Last night Tesla showed off a number of future products, including the autonomous two-door, two-passenger “Cybercab.” The company promises to sell the car for $30,000, offering owners a chance to be driven around in a steering wheel-less car with two Lamborghini-style doors and camera-based AV software that promises to drop you off at your destination. There are a number of elements about the Cybercab that any self-respecting journalist should be skeptical about, but right now I want to focus on one thing: How does a two-passenger cab make any sense? Well, it just might.
Here’s a bit from our Cybercab-reveal article:
Tesla headlines the Cybercab as “faster” and “more affordable.” Why? Well, you won’t be paying a human driver to sit in the seat to haul you around. Beyond that, it notes that the design relies solely on cameras for its self-driving ability. Tesla has long eschewed the use of more expensive radar or LIDAR sensors in its autonomous driving program.
Tesla also states you’ll be able to “call it once” and keep the vehicle “as long as needed,” whether you’re taking short trips or using it all day. Contrast that to a contemporary rideshare or taxi, which is only yours for as long as your trip lasts.
And here are a few photos:
The first thing some might say in reply to my headline is: “Well, most of the time a New York taxi cab is only transporting one or two people, anyway; three-wide is tight, and nobody wants to sit up front.” OK, sure. I buy that the average taxi ride probably involves shuttling only one or two folks around. But here’s the thing: I’m not sure I fully understand the benefit of a two-passenger taxi has over a five-passenger. But let’s talk about it.
Let’s have a look at some other taxi cabs from around the world, starting with two of what one could argue are the ultimate. The first is called the Toyota JPN Taxi, and, after riding in one in Hong Kong, I wrote a deep-drive on it earlier this year comparing it to its contemporaries. This is a phenomenal taxi cab layout:
Just look at how perfect the packaging is on this machine. There’s a short hood to house the entire engine/drivetrain, but everything aft of the cowl is passenger space. The rocker panels are low, allowing for easy ingress/egress, and that low floor, combined with a tall roof and an overall boxy shape, maximizes interior volume.
One one side there’s a sliding rear door for when you’re in tight spots, and on the other side there’s a conventional door. There’s tons of interior seating space, with the floor being perfectly flat thanks to a front-drive design:
And look at all the space for cargo:
Have a look at the side profile one more time:
Let’s compare that to one of the other benchmarks in taxicab design, the London Black Taxi, which Matt Hardigree drove, as mentioned in his article “I Drove A London’s Black Taxi And Discovered Why They Are Some Of The Best Purpose-Built Vehicles On Earth.”
The London Electric Vehicle Company (LEVC) “TX” has a seating configuration that’s arguably even more impressive than the Toyota JPN’s. Up front, partitioned off from the rear, is just the driver’s seat; the passenger’s door offers access to a nice flat luggage space:
And then there are not three, but six seats in the back!:
You’ll notice that the overall shapes of the London Black Taxi and the Toyota JPN are similar, and that’s because this footprint maximizes the ratio of interior volume to footprint — a key metric in cities that are already jam-packed with cars. Whats more, both designs offer excellent wheelchair access.
Especially relative to the best taxi cabs out there, it seems to me that the Tesla Cybercab design really doesn’t make any sense. Here’s what transporting five people would look like using Cybercabs:
Here’s what it’d look like using a London cab:
That doesn’t seem to make sense, but let’s talk about it some more.
Even if you look at the Cybercab as a private car and not an actual taxi, it’s definitely cool looking, and if it can drive itself, that’s amazing. But the market for two-passenger vehicles is so small. Typically two-passenger cars are sports cars, and you know what people typically enjoy doing to sports cars? Driving them.
So this isn’t going to take the place of a sports car, it’s not going to work as a family car, and as a taxi cab it would probably work for most taxi rides, but does it offer a significant benefit over a four-door taxi cab with a similar footprint? I mean, maybe it’s lighter and more aerodynamic, but how much of a consumption delta is there really between this and, say, a car shaped like a five-passenger Prius? And is that Vehicle Demand Energy delta associated with this sleek shape going to outweigh the fact that you now need multiple of these to transport groups of three or more?
I’m honestly curious about this. It’s likely that most taxi rides limit their efficiency by some amount by offering too much space when only one or two people are usually being transported. Why carry around extra weight and cost when you usually don’t have to? But most of an electric vehicle’s weight and cost is in its batteries, so upon first glance, I’m really not seeing how a five-passenger design isn’t the better call, here. If this were a tandem car, then I get it — two seats reduce the frontal area (though aerodynamics really only dominates at higher speeds, and I’d guess most taxis drive an average of 30 mph or so). But this? I’m curious if Tesla had some data to back up why this makes sense:
It doesn’t even look that small (in part, because a somewhat-long wheelbase is going to be needed for batteries). And if it’s a two-seater just to save money, surely scissor doors aren’t the move, right?
I’m always careful not to just knee-jerk react to Elon Musk creations, because that happens far too often in media. But I do have to call out when I don’t understand something, and I’m a bit confused here. Surely Elon Musk — a man who is all about optimization — has data to prove that this is optimal, right?
Then again, the Cybertruck is far from an “optimal” truck design, but it’s actually useful, and it fits into a category of vehicle for which there is lots of demand. But the Cybercab? It seems both suboptimal as a taxi and limited in its appeal as a private vehicle.
Maybe there’s no point in talking about the overall design when the whole thing relies on a car being able to drive itself — something that isn’t possible yet for the vast majority of the country.
Update: I called fellow engineer Huibert Mees just now to chat about this. He buys that a two-door design could offer significant cost and weight advantages, and if most cab rides are just shuttling around one or two people, that could mean it’s theoretically a better tool for the job the majority of the time. But it’s not clear whether the cost and weight and whatever incremental aero benefits (and again, aero really only dominates at highway speeds) outweigh the practical detriment of not being able to carry more than two people.
What’s more, the technically correct answer isn’t always the actually correct answer, as human beings are irrational. Maybe most people commute to work by themselves, but they still want to have room for four in case friends or grandchildren or whoever come over. Ditto with cab companies, who might rather have a single car that can do more.Then there are people who have larger families, and on and on — you can see how a two-passenger car might have limited appeal.
The result is that a two-passenger vehicle could theoretically end up being more expensive than a four-door simply because its volume limits is ability to reduce cost to the same degree. It could fall short in economies of scale. So at that point, you’ve got a car that’s more expensive, maybe negligibly slipperier through the air, and definitely lighter, but perhaps not to the point where it matters that much.
Again, this is all just theory, and again, you’d hope that someone ran the calculations: That they basically calculated the efficiency gain of going with a two-door versus a four-door, considered what percentage of cab rides involve more than two people, and ultimately determined that it’s more efficient to go with the lighter two-door design and to occasionally send two cars for parties of more than two.
Oh, and it’s worth noting: That comparison to current taxi cabs above only makes a little bit of sense, because naturally a two-passenger human-piloted vehicle isn’t going to suffice unless there’s just one client, and they’d have to sit up front next to all the equipment. A two-door cab makes way more sense on a self-driving car than on a human-driven one, even if it’s not 100% clear that it makes the most amount of sense over, say, a similarly-short four-door. I’d love to see the data on all this.
It’s also worth noting that Rimac has a similar two-passenger taxi concept, with Car and Driver describing the reasoning in its story:
Unlike many other futuristic visions for self-driving pods, the Verne seats just two passengers. Verne says its data revealed that nine out of 10 rides are for just one or two people, so this layout lets them satisfy most customers while creating a capacious cabin in a compact footprint. Without mentioning a specific model, Verne claims it has more interior room than a Rolls-Royce.
Of course, Verne looks like a smaller one-box design, though it’s hard to be sure how exact dimensions compare:
I’m always a few days late to the conversation, but as an actual cab, this makes complete sense. Conventional cabs, like the illustrious Crown Vic, are effectively a 2, or 3 if you get cozy, seat cab. If you have groups, like airport rides with a family of 4-6, you call a van or shuttle bus.
These could easily replace common short stop yellow cabs and frankly would be much more enjoyable. Obvious question as always is if the tech will actually work to make that possible.
Strictly speaking on the design, 8/10, would be a nice place to spend 20 minutes in NYC.
It’s all well and good to discuss logic, motivations, etc, but… Look at the Cybertruck. This is a company that’s not driven by logical decisions a lot of the time. What was the motivation for the swoopy 2-door? I think we all know his name.
Incidentally, I think this would be a cool 2 seater electric sports car (with the ability for a human to drive it).
It makes perfect sense as a prop for the demo world we live in. The future being forever just around the corner but never quite arriving or arriving in a disappointing manner when it does. None of the stuff showed off at this show is real or will happen as presented. Its the perfect companion to the mechanical turk robots they also had running around them.
I think Tesla is going for something experiential with this design to kick off a new taxi business. If it ends up showing promise and metrics suggest they’re losing market share not having options for more seating / cargo space, it’s not like they couldn’t or wouldn’t then add additional cab styles. The main question is whether the business model is going to be viable (time will tell), not whether this first cab design is ideal. I suspect it’s going to be fine for testing the waters.
Do we really have to talk about it, EVERY time Tesla does something, that sounds stupid? That’s what they want us to do 🙁
Seems like they use the same PR strategy as that fat old guy with the orange face
It doesn’t make sense when you actually do the math. The batteries are going to weigh 1,100 pounds either way. Adding an additional 300 pounds to the weight won’t impact beyond single digit percentages because the final vehicle as a bare shell minus doors and windows and wheels will still weigh 3,600 pounds. Cutting the Kammback for a traditional upright cabin won’t get it any worse than a 0.40 CoD rating, so it’s just as unimportant as the weight. Most of these are going to be going below 45MPH, because they’ll be used to connect from the airport to hotels, or from isolated locations (so called “pedestrian islands”) to public transport. The major thing is this won’t be used on highways. It will be accelerating from a dead stop quite often. In that context, the motor design and voltage/amp rating are much more important than the weight or the coefficient of drag, because initial current draw will absolutely trash a battery’s charge. That’s what normal people are discovering with electric vehicles now as they do rocket launches from stoplights like animals.
This is just stupid marketing from a stupid man.
Elon would do much better to Lop off the roof, and add a Playstation controller to the dash and call it the new Roadster – though I feel like he would try to sell it for 100K just because he is a money grab specialist.
Another comment got me thinking here…….I think the semantics of using cab or taxi matters. I see the comments full of people saying “when I take a cab/taxi, it is usually just me.” And I concur, cab or taxi, I’m usually alone.
But change cab/taxi to rideshare? Suddenly the context has changed. For rideshares I’m often at 2 or more people. By calling it a cab, I think Tesla is intentionally differentiating it from what most of us use instead of cabs now to justify the two seat configuration.
At the same time, this could blow up in their face. Taxis are much more regulated than rideshare and I guarantee you the New York Taxi Workers Alliance (amongst many others) is already preparing to take the legal fight to Tesla if they try to launch as a “taxi” service.
Another article to not really discuss kids. Even with one adult, a car seat would have to go in the “front” which would require airbag deactivation and other aspects. When my family of five takes trip to the airport, one kid has to ride by themselves.
That said, I’m usually one to rail against people buying massive pickups because they might get a boat one day, so maybe a two seater cab as part of a larger fleet mix isn’t such a bad thing.
Some two-seaters in the mix could conceivably make sense (possibly), but then only if they optimize the design around those two seats instead of making a regular car without a rear seat. Any weight increase could easily be offset by not giving it stupid doors.
Looks like a repurposed design from another idea, but I am just a moron on the internet. The shortcomings are inexcusable for a public taxi. The only message they got was big trunk.
Of course it doesn’t make any sense, since Melon Husk and his stans are delusional. cYbErCrApCaB and all EV’s are ugly trash on fire
Gasoline forever!
I hope Cybercab has a USB port so I can plug in my Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback wheel and pedals.
That would certainly be an upgrade from the standard kit.
Other than a hotel to airport shuttle, which can range from a mini-van to a full on bus, I’ve rarely taken a cab or ride share with more than two people, usually solo. I’m not a representative sample, and have never lived in a place like NYC where cabs are so common (at least on TV), but I have traveled pretty frequently over the years. Makes sense to me as a customer, not sure it does from a fleet perspective as others have mentioned.
It kinda makes sense as an alternative to renting a car as a solo traveler or with a partner, but yeah in places like NYC you have families who need transport and this just can’t do that, and that’s weird. I mean a family of like 7 is probably used to having to find alternatives to cabs but the fact that two parents and a kid can’t take these cabs is truly bizarre.
Having come earlier to the thread, and now back, hundreds of comments, title change, and post update later, I’d just add two points:
I can’t help but think about a “modernized” BMW Isetta as a blueprint for a three-passenger robotaxi design, as long as the “slight” issue with front-crash protection were solved …
I am 94.2% sure this is really the new entry-level $25,000 model that people were calling the Model 2. Everything about it suggests a significantly cost cut design vs the Model 3 – cheaper seats, no glass roof, no back seats (so less airbags, seatbelts, crash structure), probably less seat adjustment, and I’ll bet it originally had a smaller dash screen back when it still had a steering wheel
Musk scrapped the “Model 2” project when it was at a very late stage of development, then they roll this out not too long after.
If Tesla is valued as an automaker, then there’s no way to justify their current market cap based on actual sales and market share, to keep the stock price up, he has to convince Wall Street that they’re really a tech company like Apple or Alphabet (a tech company that just happens to generate 81+% of its revenue making and selling cars, but don’t worry about that). Musk is getting more sensitive to that problem as they face stronger competition from other automakers in the EV space and as their existing products age, so he’s doing more desperate things to create that tech company veneer and keep the stock up, obviously concluded a robotaxi would do that better than a 2 seater economical commuter car.
This is the cancelled Model 2 gussied up a bit and spun as if it’s something else. It also appears that Wall Street might be seeing through the charade on this one
I agree Tesla Taxi isn’t a one size fits all. But I would think it is one size fits most. I think taxis are more 1~2 passengers plus cargo than multiple passenger limited cargo. I mean 6 seats and space for 3 small suitcases? No bueno. The Tesla looks like cargo space for a couple going somewhere, airport to hotel, regular trip easier to autopilot. And the six passengers are crammed and even with fewer you got the six formed seats so uncomfortable, can I get a bench seat? And I still don’t understand how an EV taxi needing longer charger times keeps operating 24 hours a day. I guess if you buy 150% of what you need it works. At least until you have to ship them across state lines for months for repairs. Or has Tesla fixed the towing and local repair issues?
The fact that you can’t put a family of 3 in one of these is unforgiveable. You can try to justify this with the fact that most cab rides move one or two people, but having zero flexibility beyond that is just silly.
I think the reason it isn’t making sense to you is because you’re thinking like an engineer, and not from a marketing perspective.
Tesla/Elon used to be more conservative in terms of design, look at the first Model S’s with the blacked out, fake grille area. It didn’t NEED one but they had probably run a few design options based consumer insight groups, and the consensus was probably “yeah it looks weird without a grill”, so they added one.
The updated S and Model 3 came out and the big statement was “Grills are old; we don’t even need them”, which was polarizing at first.
I think what Elon discovered around this time period was the power of polarizing design. See: Cybertruck. It would have made way more sense to do something like Rivian, but by then that’s what people expected so Elon pushed to make extremely polarizing, which generates press, reactions, social media engagement, articles, etc. Think of how much CT content has been produced purely because of how controversial it was?
This leads us to Elon’s Twitter purchase in 2022, and doubling down on changing his personality to become polarizing himself, to maximize free marketing, engagement, and attention.
And we are here, discussing how a 2 door taxi could make sense. It doesn’t. It’s stupid. It’s not what we expected, so now there will be a lot of articles about it.
I’m glad his stock is tanking.
2 door taxi doesn’t work but facts show most car trips are for 1 to 2 people and cargo. This design goes right to the size SUV argument
Makes sense if you want to own a commuter car. I have a 2 seat 2 door commuter that is good for 90% of my driving.
One or two people don’t lose anything by taking a cab that can fit more, but a family of 3 would have to split up and pay more to use these dumb things
It’s ideological – the whole techbro thing is that it’s bad to see or interact with other people you don’t own. So the cab implicitly makes that improbable.
If this vaporware shows up at all it’s going to be 1. years late and 2. not $30k.
We don’t have to breathlessly believe everything that comes out of this fool’s ketamine trips.
Truer words were never spoken
The thing is, having more seats give you options. You may be driving around one or two passengers most of the time, but for the times you need to make an airport run and pick up a tourist family, having just two seats is just unnecessarily limiting.
Don’t need to be all things for all people. We still don’t have a family car that does that. Or even a single person car that does it. So why should a cab?
Because a cab isn’t an individual choice. It’s a fleet tool. You need to have both a passive maximum and passive minimum of capability in that scenario. Reducing your passive maximum capability reduces your ability to generate income.
You have to think a little differently about this. The vehicle will not be accommodating an individual who purpose bought it for their limited needs (“I have three kids, I need two rows of seating” or “I live on a dirt road, I need something with ground clearance”). It’s a company that needs a vehicle that can transport a variety of things (such as four band members and their instruments to a gig, down to a single drunk girl going home). The slight upfront inefficiencies of the vehicle are compared to the amount of revenue that will be lost if a certain percentage of their potential market is cut off. And cutting off a portion of the market is highly detrimental to cab companies as ridesharing still continues to eat into their operating profits.
Most cab companies don’t like unnecessarily turning down fares. Are they supposed to double up their cabs to accommodate parties above two? And let’s not even mention wheelchairs.
I’ve been telling anyone who will listen that the Toyota JPN Taxi is an automotive work of art, and might be peak combustion appliance vehicle. The JPN taxi would kill almost unchanged as a USPS mail truck, just take out the seats and you’re golden. The hybrid drive train is perfect for both use cases as they are almost the same (delivery of people vs stuff). I wish we could get a left-hand drive, civilian version in the US because we have too few MPVs since the Mazda5 departed. Plus, it has a funky/cartoony look that the Kia Soul/Nissan Cube leaned into that I think really works for its use case.
Think about how you often get in or out of a cab if there are 2 of you. It pulls up to the curb and you both get in or out the same door and one person slides across. Why? because you don’t want to step in or out into traffic with the opposite door. So the screen and the armrest make no sense in this context because the street isn’t changing. Even if there’s not a 3 across configuration, people are still going to want to slide across the seats in this thing.
The wheels are just hilarious. Not the large and small rear and front aspect — the 20-24” of metal wheel and 1” of rubber. Combined with the retro-future disc shape, it’s just silly. But, I guess a concept car is a concept car.
As has been noted, raising the rear roof into more of a Prius shape would instantly greatly help the cargo space issue, even if not helping the two passenger issue.
I’ll start off by saying that I do not for one second believe that this will hit the market in the form that it was presented in.
However, my bigger question is insurance and liability. Currently for level 2 the driver is responsible, and it seems as if even if the software is garbage and at fault, the driver will be held liable. With this vehicle, there is no way for anyone in the vehicle to take over in any sort of emergency or edge case scenario. Will insurance companies even insure a vehicle like this? If there is an accident, who is liable? Will they hold the owner liable even if they are nowhere near the car and had nothing to do with the software development? Will they actually hold the manufacturer liable for causing a collision?
This sure is throwing me vibes of that VW XL1 from a while back. Low slung and swoopy.
Fewer seats, fewer passengers, smaller wrongful death lawsuit settlements.
Exactly. Cheaper to kill 2 people rather than 4 or 6. This is a new design so there’s rush it won’t work.