Last night Tesla showed off a number of future products, including the autonomous two-door, two-passenger “Cybercab.” The company promises to sell the car for $30,000, offering owners a chance to be driven around in a steering wheel-less car with two Lamborghini-style doors and camera-based AV software that promises to drop you off at your destination. There are a number of elements about the Cybercab that any self-respecting journalist should be skeptical about, but right now I want to focus on one thing: How does a two-passenger cab make any sense? Well, it just might.
Here’s a bit from our Cybercab-reveal article:
Tesla headlines the Cybercab as “faster” and “more affordable.” Why? Well, you won’t be paying a human driver to sit in the seat to haul you around. Beyond that, it notes that the design relies solely on cameras for its self-driving ability. Tesla has long eschewed the use of more expensive radar or LIDAR sensors in its autonomous driving program.
Tesla also states you’ll be able to “call it once” and keep the vehicle “as long as needed,” whether you’re taking short trips or using it all day. Contrast that to a contemporary rideshare or taxi, which is only yours for as long as your trip lasts.
And here are a few photos:
The first thing some might say in reply to my headline is: “Well, most of the time a New York taxi cab is only transporting one or two people, anyway; three-wide is tight, and nobody wants to sit up front.” OK, sure. I buy that the average taxi ride probably involves shuttling only one or two folks around. But here’s the thing: I’m not sure I fully understand the benefit of a two-passenger taxi has over a five-passenger. But let’s talk about it.
Let’s have a look at some other taxi cabs from around the world, starting with two of what one could argue are the ultimate. The first is called the Toyota JPN Taxi, and, after riding in one in Hong Kong, I wrote a deep-drive on it earlier this year comparing it to its contemporaries. This is a phenomenal taxi cab layout:
Just look at how perfect the packaging is on this machine. There’s a short hood to house the entire engine/drivetrain, but everything aft of the cowl is passenger space. The rocker panels are low, allowing for easy ingress/egress, and that low floor, combined with a tall roof and an overall boxy shape, maximizes interior volume.
One one side there’s a sliding rear door for when you’re in tight spots, and on the other side there’s a conventional door. There’s tons of interior seating space, with the floor being perfectly flat thanks to a front-drive design:
And look at all the space for cargo:
Have a look at the side profile one more time:
Let’s compare that to one of the other benchmarks in taxicab design, the London Black Taxi, which Matt Hardigree drove, as mentioned in his article “I Drove A London’s Black Taxi And Discovered Why They Are Some Of The Best Purpose-Built Vehicles On Earth.”
The London Electric Vehicle Company (LEVC) “TX” has a seating configuration that’s arguably even more impressive than the Toyota JPN’s. Up front, partitioned off from the rear, is just the driver’s seat; the passenger’s door offers access to a nice flat luggage space:
And then there are not three, but six seats in the back!:
You’ll notice that the overall shapes of the London Black Taxi and the Toyota JPN are similar, and that’s because this footprint maximizes the ratio of interior volume to footprint — a key metric in cities that are already jam-packed with cars. Whats more, both designs offer excellent wheelchair access.
Especially relative to the best taxi cabs out there, it seems to me that the Tesla Cybercab design really doesn’t make any sense. Here’s what transporting five people would look like using Cybercabs:
Here’s what it’d look like using a London cab:
That doesn’t seem to make sense, but let’s talk about it some more.
Even if you look at the Cybercab as a private car and not an actual taxi, it’s definitely cool looking, and if it can drive itself, that’s amazing. But the market for two-passenger vehicles is so small. Typically two-passenger cars are sports cars, and you know what people typically enjoy doing to sports cars? Driving them.
So this isn’t going to take the place of a sports car, it’s not going to work as a family car, and as a taxi cab it would probably work for most taxi rides, but does it offer a significant benefit over a four-door taxi cab with a similar footprint? I mean, maybe it’s lighter and more aerodynamic, but how much of a consumption delta is there really between this and, say, a car shaped like a five-passenger Prius? And is that Vehicle Demand Energy delta associated with this sleek shape going to outweigh the fact that you now need multiple of these to transport groups of three or more?
I’m honestly curious about this. It’s likely that most taxi rides limit their efficiency by some amount by offering too much space when only one or two people are usually being transported. Why carry around extra weight and cost when you usually don’t have to? But most of an electric vehicle’s weight and cost is in its batteries, so upon first glance, I’m really not seeing how a five-passenger design isn’t the better call, here. If this were a tandem car, then I get it — two seats reduce the frontal area (though aerodynamics really only dominates at higher speeds, and I’d guess most taxis drive an average of 30 mph or so). But this? I’m curious if Tesla had some data to back up why this makes sense:
It doesn’t even look that small (in part, because a somewhat-long wheelbase is going to be needed for batteries). And if it’s a two-seater just to save money, surely scissor doors aren’t the move, right?
I’m always careful not to just knee-jerk react to Elon Musk creations, because that happens far too often in media. But I do have to call out when I don’t understand something, and I’m a bit confused here. Surely Elon Musk — a man who is all about optimization — has data to prove that this is optimal, right?
Then again, the Cybertruck is far from an “optimal” truck design, but it’s actually useful, and it fits into a category of vehicle for which there is lots of demand. But the Cybercab? It seems both suboptimal as a taxi and limited in its appeal as a private vehicle.
Maybe there’s no point in talking about the overall design when the whole thing relies on a car being able to drive itself — something that isn’t possible yet for the vast majority of the country.
Update: I called fellow engineer Huibert Mees just now to chat about this. He buys that a two-door design could offer significant cost and weight advantages, and if most cab rides are just shuttling around one or two people, that could mean it’s theoretically a better tool for the job the majority of the time. But it’s not clear whether the cost and weight and whatever incremental aero benefits (and again, aero really only dominates at highway speeds) outweigh the practical detriment of not being able to carry more than two people.
What’s more, the technically correct answer isn’t always the actually correct answer, as human beings are irrational. Maybe most people commute to work by themselves, but they still want to have room for four in case friends or grandchildren or whoever come over. Ditto with cab companies, who might rather have a single car that can do more.Then there are people who have larger families, and on and on — you can see how a two-passenger car might have limited appeal.
The result is that a two-passenger vehicle could theoretically end up being more expensive than a four-door simply because its volume limits is ability to reduce cost to the same degree. It could fall short in economies of scale. So at that point, you’ve got a car that’s more expensive, maybe negligibly slipperier through the air, and definitely lighter, but perhaps not to the point where it matters that much.
Again, this is all just theory, and again, you’d hope that someone ran the calculations: That they basically calculated the efficiency gain of going with a two-door versus a four-door, considered what percentage of cab rides involve more than two people, and ultimately determined that it’s more efficient to go with the lighter two-door design and to occasionally send two cars for parties of more than two.
Oh, and it’s worth noting: That comparison to current taxi cabs above only makes a little bit of sense, because naturally a two-passenger human-piloted vehicle isn’t going to suffice unless there’s just one client, and they’d have to sit up front next to all the equipment. A two-door cab makes way more sense on a self-driving car than on a human-driven one, even if it’s not 100% clear that it makes the most amount of sense over, say, a similarly-short four-door. I’d love to see the data on all this.
It’s also worth noting that Rimac has a similar two-passenger taxi concept, with Car and Driver describing the reasoning in its story:
Unlike many other futuristic visions for self-driving pods, the Verne seats just two passengers. Verne says its data revealed that nine out of 10 rides are for just one or two people, so this layout lets them satisfy most customers while creating a capacious cabin in a compact footprint. Without mentioning a specific model, Verne claims it has more interior room than a Rolls-Royce.
Of course, Verne looks like a smaller one-box design, though it’s hard to be sure how exact dimensions compare:
Looks surprisingly nice for a recent Tesla and has overall pretty cool design for an affordable electric two-seater coupe, but as a taxi cab doesn’t make any sense and I predict that if this will ever be made, it will a) not be affordable b) be too big and heavy c) also otherwise watered down design-wise and d) not work as an autonomous vehicle nor taxi.
I mean, I wouldn’t trust that guy driving the London black cab though. He’s got something of the night about him.
The Autopian art team could produce a far more detailed rendering. This thing screams vaporware.
Rendering? They have like 10 driving prototypes.
They should be running autonomously in the Vegas CC Loop in a few months I assume. Perfect place to sort out any issues.
What’s clear here is that the design is about maximizing the cool factor, and it works on people. You and James may both – knowledgeable dudes I respect – praised the Cybertruck despite doing such a great job of documenting its – I would say fatal – flaws.
We’re looking at a very niche product at best and the only reason we’re talking about this is because Musk has money and put up a show. Also because he’s been right before which definitely deserves some street cred. But a 2-seat gullwing coupe with no steering wheel? Wtf.
Btw, the HK taxis deserve a title of one of the greatest cars ever. It’s up there with the T1 bus.
Most of the time, HK Taxi’s only have 1 – 2 human passengers. The front are often stuffed with driver’s crap.
Why I say human? Because a lot of them have roach problems https://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking-news/section/4/206677/One-%E2%80%98hell%E2%80%99-of-a-ride:-Passenger-shares-taxi-ride-with-family-of-cockroaches
That post is pretty one-sided. Any good journalist would have interviewed the cockroaches.
Tesla stock is down 8% today. 😐
The ploy didn’t work *shrug
I for one hope they have a good reason for this design since it’s going to be out before 2027!
Doesn’t have to make sense, Musk thought it was cool so Tesla tries to make it happen.
This is 100% it. That dude has the maturity of a 12 year old and runs his companies like a 12-year old with infinite money. This car looks the way it does because Musk thinks it looks cool and doesn’t care if it isn’t practical.
The Cybertruck was based on a crayon drawing made by 7-year-old Elon.
This taxi is the embodiment of a pencil drawing made by 9-year-old Elon.
Did you all see the meme comparing the tropes in iRobot (robot transporter “van”, coupe with giant blank wheels, and the army of robots) which box by box were checked off at the event. The guy is stuck on a 20-yr old movie for inspiration. But I have to say, could be worse, trying to make Bladerunner happen.
Haha, yeah that was funny.
Honestly, has anything Tesla (or “Edge Idiot” Musk) done in the past 5 years made any sense?
They sell the highest-selling car in the world (Model Y), beating the corolla and rav4. https://www.focus2move.com/world-car-market/
The Cybertruck is divisive but sells competitively (best in Q2, donno about Q3) with the lowest weight and highest payload of the lot.
They’re doing something right..
I didn’t say profitable, or correct, or sales figures…I said what about it has made SENSE?
In what “sense” are you talking about, then? In a business sense it’s doing well. In a sense of doing the hard work of getting EVs mainstream, they did pretty well. In a sense of car design, you can argue both ways.
Enjoy Twitter. That is all.
I think you’re over-thinking this. Simply put, this isn’t going to happen. Or if it does it will be something completely different.
A. This is another vaporware product to make it look like Tesla is innovating when it really isn’t .(Hello Roadster with its brand new battery pack that was supposed to be out like what, 8 years ago?)
B. The whole automation taxi thing will disappear or be pushed down the road for another 8-10 years and what was actually unveiled is a coupe version of the Model 3 that will be out maybe in 2-3 years.
Option B is my bet, he gets to show off a prototype that over delivers (like so many old school concept cars) but when the rubber meets the road it’s going to just be a coupe Model 3 with a steering wheel and pedals and promises of FSD.
Once again… why are so many companies spending billions trying to design self-driving taxis?? Because you know who ISN’T rich? Cab drivers.
So the premise here is, instead of it sitting in my driveway, I can send off my personal car to earn money. Nice… until I suddenly need to head out on an errand. …or it comes back with who-knows-what-unmentionable-wetness smeared all over the interior. …or someone took a sharpie to it. …or the smoker. Not to mention general wear and tear.
Flip around to the perspective of the rider: Beyond the curiosity factor of self-driving cars, who’s going to help get my suitcase in the truck? Am I the one that has to clean up the who-knows-what-unmentionable-wetness smeared all over the interior before I sit down? IT’s a taxi equivalent of the self-checkout line: This ride better be well discounted if I have to do it myself.
I have no idea how much cab rides contribute to the GDP, but it can’t be close to what’s been thrown at the tech-dream of a self-driving taxi.
Most cab drivers don’t own the taxi, companies / groups that own the medallions do. The taxi drivers just rent them.
I think Musk is trying to go for the institutional investors that invest in Uber etc. They are the one sinking in the money to give discounts to users to loop them in, in order to make the balance sheet look good. John Oliver gave a good snapshot on how the scam works.
Medallions aren’t worth much anymore (thank you Uber/Lyft)
Uber worked because it provided taxis where there weren’t any. (But if you’re in a big city, to this day, it’s still easier & faster to just walk a block to a cab stand.) But while Uber is doing OK as a dispatcher, the ones who own and drive the cars are still low wage workers. Dispatcher makes (some) money, Driver / car owner scrapes by. Let’s not forget, Uber is not reliably profitable either.
Cab drivers? You think they’re trying to sell this to cab drivers? What gave you that idea?
They’re not trying to sell this to cab drivers. My point is, compared to the amount of money being poured into this, I don’t see the market. The only people saying, “Wouldn’t it be amazing if there was a self driving taxi” are the people trying to design a self-driving taxi.
Toms of people think a self-driving taxi would be amazing, and they always have. Why do you think people invented urban light rail?
Rail was never enough. I’ve commuted rail for years and years. People don’t live at rail stations, and they don’t work there. You have to drive between your actual origin and destination and the rail station.
The appeal of self-driving taxis has two parts: (1) utilization: cars spend a lot (90-95%) of their lives wasting space. That’s money, risk of loss, and the ecological costs of construction that’s wasted. (2) costs: imagine if instead of owning/insuring a car, you get all-you-need taxi service for roughly the same as your cell phone costs. No DUI concerns, no liability, no maintenance, etc.
I lived in NYC for 2 years with no car. I was amazed at how simpler my life was when I didn’t have to worry about my vehicle. I just went places in transit and left when I wanted. If I could do the same with high availability 24hrs without the noise and burned-pee smell, I’d love it.
Client-wise, I’d imagine the dirty seat problem’s the same as public transit. Reject the vehicle or sit in the other seat. Owner-wise, damages are probably the same as Turo: reputation + insurance. Cleanup is a problem, but I guess you can have it run through the car wash automatically. Where I am the unlimited wash plans are roughly 2x the costs of a single wash.
As for helping you with your bags into the car, yeah that’s an issue. I guess they could mount an optimus arm or two into the trunk? Just go full Jetsons with it.
The waymo being vandalized while passengers were chilling inside, or a weirdo trapping a female passenger inside another one, all should be cautionary tales. And yet, we hate the cabbies so much that hundreds of millions should be spent to eliminate them. Still baffled by this whole thing since that first Darpa challenge. Should be left for the military and reduce soldiers’ exposure- now that’s a good use of the tech.
I knew some who lived in a London Taxi, an FX4. He was employed as a long distance lorry driver and by long distance I mean this guy worked for a company that you called when you needed a 200 tonne transformer to be shifted from Birmingham (UK) to Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia), yes he actually did that, three times! This meant that he spent very little time in the UK but earned shedloads of dosh. He bought the very secondhand FX4 and converted it into a very small home for one, His registered address was my barn and the cab was kept there, on the odd occasion that he came ‘home’ he would drive it from Hampshire to the Scottish highlands and go fishing. He retired from lorry driving at the ripe old age of 40 and bought a private Island just north of Mull and lives there still with his wife (she was a barmaid in a pub by the Tay) and there four children . I don’t think that Tesla’s autocab will do that for anyone.
The upcoming National Department of Elmo Says will legislate “Solutions” for all the supposed problems you neural normies can come up with. In 2 years.
Know what’s cool about the JPN Taxi – I don’t know if this applies to the London Cab too – it is actually wheelchair accessible! They’re designed to have a little ramp that lets the wheelchair in and the seat can be folded in a way to give enough space. It’s not a feature that’s needed all of the time, but it’s needed enough of the time that designing it in is a great idea!
It’s an example of how you can get a very specific brief – taxi that can transport four people and their luggage, that’s easy to get in and out of, and has wheelchair access when you need it. That’s a perfect expression of function over form.
Here we’ve got a low vehicle with butterfly doors and two seats. It doesn’t meet a single requirement that s purpose-built taxi should hit. Grandma is going to struggle getting in and out, any family is going to have to get a second cab, wheelchair users can’t even use it. It’s the opposite of a cab design.
Grandma is most likely going to have a better time getting in and out of this than almost any other taxi you could hail. It looks to have a relatively high seating position, and the gullwing doors do a fantastic job of getting up and out of the way. Better than a sliding door in some cases.
A family would need two or more, which sucks, that’s why Tesla already addressed that issue with the 5 other options for larger taxis that will fit any size family.
Wheelchair users can’t use it. That sucks, but Tesla can’t worry too much about that 1% of Americans. At some point you have to say 99% is good enough.
The “99% is good enough” idea is why the ADA was invented. Because it’s isn’t good enough, especially since this is a product that is for people who can’t drive. Wheelchair users are more likely to be isolated, and accessible Taxis are a key way to allow for them to get into the world. Because there is no reason why a PURPOSE BUILT taxi shouldn’t be wheelchair accessible – proven by Toyota, who makes one – this is a failure of a car to fit its purpose.
I have experience shuttling elderly relatives, I know how they interact with cars. Butterfly doors are a head injury hazard and are not appropriate for someone who has difficulty standing – a traditional swing-out door is used as a support object, while this is not going to be able to function in that way.
This is inferior to every single taxi in service when it comes to doing taxi stuff – taking out accessibility, it still holds fewer people, less luggage, and is more dangerous for the elderly. It’s entirely possible to make a wheelchair accessible cab, other companies have done it. There is no excuse for making a car that is designed for one purpose and then not taking care to ensure that it can actually do it well.
So— if you’re mobility impaired – you’re Sh#$ out of luck. That and all the other issues brought up make this idea ridiculous. There’s no benefit to making this limited to 2 seats. Even at 4 or 6 seats all the other issues with FSD crop up.
No physical way to override controls? First responders are going to love this. I hope this thing is regulated out of existence. I don’t want to be a victim of Tesla’s con beta test.
Musk CONtinues to CON the masses.
It would have to actually come INTO existence first, and I have my doubts about that happening.
Yes. If you’re mobility impaired, you’re out of luck. Just like every other taxi currently in service.
Aside from whatever NV200s and MV-1s are still out there
Elon doesn’t have any friends so he can’t imagine a group of people wanting to go to the same place together.
That’s why he’s building the robot, then he doesn’t have to make friends.
Actually, wouldn’t he be literally making his friends?
This vehicle illustrates why I think Elon’s product planning is more problematic than his politics, at least when considering the future of Tesla as a company.
This vehicle makes absolutely zero sense. It is a very nice-looking car, but who cares? When I call a taxi or taxi equivalent (aka an Uber), I don’t care about styling. I want a vehicle that isn’t disgusting that safely gets me where I want to go. If Tesla wants to make a vehicle that looks like this, why not build a two-seat sports car? It wouldn’t be a high-volume vehicle, but it would have its fans and could attract new buyers into the brand. If this vehicle was built as a sports car, I might be interested in buying one. I don’t want to ride in one as a taxi passenger, though.
Also, I find the separation between the passenger area and the cargo area problematic, especially considering this is a driverless vehicle. What prevents the vehicle from driving off if you momentarily forget your luggage when you step out of the car? Generally, I prefer to keep my luggage as close to me as possible in a cab to prevent this from happening. If nothing else, at least a normal cab has a driver that you can frantically wave at as he is driving off. I highly doubt this car is sophisticated enough to interpret running and frantic waving as “stop! I left my shit in the cargo area!!” The separate cargo areas seems to be a poor choice.
Yet again I am puzzled by Elon’s product choices.
They did do a two-seat sports car. Several years ago, they released—and took reservations for—the new “Roadster,” which is actually a targa-top. As far as I’m concerned, it was an excuse to take people’s reservation money and do sod-all with it, as it’s not yet been released. They’re targeting MY2026, when it was planned to be MY2021.
Never mind that the product cycle for a Hyundai Tucson, something infinitely more challenging to design, engineer and market—since, you know, it has to appeal to ordinary people—happens in those same five years.
I’m aware of the original and updated versions of the Roadster. Neither are intended to be products bought by the average person. The original was a very niche product aimed at early adopters and the new one costs as much as a Lamborghini.
I was thinking the Cybercab could make sense as an affordable electric sports car. Given the prices of the Model 3, this vehicle should cost in the $40s which is relatively affordable for mainstream buyers. This could be an EV alternative to vehicles like the Miata, GR86, or Nissan Z. Wasting this styling on a self driving cab is a missed opportunity for Tesla.
I agree. Like everything Tesla does, this flies in the face of common sense.
I don’t see why they don’t just build a version of the Y that’s a little boxier and that has three rows, for the cab. And, yes, this admittedly attractive wedge-looking thing they’re calling the Cybercab ought to be an enthusiast car, It kind of looks like a CRX/CR-Z for the modern times.
I agree a Y based cab makes sense. Model Y could easily be modified to seat 7 or more and have a lot of cargo space. If Tesla insists on its cab being self-driving, it seems even an unmodified Y would be adequate since it seats 5 and has decent cargo room. I also think Tesla could build a Y based compact pickup or van (those could also be based on the Model S/X platform as well).
I didn’t think of the CRX or CR-Z at first, but I can definitely see the resemblance now that you say it (particularly to the CR-Z). I’m disappointed Tesla isn’t building this as an enthusiast car; I could see replacing my Model 3 with one if they built it. I really liked the CR-Z and thought Honda made a mistake with its powertrain choice; I think Tesla could right that wrong in spirit by building a 2 door CR-Z-esque affordable sports car with Cybercab styling.
It seems like Tesla has so many options with the platforms it already has. I simply do not understand why they let those platforms rot while focusing on impractical niche pickups and even less practical two door self-driving taxicabs. I don’t know where this company will be in 10 years, and that is truly unfortunate given what they have created.
The new Roadster is actually a 4 seater, or 2+2, although that depends on what your definition of “is” is, since it’s all really vaporware
Ah, the Bill Clinton defense. I love it.
You said what I was thinking: how would the robot know when you are done removing your luggage? What would you do if you left something in the taxi by accident, and needed it to return?
What would keep some lowlife from “tagging” the interior – or the exterior? They don’t respect bathroom mirrors, walls, hand dryers or anything else.
These are also a rolling ADA violation.
And how would it be steered if it were to – I mean, when it invariably does – suffer a breakdown?
This is Twitter II – lots of money sent down another spiraling drainhole.
My brain keeps reading the name as “Cybercrab” and I don’t know how to fix it. Damn this cyberpunk dystopia!
Carcinization will conquer all
I for one welcome our new taxicrab-driving overlords.
The good news is, we don’t really need to worry about these being on the roads until Tesla abandons vision only, or we get AGI.
Elon seems to be under the illusion that different = better in all cases.
Like the cybertruck, if they just followed their existing design language and did something more comparable to a Rivian, they could have launched a better truck faster and it would have sold like crazy (I remember eagerly awaiting the tesla truck reveal fully expecting to place a reservation, and minutes later literally laughing out loud at the reveal). Instead they went with the cybertruck that’s different for the sake of being different and just a complete joke.
Same thing with this taxi. They could have just taken a Model 3/S/Y, ripped out the driving controls and had something that might be kind of appealing while also savings billions in engineering costs. Instead, they insist on being different and end up spending way more time and money designing something that seems worse.
My question is why would someone want this if Tesla already claims existing vehicles in their lineup can also do self driving and even drive itself home or do rideshare duties for you? This is essentially a 2 door/seat version of a Model 3 that’s worse in every single possible way.
Oh right… because none of any existing Tesla vehicles can do self driving. This probably won’t either.
Because the King of Divorced Guys has long since stopped giving a fuck about making useful vehicles. The company has become his vanity project playground at this point
This whole to-do is the equivalent of Jim Farley walking onstage to introduce the Ford Flying Fusion coming in three years.
I cannot take this seriously.
If Elon says every person on Earth will have a personal robot, can’t said robot just drive any car for them? Why even build a dedicated vehicle when you can have Optimus hop in the driver’s seat of your Cybertruck while you take a nap in this dystopian hellscape of a future?
Seems to me very clear that 1 4-seat car carries 4 people with selling 1 single car, but to carry this same amount of people in a 2-seat car, takes selling double the number of cars. Do the math for the 6-seater and you just sold 3 teslas, not 1