I’m now back in the United States and I’ve got a cache of stories from Goodwood I’m excited to share, but there’s plenty of news here worth talking about so I’ll get to those in a bit. First up, a new study is out about electric car ownership and it turns out that it’s cheaper than owning a gas-powered car for just about everyone. I’m curious about the two places where it’s still more expensive.
Incentives are a big reason why the cost of ownership of electric cars is currently lower, though no one expects those to last forever. Eventually, prices have to come down by reducing the cost of batteries. That requires investment and investment in critical mineral mining is starting to look a little sketchy.
Is Stellantis boned? They’re highly profitable, so the assumption is they are de-boned like a nice rainbow trout, though I have some concerns. The first half of the year was bad for Stellantis, with Honda replacing them as the 5th biggest automaker by sales in the United States.
And, finally, the UAW continues to be in hot water as the new guy is starting to act a little like the old guys.
It’s Still Cheaper To Own An ICE Vehicle In West Virginia And Maine
What do Maine and West Virginia have in common? Both are more rural, more mountainous, and wilder places adjacent to more suburban/urban states. In some ways, Maine is the West Virginia of the Northeast, or vice versa.
I’m talking about these states because Automotive News commissioned a study from J.D. Power to determine how much cheaper/more expensive an electric vehicle is than a comparable gas-powered vehicle over five years. Nationwide, if you buy an electric car you’re going to pay more upfront (by about $13,000) but save enough in fuel, incentives, and other costs to make up the difference and net about $3,100.
The variability from state to state is huge, however.
If you live in New Jersey, those savings are more than $10,000 over five years, which leads the nation (some of this is due to a statewide sales tax break that’s going away), followed by places like Illinois, Nevada, and Colorado.
What’s the flip side of this? In Maine, you’re going to spend about $1,600 more over five years. It’s even worse in West Virginia, where that cost rises to almost $1,800. You could argue that swapping for a more advanced vehicle for less than $400 is a good deal, but try telling that to someone pay a lot more for an EV than a comparable hybrid or ICE vehicle.
So why Maine? Let’s look at the methodology, according to Automotive News:
Untangling the cost of owning a car is a complicated but essential exercise for buyers considering an EV over a gasoline-powered vehicle. J.D. Power analyzed many factors, including transaction prices, taxes, regional gasoline prices and electricity rates, and zero-emission vehicle incentives. The data suggests that long-term cost outweighs EV sticker shock for comparable vehicles.
The most obvious factor might be the cost of gasoline versus the cost of electricity. So let’s look at Maine first. According to AAA, Maine’s average $3.50 gas cost is pretty much bang on at the national average. West Virginia, too, is close at $3.45. So neither state seems to enjoy a big advantage or disadvantage when it comes to gas prices. The cost of electricity? According to this CNET article, West Virginia has average electricity rates but higher than average electricity bills (the 7th highest in the nation). Maine, as well, is in the top ten.
Maine “de-regulated” its energy sector in 2000, leading to much higher rates, as deregulation of power companies has handed a ton of money and monopolies to private companies in exchange for… I’m not sure what. Just ask Houstonians how they feel about turning a public utility into a private profit funnel.
Maine, at least, has EV incentives that help counter some of this negative cost differential. According to Hannah Lutz, the reporter who wrote the story, WV offers no state or utility incentives to support EV sales. Big shock: Only about 261 EVs were sold in the state in Q1 of this year.
All of this is to say that, with our current incentive regime, you’re better off getting an EV from a cost perspective almost everywhere.
“There Is A Lot Of Doubt Right Now” That EV Mandates Will Stick
The World Materials Forum was held in Paris last week and the big discussion at the conference, which focuses on mining/natural resources, was just how fast the transition to electric cars would happen.
The conclusion? Not as fast as government mandates might have you believe according to this Reuters report from the forum.
“I think there is a lot of doubt right now that this will happen,” Mathias Miedreich, former CEO of Belgium recycling and battery materials group Umicore, told the conference. “That makes it very difficult to invest.”
In May Miedreich stepped down from Umicore, which lowered its 2024 profit forecast the following month due to weak demand projections for battery materials due to a slowing EV market.
If you follow the money, players in the space say it’s still possible to get financing for projects focused on the minerals critical to EV battery production, but it’s not as easy as it once was.
Obviously, projections for cheaper EVs were partially premised on the idea of having cheaper raw materials. If we don’t get cheaper materials fast enough then that’s going to slow down and, as you can see above, cost is a big driver of acceptance.
Honda Is Kicking Stellantis’ Butt
I wrote earlier this year that I was concerned about Stellantis sticking the landing, which is to say that I’m not sure the company has the product mix to maintain the kind of sales volume it needs to remain as profitable as it has been over the past few years.
Those profits were built, in part, on cost-cutting, the continuation of old platforms, layoffs, and a well-timed global supply shortage. New products are coming and maybe it’ll all work out and this hand-wringing over the performance of the company is just everyone focusing on too narrow a point in a company’s transition period.
Or maybe it isn’t. Right now it sucks to be a Stellantis dealer as you’re losing market share to companies like Honda, which has seemingly exactly the right product for consumers.
In the first half of the year, Stellantis shrank to the 6th biggest automaker in the United States behind Honda. I like this analysis from Automotive News as it zeroes in one of the big changes in the market:
Sales of pickups and SUVs declined, while crossovers rose to account for 45 percent of the market. Compact crossovers alone outsold pickups of all sizes.
Although nearly every car segment shrank, strong performances for the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla and Nissan Sentra helped compact cars to a 24 percent gain.
Stellantis has a bunch of compact crossovers and they’re fine, but hardly competitive with Honda has right now. Pickups are, generally, way more profitable, but companies like Honda can win on volume, especially when RAM truck sales are down 20% year-over-year during the first half of the year. In fact, Honda sold more CR-Vs in the first six months of the year than Ram sold all pickups.
UAW President In Trouble For Alleged Financial Misconduct
The former leaders of the United Auto Workers union were either tossed out of office or tossed into jail after numerous instances of taking money for personal use and otherwise engaging in shifty behavior. A new administration came in, led by Shawn Fain, and the UAW would go on to win historic contracts from the three major Detroit automakers and unionize a plant in the South for the first time ever.
Still, the UAW has a federal monitor in place to make sure there’s no backsliding into illegal activity, and that federal monitor is trying to look into claims that Fain used his position to punish senior leadership for not kicking money to his fiancee and her sister, both who work at the UAW’s National Training Center. The monitor says he’s getting stonewalled and has filed a motion to get access to more information.
From the Detroit Free Press:
The motion, filed by monitor Neil Barofsky, requests that the court confirm the monitor’s authority to receive access to records immediately and compel the UAW to produce documents that the monitor is asking for.
“Despite the monitor’s repeated requests, the union has not provided such access to union documents for these investigations, insisting that the union must engage in what has become a lengthy pre-production review and asserting that it will withhold or redact documents as it deems necessary to protect privilege and confidentiality … by taking that position, the union has effectively stalled the monitor’s work,” the motion said, which was filed in the U.S. District Court in Detroit Monday.
And what does the union have to say about this?
The federal government’s work rooting out the corruption in previous administrations is what allowed our members to take back their union. … We have cooperated and will continue to cooperate with the federal monitor and remain focused on building power for workers.”
A source familiar with the investigation said the benefit in question is not a benefit specific to Fain’s fiancee and her sister, but rather that National Training Center employees have not had a raise in several years and negotiations covering these employees are a routine aspect of negotiations with the Detroit Three automakers.
Time will tell what actually happened here and it’s possible there were no shenanigans. Either way, not cooperating with the federal monitor is a bad look.
What I’m Listening To On The Train While Writing TMD
Yesterday I was on a plane. Today I’m on a train, writing about cars, listening to a song about roads. That’s right, let’s listen to “Take me home, country roads” from John Denver who is, so far as I can tell, the freakin’ best.
The Big Question
How much cheaper does an EV need to be per year for you to consider it? Did you already do that math?
I’m not in the market for a vehicle and I hope not to be for several years to come, so basically there’s no reason for me to consider an EV.
When I do buy a car though, I set my budget and I look at my needs and wants and then I look at the available options. Price isn’t the determining factor for what I buy, at least to the extent that it’s within the budget I set.
They’d have to be nearly free for me to drive the horrible POS EVs on offer. There is nothing appealing in the massively overweight, bloated, touchscreen-laden, boring, ugly, annoying, disposable junk that makes up the EV market to various degrees. Waiting for Caterham to make an EV coupe, I guess, and sell it as a very simple-to-complete kit to get around having to have the active “safety” and other Big Brother annoyances.
Absolutely. Especially compared to the horrible POS ICEs on offer that are massively overweight, bloated, touchscreen-laden, boring, ugly, annoying, disposable junk… 😀
Maybe it’s new cars you hate? Which I totally get.
It is. A GR86 is a bit impractical for me, but I bought it anyway because it’s the most vintage-type daily-able new car there is and a utility trailer takes care of the rest. I do think the EVs are worse, but ICE isn’t far behind and getting ever-more disposable and bland. I was all for EVs for what they could be—should be if we’re actually interested in a green machine—but we’re getting pretty much the polar opposite. I wonder what will drive uppity car sales in the future when cars are full-on appliances and the idea of them being fun and a bit of a reflection of their owners is a distant memory and differences are useless features nobody uses. It’s like, people wearing pajamas outdoors is a lot more common today, particularly with younger people. When cars become pajamas, how many people will GAF about paying more for them, especially when nobody will notice? Nobody comments on my appliances because, who cares? That could all be a good thing for the planet if EVs got lighter and people needed fewer of them, but judging by past performance, that’s not what we’ll get.
The Big Question: I’ve done the math based on my current driving, and switching to an EV for an all-wheel drive vehicle of similar size would be more expensive than my ICE vehicle, factoring in my car payment, fuel & maintenance costs.
I could probably pay similar if I wanted to compromise further than I already am doing and get a vehicle I’ve even less thrilled with driving, but why should I do that?
I have done the math, and I would save enough money by going EV (compared to other vehicles I’m considering…my Niro gets good enough gas mileage and spends enough time on electric that breaking even would require a pretty cheap EV) to make it worth it to me…if I could find one that I actually like well enough.
The Mach E is nice, but I don’t like most of the controls being touchscreen. Similar issues with the ID.4, Hyundai EVs, and Ariya, given the number of capacitive buttons.
The EV6 weird shared climate/audio panel is something I think I could live with. But I had a shitty experience with Kia service and don’t really want to deal with them. But the lease deals are tempting. (Interestingly, I would save a few bucks on my insurance moving from a Niro to an EV6 for some reason.)
The Chevy Blazer/Equinox just felt…meh. They weren’t bad, but things like the uncertainty around Android Automotive apps and connectivity costs really make me nervous and they weren’t nice enough/fun enough/cool enough to overlook those things. I ended up cancelling an order at a local dealer because they could not seem to communicate at all.
The BMW i4 was pretty good, but the price and the insurance cost were both a little higher than I’d like.
Tesla has the controls problem, the insurance cost problem, and I don’t really want to buy from Tesla.
It looks like my next vehicle will probably be another PHEV for now. My local dealer started getting the RAV4 Prime and it checks all the boxes I need to check this time.
“How much cheaper does an EV need to be per year for you to consider it?”
I didn’t consider cost savings when I bought my Leaf or Model 3. I bought the Leaf because I was bored with what I was driving and wanted to try something different. I bought the Model 3 because I wanted something with a longer range; I also like the styling of the Model 3 and find them fun to drive.
I see EVs as having a lot of appeal beyond cost savings. I like that they are quiet and don’t have the vibrations, noise, or heat that ICE vehicles have. I like the minimal maintenance requirements. I like being able to fill up my car at home. I like the instant acceleration (my Leaf felt fast even if it objectively wasn’t; my Model 3 is legitimately quick). I like being able to drive using only one pedal.
The cost savings are nice, but if I wanted to save money I would have bought a 10+ year old Civic or Corolla. The difference in purchase price and insurance costs more than make up for the cost of gas.
I was surprised CT wasn’t on that list, so I clicked through. Turns out they think it’s a bit cheaper to own an EV vs. ICE ($~1200) in this state but far more expensive to lease an EV vs ICE (almost $7k difference). Not sure how there’s such a massive gap between those two, can’t see their methodology. Might have incorporated some state purchase incentives, but last I checked the income caps for those are so low hardly anyone who is actually buying new cars will qualify for them.
I did the math last year and it turned out it was more expensive to run a PHEV on electricity than gas around here. I assumed an EV would come out a bit ahead due to being more efficient, but the higher purchase price makes it a wash at best.
Was confusing to me as well, since we have federal rebates plus CHEAPR rebates. I need to do this math better myself, as I live here.
https://portal.ct.gov/deep/air/mobile-sources/cheapr/cheapr—home
and here is the list plus rebate. Keep in mind, you need to be “poor” or live in a “poor” city to get “New Incentive (1)”….
https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/deep/air/mobile/cheapr/cheapr-new-eligible-vehicle-list.pdf
How much cheaper does an EV need to be per year for you to consider it?
It’s not just cost. It’s infrastructure, it’s reliability, it’s technology.
Until there’s an EV I feel comfortable driving for ten to fifteen years, with running costs and reliability comparable to a regular gas car, I cannot reccomend an EV beyond leasing.
As for the UAW, The Who sang “Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss”. It’s an age old problem.
I have solar power and spare room in my breaker box for a Level II charger. It would seem that moving from ICE to PHEV would be cost effective. I think about the massive reduction in carbon footprint. From the Sun to my battery.
Oil production requires massive amounts of energy to produce gas/diesel. Surveyor, rig hauler, rig, roughnecks, pump trucks, transport truck. This doesn’t include refining and distribution. It makes sense to me and for the future air we breathe.
Good takes. I’m betting you could get away with a Level 1 (120V/15A) wall socket for PHEV’s on the market today and skip the Level 2 upgrade.
Resident Mainer, and let me tell you, even though Centerpoint wants it. There is no worse power company in America than our Basque overlords at Central Maine Power. Deregulation was massive mistake. All because we have this moronic law, that CMP gets to charge their cost plus 15% management fee for any repairs to damaged lines. Maine being a collection of rocks with a forest on top. Any decent wind is taking out a few lines. CMP would make less money long term if they did this thing called “make improvements”, so they just replace down lines with gum and whatever discarded lines they had laying around. And we end up losing power, often for days, every time the wind gets strong enough to blow over a lawn chair. This late winter we had 3 multiple days outages. We’re in this endless cycle of paying more for horseshit. When over 60% of power is from cheap renewables. And our French speaking friends to the North have unlimited cheap river power. We had a vote on turning the power company state-owned, but that lost to an extremely well funded misinformation campaign by said Basque overloads.
Also, the UAW seems very politically motivated trumped up accusation due to comments made towards a Ceasefire. As the Fed Monitor Neil Barofsky, was demanding that the Union accept the ADLs objections. And the Union told him it was past is scope as Monitor. And a couple weeks later, we get a frankly pretty questionable accusation.
How many solar farms in your town sending free electricity to Massachusetts?
We have 2, so I assume both of them.
“There is no worse power company in America than our Basque overlords at Central Maine Power.”
PG&E enters the chat:
https://sfstandard.com/2023/03/23/people-really-hate-pge-as-utility-ranks-dead-last-in-customer-satisfaction-survey/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/pge-to-pay-55-million-for-two-massive-california-wildfires
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/safety-awareness/pipeline/pacific-gas-electric-pipeline-rupture-san-bruno-ca
https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf
https://www.pge.com/en/outages-and-safety/safety/community-wildfire-safety-program/public-safety-power-shutoffs.html
S.C.E. (Screw Customers Enormously) also chimes into the conversation.
S.C.E.:- Oh, you produce more electricity than you use with your Solar PV? Then the daily credit becomes a charge for us to take your excess power at 9.5 cents Per kWh.
Me:- WTF why are you charging me for my power???
S.C.E:- Don’t worry, we’ll pay you for your excess power at the end of the 12 month contract.
Me:- Great, how much will you pay me for my excess electricity? I’ve got around 3,000kW/h.
S.C.E.:- 2.5 cents…
Me:- Umm… So I pay you net 7 cents to take my power? Wow. Gee, thanks…
S.C.E:- HA HA!
And here’s why:
“The CPUC is also hoping this updated method of paying back newer solar customers will encourage them to buy batteries, so they can use or sell extra energy back to the grid during high-demand hours.”
https://www.kcra.com/article/california-excess-solar-energy-credits-changing/43558255
I guess it was just too much to ask that utility companies deal with energy storage even though they (not you) have access to the biggest batteries out there: pumped hydroelectric plants.
OTOH if you needed an excuse to pick up a cheap used EV. I don’t suppose your system supports V2H or V2G?
Expecting the power companies to do anything in their customers interest is foolish. Everything they do is governed by the State. On the bright side they have been mandated to toward renewables (I can’t remember the percentage) so they are having to do battery storage to meet that goal.
I have an EV6 which does do V2L, and I’ve seen Technically Jeff (YouTube) power some of his house circuits with a Natures Generator.
https://naturesgenerator.com/
If I understand it correctly I have to turn off Utility power then chose what circuits to power from the car. As the EV6 doesn’t have that much output it won’t work for the AC units.
I have thought about adding Enphase batteries, but they seem cost prohibitive.
I think the Ford Lightning might be better as I understand they have bi-directional charging / chargers ($10K option) like the Cyber Truck. Although I haven’t looked in depth at their capabilities. The Cyber Truck is well beyond my budget and I personally think it looks awful, so that won’t be an option.
Would an old Leaf work?
Yes:
“In states with utility demand response programs, bi-directional-enabled Nissan LEAF vehicles (MY2013 and later) are able to safely send energy stored in the battery to the grid during peak energy demand times, such as in summer months.”
https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-5078281d19ed36853371357c4a1a8244-nissan-approves-first-bi-directional-charger-for-use-with-nissan-leaf-in-the-us
“The Nissan Leaf has a V2H function (it’s the only EV on the market with both V2G and V2H), and it can supply up to 7 kW of electricity and provide electricity to your home for around two days.
Just like V2G, V2H can save you money on your electricity bill since you can still charge your EV during off-peak hours and then use that power instead of power from the grid when it’s more expensive. It also requires a specific type of home charger to be installed, which not only allows for two-way charging but also converts AC (alternating current) from the grid into the DC (direct current) used by EVs and vice versa.”
https://insideevs.com/features/709000/bidirectional-charging-v2l-v2g/
I dunno if any V2H chargers have gotten the official blessing from Nissan or how much it will cost.
It looks like GM has a Bi-Directional Power Shift Charger, ($1,700), and you need an ‘enablement kit’ too, ($5,600).
Both of those costs are ‘estimated’ so maybe they are not on sale yet, also installation is extra.
https://gmenergy.gm.com/for-home/products/gm-energy-powershift-charger
https://gmenergy.gm.com/for-home/products/gm-energy-v2h-enablement-kit
The Nissan stuff appears to be commercial operators only.
Are you on NEM 3.0? I am on NEM 1.0 (got solar in 2016) and it doesn’t work the way that you described.
NEM 2.0 I’m on TOU D 4-9 rates, they have a Prime rate for EV drivers what has no daily credit but in SCE’s rate or cost comparison tool that would cost me $167 more a year.
I’m sure UAW is only being targeted due to Fain calling for a cease fire. If you look hard enough for corruption in any organization, you’ll always find it.
The Drop Site has a pretty in-depth report on the whole issue. Regardless of whether there are or aren’t inappropriate benefits at play, the oversight with a lack of checks and balances is troubling. It starts off with…
And then this seems bizarre.
And oh boy.
This is also worth noting if it is an issue of negotiating better overall benefits or benefits specifically for two people. Bold is my emphasis.
Thanks for bringing more context right to my eyes so I didn’t have to dig. Sometimes it can be tough to find the source that backs up what a commenter has said; I appreciate not having to dig through an SEO garbage pile to find it.
Maine also has EV incentives that match or exceed federal incentives for new and used EVs. Along with low/no cost home charger installation. Both based on your income level. I’ll agree though, that most folks who live year round in most of the state would rather go down to their local CDJR dealer and get taken for a ride with $1,200/mo payment for their SUPER DUPER EV KILLING RAM TRUCK
IDK, seems like a pretty “From Away take”. Most of Maine, outside of the 95 cities area (L-A, Augusta, Waterville, Bangor), is pretty progressive. I can’t think of a bigger social faux pas then showing up to the Contra dance in brand new Super Duty.
I’m neatly tucked away between the coast and the lakes. We’ve all got a screw loose in one way or another around here. And when your only local car dealer is CJDR thats what you get. Oh and Nissan too. It’s a sea of RAMs and Rogues. Le sigh…
“I can’t think of a bigger social faux pas then showing up to the Contra dance in brand new Super Duty.”
Because my friend is how you “own the libs”!
(Extra MAGA points for blowing coal.)
Anyone who thinks about an EV mandate for more than 2 seconds know they are bullshit. There has been almost no movement on finding a charging solution for people without a driveway, which is a huge problem in europe since that’s what we’re talking about here.
That’s probably the biggest problem but hardy the only one. There seems to be no talk about how BEVs work when every car is electric. IMO, they just don’t with current tech. The charging infrastructure will never keep up with the arbitrary mandate timelines they are throwing out.
Unfortunately, lots of things that are bullshit become laws anyways.
I’ll obviously be delighted if mandates are pushed back, but I also wouldn’t bet my life on it.
I simply don’t believe the people who devise these mandates fully understand the downsides (or care about the people affected).
But chevy will be allowed to keep making gasoline powered suburbans for government service. They don’t want to wait for a charge
West Virginia also has the second lowest median household income ($51,248) in America along with the 3rd highest poverty level (17.9%), so it doesn’t surprise me that EV sales in that state are low, especially with the average EV transaction price of $55,242 in April, 2024
Yeah WV has much bigger problems than EV cost of ownership. Heck, most of Maine does, too.
I’ve spent a fair amount of time in WV over the years. The natural beauty is breathtaking but dear god almighty is everything else bleak…
“Right now it sucks to be a Stellantis dealer”
Yes, my friend, it very much does. As I type this I have a customer outside comparing a 9,000 Mile 2023 Honda Odyssey ($36999) to a brand new mid level Pacifica (Roughly $53,000 with a whopping $750 in rebates)
Why this guy is even considering the Chrysler at that money is beyond me.
Any climatic benefits derived from switching to EVs from ICE in West Virginia and Maine are respectively undone by the coal and wood burning stoves in use there.
We have to keep burning wood up here! All the solar farms we build send power to other states!
But they do hand out free heat pumps to qualified Mainers!
I got a heat pump water heater for $350! For sure it will offset all my neighbors burning oil this winter.
I’m “poor” so just got our heat pump installed free of charge. Heat pump water heater on the way! How does the water heater work for you? I don’t know anyone that has one
I dunno how well they work but when I ran the math the payback vs an electric heater was about 1 year. So it should work out great for you!
That’s what I saw when I looked up stats – especially the amount of hot water my wife and three daughters use on a regular basis….yikes!
If you want a really fun exercise look into the cost of running a used Prius engine on piped natural gas as an generator (as long as you have natural gas piped to your home of course) using the *free* waste heat to heat water and HVAC. Such an engine puts out plenty of heat for a 1600 sqft home in a Minnesota winter so I imagine it’ll be fine for Maine too. The running costs of such a generator looked quite attractive for my energy rates.
(Granted my exercise was very basic, there’s still a LOT of devil left in the details)
Unfortunately, no natural gas for me but I do have 2 Priuses so now I need to check that out for fun!
If you want to take this fantasy even further imagine picking up an otherwise useless and unwanted Mirai with its 35 gallon 10k psi H2 tanks for a couple of grand and replacing the fuel cell with a V2H modified used Prius or Camry hybrid drivetrain to make a mobile heat and power CNG fueled generator.
So far it’s done a great job taking up space in the garage. Supply was erratic so I bought one at Lowes when I saw one in stock. I’m going to drag it into the basement and install it sometime in the next couple weeks.
Don’t EV’s run on coal in WV? Manchin should be throwing money at them.
I wonder how much Maine’s annual vehicle excise tax plays into thar? It’s only .0065xMSRP, but, assuming an electric car is $13,000 more than the ICE equivalent, that’s an extra $422.50 over 5 years, so that’s over 26% of that extra $1600 right there in taxes.
And that’s assuming people just buy the closest possible electric equivalent to the ICE vehicle they otherwise would have purchased, like getting a Model 3 instead of a Corolla hatchback, if someone, say, trades in their old Prius for a Rivian, obviously that’s going to skew that number.
I don’t know ME, but in MA, the excise tax is based on a very accelerated depreciation ramp that results in charges far below the true market value. How it’s figured, IDK, but if it does take into account some kind of market value and then applies a percentage of that to asses value, then EVs would depreciate more rapidly, as they do on the market, so the difference over a 5-year span would be smaller than that.
You question really depends on end use. IMHO, the best end use for an EV is as a 2nd commuter car, from a family perspective. The primary vehicle can/should be whatever suits the wants and needs of the family without judgement. But, for that regular daily commute, there is no reason for it to not be an EV. And, as such, doesn’t need to be special, for me.
So…. sub $25k is a requirement. This vehicle is and should be as much of an appliance as possible. The requirements for it should be: 125 miles on a cold day, crash safe, ability to keep up with traffic at 80mph. Pretty simple. It could otherwise be anything.
Is there a single goddamn person in a position of power in the US that isn’t corrupt at this point? It sure doesn’t seem like it. I actually liked Fain but like seemingly everyone in human history it sure looks like he was in it for himself at the end of the day. Nepotism is a scourge and a tale as old as time itself.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
-Frank Herbert
Lord Acton
I think this is why I am not, nor ever will be, in a position of power. Sorry, I’ll leave you alone now. 🙂
Oh I never ever want to be at the top of the food chain. I’m fine with being near it, being a trusted and reliable advisor, etc. But I prefer to go about what I do in an unassuming way and let the work speak for itself. It legitimately doesn’t bother me much if things don’t get attributed to me or I don’t get attention as long as I’m doing my job and the results are good.
You could offer me 4 times my current salary to be the senior director of my department and I wouldn’t accept it. For a while I worked for school systems, and people would always ask me if I ever wanted to be a principal/lightly suggested they thought I’d be good at it, and I said hell no. A lot of people who know me tell me they hope I get into politics because I’m charismatic in person and they think my heart’s in the right place.
And guess what? It’s never happening. I’m confident I’d either succumb to being the same sort of degenerate as everyone else or would become so disillusioned that I’d burn out completely in a few years. Neither of those are good outcomes, so I happily stay in my lane. It ain’t much, but it’s honest work that I enjoy and I get paid enough at this point that it’s worth the trouble.
I have looked into an EV for my commuter and that is about it. I haven’t done the complete calculations of electric vs gas prices and the insurance cost but it would be nice convenience to be able to just plug in at home or work and not worry about stopping at gas stations. As I have said on here before having an FJ and a 1st gen Cummins for dailies are not the best haha
I don’t think Stellantis is going to make it. Multiple resignations by high-level people in the US, partial French government ownership of iconic Italian brands, too much internal competition from multiple platforms in the same market segments, not enough investment into new products, etc.
My prediction? Stellantis spins off Jeep and Ram to other companies operating in North America and abandons the US/Canadian market entirely. Maybe VW buys Ram, maybe Ford or GM buys Jeep. No more Dodge or Chrysler.
darthvaderNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.gif
https://www.myinstants.com/en/instant/darth-vader-nooooooooo/
I’m having nightmarish visions of the EA888 becoming the base engine in RAM pickups
At least when the diverter valve fails you’d have enough room to access it lol (unlike on my old Jetta)
Don’t worry Zee Germans will figure out a way to design it so any maintenance to it requires you to take the engine out…
Or Ala Audi “service position” where the entire front of the car has to be removed
Or insert a maintenance reset code that must be reset by only dealership diagnostics.
It is this kind of make it too much of a pain in the ass to service bullshit that will be the death of ICE vehicles.
Of course I can’t think of Any EVs that seem to have easy to service (aka serviceability), as an expressed design intent either at least not yet in the USDM
There could be worse scenarios.
“Presenting the new Jeep Wrangler By Fisker!”
For sale for less than 1 year bf filing for bankruptcy…
I’ve been having the same thoughts recently. I wish there were some situation where some company, or even billionaire, buys the Chrysler wing of Stellantis and actually commits to being a legit automaker. Tavares clearly has no interest in having them succeed. You know, maybe something like a heavy equipment manufacturer could buy them and run them well? That’s how Hyundai started, correct? I don’t know if this particular example makes sense but what about John Deere? I hesitate since their management structure appears to be the same kind of trash that Tavares is but I’m using them strictly as an example. Maybe Caterpillar?
So Honda dealers are selling a lot of cars and Chrysler dealers aren’t.
Sounds like 1983 all over again.
I imagine a lot of people consider the operating costs of EV vs ICE when they are thinking of a commuter or second car. For their primary household vehicle they look at capability to haul the family, take a vacation, do work, or just enjoy for fun.
Yep, since I no longer commute regularly, running costs are not really a primary consideration for what I need in a car.
I suppose if forced to answer, the savings would need to be enough for me to afford to fly my family every time we road trip currently. Probably something like $5-6K annually.
I just got an EV and didn’t really consider any of the operating costs. I didn’t analyze the charging costs vs. ICE or hybrid. I got a good deal on a vehicle that will work for my needs. It’s not really for vacations. It’s a commuter.
I guess for fun it does have fast acceleration. But it’s not like you can zoom from 0-60 all day long so that wasn’t a huge factor either.
same. just bought an EV for commuting and 99% of my trips. price was nearly 50% off msrp for a MY2023 with very low miles. Insurance was only slightly higher than a 2011 subaru I am replacing.
I think it may be a good sign for EV acceptance when they are just shopped alongside ICE vehicles. I wasn’t shopping for an EV, just for a vehicle.
I always thought the EV mandates were too ambitious. I was under the impression that was intentional to drive development and investment in EV and battery tech and pushing the date back was always inevitable.
I am shocked I tell you! Absolutely shocked!!! I am happy in a union at my job, but honestly, when they get big enough, then they become very much like the exact machine they propose to be raging against, at least in my time on earth it feels like that.
I’ve worked at both small (<40 people) and huge companies (150,000+ people), and while both have their good and bad issues, the larger ones always felt like they had an uncontrollable momentum to them. Managing organizations always feels like steering a canoe with a paddle, so more suggestion than anything else. Leadership changes always came with new ideas and changes to the organization, but more often than not resulted in the only thing changed was the leadership becoming okay with the status quo they sought to remove. I imagine the UAW, given its size, is no different.
Oh this is very true. After spending the first half of my career treading water (I was a functioning alcoholic who was way overdue for therapy and it profoundly held me back), in the last 4 years I’ve grown from no body, to respected up and comer, to the high end of middle management/low end of upper management depending on how you interpret what I currently do.
Almost every time I got ostracized at a workplace along the way it was because I went to the powers that be with potential changes or didn’t go along with aspects of the status quo I didn’t agree with. Then I found a position where they (mostly) valued my input and were somewhat open to change. I then parlayed several years of success in that spot into a leadership position that I’ve currently been in for almost 2 years.
…and you know what? I haven’t made all that many changes. A lot of the time they’re more trouble than they’re worth. It’s pretty damn hard to steer an aircraft carrier. You can make some minor corrections here and there, but trying to pull a 180 is almost always disastrous…and coming in with a giant list of ideas and proposals is a great way to piss off the C suite irreversibly. You more or less just have to take your shots when they’re open and you like the look the defense gave you or you’ll be forced out in a nanosecond.
It kind of sucks, but if you go bending the rules immediately people will notice and they won’t be pleased. Changing organizational culture is a process that takes many years. I’ll be lucky if I manage to do everything I set out to do in my current position in 3 or 4 years…
Indeed. I got burned out of the big-company-middle-manager game because the upper managers wanted changes that they were unwilling to do personally (for fear of retaliation from the others in the C-suites) and wanted me to champion to the worker bees who didn’t want anything to do with them because they generally only added workload and brought them no benefit. If I was successful, the folks above took the credit and I got nothing but a pat on the back while the folks beneath hated me. If I failed, I got the blame from above…and the folks beneath hated me.
Then again, I’m a small company upper-middle manager type now trying to build out a new division within the company, and sometimes I miss the slow change of a monolithic corporation to the cultural bumper cars a small company can have when a few folks have an outsized impact on how an organization functions – it’s great when those folks all align, but more often than not there is no agreement and everyone is fighting for their own fiefdom.
As I’ve told many an intern or fresh college grad that I’ve mentored over the years, it’s nice to think that things in the real world are black and white, but the sooner you realize that literally everything is infinite shades of grey and absolutely nothing is black or white, the sooner you too can become a disillusioned, jaded, and cynical husk of a human like me.
“There is nothing more difficult and dangerous, or more doubtful of success, than an attempt to introduce a new order of things in any state. For the innovator has for enemies all those who derived advantages from the old order of things, whilst those who expect to be benefited by the new institutions will be but lukewarm defenders. This indifference arises in part from fear of their adversaries who were favoured by the existing laws, and partly from the incredulity of men who have no faith in anything new that is not the result of well-established experience. Hence it is that, whenever the opponents of the new order of things have the opportunity to attack it, they will do it with the zeal of partisans, whilst the others defend it but feebly, so that it is dangerous to rely upon the latter”.
N.Machiavelli
‘The Prince’
George Orwell – Animal Farm.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.”
— Douglas Adams