the GT, only have gotten to drive a couple around parking lots. I hope you get featured on Members’ Rides, if you want.
Maybe I’m crazy, but I won’t do anti-seize on plugs. I had a bad experience in my 20s breaking a spark plug and don’t ever want to repeat it, so the fact that I can’t easily follow torque specs adding anti-seize to plugs keeps me away.
Maybe a noob question, but how do you estimate torque values on plugs after using anti-seize? Are people taking 25-?? % off or just tightening to a feel and then adding a quarter turn or something?
I’ve talked to various people who land in different camps – never anti-seize and torque to spec, anti-seize everything and tighten to 75% or “good enough”, and some people who don’t torque anything to spec except maybe engine bolts and pan bolts (unless they are true gamblers).
I don’t work in a shop or anything, just a weekend warrior that had some shit cars and now wants to keep the decent ones running, so I have no clue what the standard is in the rust areas (NY here).
If only we could skip emissions after 15 years. 25 effin years here!