This morning we’ve got Hertz paying up for its misdeeds, Ford dealers ponying up for the future, Delta Airlines kicking in some dough for pilots, and one supplier you’ve probably never heard of playing the role of Scrooge this Christmas.
Welcome to The Morning Dump, bite-sized stories corralled into a single article for your morning perusal. If your morning coffee’s working a little too well, pull up a throne and have a gander at the best of the rest of yesterday.
Hertz Settles Theft-Related Lawsuits
You can add legally renting a car to the all-too-long list of reasons people have been arrested in the U.S., though at least this time the arrestees have seen some small measure of justice. All this year we’ve heard reports of Hertz customers being accused of theft for seemingly no reason. Here’s one from CBS:
Carrie Gibbs was arrested at a California gas station in 2019 after Hertz told police she’d stolen the truck.
The truck had been rented for her from Hertz by an insurance company after an accident, but video obtained exclusively by CBS News shows police arresting her. They took her to jail, and she was charged with felony car theft.
The case was later dismissed but Gibbs said in court papers she lost her real estate license for a year.
Being arrested isn’t just the loss of an afternoon, it can weigh seriously on your future, which is why it’s good that Hertz has settled the claims brought by 364 (!!!) people who had to deal with this and similar issues. The total bill? Per a CNN report, the company has to fork over $168 million. How did this happen? From the same story:
One lawsuit involving dozens of such cases alleged systemic flaws in Hertz’s reporting of thefts, including not recording rental extensions, falsely claiming customers hadn’t paid, failing to track its own vehicle inventory and failing to correct false reports to police.
This resolves 95% of the lawsuits against the company, according to Hertz. From the company’s press release on the matter:
Hertz Global Holdings, Inc. (NASDAQ: HTZ) today announced the settlement of 364 pending claims relating to vehicle theft reporting, bringing resolution to more than 95% of its pending theft reporting claims. The company will pay an aggregate amount of approximately $168 million by year-end to resolve these disputes. The company believes it will recover a meaningful portion of the settlement amount from its insurance carriers.
About 2/3rds Of Ford Dealers Will Be Certified EV Dealers
Ford’s plan to make dealers decide if they want in on EVs or not by investing in costly upgrades seems to be going ok, at least according to Ford CEO Jim Farley, who told a crowd at the Automotive News World Congress that 1,920 dealers opted into the program.
From a Detroit News story filed from the event:
Ford CEO Jim Farley, speaking at the Automotive News World Congress downtown Monday, said that 1,920 Ford dealers have enrolled in the Model e program for 2024-2026. Of those that enrolled, the vast majority — 1,659 dealers — opted into the highest level, “certified elite,” which gives them full sales and service capabilities and requires a higher investment level. Another 261 dealers opted to become “certified” with full service capability, a cap on how many EVs they can sell, and a lower investment requirement.
With around 3,000 dealers in total that’s a decent haul. There’s been grumbling from some dealers and Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal, asking for more time, and Ford is saying that reluctant dealers will get another chance in 2025 and 2027.
Tesla doesn’t have a franchise model and, therefore, doesn’t have to deal with the dealers. This has obvious upsides, but the downside is service. GM bragged recently that it’s fixed more than 11,000 Teslas in the last couple of years.
Delta Pilots Win More Than 30% In Pay Increases Under A New Contract
The union representing Delta Air Lines pilots has been locked in a battle with the airline for so long that when the negotiations started Cardi B was still thought of as a minor reality TV star. Why? In those years we’ve gone from abundant air travel, to a pandemic-fueled drop, to a sudden rise in travel again. Things have calmed down and there seems to be an agreement in place.
Here’s how CNBC summarizes the deal:
The “agreement-in-principle” Delta reached with the Air Line Pilots Association is equal to $7.2 billion in cumulative value over four years, the union told members in an email late Friday. About a quarter of that is tied to quality-of-life improvements.
The agreement includes an 18% increase on the day the contract is signed, then a 5% increase one year later and two 4% raises in each of the following years. It also includes a one-time payment of 4% of 2020 and 2021 pay each, plus 14% of 2022 pay.
There’s hope that stalled talks at American Airlines and United Airlines will now be able to use this deal as a blueprint.
Strikes At A Company You’ve Probably Never Heard Of Could Impact Deliveries
Your car is a collection of parts and materials created and refined/processed by companies that are basically anonymous to most car buyers. These suppliers are an essential part of the car-making process and disruptions there often end up impacting deliveries.
Today we’re going to focus on Swiss supplier Autoneum AG. If you know that company, congrats! If you don’t, don’t worry. They make sound and heat insulation used by a bunch of automakers (Ford, Toyota, Stellantis, GM). These aren’t the sexiest parts of the car but you’d certainly notice if your vehicle lacked all insulation.
And now their workers at a Bloomsburg, PA plant are on strike. Who does this impact? From Automotive News:
For the Bloomsburg plant, its exact list of customers is unclear. However, the plant received awards from Toyota in 2011, Ford in 2014 and GM in 2021. Autoneum did not respond to calls from Automotive News‘ seeking comment on the strike.
The local Fox affiliate has the story on why the strike happened:
“Where we’re at is the increase in health care costs and the raises and we’re asking for backpay for when the contract originally expired in April,” said Heverly. “They’re not willing to really hear us out on any of those subjects.”
Heverly said the company wants workers to pay an additional 5% of their healthcare to 30%. He said this would be on top of the provider’s annual increases which they are fine paying. The contract also has a $1 raise increase in the first year than 60 cents than 60 cents than 75 cent raise with no backpay from when the contract expired in April.
Heverly and the workers said they did not want to go on strike, but he said they were backed into a corner.
As Automotive News mentions, the supplier has had a rough go financially this year, and blamed the usual mix of geopolitical and economic maladies for their issues.
The Flush
Do you want to buy your next new car from a dealer/dealer network or directly from the company?
Read more on The Autopian
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- Tesla Rear Side Marker Lights Are Having Problems In China And That’s A Big Deal Because We Love Side Marker Lights
- Corvette Is Reportedly Going To Become A Brand With A Sedan And Crossover
Want to write for The Autopian? Pitch us here. Or check out the stories on our homepage.
Photo Credits: Hertz, Ford, Autoneum AG, Delta Air Lines
For those making the argument that dealerships provide an important function as a service center, here’s my recent experience with that.
My 2004 Tundra is going to need a new timing belt soon. I’ve called the 3 biggest Toyota dealerships in Denver and couldn’t get in touch with a service advisor at any of them. I’ve left phone messages and poked them through their chat services and got nary a peep from any of them, and I’ve waited several days.
I also called a local independent Toyota shop with great reviews (ASE certified mechanics, they only use Asian/Toyota parts, etc.). I spoke with one of their service advisors within seconds of calling and they gave me a full price quote with all the details.
Guess where I’m gonna take the Tundra for service?
In the case of Hertz, there needs to be more than a monetary fine. The people at the company that did the shit that caused people to get arrested should get criminally charged for things like “making false statements to police”.
Has Hertz actually corrected the causes of the false theft claims so it won’t happen again?
Have they taken any steps to clear the records of those falsely charged with theft, or does that automatically happen when charges are dropped?
Regarding dealers, I think they are like casinos – they sell you the illusion you can beat them, but everything is rigged on their favour.
It is my theory that dealerships thrive on the illusion that you will score a hot “deal” – “come and be a better negotiator than the professional negotiators that do this for a living! Make a deal better than the professional dealers!”
While some people do get excellent deals, and while some folks are indeed superior negotiators, I suspect most people could consider themselves lucky if they aren’t screwed, abused or ripped off by salespeople. It is what they do for a living!
I don’t think that having direct sales will cut on prices – the manufacturer will ask what the market is willing to pay. But it would cut all the bullshit and wasted time associated with dealerships while they try to break your will.
I don’t have hard data to back any of this up, so take it with a grain of salt (or don’t, because that thing is bad for your blood pressure). Also, I don’t even live in the US, but I think salespeople are the same everywhere. It was the same in both countries I’ve lived so far!
Hertz needs criminal charges filed against them for filing false reports. Police and prosecutors should refuse to ever accept testimony from Hertz again.
Insurance should not cover it because it was due to deliberate criminal activity.
Do you want to buy your next new car from a dealer/dealer network or directly from the company?
I bought my last new car through a broker. That was after two dealers said they had what I was looking for but didn’t, and yet another insisted there weren’t any on this side of the country. I’d buy my next new one from the mfg if it were possible. Turns out you can have a good service relationship with a dealership you wouldn’t buy from. They still want $$, and if you won’t deal with the assholes you eventually end up with the competent service writers contact details.
I’ve been following the Hertz saga so long my neck muscles are steel from shaking my head to & fro. Be interested to see the portion alloted to those arrested vs the lawyers payout. Speaking of heads, how many will roll at Hertz? And whose? I’ve bought 1 new car in my life: a ’95 Celica coupe. My first sentence after meeting a salesman was “Good morning, I have $20,000 cash and this worn out ’84 Camry” Bought a used ’14 Civic in ’16 from my credit union’s repo lot. Great loan rate, no hassles, show up with that worn out Celica, test ride the Civic, sign some papers and done. Oh, the trade value of both the Camry & Celica? $600 both times. I get ALLLL the juice out of my oranges. And cars too.
The Flush: When my daughter was around 6 years old she said loudly in the car one evening on the way home as we passed a dealership: “The next time we buy a car, can we go to one of those stores that sells cars, and not someone’s house?”
I still prefer “someone’s house”.
Umm why is there ‘allegedly’ in the Hertz story, they did have people arrested
Because they settled there was no guilty verdict and without that they have to keep saying that for legal reasons.
On that Autoneum strike, if shareholders don’t take the haircut when a global pandemic, land war in Europe, climate shitstorm, chip shortage and general logistical fuckup conspire to jack every up, what IS the risk they expect rewards for taking? Articles of incorporation shouldn’t protect simple rent seeking behavior.
Pretty one sided. How much money does the company have? You cant attack investors and say invest more without a game plan. How much are the workers making now. They do deserve to earn income equal to their skills. But if you require $15 an hour for floor sweeping Jim and lunch lady Doris that has to come from somewhere. Also if they earning $50 or more an hour and the company cant increase revenue because supply shortages well mgmt will say GFY. As an employee you should get paid fairly for your productivity and value, not the hours spent at the eater cooler. And yes some employees are worth more.
Read the article, your strawman has no clothes.
I’ve gone through Costco Auto as a buffer on dealer sales so if I do go to a dealer for a new car, I’ll do it that way. I’m good with going straight to the MFG, but having said that if we shift to that model, I do have concerns about warranty work, specifically on recalls, if dealers start disappearing.
A company that makes sound insulation is going on strike? Well, that shouldn’t affect Hondas. I said, THAT SHOULD NOT AFFECT HONDAS!
Ironically, I used to work for the company that made sound insulation for (among others) North American manufactured Hondas.
I dearly miss my 1989 Honda Civic DX. BUT had an accident rolled the car over 4 times but landed on its wheels. I was not hurt at but for strained chest muscles from holding on to the steering wheel. The car still started and ran after airing up the tires. For less than $1 000 i had it road legal in less than 2 weeks. So you leave Hondas alone.
No slam on Hondas, Dave. Traditionally they have been some of the noisier cars. I’ve owned a Del Sol and an Accord Coupe. Nice cars, quite noisy.
“The company believes it will recover a meaningful portion of the settlement amount from its insurance carriers.”
How exactly do you get insurance coverage for gross incompetence, and how are the premiums calculated?
Thats is only a concern for next quarter. S;/
One new car is about 5 used cars, or eleventy motorbikes. Who’s buying new?
I’m glad others are willing to buy new so the rest of us have a used market to choose from.
I do everything I can to minimize my interactions with auto dealers when it comes to purchasing cars. I have exclusively bought used for decades now and mostly dealt with private individuals or small, reputable dealerships. I truly believe that the success of Carvana, such as it is, is mostly due to the revulsion that most people feel when considering going to a dealership. I would much rather use the manufacturer’s website to configure my car, pay for it online and have it delivered to me directly than have anything to do with the sales staff at the dealer. Like several others have stated, the most valuable service the dealer can offer me is certified service and the opportunity to test-drive a vehicle (although Turo has been a great way to test-drive cars for a few days at a time).
You confuse me. The last new car i bought was in 2002, it is still the DD why are you buying so many cars? The dealer was acceptable but i was trying to get every nickle and got 33% knocked off sticker and an extra $20 of gas in 2002. When you want the best price you dont say please. That should be a book. But over 15 years of no car payments is great.
Also confused Carvanas success? Falling stock prices except the day after the CEO buys $1 million dollars of stock, buying cars for less than they ate worth is not a recipe for success. Rule to remember you can corner the market on a product with limited supply. You cant corner the market on a product with virtually unlimited supply. Carvana is about to declare bankruptcy. Or sell ars for less than they purchased them for.
Some people are easy to confuse, I guess 😀
“Do you want to buy your next new car…”
I still don’t want to buy my first new car.
Ditto. You said it not me.
Purchased one new car 20 years ago, Suzuki, from a Buick dealer that had the franchise, not a horrible experience, but nothing I want to do often.
Over the last 36 years I’ve owned 27 cars, one pickup, one HMV Freeway (legally a motorcycle), and one American Microcar Tri-Ped (legally a moped), all of which were more than 25 years old when I got them, in some cases considerably more.
It’s true my Zap! Xebra (legally a motorcycle) was only eleven years old when I got it, but considering that its steering linkage shattered while I was unloading it from my trailer upon getting it home, meaning that I never actually had the chance to drive it before cutting it into pieces for disposal, I’ll go ahead and call that a lesson learned.
I thought I could get away with never buying a new car again, then I started working for a company that imposes a 4 year age limit on employees’ personal vehicles, so, pending a change in policy, that train sailed, unfortunately
Does your company provide a vehicle or a monthly allowance?
I can think of a lot of drawbacks to going through a dealer, but I can’t think of any advantages at all. Just sell me the car at a fair price like literally any other product, and spare me the bullshit.
Ask your wife if that is the way it works anywhere. She probably looks at sales flyers at different grocery stores to get the best price on food. Shops sales for food, Clothing, and school supplies. Magnify a $2 box of pasta with a $40,000 car. I defy anyone to show me a product that is the same y/m/m size and cost everywhere. Cars and homes are just the major leagues.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
What does that have to do with anything, and what’s with the weird sexist premise? Yes, one can comparison shop, clip coupons, look for sales, etc. But when I come up to the checkout counter with a couple of ribeyes, I don’t have to engage in some kind of ridiculous battle of will with the cashier over the price. Because that kind of bullshit went out of fashion around the same time as the fucking barter system.
What dealership do you work for, anyway?
Dumb Dave had to post some sexism to match his racism on another post on this thread. It’s time for him to find another site.
Great news for those pilots! They’ve had to put up with a lot of bullshit these past few years dealing with the “unruly is the new black” way passengers have been acting. Also, the fact they are getting worked to the bone from short staffing. I’m curious to know what the “quality of life” elements are in the contract.
This Delta contract has gotta sting for the railroad workers that got utterly boned by the Federal Government last week, though. What a slap in the face for them.
Yeah the union back press claims overworked but lets be honest. Most of the delays are union employee call offs. If a flight is delayed the union employees are sitting around a breakroom doing nothing but that counts as work. And pilots sit on their asses looking at screens while the computers do 95% of the flying. The fact that there are not many airplane accidents but most are pilot errors are a testament to they dont deserve a raise. Like every year students get lower and lower test scores but the answer is give the incompetant, 4 month vacation teachers a raise who then say they dont have the tools and support they need. They have more support than any teacher ever had. Turn down their raises but spend the money on new text books, computers, raises for quality teachers only.
Oh, Dave.
I can’t comment on the education system and its labor relations. That’s out of my wheelhouse. I also have no idea what that has to do with anything here, but whatever.
What I do know is that almost nothing you just wrote about aviation at a major carrier is remotely true. While it is true that there are staffing issues as a result of scheduled vacation/time off/sick days etc, that’s not nearly as problematic as other factors. There are only so many hours in a day/week a pilot can fly, so when their roster is depleted the airline runs out of options. Particularly because they have to follow federal guidelines regarding employee workload. So…due to a smaller labor pool, the “Company” will force assignments (mostly on the junior staff) to push them to their legal limits. I say this without even getting into all the stuff regarding maintenance and gate issues amoung other things that are out of a pilot’s control which results in far more delays for a particular flight.
As far as pilots just sitting on their ass “95%” of a flight, that (respectfully) is an uninformed take. To be honest. 🙂
Dave is full of stupid ideas like the comment above.
I guess, lol. I just now saw how many replies he made on this whole thread. I just figured he was day drinking. Didn’t know it was a habitual thing of bad ideas. I get logged off too much to keep signing in and pay attention to who is commenting on what, but now I know. Thanks and have a nice rest of your day! 🙂
I try not to comment on your posts because they’re generally just nonsense and I can move on. However, as a former teacher and someone who has multiple family members in education your last two sentences are some of the most incompetent, uninformed drivel you’ve ever typed. If you think teachers are at fault for lower test scores you need to get your head out of your ass and do some research. I could go on forever but won’t because in the end you’re not going to change your opinion. You’ll just parrot the shit you see on Fox News and think you have a clue when you actually don’t know shit.
Work for a day with kids who are hungry, kids who moved for the fourth time since August, kids whose parents work two jobs to make ends meet and never see their kids, kids who have to get themselves ready and on the bus since parents are strung out, or just plain lazy. Those kids manage to make their way to school and try their best to learn since that’s their ticket out. Poverty. It’s expensive to educate those kids since they have so many basic needs to be met before they’re ready to learn. Can’t learn on an empty stomach or when you’re sleep deprived taking care of your younger siblings since your parents relapsed and got bounced out of rehab.
Airline pilot checking in… This has been a long time coming and shows why collective bargaining is so important. Plus this will do a lot for their recruiting. And a rising tide lifts all boats!
Now we’ll see if the committees and members vote it in. There are always some excellent contract readers out there who suss out the bad stuff. Interested to read what they have to say about it, then see how the votes go.
As an aside, just ignore that Horchak guy. No point wasting your time.
Related unrelated post-
I.see at the bottom of some new articles ‘pitch us your idea here’.
How should a pitch look? Just ‘hey, I have this idea for an article…’, or a longer sample? Or perhaps a fully fleshed out piece? Are you all in front of us shark tank style?
Either? If you’ve got a great idea but aren’t sure about writing it you can send a short pitch. If you feel like you’ve got a handle on it you can submit a fully written piece. In general, a short pitch is usually better.
Currently picturing Jason as Kevin O’Leary
Just pitch a VW tail light story and you’re in
Add Hertz to the list of companies that I will never patronize, ever, no matter what, because that was simply inexcusable.
my wife had a Hertz rental which they claimed was not returned. We sent them timestamped pictures of the car sitting in the return line, which was not staffed. After many hours on the phone and lawyering up we finally got the charges dropped. But we will never rent from Hertz or its subsidiaries Dollar and Thrifty, ever again.
Dealers. We tried to buy a car from a dealer once, only once. The misery of hours trapped waiting for the finance guy – and we were going to pay cash. My wife ended up in tears and they thought that was a negotiating tactic. Craigslist and the classified ads are full of skeevy characters but still better than a dealership.
Depending on the dealership. Some are great.
[citation needed]
In my experience “great” is relative. The dealers that people say are “great” are merely significantly less abusive than the typical ones.
I’d say the dealers are a mixed bag. Helps to look at reviews first, but I’ve had to walk away a couple times because a dealer was trying to play games. A couple times everything’s gone more or less smoothly with only desultory attempts at upselling extras, and once my wife really wanted the car so it was hours of going back and forth with the “finance guy” who kept trying to add sneaky extra charges.
I really don’t understand how they got to the point they did. Once they realized their system was flagging rentals even a little bit more incorrectly, I would want to put a hard stop to it. Instead it seems they doubled down on things and kept at it? I feel like they were just cruising for a bruising.
Sometimes idiot bosses refuse to admit they made a mistake and will do anything to prove they didnt. Even if they did.
As an example the Steelers hiring Mike Tomlin.
Of all the takes I never thought I’d read here….approximately 25-30 nfl teams would hire Tomlin in a second were he to become available. Coaches who can win 63% of their games over a 15 season run don’t fall out of trees!
Wow! One losing season in 15 years and now the whole thing was a mistake?!
“Cardi B was still thought of as a minor reality TV star. Why?”
Good question.
I will be the rare voice here saying I’ve generally had good experiences with dealers, whether ordering from the factory or buying off the lot. In every case I’ve been able to either buy some kind of lot poison below cost, or play dealers off one another to get a lower price. Since those considerations wouldn’t exist in the same way with a manufacturer direct system, I’m hesitant to give up a system that works well for me.
After all, almost all products we buy are from a “dealer”; we just don’t think of Walmart as a grocery dealer, or Menards as a lumber dealer.
Maybe that’s because Walmart doesn’t try to upsell us on the jeans we want to purchase, or offer us the TruCoat (TM) on our new blender, or ask us to step into the Finance Manager’s office for a conversation before we pay cash for those Brussels sprouts, or refuse to give us back the keys to our own car (happened to my wife at a Volvo dealer).
In my experience Auto Dealers offer no benefits beyond accessibility to the product and TONS of reasons to avoid dealing with them.
My first reply was eaten by “awaiting moderation” so I’ll just say that pressured sales exist for many products (appliances, electronics, furniture, and so on) and I don’t find it any harder to say no to upsells in those areas than I do in a car dealership.
Firm and consistent expectation setting has proven successful for me. It probably helps that any dealership willing to work with me on pricing over email is predisposed toward easy sales and no games, so a self-selection factor is at work.
Replying to myself to clarify further.
I am not arguing that the process of physically visiting a dealership adds any value to the transaction. That is a cost that I do my best to minimize.
What I am saying is if I want to buy a Ford, I would rather there be 50 dealers competing for my business than a single point of contact with the manufacturer.
But it would be very nice to have BOTH options. And it would be good to see dealer networks with less of a stranglehold on both the consumer and regulators.
Yes, I agree.
I mentioned this in my first reply that is still being moderated, but even though (to use your example) the phone carriers generally have better deals on iPhones than Apple directly, it’s still nice to have another option. I’m just less sold on its utility to me personally, and I don’t think it would save a well-informed consumer much money.
As someone who was recently trying to order a few different vehicles, the headaches it would prevent would be worthwhile. When I tried to order the new Tucson PHEV, they decided they would charge an additional 10k well after they sent me the price and ordered it. When I challenged them on it, they offered to split the difference and mark it up 5k. All this after I had been okay waiting a few months BECAUSE of the offered price. When I emailed Hyundai, they said I should contact the general manager, which is the person who offered the 5k.
I got an order in for the Sportage PHEV just under the wire for the tax credit, and the dealer assured me it would be a month or two. They insisted on adding an accessory to my order, which was fine, just as long as I could get it by the end of the year (I don’t trust trying to claim the tax credit after that, due to weird wording in places). The salesperson seems to have little grasp on their order process, which is also annoying. Well, other dealers have gotten my configuration, but my dealer has not, so I’m looking at either cancelling and getting my non-refundable deposit back (they have agreed to that for not managing to get it in time, at least) or not getting $6600 credit on my taxes.
When I was trying to order a Maverick, I did find a dealer willing to offer invoice, but that’s not really a lot of savings, and I think Ford’s new focus on orders is motivating them. When you know that orders will increase your available inventory, you try to compete for those orders.
Really, my biggest wish that all manufacturers would at least encourage ordering instead of selling from inventory. Whether they do so by offering it direct or by incentivizing it, it would be nice to have less hassle.
Wal Mart DOES try to upsell you though. Look at all the extended warranties on literally anything electronic.
I think it’s just an unfortunate fact that the more money involved, the more weasels step out of the woodwork.
OK, I’ll give you the technicality. But there’s an enormous difference between a casual “Do you want the 2-year warranty? No? OK.” and the high pressure efforts of a car salesman who’s holding your time, and perhaps your car keys, hostage.
The dealerships don’t add much value to the sales process. I’ve gotten them to come down significantly on cars on the lot in the past, and a bit on an order I was going to place, but the amount of effort that goes into that and the fact that they don’t just advertise their best price is frustrating. And don’t get me started on the games they play moving things around their 4-square.
As to dealers vs stores, one difference is generally that most brands are available at most stores of a type. I can go to Walmart, Fred Meyer, Costco, or Winco and get Oreos or Doritos or whatever. I don’t go to my local Oreo store, check the prices, and drive to the one a couple towns over. Some of that is the protections auto dealers get, some of it is the value difference, but it’s a pretty different situation. The other major difference is that I can order a lot of other items direct from the manufacturer OR in stores, while cars tend to be forced through a dealer. If I want an iPhone, I can buy from Apple, Best Buy, my cell service provider, or wherever. While there is limited competition between dealers of a particular brand, the option to order direct wouldn’t really hurt that and might encourage dealers to do better.
Oh, and I forgot about the crap I keep running across with dealers insistent that any order needs a bunch of extra accessories, too. “Yeah, we can do MSRP. Just select which add-ons you want.”
I don’t consider emails or calls in advance to be a ton of work but YMMV of course. It’s rare for me not to go into a dealership already knowing the price I’m going to pay, and I’m always ready to walk if any BS is attempted. I don’t stand for a 4 square or add-ons, I communicate my expectations up front and tell them I can be the easiest sale they make that day, or no sale at all.
As for your comparison, it’s silly to drive around town for Oreos, I agree. But when one place is cheaper than another for an identical product, I generally go there. Just like with a car dealer though, I don’t need to physically visit each place to know who’s the cheapest. Whether from an ad they mail me or online pricing, I generally have a good idea what I’m going to pay for any product over a nominal amount before going into the store.
It’s not that I’m opposed to direct sales as a concept, I’m just not sold on its utility to me personally, and I’m skeptical of it saving money for a reasonably well-informed shopper. To follow from your example, the carriers usually have better deals on iPhones than Apple does.
The number of car dealers that still won’t offer pricing unless you come in is still far too high. And the carriers, unlike the dealers, tend to carry all the major brands, offering deals on each at different times (and advertising those deals, rather than making you negotiate for them).
Offering direct sales gives more options. For the cell phone example, I sometimes purchase direct from Samsung. They often have sales that are as good as the providers, depending on your priorities. The last one I purchased was very slightly more than I could have gotten it elsewhere, but also came with enough credit on other products to buy a good tablet, which made the overall deal pretty solid for me, since I did not have a tablet, but wanted one.
I think my ideal dealership would provide test drives and order what you want. In a perfect world, you could have dealerships offering a lot of brands, rather than just a couple. Go somewhere you can test drive a Blazer, Explorer, Sorento, CR-V, and Sequoia all at once, then order what you want. And, yeah, you could shop around, but they’d all have a smooth order process.
As it stands, knowing that I could configure exactly what I want without them pulling any crap would be of value. Including in negotiations. Well, you’re offering $500 off, but you want me to add $1000 of paint protection? No, I can order from the manufacturer.
Perhaps I’ve been lucky in my dealership experiences. But I’ve bought seven new cars in my life and have another one on order right now, and I’ve never had a truly bad dealership experience, or a situation that couldn’t be easily resolved by a quick discussion. I’ve never had keys held hostage, I’ve never been met with an optional add-on that couldn’t be dealt with by a firm “no thanks” and most importantly I’ve never let myself be at the mercy of a dealer I couldn’t walk away from at any point.
Maybe that’s why I find other people’s utter disgust at the dealership experience so baffling. The average person is only going to be there a few times in their life, and yet so many seem to treat it like the worst experience of their lives.
Admittedly, I have not dealt with the worst. But I have definitely been jerked around a few times. And I think Kia and Hyundai have some of the worst dealers, which hasn’t helped. I got excited about the Tucson/Sportage PHEV, but not excited enough to buy it without the tax credit or with a surprise markup (glad they told me before I drove 8 hours, but still angry about Team Hyundai of Bend, OR).
I’ve walked out on more dealers than I have purchased from, often because they insist on getting contact information before I have agreed to purchase, but quite a few times it has been because they started trying to jerk me around.
With a credit score over 800, I know I qualify for the lowest interest rate, so at least I know I can stop one of their squares in negotiations. But they still try stuff. Advertised prices quickly disappear on their sheets. They try saying they have to include key replacement services or whatever else. They can get you something sooner, but it’s gonna have more options and cost more money. It’s not fun. I used to be okay trying to get a good deal, but it’s just frustration now. Especially since pretty much every manufacturer has inflated invoice price to try to minimize the damage of an informed consumer.
I bought a Civic several years ago and told the guy what price I wanted. He got close and lowballed my trade. He then offered more for my trade to get the deal there. I told him that he had now offered enough for my trade that he’d get that if he got the price I wanted. I should have probably just walked, but he got there. The Honda dealerships around me turned out to be the worst dealerships for service knowledge, which made it even worse.
You also have to keep the segments that you’re shopping in in mind. You’re purchasing extremely expensive collector cars. When a customer that intends to drop six figures on a rare car is present in a showroom they’re going to be treated differently than someone who’s looking to finance a 30k car. The potential sale to you is the equivalent of 2-4 or so regular sales. They’re obviously going to roll out the red carpet for you when you’re ordering a Blackwing, whereas the person who’s coming in to ask about the 2012 Camry on the lot that was traded in isn’t as much of a priority.
A lot of people on this site (myself included) have had terrible experiences when trying to buy normal cars…because at that point you’re just a number…not to mention any enthusiast is exponentially more informed than someone with a 600 credit score who’s rolling in and needs a car today because they just totaled theirs. The dealerships know they can offer a car to that person at over asking financed at 17% APR and they’ll take it….whereas an enthusiast will walk out over $500.
So I think part of it is that we’re well informed/not pushovers compared to the average shopper, but I still know that you’ll get preferential treatment because you’re coming in to drop $100,000 in cash….or maybe you finance, it’s not really my business, not to mention I’m not one of those jabronis who just automatically resents everyone that has more money to spend than I do…but you get the point.
Every car I’ve bought new has been from a mass market brand, and apart from the Viper or maybe my truck none have been particularly expensive. The only car I’ve paid cash for new was a 2017 Ford Fiesta.
Ironically, attempting to order a Blackwing has been among my worst dealer experiences.
The only time I’ve had my keys held hostage by a dealer was when I tried to buy a PART from service. They insisted I let them check it out to make sure the other shop wasn’t trying to pull one over on me then didn’t want to let me leave until I let them do the work for 3x the labor rate. I had to start screaming at them in the middle of the showroom before they finally let me go. Never went there again of course.
I’ve had lots of good dealership experiences and that was the only bad one, but those bad apples are still out there and hoo boy do they put you off of all dealers when they happen.
It’s often lost in the “Dealers Bad!” discussion that most of what we buy is purchased through dealers, and nobody cares. I’m not here to defend shady car dealers — I’ve got no skin in the game. But I’m also not so naive to think that all the problems would magically go away if unscrupulous dealership employees were suddenly employed by the manufacturer instead.
As for the question of whether I want to buy my next new car from a dealership or a manufacturer, I don’t care as long as I get a good value.
I’ve purchased produce both from the “manufacturer” (farmer’s market) and a “dealer” (grocery store). I’ve purchased computers both from the manufacturer directly (HP’s website) and a computer dealer (Best Buy). I’ve purchased furniture both from the manufacturer and from a dealer (furniture store). I’ve noticed no discernible difference in experience between the dealer purchases and the manufacturer-direct options. It doesn’t matter.
“most of what we buy is purchased through dealers”
Sorry, no.
Hardly anything you buy is purchased through a legally protected monopoly. Almost anybody can up and decide to be the person that is going to try and sell you most of the stuff you purchase. But in most states car dealers have special permission to abuse you without fear of upstart competition.
Sorry, no. That’s not what I said. I never claimed that most of what you buy is “purchased through a legally protected monopoly.”
But since you brought it up, I agree that it’s unfair to have legislation blocking manufacturers from selling their own products. If Ford wants to open their own corporate-owned sales outlets, they should be allowed to do so — just like I can buy an iPhone directly from Apple or through an “iPhone dealer” like the cell phone carriers or electronics stores. Cars shouldn’t be treated any differently.
I just don’t believe that there would be a significant difference in the buying experience as a result. You’d still have good ones and bad ones. Permitting manufacturer sales is good for competition, which is good for the customer in the long run, but it’s no silver bullet that’ll solve all the frustrations associated with buying a car. There’s already competition among dealers, and that hasn’t driven all of the bad ones out of business; I can’t expect the addition of one more competitor (even a powerful one in the manufacturer) to be a panacea.
Disagree here. This is a false equivalency. Just because retailers sit between you and the manufacturer, doesn’t mean they are “dealers”. There is an entire legal framework enabling car dealers that simply does not apply to the BestBuys or Walmarts of the world (and not just in the US).
Walmart won’t get away with agreeing on a price and then jacking it up because “market adjustment”.
Saying “dealers” and “retailers” are the same is like saying that a bicycle is technically a tank, because both are vehicles.
I would happily work directly with the manufacturer. While not all dealerships are bad, I’ve been through the process of buying both new and used cars enough to know I’m going to be wasting a day there. When we leased my wife’s Passport in 2020 the dealership wasn’t all that busy, we filled out the paperwork on a tablet, talked with the finance guy for maybe 20 min and yet we still spent 2 to 3 hours at the dealership.
I second that. Picking out a car, test driving, negotiating a price can be done in an hour. Credit approval is almost instantaneous. The hard part is waiting two or more hours to talk to the one finance manager on duty whose job is to squeeze more money out of you, and they’re willing to spend all day doing it.
Having recently attempted to order two different vehicles through dealers, I’d much rather order via a manufacturer. Dealers routinely seem to have no idea what the order process even looks like, make promises they may or may not know they can’t/won’t keep, and just add an extra layer of frustration.
I’ve long said that dealers should become service centers and showrooms, prioritizing ordering and maintaining the car you want instead of selling whatever they have.
That’s how I wish it worked. I already know what I want before setting a foot in the showroom. I don’t need to waste time rejecting hard sells for vehicles that the dealership ordered too many of and also aren’t even close to what I am interested in. A manufacturer storefront where I can do a test drive is all the brick and mortar time I need.
I dont think having the manufacturers handling orders for the amount of people thousands of dealers handle would work let alone better. In case you didnt know the ordering software a dealer uses is the system required by the manufacturer. And if you think the sale of 1 car is insignificant enough they will ignore you what makes you think your 1 car sale loss would matter to the manufacturer once dealers are lost? Hey i can always go to my local dealer if i order through them but i doubt driving to Detroit would do any good once the manufacturer locks up internet orders than ships ordering and customer service to Bangawhore India. I dont really think i am talking to Chad in Ct.
Nice bit of racism you threw in there at the end. Keep it classy you clown.
The dealers enter the orders into the system used by the manufacturer. If I can enter my order directly, I remove a potential failure point and avoid any delays by the dealer. And having things centralized means I’m not calling a dealer who is calling some manufacturer contact or just claiming to. I’m probably calling someone who can at least look at the queue and say whether mine is going to be delivered this quarter (if I even have to call–there could be a way to see status/ETA online). Whether it’s outsourced or not, since we live in the digital age where information can be accessible from anywhere.
As to the racism, I hope you find yourself in a situation to be forced to interact with an Indian person who is truly your better in every way, and you unlearn some of that while also feeling the shame of being particularly small-minded.