Peugeot and Citroën are one company. Fiat and Chrysler are one company. Actually, all of those companies are one company now. Why not Nissan and Honda? It would make almost too much sense.
I start this morning’s The Morning Dump (ok, by the time it’s done it’ll only be morning in California, but it’s been one of those days) with news that Honda and Nissan are teaming up on electric cars. Given that many markets they’re in will mandate a huge number of electric cars going forward it makes me wonder why they don’t just become one company.
Perhaps it’ll make them more competitive in China? That’ll be important as both BMW and Volkswagen are reporting first-half financials and both are struggling in the Chinese market.
Toyota isn’t struggling as much with profits still going up, thanks in large part to hybrids.
The Case For Honda-Nissan
The Japanese car market was never big enough to support a homegrown industry focused entirely on itself, which is why Japan became the great automotive exporter of the 20th century. You can go anywhere in the world and find a Toyota, Nissan, or Honda product.
China would like this new century to be defined by exports of Chinese cars, and there’s some evidence they may succeed, but I wouldn’t count out Japan just yet. Carmakers there are still profitable, the engineers remain some of the world’s best, and there’s been a renewed effort to prepare for whatever is to come.
For the last two decades, Japanese automakers have slowly started to coalesce. Daihatsu was swallowed whole by Toyota. Then Subaru teamed up with Toyota. Mazda, once it was separated from Ford, also entered a long-term relationship with… Toyota.
Nissan tried to save itself by teaming up with Renault, which worked until it very much didn’t. Mitsubishi almost failed and was appended onto Nissan at the last minute.
Honda is the one Japanese automaker that’s mostly avoided consolidation, but even Honda has had to partner with other companies to survive. The current generation of Honda and Acura electric cars are based on GM-built Ultium platforms. Honda is also planning to build cars with Sony under a new joint venture.
In general, Japanese automakers have lagged in EV development as they’ve pursued hybridization (which has worked) and hydrogenization (which hasn’t yet).
A hesitancy towards electrification has worked to the advantage of Japanese automakers for now, but Japanese car execs don’t seem to believe this is going to last and want to be prepared for a new, electrified future with software-defined vehicles that are judged as much on their interfaces as their driving performance.
To that end, Honda and Nissan announced a major partnership today. From the press release:
Nissan and Honda are engaged in specific discussions and deliberations with a view to collaborating in various fields to further accelerate efforts to realize a carbon-neutral and traffic-accident-free society. Both companies are promoting R&D and investment in various technologies to promote the spread and evolution of EVs, especially SDVs, which are the scope of study in the fields of intelligence and electrification.
The two companies also believe that the software field, including autonomous driving, connectivity, and AI, which will determine the value of vehicles in the future and become a source of competitiveness, is an area where technological innovation is extremely rapid and where synergies can easily be obtained through the fusion of resources from both companies, such as technological knowledge and human resources.
Here’s what really caught my eye:
With the models to be sold globally by Nissan and Honda, the two companies will consider supplementing models from a short-term to medium- to long-term perspective. For the short-term, Nissan and Honda reached a basic agreement on models and regions to be complemented by each company, and also agreed on the outline of a product review system to be jointly operated by both companies.
ICE and EVs are being considered as vehicles for mutual complementation.
That sounds like building cars together to me. And why not? Toyota has a market cap of almost $300 billion. Honda and Nissan, combined, have a market cap of less than $70 billion. Nissan couldn’t make the Renault relationship work because the underlying concept of a Japanese company being owned by the French state was a bridge too far.
A consolidated Nissan and Honda bring engineering and manufacturing scale without the huge culture clash. I also don’t think their products are so similar that they can’t work in concert. Nissan/Mitsubishi have a truck competency that Honda lacks whereas Honda is way better at building hybrids.
This could just be another tie-up. Or it could be the start of a beautiful friendship.
BMW Getting Hosed Because Of China
German companies are coming out with their first half financial reports and they’re nicht gut. Let’s start with BMW (you can read the company’s report here).
Profits are down 8.6% quarter-over-quarter and 14.2% year-over-year. Margin so far this year has dropped to 11.6% from 16.2% at the same point in 2023. Car deliveries are about in line with last year, so what’s happening?
The pandemic shortages have waned and incentives are up, so that doesn’t help, but also… China.
In China, consumer confidence remains low despite the measures implemented by the central government, as a result of which sales were held down to a level below expectations.
BMW thinks it can improve there, assuming there are no retaliatory tariffs. It was fun while it lasted.
VW: We Gotta Cut
Volkswagen (report here) is facing some of the same dilemmas and is hoping to cut its way to better margins as the operating margin hit 6.3% for the first half of the year (though it improved slightly in Q2).
Here’s what CFO/COO Arno Antlitz had to say:
“Our second quarter margin, before restructuring costs and other non-operational factors, came in slightly above our expectations. But what ultimately counts is the reported result. A margin of 6.3% after six months is below our ambitions and potential, given our array of great vehicles, our brand portfolio, and our global footprint. Given the expected product momentum and a solid order book, we confirm our outlook for the full year. However, we must make significant efforts on the cost side in the second half and beyond in order to achieve our targets.”
That sounds like “cut cut cut” to me.
Toyota Is Still Making Money
Toyota is still bringing in big profits in spite of the company’s latest issues, due in large part to hybrids.
From Automotive News:
In the April-June fiscal first quarter, electrified vehicle sales — including standard and plug-in hybrids as well as full electric vehicles — climbed 24 percent to 1.08 million vehicles.
Standard hybrids, exemplified by the Prius, shot up 24 percent to 998,000 vehicles.
Electrified vehicles accounted for 43 percent of the company’s global retail sales in the quarter, up from 34 percent a year earlier. Total global retail sales at Toyota Motor dropped 4.2 percent to 2.64 million vehicles in the quarter.
Gasoline-electric hybrid cars help bolster Toyota’s bottom line because hybrids typically have fatter margins and command higher sticker prices. They are also in high demand as consumers gravitate toward them as a more affordable, more practical alternative to full electric vehicles.
That’s almost a million hybrids a quarter. They’ll get there.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
One more for the Gen-exers. Here’s “Seether” by Veruca Salt.
The Big Question
Could Honda-Nissan work? Am I losing my mind?
Lame, Honda needs to stay far, far, away from Nissan. What are they going to learn, how to make worse CVTs?
Keep your leafs out of my mower!
What does Nissan offer Honda? Manufacturing capacity? Anything else?
At least in the U.S., Nissan’s reputation is in the toilet. Their dealers in my area are advertising the ability offer subprime financing more than any automobile product they offer, like a Hyundai dealer in 1997. The Altima is best known for the being the vehicle most likely to have someone with a suspended license behind the wheel going 75 in a 45. Rogue known for being the de facto keys you get offered at the Avis counter. Infiniti is absolutely worthless as a brand.
Maybe for those of us who remember the 80’s, 90’s when badass 5-speed Maxima SEs were roaming the streets, hardbody trucks were doing basic truck stuff and tuner stuff, and we lusted after Skyline GT-Rs in Gran Turismo 2, Nissan still has some nostalgia value, but it doesn’t mean I am buying a modern one.
This rings so true and it saddens my heart.
I loved Nissan through the 80’s and 90’s: Pulsar NX, Iterations of the Z through the second generation 300Z, Truck (That’s how the glossy brochure referred to it in 1995 as a proper noun before it gained the Frontier moniker), the 240SX, the 4DSC Maxima and of course the practical Sentra and Stanza.
They have made nothing since 2000 that excites me in any way including the GT-R.
Hell yeah! I had a early 90s maxima SE with the sweet gold 4DSC stickers on the side glass. Remember the “4 door sports car” marketing? That car is still better then anything Nissan makes currently. The seats were softer than sitting on a bag of baby ducks but it ate motor mounts like they were tires.
Probably just market share and manufacturing capacity. Maybe the best thing Nissan would have to offer would be to simply disappear so that Honda could take over their market share.
But who will be left to build cars to be sold at 23% APY?
Stellantis.
Don’t forget the Sentra SE-R. I bought a ’91 as my first new car, and loved it. Now, I actively avoid all Nissans in the rental lot.
It could work. If you expand the world map passed the greater North American market. Nissan has something Honda wants, that sweet European market. And together they get to Toyota numbers in China. Nissan also seems to be in multiple smaller markets that Honda has a limited presence in, your UAEs and Chiles type places. Nissan also has a much deeper product line and different chassis other then a FWD platform. Honda, in turn has a North American market. Between Nissan and Honda, people are really overstating the difference in build quality. Both of the companies have been taking a downward spiral in quality since 2004. Honda just so happens to be using the same engines since then, so not as noticeable.
The real problem is the whole non-car part of Honda. I can’t imagine they would be enthralled by creating a bemouth new boss, who spent their studying the fine art of CUVs, and is now telling you how to make a lawn mower.
NOOOOOOOOO! LEAVE HONDA ALONE! They’re perfectly good at doing their own thing. We don’t need to soil them with Nissan and their godforsaken CVTs, Big Altima Energy, “if you have a pulse you have a car” financing, whatever the fuck Infiniti is in 2024, et cetera. Let them be Honda and never speak of this sinful idea again!
Re: BMW-does this mean maybe they can stop letting the Chinese market dictate their design choices then? I’ve read in a lot of different places that the horrific disease that’s spreading across their lineup is due to the Chinese market, which general wants the loudest, most ostentatious designs possible when it comes to luxury products.
Apparently that’s how we wound up with war crimes like the XM, iX, 4 Series, 7 Series, etc. If it’s not working over there anymore maybe they can….I don’t know, stop beating their cars with an ugly stick? I was behind an iX the other day and it looks just as disgusting today as it did at launch. Or maybe they could make the beaver teeth grilles a dealer installed option that’s exclusive to the Chinese market?
That being said you can currently lease an i4 M50i for $599 a month. I know it’s hideous not a real M car but that’s a 500+ horsepower, 270 mile range luxury EV with one of the best interiors in the industry. It’s an absurd amount of car for that price.
Ugh, I hate modern consolidation so much. Typically everyone loses, especially the consumer.
But this makes me go from vomiting a wee bit into my mouth to full-on heave city. Honda and NISSAN??? What the hell would Honda get out of that? Sadness? Worse CVTs? Worse… everything?
Nissan is far gone enough at this point that I would rather they just go away versus merge with anyone. And I’m not even that high on Honda right now! But for the love of God, please don’t suggest that Honda have anything to do with Nissan. Gross. Just gross.
Hot take headline is definitely going to burn you in the comments.
If two Japanese companies should merge it’s Mazda+Subaru or Mazda+Honda
I like the Mazda + Honda idea!
The issue with the H+M combo is that Mazda is trying to be Acura right now so it’s not the best match up. They need to push Acura waaaaaaaaaaay up market as a Lexus competitor with dedicated platforms and Mazda/Honda would be the mainstream/premium brand experience.
Hmmm… maybe that would be the impetus for them to. Push Acura upmarket, let Mazda take the premium.
In any case, it’s still better than a Honda/Subaru partnership. For one, Honda is putting its money where its mouth is, emissions & sustainability-wise, while Subaru is content with green-washing/rainbow-washing their products to cover up outdated and relatively inefficient drivetrains while siding with Cheeto Benito’s attempts to roll back emissions and fuel economy standards.
Sounds nice at first, but I think the two are too similar to each other for either party to really get anything out of it.
Shut your hole, that’s bringing Honda down more than just a peg or two.
No no no no no, I want none of the burning pile that is Nissan any where near my beloved Honda!
I don’t think Honda and Nissan make sense together, they’re set up too much as direct competitors, the halves of the combined company would just overlap each other rather than compliment, too much duplication. They obviously see value in a lot of partnerships and joint ventures, which is fine, but on a case by case basis where it makes sense, without being stuck together for everything else that doesn’t make sense
I’m going to disagree on Honda and Nissan being one company for two reasons:
1. Nissan really doesn’t bring anything to the table that would improve Honda’s lineup.
2. They are both very big companies. Two big companies merging rarely ends up benefitting anyone but the investors, with very harmful side effects for consumers and employees.
Nissan could buy into Honda’s hybrid tech (though Mitsu’s PHEV tech is there too), and could be more channels for Nissan to distribute EVs (next ZDX/Prologue switch to Ariya platform?). It does seem like Honda doesn’t have as much to gain, but I think the benefit to them is more global in shared development and/or increased production volumes. Honda and Acura sell in greater volumes than Nissan and Infiniti here, but in other markets like Europe and Australia, they seem to be a much smaller player. Not saying Nissan is massive in those, but they do seem to generally have more of a presence and have two top-10 sellers in the UK. Nissan doesn’t have to do as much development and production, Honda can produce and distribute more cars in even if they’re not hitting the road with an H on the front.
Geez talk about brand dilution, guess which one takes the big hit.
I’m more worried about when the Altima drivers transition to Accords.
I think we should actually have more companies, rather than fewer. The constant consolidation of major companies into larger and larger entities is dangerous and unhealthy.
I think you’re crazy, Honda/Nissan teaming up would be like Ford/Chevy teaming up, they have nearly identical product lines and global presence, except Nissan’s a little worse than Honda and Infiniti’s a little pricier(better?) than Acura.
Honda needs something like a GM, who have almost no cars, and they can provide at least like 1 car to, and get the EVs and trucks and things in return.
Nissan needs to be sold off to somebody to just make a couple legacy models like the Z and…ok I guess that’s it. Like how BMW does with Mini.
“Seether” the song = Great
Seether the band = Shit
Veruca Salt the Band = Great
Veruca Salt the Character = Shit
Thank you for reminding me that Seether the Band existed.
/s
I respectfully disagree. Not only do I enjoy Seether’s music, after having attending a large number of concerts, they are some of the best sounding live musicians I’ve ever heard. Their live performances, while boring to watch, are album quality to listen to.
I don’t know, Honda is pretty good and we wouldn’t want any Renault ich to get on it.
I think the current Accord has a French vibe to the exterior design. That’s about all the French I want in my Honda’s.
I can see that, especially in the profile.
I feel like Nissan is going to ruin Honda’s reputation with their awful build quality, low quality buyers, and Jatco CVT’s. Nissan is a bit of a curse.
I don’t have any data to base this on but I feel like Hondissan would be great for Nissan and not-so-great for Honda. Kinda like DaimlerChrysler helped Chrysler more than Mercedes.
I was thinking the same. Honda has very little to gain from this, Nissan has a lot.
Wholeheartedly agree that Nissan would have everything to gain and Honda everything to lose in a merger of those 2. Gotta admit though I’m trying to wrap my brain around how DaimlerChrysler helped Chrysler more than Mercedes? That “merger of equals” was a sham from day one. The Chrysler part of the merger was cost cut til we got every car that was trashed in the automotive press for crap quality in order to pump all that sweet money into Mercedes. Chrysler basically got a couple scraps in the form an at the time last gen SLK as the Crossfire and last gen E-class suspension subframes for the LX cars. Daimler basically mugged Chrysler stabbing it several times, left it to bleed out and die while giving it back its now empty wallet.
Tha main problem with Honda | Nissan is the target market/audience for the vehicles.
I think Nissan would have to do a lot of work to repair the image they have as the brand for anyone with bad credit who can’t find anyone to sell them a car elsewhere.
Honda has crafted an image that is more upscale even if I think they haven’t lived up to that since the mid 90s, image does count for a lot with the non-enthusiast buyers.
I think that image of Nissan only exists within car enthusiasts, who aren’t interested in most of what Nissan’s selling anyway. The general public either has no clue of that rep, or, if anything, has a positive association with the brand because Japanese
I don’t hate it. A new NSX with a GT-R36 engine? That could be fun. Though I guess the GT-R is supposedly going all EV, so maybe not. Though the NSX with the new Z engine tuned up a bit could be fun too.
theoretically possible: GT-R / NSX godzilla mashup
possible reality: Hondas, but built to Nissan quality with Nissan CVTs
Ew. You’re not wrong, but still. Ew.
I am having feelings working through this Honda Nissan alliance you are suggesting.
Some people here will hate me for saying this, but I think Honda-GM complement each other nearly perfectly and have less overlap than any other pair of major automakers.
GM – Trucks, large SUVs, performance sedans & coupes, EVs.
Honda – Mainstream sedans, small/medium CUVs, minivans, hybrids.
A merger would probably sacrifice one of Acura and Buick’s product ranges and a couple overlapping CUV models but would otherwise leave everything else as-is, while shedding costs and allowing shared engineering.
Sorry Nissan, you’re too far gone.
I can’t be the only one who would want to see the Camaro follow the Corvette into mid-engine form and be reborn with a CTR powertrain behind the driver.
That would make a nice platform for a revived NSX as well…
I almost suggested the C8 as the basis for a new NSX, but I honestly don’t know how you improve on what Chevy has already done with the range of powertrain options there.
But if they found a way, I’d be excited to see it!
It doesn’t have to be an improvement, just a reinterpretation. Like the Supra and Z4, different versions of the same thing. But yeah I’m not sure with the myriad C8 variants that they have left enough room for another.
Based on what I know of Honda’s philosophy I can’t imagine they would stick with a V8. It would be a turbo 6 or maybe even a turbo 4/hybrid combo.
Now that I’m talking about it, Honda could use that new hybrid Vette that’s coming and maybe offer some hybrid expertise to make them even better.
The Eray? It’s already on sale and uses a V8 lol.
As I understand it though, the hybrid system is highly biased toward performance and not efficiency. So a 50 mpg hybrid NSX or something would be a cool niche to build off the platform.
Yeah, that’s what I was referring to, Honda would make it their own presumably. The hard core crowd would stick with the Vette but there is something to be said for a milder, more luxury oriented vehicle on the same platform. I guess I would sort of put Acura a step up in lux. Corvette sits a bit above most other Chevy products so their positioned fairly similarly, just an entirely different approach.
I think an upmarket Corvette would work better as a Cadillac. I know they already tried that, but at the time Cadillac was not the same entity as it is today. I think a Honda based on the C8 platform would have to go down market. I don’t know if the GM insiders would like an Acura to outrank the Corvette
Only way to improve it would be to introduce a third pedal, in my humblest of opinions.
I think they could trim some of the fat, make it less of a GT and more of a true sports car. Give it a stick as an option, maybe a turbo 4 or 6, less luxury, (slightly) less money.
NSX would do better on the Corvette platform.
Fair point, but if Corvette and Camaro were both mid-rear I don’t see them using two different platforms for it. Those back seats in the Camaro would become vestigial in nature much like the 911 if they went that way.
As Brandon states below, there’s probably not a lot of market for mid engine sports cars though so if this did come to pass it’s more likely Honda would use the Corvette platform for an NSX as you state.
Very true. I think that further kills the appeal, if the rear seats are unusable, then it’s just a corvette. Though Toyota has both the 86 and Supra, both are essentially 2 seaters just very different cars, I suppose you could do the same here, but the vette is already covering such a wide price spread, and I don’t know that they could make a Camaro based on it cheap enough to make it appeal to anyone.
There’s not a big enough market for mid engine sports cars for Chevy to be able to sell 2. And there have only been like 3 cars ever with 2+2 and a mid engine layout, it’s just awkward for packaging most of the time, so no. I have zero interest in seeing a mid engine Camaro. If they bring it back it should be a 4 seat EV sports car
Might as well leave it dead then.
I would love to see a 4 seat sports EV on the market, even better if it’s a convertible, but not until weights come down. No one wants a 4000lb small sports car. So yeah, leave it dead for a while at least.
But from literally any other company sure.
I don’t think both of them have to be Corvette sized, one of them could be like a Fierro or MR2. I would be happier with the smaller version than something Corvette sized.
This was indeed my intention.
If it ruffles less feathers to call it a Fiero, that’s fine too.
Then front-mid-engined, like TVRs. Super long hoods. Call it the Camadorado.
Dude, Honda GM would be epic. Honda Nissan…… ummmmmm
GM-Honda is a paring that could make sense but a Stellantis-Nissan combination would be the burning wreckage we all couldn’t look away from.
I’m pretty sure Nissan’s board has developed a long-term case of Francophobia.
It will be completely different this time, I swear!
they had partnerships going all the way back. I don’t really recall details, but the Saturn Vue Redlines used Honda V6s. I am not really sure what Honda got back from GM.
I wonder if it was related to Honda getting those Isuzu SUVs to rebadge way back in the 90s?
i really need to lay off the booze ’cause i can’t remember important stuff like this anymore 🙂
And Isuzu got Honda sedans to sell in Japan. Ball is back in your court, GM.
A lot of people specify the Red Lines, but all V6 VUEs from 04-07 used the Honda J35.
IIRC Honda got diesels from GM to use in exchange until they developed their own diesel. Acuras also offered OnStar in that timeframe.
This pairing makes a ton of sense and would be very successful. Buick would be a minor sacrifice.
Do I like it? No. Could I come around to it? Maybe. Is it better than anyone getting Nissan-stink on them. Absolutely.
I think that’s an excellent argument.
I’ve also long felt (over decades) that Honda/BMW would make sense. I’m not as convinced that’s still true, but they both do engines and suspensions brilliantly, and BMW has the electric thing down in ways Honda doesn’t.
It seems to me the danger is that GM would ruin Honda from above, while Nissan would do so from below.
I’ll preface that I’m strongly against merging household names and I’m still skeptical of such a sushi-burger fusion, because one flavor is bound to overpower the offerings but like… you’re not wrong in that this is compelling.
The idea of being able to work on an American NSX is making me giddy.
Nissan needs help from someone. Honda will be it’s venture capitalist.
Honda must be desperate to break into that lucrative “sub-prime reckless driver” market that no one else is after.
On my way into work this morning I saw a car going the wrong way down the street. You’ll never guess what make it was.
That is the strong brand identity that Honda clearly wants to tap into.
Ah, Veruca Salt. Haven’t thought about them in a while. My band in college was briefly called Augustus Gloop because of them.
I remember it became a game for us to come up with something every time the chorus came around. Don’t panel with cedar. Get a cat and feed her. I’m not a repeater (repeated 3 times). etc.
I still do this (and have this song come up on my music streaming fairly often). “Don’t panel with cedar” is a pretty great choice for it.