My sister-in-law has a friend who moved to a place that did not have a Chili’s franchise and he remarked to her once, with a note of surprising sadness, that “you always think there’ll be a Chili’s.” That’s sort of how I feel about Honda. I don’t talk enough about Honda because Honda, for whatever reason, doesn’t feel as sexy of a topic as Tesla or GM or even Toyota. Sure, we review their cars, but I do think Honda gets a little taken for granted.
There’s some new data and analysis out and it’s making me think about Honda and the sleeper role it could play in the electrification of the fleet in the United States, both in terms of hybrids and pure BEVs. What else is going on today? If you’re here and you already own an EV, you’re probably not happy with your tires. China is also thinking about EVs and has dispatched its commerce minister to Europe to try and persuade the continent to let in Chinese-made electric cars.
And, finally, the feds are looking into transmission failures in RAM trucks.
Honda Is Leading The Way In Hybrids As Alternative Energy Vehicles Grow To 18% Of The Market
The folks at Cox Automotive are out with their big quarterly report on what’s going on in the industry and I encourage you to go read it if you want to get nerdy about the car industry, but I’ll take out the little bit of data that I find most interesting as that’s what I generally do around here.
Let’s start with this graphic:
As you can see, purely internal combustion-powered cars have dropped in the share of sales from 97% in the first quarter of 2019 down to just 81% in Q4 2023. While EVs have grown considerably in that time, PHEVs and Hybrids actually make up the largest share (10.5% total). PHEVs are dominated by the Jeep Wrangler PHEV, Grand Cherokee PHEV, and Toyota RAV4 Prime, which make up 45% of that little slice of the market. EVs are dominated by Tesla’s Model 3 and Model Y. None of this is a surprise.
Here’s the graphic that got me, though:
Volvo has made a big push for EVs and PHEVs so it’s no surprise there’s a good mix there. Toyota has been pushing hard with hybrids and its performance, too, isn’t really a surprise. Honda kind of caught me off guard, however, as it turns out the RAV4 Hybrid, Honda CR-V Hybrid, and Accord Hybrid combined to make up 38% of all hybrid vehicle sales last year.
Look at that tiny sliver of Toyota sales that are BEV. Those are entirely of the extremely unappealing and troubled bZ4X, a vehicle that Toyota must have known was going to be mediocre given they named it like a torrent. But people love Toyotas, and for good reason. I spoke to family members of bZ4X owners so I could ask them what the hell happened that would see someone they love behind the wheel of a bZ4X. The answer? These people wanted an EV and were only going to buy a Toyota.
Enter the GM-built Honda Prologue. Unlike the bZ4X, the Ultium-based Prologue has a competitive range (nearly 300 miles in the most efficient trim). The Prologue qualifies for federal tax incentives, meaning that it’s also somewhat price-competitive (about $43k after tax credits in the cheapest trim). It looks like a normal, inoffensive crossover of the type that Honda buyers love.
So this is my theory and what I want to see: I think GM and Ford have worked hard trying to push their EVs, but the next traunch of people most inclined to buy the current generation of EVs and hybrids are probably looking to buy something from either Toyota or Honda. Toyota has great hybrids but a mediocre EV. Honda has good hybrids and now, it seems, a decent EV.
I’m really curious to watch Prologue sales. Given the current projections, it’s not likely that Honda will sell more than 50,000 of these in 2024, which puts it in the Mach-E territory. That’ll help juice the market, but it isn’t an overwhelming number. But if Honda can be a success with a perfectly fine EV I think it’ll show where the demand is. If it fails and spurs more hybrid growth, it’ll also show where the market is.
Either way, the Prologue is maybe the most important electric car of 2024.
J.D. Power: EV Buyers Aren’t Super Jazzed About Tires
Tires are a key way to extend range in electric vehicles, yet a common complaint from EV owners is that tires wear faster than expected. At least, faster than consumers expect. The reality is that a Tesla Model 3 is about 30% heavier than a comparably-sized Honda Civic and also has almost instantaneous torque from its electric motors. That’s going to result in a lot of tire wear, especially from efficiency-oriented tires.
This dissatisfaction was noted in the latest tire satisfaction study from J.D. Power, which saw a widening gap between owners of regular cars and EVs:
“The widening satisfaction gap between EVs and gas-powered vehicles highlight an opportunity for tire manufacturers and automakers to educate EV owners on the differences in performance,” said Ashley Edgar, senior director of benchmarking and alternative mobility at J.D. Power. “Additionally, because of the inherit conflict of maximizing vehicle range and optimizing tire wear for EVs, tire manufacturers and automakers need to work together to overcome the challenge without completely sacrificing tire performance in other areas, especially as the EV market continues to increase.”
The solution here seems to be to tell EV owners to deal with it or find a better balance.
China Hoping To Persuade EU That It’s Still Cool
I’ve already mentioned that the European Union is thinking about enacting retroactive tariffs against Chinese companies selling EVs in Europe over unfair subsidies and now China is dispatching its commerce minister, Wang Wentao, to France to try and fix it.
Here’s the scoop from Reuters on what’s going on:
Wang will visit France starting April 7 and will be accompanied on the trip by representatives of BYD, SAIC and Geely, the companies that have already hosted Commission investigators, one of the people with knowledge of the trip said.
This is key, because China is already responding:
France has backed the Commission investigation, part of a years-long campaign by President Emmanuel Macron for the EU to get tougher on trade and insist on a level playing field.In response, China launched in January an anti-dumping investigation into brandy, which was considered as particularly aimed at France as it accounts for almost all EU brandy exports to China, Chinese customs data shows.France’s cognac industry association said in January it would fully cooperate with Chinese authorities, but that it believed the inquiry was linked to a broader trade row rather than aimed at the liquor market.
Feds Looking At Stellantis Over RAM Transmission Failures
If you’re the owner of a heavy-duty RAM pickup from the 2022 Model Year and you are on your truck’s forums, you probably noticed the many complaints about the transmission. It turns out the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has also taken notice.
From Reuters via Automotive News:
That is less than ideal.
What I’m Listening To This Morning While Writing TMD
I woke up yesterday and jogged down the seawall on Corpus Christi Bay and knew I had to make it a Robert Earl Keen morning.
The Big Question
Would you trust an electric vehicle more if it was made by Honda? What about a hybrid? What are your feels about Honda?
“Inherit conflict’” Ms. Edgar? Like what, the Hatfields and McCoys, the Palestinians and Israelis? This is either a misquote, an autocorrect oopsy, or somebody is illiterate. I believe ‘inherent’ is the intended adjective.
Hondas are like sardines from Norway. Try a Honda, you’ll like a Honda, buy a Honda.
I know a Toyota only guy and he loves to brag about his cars. He has some pretty bad takes, too. For example, his wife’s Venza is the greatest road trip vehicle of all time and the Avalon was the best luxury car in all of history. The most hilarious thing, though, is how his Corolla is just like a Ferrari because it has paddle shifters and it’s “really fast.” When I told him his Corolla was afflicted…I mean equipped…with a CVT and those paddle shifts are simulated he didn’t believe me. This self proclaimed car guy didn’t even know what transmission was in his own car.
Send him here! Maybe we can bring him into the light
Unfortunately he is not receptive to any new information. No amount of expertise could convince him of anything that contradicts something he thinks he already knows. Even after seeing the spec sheet on his Corolla he still didn’t believe it had a just 132 hp and a CVT.
That’s rough. I understand that that seems to be the default mode for humans, but my damn…what a boring way to live. Faux certainty should be left in childhood.
That’s a keen observation. Childishness seems to be the driving attribute behind a lot of this person’s behaviors. They are the single whiniest person I’ve ever encountered.
I have a word for people who can’t learn anything that contradicts an existing belief. I call them dead.
Robert Earl Keen! I’ve had the pleasure to see him live* 5 or 6 times and I met him once on a Southwest flight from Nashville to San Antonio (I asked him why he wasn’t flying private, don’t remember his response). His albums do not do him justice; the man knows how to work a crowd. I encourage checking out one of the live versions of Corpus Christi Bay (this one is from the Ryman in 2006).
TBQ
I trust most things made by Honda. They do good work and my family has been paying their workers salaries since before I was born. In my immediate family, we’ve had
3 Accords1 Passport1 Pilot.1 Civic del Sol1 dirt bike, model yet to be rememberedOnce I get my moto license, my first choice is an ADV 160. Honda is always my first choice if I’m looking, just depends on the price.
Yes to Robert Earl Keen!
The “Fuel Share of OEM Sales” graphic is a textbook case of misleading graphics. It took me several seconds to figure out how 81% of something is represented visually as roughly 20% of something, which is also similar in size to 8.1%/8.4% of something, yet not 40x larger than 2.1% of something.
Then you see it – the y-axis starts at 75%. It’s fine to zoom in for details and samples, but that’s a pretty dishonest representation. Also the colors are atrocious for accessibility.
That’s a classic bad graph ed tufte would have a field day with.
Yeah took me a second – the charitable take is it’s to make it easier to see small slivers. However it has the effect of making the EV percentage look much larger than it really is
I’m actually kind of torn on it, because while the 75% start throws it for a loop, I do think the juxtaposition of the years means you see the growth/shrinkage year over year quite clearly.
I’d love to see Honda squeeze the kind of miles out of an EV or plug-in hybrid that they did out of their earlier Civics. A friend of mine hit over 470,000 in his ’06 Civic with just regular oil changes. He never even changed the transmission fluid.
I also really liked their first gen Insight, but the idea of a small, mileage-dedicated car coming from anyone these days seems incredibly far-fetched. So, no I probably won’t be thinking of buying anything from Honda anytime soon although it’s not a trust issue, it’s a cost and interest issue.
As to tires, whatever GM did with their first gen Volts defies the current “EV tires are the new oil change” status. I bought the car with 40,000 miles. The previous owner had just changed the front tires. Since the rear ones still looked good I decided to just drive it until either the fronts or rears looked like they needed to be changed and get a full matching set at that point. That didn’t happen until 90,000 and there was still some tread left on those original rear tires. At that point I changed them based on age and a few visible side-wall cracks. The Sam’s-Club special Pirellis I put on the car currently have 30,000 on them, have been rotated three times, and look like they’ll easily last another 30,000 miles.
So far I’m happy with tires on the bolt EV, the originals and first replacement have lasted 35-40k miles, which is the same as my previous ICE car. That said, it isn’t one of the giant, obese EVs, and only weighs ~10% more than the previous vehicle. The snow tires on 15″ wheels are great and have very little wear after 3 winters, I just wish that 15″ wheels were available from the factory since it has zero need for anything bigger.
They also didn’t try to go over the top with performance/ludicrous modes and all that torque off the line either. It’s a normal car. We need more normal EVs.
If you want to have a performance mode, sure. But right now manufacturers are convinced we’ll spend $80-100K if they’ll slap 600HP in the thing. Even if it is a performance-oriented car just give me 350HP and different modes to control torque output more directly so I don’t shred tires just going on grocery runs.
You only have to worry about fuel dilution in your motor oil part of the time with hybrids. Smart, Honda, very smart.
(i know this was a joke ????)
All current Honda hybrids use the N/A 2.0L which doesn’t have fuel dilution issues like the 1.5T. It’s a very good reason to upgrade to the hybrid when buying an Accord or CR-V. Also, the upcoming Civic facelift is replacing the 1.5T with the 2.0L hybrid.
Yeah, I was being tongue in cheek, but that is a very important and relevant point you make. 🙂
Maybe it’s time for EV tire sizes to become more reasonable. You know, like real sidewalls. Good tire sizes include 205/65-15 and 215/60-16.
Also, most of them have ridiculous axle ratios, like 9:1. Instead, bring it down closer to 3:1 like regular cars have. This will give more range and better tire life while still having reasonable acceleration.
Traction control/LSD, AWD or some other way to modulate the power going down would help, too. Somehow limit the power when rolling from a stop, then allow the full power later on. It also wouldn’t surprise me if AWD models actually got longer treadlife than the 2WD equivalents.
I assume those axle ratios are not intended for maximum acceleration but are necessary because the electric motors spin to 20,000+ RPM and there is no traditional transmission.
Axle ratios are not very comparable between ICE and EVs due to their different RPM ranges, so they’re probably in a good place for most EVs (exception being the 1st gen Hyundai Kona EV).
Auto reviewers criticize EVs that modulate their torque for lack of throttle response, which has forced automakers to tune most vehicles to be aggressive from a stop. It’s also part of the ‘wow’ factor for EVs, especially luxury models. I feel like once EVs become more normalized, automakers will start toning things down especially on the mainstream models.
I’m surprised to see so many on here talking about manufacturers needing to ‘tone down’ the throttle response of EVs in response to the tire wear issues. If tire wear is bothering them, can people not be responsible for toning down their own throttle response with, you know, their right foot?! Besides, almost all EVs already have different performance modes anyway with different throttle mappings. I want manufacturers to focus on reducing weight, which will reduce tire wear *and* increase performance.
P.S. With range being such an important selling point on EVs, is seems very unlikely manufacturers are leaving much on the table with axle ratios just to favor that extra off the line performance. As I understand it, electric motors have very similar efficiency throughout their operating range, so a higher axle ratio is limiting top speed more than reducing efficiency.
Having just put the third set of summer tires on our Model Y in 70k miles (also have snow tires used in that mileage) it’s a tough pill to swallow to fork over $1500 for those every 20k-ish miles. They just flat-out EAT tires.
On my Lightning I am supposed to use load E tires because the thing is a tank. At least I have 18s instead of the stupid 20/22s. My winter LT3s were $$$$
I need to change the rears on my Mercedes-Benz CLK350 Convertible every two-three years, and the fronts every three-four years. Roughly 10K miles annually.
Doesn’t seem that outlandish to me – particularly for summer/performance tires.
Perhaps going to a different brand or all-weathers will bring you better results?
The “summer” tires are just in spirit as they are all seasons, but “all season” is B.S. when it comes to Michigan snow so I have snow tires too. The previous tires were Goodyear Eagle F1s from factory and for the first replacement set. Technically there’s another set in there as we’ve had flats on all of them at some point so they weren’t really the *second* set as there were plenty of replacements in there. Again, Michigan roads. The set I just put on are Pirelli P Zero All Season Plus, allegedly for electric vehicles. We’ll see.
Oh Yes – I recall Dad’s annual tire change-over weekend when I was a kid in the UP….
…which reminds me of when we were driving out to CA when Dad was relocated there – and the blowouts on the new Firestones Dad had installed on Mom’s Mercury the spring before in Iowa and Nevada. Dad had the snow tires in the back of his truck for some reason – so we came rolling into Sacramento over the Sierras on snowtires in July….
Regarding the Honda Prologue…. I predict it’s impact will be minimal. It’s a desperation move by Honda so they can say “we have BEVs too”.
They did something similar with SUVs back in the 1990s with the Honda Passport… which was a rebadged Isuzu.
And like that original Pilot, the Prologue is a placeholder that will sell in relatively low number until Honda can make their own in-house BEV for that market segment.
And I have to say that I find it surprising that Toyota has such a small plug in hybrid share of their sales.
Regarding OEM tires… “The solution here seems to be to tell EV owners to deal with it or find a better balance.”
Or focus on buying a replacement tire with a much higher treadwear rating. I personally am a fan of the General Altimax RT43/RT45… which has a treadwear rating of 700.
Is it the best tire for maximum performance? Hell no. But it’s perfectly fine for a vehicle used as a daily driver.
“tire manufacturers and automakers need to work together to overcome the challenge without completely sacrificing tire performance in other areas,”
OR they could just stop equipping their vehicles with the cheapest tires that crappy in every way OR stop equipping their vehicles with high performance tires that are initially great, but then need to be replaced after 30,000km.
“Would you trust an electric vehicle more if it was made by Honda?”
Maybe. But note that the GM-product rebadge that is the Prologue doesn’t fit that definition
“What about a hybrid?”
Honda’s early hybrids in the 2000s were crap in terms of prematurely failed battery packs. So the answer to that is “no”. If you want a rock solid hybrid, get a Toyota.
Their newest hybrids seem to be better, but I’m still a bit sceptical.
“What are your feels about Honda?”
I have a manual 2008 Honda Fit. Honda probably makes the best “affordable car” engines and best manual transmissions. But they are very much still an “engine company” in an industry that is moving away from ICEs.
Based on what I’ve read about their early hybrids and the HV pack issues on those, I’d want to see the reliability data on any new BEV they come out with first.
In the case of the Prologue, it’s best to assume all the issues GM is having with Ultium pretty much applies to the Prologue.
I predict that GM will get the issues figured out after a couple of years.
“And like that original Pilot“
The original Honda Pilot is a single seat dune buggy type atv released in 1989 that absolutely ripped. It replaced the original Honda Odyssey which was also an atv.
And now I’m wasting my Friday looking at used ones instead of actual work that I should be doing
“Like that original Passport” is what I should have said.
I refuse to acknowledge Honda’s existence till they return the Jazz/Fit to these shores. The HR-V is a perfectly fine car, but the Fit was a masterpiece.
You just reminded me that I saw a black or very dark blue Jazz badged Fit on Saturday morning with rally flaps and white rims. When I saw it all I could think was damn a hybrid or PHEV Fit would be so very welcome by me and a handful of other people.
I lifted our Fit and put on some smallest A/T tires I could find, and the thing is borderline unstoppable. Add an electric motor for a little more off the line torque, I’d take it to Jeep Easter Safari.
If you’re in the USA, you should be able to get a 2024 Jazz/Fit… in 2049. If you’re in Canada, you’ll only have to wait until 2039.
I have a 2008 Fit Spot. It’s a great smaller/cheap car. I wouldn’t call it a masterpiece, but it is very good. It does have some minor flaws in the design (water leaking into the trunk is a common issue). And it could use more power. And the automatic versions aren’t nearly as fun.
The upside is my 3rd gen will never be obsoleted by a subsequent generation.
The latest HR-V is kind of a failure in my eyes. The interior is very nice, but the powertrain is weak yet gets quite poor fuel mileage, and the exterior styling is frogish (like a 2020 Ford Escape). I can get past the styling, but it desperately needs the hybrid powertrain offered in Europe.
Agree. The fuel economy is pathetic for a small-ish vehicle in 2024. Especially a Honda, which usually has been known to have better than average economy for their smaller vehicles.
It’s way too slow. And the fuel economy is unfortunate.
I own one and I completely agree! Here’s my doppelganger.
https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/1600/479000/900/479921.jpg
I consider Toyota and Honda my #1 and 2 choices for vehicles that won’t be troublesome piles of junk.
But I also know the Honda EV isn’t really a Honda. It is a Chevy wearing a Honda badge. So I’m not plunking down $50k for that any sooner than I would the Chevy version. Of course I consider $50k for a CUV with the limitations of a modern BEV to be ridiculous, so I guess I am not the target audience anyway.
Like others have said, the “Prologue” is not what I am looking for from Honda. Toyota cannot build hybrid Siennas, Highlanders, and Grand Highlanders fast enough. Get a hybrid or PHEV drivetrain into the Pilot and Odyssey. Make a PHEV Accord or CR-V instead of that Clarity mess they rolled out a few years ago. Get hybrid or PHEV drivetrains in the MDX and RDX too while you are at it.
You know what would be a great BEV? A new Honda Fit that gives me 300 miles of range, charges in 10 minutes, and is $30k.
The Prologue is the best Ultium car so far because it has Android Auto & Apple Carplay, which the rest lack ????????.
Honda really needs to make a 2nd hybrid powertrain for N/A V6 replacement applications. They should be quite easy to convert to PHEVs if they choose to, since they use a series hybrid system.
I trusted Honda until I owned three, two were purchased new and one was from my father, who was meticulous about service intervals. All three were hot garbage.
1991 Accord transmission bought the farm at 97k miles.
1998 Accord had a repeated issue with the accelerator sticking after being parked for 30 minutes. Honda never could figure out how to fix it. Just had to rev it a few times to unstick the pedal before putting it in gear. Otherwise you would keep applying pressure until it popped loose and you lurched forward or backward at a much faster velocity than desired.
2008 Civic, woof. Arrived from the factory with a misaligned rear door seal. Didn’t notice until I saw a puddle of water in the rubber floor mats while looking over my shoulder to back up. TSB for the sun visors splitting apart. Door with bad weather strip power window eventually failed after the warranty period (Weather strip was fixed during warranty).
Drivers window developed a mind of it’s own, rolling down some days and not others. Something fell apart in the power roof and you could hear it rattling around in there. The AUX poor died, was replaced and died again.
The digital dash speedo/temp/gas cluster died and had to be replaced. The AC died and had to be serviced. The AC was the worst of any car I have ever experienced, completely incapable of handling Memphis summers. I finally learned that revving the engine and holding it at around 2,000 rpm at stop lights would allow it to keep cooling.
All this happened from new within 10 years and only 64,000 miles. I’d only consider Honda again if they made a new S2000 and it was as sexy as the first one. Considering modern car designs, I don’t see that ever happening. Probably more likely to end up with the S2000-Cross with the Acura snowplow grill and a body that makes the first gen Ridgeline attractive.
“1991 Accord transmission bought the farm at 97k miles.”
Lemme guess… it had an automatic, right? Honda automatics didn’t really become ‘good’ until the mid to late 2000s.
“1998 Accord had a repeated issue with the accelerator sticking after being parked for 30 minutes. “
Sounded like you either needed to lube your throttle cable, replace the throttle cable or replace the Throttle Position Sensor
https://www.v6performance.net/threads/throttle-keeps-getting-stuck.21256/#:~:text=dirt%20and%20grime%20built%20up,let%20go%20of%20the%20gas.&text=You%20need%20to%20start%20spraying,or%20else%20replace%20the%20cable.
“2008 Civic, woof.”
That’s about the worst Civic experience I read about. Sounds like yours was assembled by a crew that was hung over from a big party the night before.
Honda is fine, they make a good and reliable car. However I have noticed they are priced a little higher in every segment to a comparable competitor, this also applies to their motorcycles. I would love to buy a Honda, but I like money more than paying more for the same I can get elsewhere.
Truth. I was shopping for generators a few years back. The Honda options consistently offered fewer watts for more $. Sure the engines might be quieter, but it did not seem worth the premium compared to other brands.
Honda generators are the gold standard. It seems like there is basically Honda and “everyone else”. No they don’t have the highest output, they aren’t dual fuel, but they are supposed to work every time.
Is it worth it? Plenty of people seem to be happy with the Harbor Freight “Predator” clone of a Honda, but if I was buying something to power Grandpa’s oxygen in a power outage or run my food truck business, I’d probably spend the $$ on a Honda.
I have a honda generator (or a generator with a honda motor), It’s at least 25 years old (I bought it from a guy who bought it for the Y2K doom) and it is by far most abused engine I have ever owned. It sits outside with little more than a worn out tarp over, has gas from the obama administration I think I’ve changed the oil once in 20 years and it basically never runs unless there’s an power outage (typically freezing conditions) and despite this, it almost never fails to start and run. A few years ago it didn’t start (after not using it for at least 3 years), I put in a new spark plug and it fired right up.
Been there, done that. The Honda is worth it.
My first generator was a Champion 2500w inverter in 2021. I bought it for about $700 vs a comparable Honda at $1400 CAD. Seemed like a no-brainer, and generally, it’s a fine machine. Quiet, smooth power, and easy 2-pull starts in warm weather. It won’t start sub -10C, but it’s light enough to carry inside and warm up.
The problem was when the recoil starter assembly broke, and I needed it fixed. I wasted a ton of time trying to go through their useless warranty…Their customer service estimated wait time was like 15 hours. It was too late to return it to Canadian Tire. Eventually I found Champion’s local parts distributer, and mail ordered a replacement + spare. I had to take a chance on the part # based on a similar unit, because Champion hadn’t published a parts diagram for my exact model. The parts weren’t any cheaper than Honda, never mind the shipping. It was down for months.
If I had bought the Honda? I’d have just driven over to my local OPE dealer and grabbed the parts, or handed it to them and said ‘Fix it’. We’d have had it back in action within a few days, maybe a week, worst case scenario.
That’s what you’re paying for- A national-wide, bricks and mortar dealer network, staffed by knowledgeable people you can dial up and talk to, in your town.
Considering the ordeal with the Champion, I understand now that any equipment that isn’t backed up by a dependable parts and service network is simply not professional grade, (regardless of quality) and should be considered disposable. The resale values speak for themselves- a used, off-brand generator is basically worthless, while a Honda, Yamaha, etc will fetch close to their MSRP.
When it came time to buy a 240v backup generator, you’d better believe I sucked it up, and bought a Honda EU7000 with fuel injection.
I’ve been a Honda fan pretty much my whole life. ATVs at 7, motorcycles at 11, the first car I drove that was actually mine? 83 Accord HB 5-spd. My wife drives an MDX. The one thing I’d say about a Honda BEV is: at least the motor won’t drink oil like their V6s do. . .
My wife dailies an older CRV, so obviously we like Honda. Her family has a bunch of Hondas and not a single one of them has had any issues. Do any of their cars outside of the CTR excite me?
No, not really. But as far as basic transportation is concerned it doesn’t get much better. They’re ideal cars for people that don’t care about cars, and there’s a real value in that. They can also make a good enthusiast car when they want to and are consistently defying industry trends by making several of their cars manual only.
I’d trust a Honda or Toyota hybrid over their competitors simply because they’ve been making them the longest. Speaking of which…why isn’t there a goddamn hybrid Pilot or Odyssey yet? Anyway, when it comes to BEVs I don’t really trust any of this first generation stuff regardless of who’s making it.
The technology just isn’t well sorted yet and I don’t want to deal with the limitations of an EV or early adapter bugs. It’ll be a few years until I’m interested, but I’m definitely interested in traditional and plug in hybrids right now.
Your first two paragraphs are where it’s at. Honda right now doesn’t have much that would bring clicks to an enthusiast-focused site, but for the automotive layperson? Sign them up every day, twice on Sundays.
Honda’s reliability reputation with those that pay close(r) attention to the automotive space may have taken a hit, but I’ve got a good friend who will never drive anything else. Ever. I’ve tried to convince her to at least look at a competitor, but it falls on deaf ears. Most people will deal with minor annoyances to ultimately stay in their comfort zone. (My wife is the same way with her car. I’ve asked what she’s going to do if/when they stop making that particular car, and she just looks at me in a way that asks “why would you hurt me like that?”)
Ultimately, if Honda/Toyota do what they’ve always seemed to have done – be behind the curve, but make a good, solid product once they jump into the market – they’ll be fine. People will buy a Honda BEV because they want a Honda, and that car fits their needs and/or budget, simple as that.
As someone who grew up with an Odyssey, I want an Odyssey hybrid or Odyssey Type R more than I can convey through text. I want a fast, rowdy, and crazy fuel efficient family hauler. Is that so much to ask?
I know it’s not a van and vans uber alles is the law ‘round these parts..but the Mazda CX90 Turbo S is out there. It’ll hit 60 in the low 6s and is a mild hybrid that gets 23 city/28 highway, which is comparably really good for a family hauler.
There’s a PHEV version that’s even quicker as well but a bit less rowdy than the overboosted straight 6. They’re slowly but surely happening but they need to trickle down to us mortals.
My old man has an X5 50e and it’s incredible. Sub 4 seconds to 60, over 40 miles of EV range, God’s own engine the B58…and his lifetime fuel economy with full electric driving factored in is around 40 MPG.
Am I jealous? Absolutely….and I should be because I spec’d it for him 🙂
Interesting… I’m not one for big crossovers but I wonder if it could be lowered significantly?
That Chili’s intro is just sad.
We are a family that would shop a Honda HEV or EV. Our Odyssey odyssey has been positive.
Dodge trucks with shitty automotive transmissions, eh? That’s a story as old as seemingly forever.
I just brought my new Honda-that’s-not-a-Honda Triumph Acclaim home from its shipping port yesterday, so I’ll call my feelings about them “complicated.”
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53616708687_91deca9267_c.jpg
The only Triumph in history that won’t fall apart if you look at it funny. Somehow it did inherit the rust, though. Looks like you bagged a good one!
Part Honda, Part Triumph.
I guess that’s a Honda Hybrid.
If you know the BritCom “Keeping Up Appearances”, it’s perfect placement that they drive the Rover 216 Vitesse aka Honda Civic.
Hyacinth aspiring to upper middle class status, but it’s a Japanese stand-in.
Honda had a great hybrid: The Original Insight.
Then their final iteration of that tech was the CR-Z which was pretty underwhelming at best.
Honda’s current strategy when it comes to hybrids seems to be copying Toyota, and while that’s not a horrible strategy, it means they’ll always be behind Toyota.
Personally I think Honda should make BEV variants of most of their Minimoto line (the Navi would be the first one I’d make a BEV variant of), put the Gyro e into production, and make a regular hybrid and PHEV variant of the Ridgeline.
That all being said I really don’t see where else they would be successful in electrifying with their current lineups.
Mechanically, the original Insight was great. However the early Honda hybrids had issues with prematurely failing HV battery packs… backed with lousy/nonexistent support from Honda or its dealers. That’s why there is a little cottage industry of people ripping out the hybrid powertrains in these and installing other powertrains such as the Honda K-series engine.
Honda had an air of cleverness that came from what they did 20 years ago, but I don’t see that now. The Accord should have been hybrid only with electric AWD as an option like the new Camry will be but as a liftback sedan they would have had two years to eat the Camry’s lunch.
Where’s the hybrid Pilot and the Trailsport CR-V? Why isn’t the hybrid Civic out in the states until this year? Where’s a hybrid Si variant with the 250hp that everyone wants?
These are all things that they could do to set themselves apart in the market.
Honda and Toyota have been doing hybrids forever – I trust them implicitly to design and execute those kinds of cars. What you’re seeing now is their deep understanding of the US market. They waited on the sidelines for the EV hype to flame out, and now that it has, both companies have plans to hybridize essentially their entire lineups (Toyota especially). This is what the consumer wants in this country. When it comes to reliability, hybrid systems allow you to move back to simpler, naturally aspirated engines (often Atkinson cycle) while maintaining the low-end torque that customers demand.
But going back to Honda, the Accord Hybrid is perhaps the most perfect commuter car for the average person right now. And I see them *everywhere*. It features, you guessed it, an Atkinson cycle 2.0L NA engine.
They have taken some hits lately for oil dilution issues on the 1.5T but that’s really more of an issue with direct injection than anything else. Their torque converter automatics have never been very good. Their CVTs, while uninspiring, seem to be solid. Also fun fact, if you get a stripper model 2024 Civic Hatch with the stick, it’s mated to an old-fashioned NA port-injected (!) K engine. With all that in mind, I still find Honda very reliable, though I think at this point Mazda is winning the fight for the #2 spot in reliability. That 2.5 NA Skyactiv 4 is a truly great engine.
Honda’s reputation for reliability doesn’t seem to be where it used to be. I don’t think they’re losing or gaining anything borrowing a GM platform. I still think the Prologue is quite handsome and if I was in the market for an absurdly expensive boring crossover that weighed like it was made of lead, I’d consider it, and then probably consider why I’m in the market for an absurdly expensive boring crossover that weighed like it was made of lead in the first place.
Anyone going to the NY Int’l Auto Show this week?
I went every year from 1980 to 2014 (right before I left upon retirement) when I lived down the block a bit.
It’s where I sat in a 2015 Fit and knew I had to have one.
Still have mine 10 years later, and hope to retire it to one of Honda’s museums when I can no longer drive in 20 years or so.
I’m hoping to find a car that’ll last me a decade there too!
Good luck!
I think Honda is mostly coasting on a reputation built in the 80s-90s on naturally aspirated 4 cylinders and manual transmissions that they no longer build many of, and has been no more or less reliable than any other mainstream automaker (apart from Toyota who stands alone) for about 30 years.
To answer the question directly, no, I’d be no more likely to buy an EV or hybrid from Honda, and probably less likely given the behavior at their dealers.
Yeah, my impression is that they don’t do anything innovative. They seem like a “me too” brand but with the halo of quality, unlike the “me too” of Nissan that’s based simply on price.
Yeah…. my wife wanted a suv/crossover because she goes hiking an awful lot and access to trails are sometimes just unpaved rutted roads. We test drove Rav4’s ( too expensive ), Subarus, Fords and then a Honda CR-V. That was the most boring thing ever. Bleh…