While I’m often beating the drum for hybrid sales in The Morning Dump, it’s only because hybrids are the most obvious interim powertrain solution for the biggest chunk of the market in the United States. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for regular ICE-powered vehicles or even electric cars, for that matter. Some automakers are good at one of the three, and a few are good at two-out-of-three, but I’m going to argue that Hyundai-Kia is the only automaker that does all three well.
Sales bear out my thesis, as Hyundai and Kia both had record months in November, pushed by a mixture of increases across all ranges and powertrains. It’s a good time to be Hyundai-Kia. It’s also a good time to be a lawyer in the ongoing trial over Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s compensation, especially after a judge in Delaware ruled that Musk can’t really be paid $56 billion.
The CEO of Volkswagen is named Oliver Blume. A man named Oliver Blume bought part of a Volkswagen plant in Hannover, Germany. This is a different Oliver Blume, apparently.
And, finally, Porsche has announced a long-term partnership with the Iron Dames racing team. This makes me happy.
Hyundai-Kia-Genesis Are The Real Triple Threat
That Hugh Jackman. He can sing, he can dance, and he sure can act. He’s also so damn charming. He played Harold Hill in a revival of The Music Man and then really ran off with Marian the Librarian! Side note: If your wife says she’s going to play the romantic lead opposite Hugh Jackman in anything, you might as well pack your bags.
You know another triple threat? Hyundai.
I assume when I talk about car companies that are not 100 years old having sales gains some people naturally think that these are small brands. Though Hyundai and Kia have not been in the American market as long as some automakers, the fact is that they’re kicking metric tons of butt these days. For all the people who swore off Kia after all the car thefts, there seem to be plenty of people who don’t care.
Because not everyone reports monthly, I can only say with certainty that through the first three quarters of the year, the combined Hyundai-Kia-Genesis brands in the United States were outselling all Stellantis brands and all Honda brands. The company was also almost twice as big as Nissan, nearly three times as big as Subaru, and not that far off Ford over here in the states.
This might be why the automaker made its head of North America the head of the whole company last month. Looking at the November sales report, it’s clear that the company isn’t slowing down.
Let’s start with Hyundai. Sales were a record 76,008 units, up 8% over November 2023. This includes a 64% increase in sales of the Santa Fe Hybrid and a 227% increase in Tuscon Hybrid sales. It wasn’t just regular hybrids, even vehicles like the Tuscon PHEV were up (23%). Electric cars saw increases, as well, with the Hyundai Ioniq 5 up 110% over last November. Gas-powered cars? If you want to feel good about things, the Elantra N performance ICE sedan was up 140%.
Kia also had record sales, cresting the 70,000-vehicle mark in November, compared to just 58,338 sales last November. The brand didn’t break down sales quite as much as Hyundai, so all we know is that “electrified” models (PHEV, HEV, BEV) saw a 45% increase year-over-year. The company also had a huge month for the ICE-only Telluride SUV, which hit 11,568 deliveries in November.
How Hyundai did this is not a huge surprise to anyone paying attention. The range they have is quite impressive. The company covers the low end of the market with affordable and nice cars like the Elantra, Venue, Kia Soul, and the new Kia K4. At the other end of the market, the new Santa Fe and Telluride are extremely nice crossover/SUVs. While Genesis is not likely to ever hit Lexus numbers, the brand is finding a niche in the luxury space. It also helps that almost every product looks attractive and distinct.
More importantly, no other automaker really offers the powertrain range Hyundai does in as many vehicles. Stellantis has more popular PHEVs, but just one BEV (Fiat 500e) and no HEVs. Ford offers all variations, but has entirely abandoned sedans, and doesn’t have quite the same range of BEVs (though it does have a truck and a van). GM is closest in terms of BEVs and, arguably, does better with ICE-powered vehicles because it has big trucks, but has no hybrids.
It’s not that surprising that Hyundai put together such a great lineup of vehicles, it is surprising that few other automakers realized that powertrain diversity would be an advantage.
Elon Musk Again Denied The Biggest Paycheck In Human History, Lawyers Denied $5.6 Billion Payday
It was almost two years since the trial over Elon Musk’s compensation started. This was fun to write about because I got to write that Elon Musk was going to trial over the biggest paycheck in ‘human history.’
A lot of this hedges on the fact that Musk and the Tesla Board of Directors (largely controlled by Musk) set extremely ambitious targets for the CEO that, if achieved, would result in a big payout. Musk more than exceeded those expectations and was ready to get paid when a group of investors sued in Delaware Chancery Court, claiming that this was an unfair and essentially rigged process.
In order to get around this, Tesla put Musk’s paycheck up for a vote and won by a large margin. Yesterday, the judge in this case basically told Musk it doesn’t work that way. You can’t lose a court case and then change the evidence after the fact. Here’s a quote from the judge’s opinion:
At bottom, Defendants seek to introduce a new fact that they created for the purpose of flipping the outcome of the Post-Trial Opinion. Defendants do not cite to a single case where a court has provided such relief under Rule 54(b) or otherwise. And no wonder: Were the court to condone the practice of allowing defeated parties to create new facts for the purpose of revising judgments, lawsuits would become interminable.
Given how often Elon Musk is sued, it might behoove him to make lawsuits essentially unsettlable. On the other hand, the legal fees might start to make a dent in his outsized wealth. As one lawyer buddy put it: “Hourly billing, baby.”
The successful lawyers on the other side also argued for their own big payday, asking for 11%, or $5.6 billion. Unsurprisingly, the judge also rejected this, stating that merely giving someone hundreds of millions of dollars was probably sufficient enough for a lawyer to take the case and that lawyers being able to earn billions of dollars suing people would make settling cases nearly impossible.
Instead, the lawyers will get only $345,000,000, which Tesla is allowed to pay in stock. Of course, they’re not going to be paying that because this is going to keep getting appealed.
No, Not That Oliver Blume
Volkswagen is in neverending trouble and has to make a lot of hard decisions about closing plants in Germany, which it doesn’t want to do but probably can’t avoid at this point. But which plants? A lot of this involves politics, and Manager Magazine has a great rundown of each German plant and what it means to close them down.
For instance, the Hanover plant in Hannover-Stöcken makes the ID.Buzz is kinda important politically:
Hanover is also the seat of the Lower Saxony State Chancellery: Prime Minister Stephan Weil (65, SPD), who also sits on the VW Supervisory Board, has once again campaigned impressively for the return of the purchase premium for electric cars.
A reminder that Lower Saxony’s government owns about 20% of the voting rights to Volkswagen.
Here’s an even weirder part of the article, though, having to do with the sale of the radio tower at that plant:
The fact that VW has now removed the “VW Commercial Vehicles” lettering from the old radio tower at the main station (“Telemoritz”) and sold the tower is not seen as a bad omen in Leine. The buyer of the tower is an investor named Oliver Blume, who is not related to the VW Group CEO.
It turns out Blume (the non-VW one) wants to turn it into an apartment building/retail space. It sounds awesome. I’m a weirdo so I found an article on the project:
What is Oliver Blume’s concept for preserving the Telemoritz? Blume wants to extensively renovate the tower and then encase the so-called shaft with a 20 by 20 meter cube that will accommodate 120 to 130 apartments. “We will absorb the loads via the foundation and thus also relieve the load on the old shaft.” The apartments, with an area of around 25 square meters, large windows and high-quality furnishings, are to be rented for 450 to 500 euros without heating. The income will then finance the costs that Blume has calculated for the renovation. “That will be classic real estate financing.
Hell yeah.
Iron Dames x Porsche
I’m a big fan of global sports car and endurance racing, so I’ve been keenly following the exploits of Iron Dames racing, which has focused on fielding teams of women drivers in various events around the world. The team, which includes Rahel Frey and Michelle Gatting, has competed successfully in all levels of sports car racing.
During the 2022 24 Hours of Le Mans, I was working on a documentary and was set up not too far from their garage, and got to enjoy their exploits in a Ferrari. The teams have also raced in Lamborghini Hurcans and other sports cars.
Now? Expect more Porsches. From the company:
“Porsche X Iron Dames – because every dream matters” is a slogan that represents the close collaboration between Porsche Motorsport and the renowned initiative to promote women in motorsport. The project kicks off with the start of the Asian Le Mans Series next weekend in Sepang, Malaysia. Four fast female drivers will compete in four top series behind the wheel of a Porsche 911 GT3 R. Michelle Gatting from Denmark, Rahel Frey from Switzerland, Sarah Bovy from Belgium and Célia Martin from France will race for the Iron Dames squad in the U.S., Asia, and Europe. The schedule also includes the 24 Hours of Le Mans as part of the FIA World Endurance Championship.
I like that even more than a radio tower apartment.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
I’ve never thought of Nelly’s “Air Force One” as a Posse Cut, but I suppose it is (shout out St. Lunatics). It’s also kinda wholesome, like when Murphy Lee is getting close to a woman selling shoes, and rather than rapping about taking her out he basically just thanks her for helpful service.
The Big Question
Is someone else a bigger triple threat? Who does all three things as well as Hyundai?
Top Image: Kia, Hyundai, Genesis and Hugh Jackman / The Music Man
I am a Hyundai owner: 2016 Sonata Sport 2.0t. Bottom line, on the used market, you’d be hard pressed to find a better value. The 2.0t, from what I have read, has way fewer issues than the other engines (I still wouldn’t tune it though) and I lose next to no oil between changes. The only serious issue I have had is repeated re-gluing of part of the sunroof mechanism under a recall.
Would I buy another? Not sure. Ultimately, it just isn’t that entertaining to drive, and I am starting to get the urge for something more interesting. But as a point A to point B appliance, it’s fine.
My Dad had a Kia Optima with the 2.0T, ran it for a decade and over 100k, no problems. Regular maintenance.
Toyota still does. but they also have pick up trucks for the US market, so if Kia wants to go all out they could still buy Nissan. gut it and take the pickup trucks and reintroduce Skylines and GTR’s using the now old G70 platform and Twin turbo motors, would just have to bring back the stinger manual for the purists.
Distinct I’ll give you, but attractive? I physically recoiled the first time I saw a Santa Fe in the wild. There’s a reason the ads only flash a side view of the rear up for about half a second. That is one of the ugliest designs in recent memory.
I keep hearing that H/K engines are trash. I’m hoping this isn’t universally true because my Dad owns one, but I’m curious to see how that plays out. If a bunch of people get burned by engines blowing up out of warranty it could put a quick-ish end to this growth. Nissan used to be a reasonably well respected budget brand, but unreliable drivetrains sent their reputation straight into the toilet.
Re: Musk, as a former Tesla stockholder and Musk fanboy who is neither of those things anymore, I don’t know what the legal merits of the case are, but I maliciously hope he doesn’t get this. F that guy. Also, for context, if you make 100k a year, it would take you 560000 years to get to 56 billion. It’s absurd and no one is worth that much.
Except, his companies literally saved lives of astronauts. Like, actually went way the f up there and got them down. That’s a cool million right there.
That would be a more compelling argument if firefighters and EMTs who save lives literally every day were paid billions of dollars. It’s fairly apparent that our society doesn’t value human life that highly.
Let’s not forget the train conductors who usher millions around every day. If you wanna go there. lol.
I fail to see the correlation between you, as a “former” fanboy, who decided for whatever reason that it’s now advantageous to hate on another human you have never met.
I say this in the nicest way, stop being a stupid.
No, the people he employs engineered and built the rocket and some other people who were trained by the US government flew it and got them down. He deserves exactly 0 credit for anything.
And Mary Barra has dirty fingernails.
I don’t get the hate. Why can’t this “tribe” just appreciate cool shit, and not be a wet paper bag?
Like, you’d probably suck as a hang.
Appreciating cool shit does not mean you have to fondle Elon’s ballsack.
Nor does any particular situation necessitate the need to go to extremes as a virtue signal.
It’s fucking weird that you would harbor such disdain for a stranger. Imagine if some talked shit all day about you, a person you never met, just because they did something you haven’t.
It’s so strange. Glass houses and all that.
I’m trying to do my part in not letting this place get Jalopy. This includes you, too.
He’s a person I am forced to hear and see almost every hour of every day everywhere I go online completely against my will. He spouts bigoted nonsense garbage views dozens of times a day on the social media platform he purchased specifically to give voice to people that are even bigger bigots than he is. Don’t pretend this is some rando in public I just decided I didn’t like. He’s an utter scumbag and the only people who like him are incels and Divorced Guys who think stroking him off will somehow finally cause their crypto investments to soar. Don’t tell me how to comment.
You aren’t forced to do anything, you dumb dumb.
You brought up the term ball sack. Maybe, it’s time to grab your own back.
It’s not that complicated.
holy shit your takes still suck wow
Thanks:)
It’s about time someone said something.
the purity of what you’re doing has value, let’s be honest
He’s not a random stranger on the street. He puts himself out there. He buys US elections out in the open. He stands on the shoulders of the people who are leaps and bounds more intelligent than he ever will be and claims their work as his. He was a good salesman at one put but now he’s clearly just another money hoarding billionaire. He deserves any kind of criticism a person wants to dump on him.
Says some guy (all due respect) John from Ohio.
He didn’t buy an election. That’s an MSNBC talking point.
Leaders buy talent.
Yep, he’s rich. Big whoop. Rich people move markets. He is doing more right than wrong. Shit, Babe Ruth only hit for .380.
Ah you’re a sycophant. Moving along.
.
By no means am I accusing you of anything, but I am only asking…Like, it’s not a thing to be so obtuse unless you are paid for it, right? Right?
I refuse to believe that my fellow countrymen, with at least a substandard education, can be this dumb on purpose.
It’s all right in front of your face. Like RIGHT THERE. lol
it appears you did not know this about our good friend “getstoney” lol
We do appreciate cool shit. Some of Elmo’s companies have done cool shit, some have done the opposite. Elon Musk himself is not cool shit.
“We”
I’d be pissed if you were including me in that. lol
Saying Musk deserves credit just because he owns SpaceX is like saying Blackstone deserves credit for the look of the Flatiron building because they’re the current landlords. Both contribute nothing and actively take and yet for some reason they get praise simply for sitting on top of the thing other people use and take care of.
Umm, that’s not the same at all, lol. You know this as well.
Being disingenuous to be disingenuous is an odd flex.
What your comment tells me is that you never watched the widely available on YT vids of employee meetings at SpaceX.
Some of this community are so baffling.
No, actually this is one of the better commentariats out there and you’re a fucking shill for this guy, which I find hysterical
I just can’t tell if your bit is serious or ironic, but it really doesn’t matter
Oh, it matters. And, I bet that some of your “favorite commentaries” feel just the same way.
I actually don’t know what this means, but do say more
I’m completely serious
Really?
It’s kinda amazing how you don’t see it.
it’s been a long day and I can’t tell if it’s as obvious as I think it is or if it’s a double-entendre sort of deal
I think you are thinking too hard about it.
It’s simple. Why would you make it difficult?
Funsies is for children.
I don’t make things complicated, that’s the way they get, all by themselves
And yet, here you are, all by yourself, scratching your own brow that is furrowed.
What are you even defining/defending? Being soft?
Because, that is what happened to our vaunted car companies.
They got soft. You asked for it, and you got it.
I mean, having to follow Gov emissions is a thing, no? Because I don’t think anyone actually wants a Turbo 3 or 4 in a vehicle for supposed savings of stuff, especially where a 6 or 8 was before
Irrelevant. The bonus is from Tesla.
True, but it’s a conglomerate.Starlink pays for SpaceX and on and on. They are all tied together.
Tesla is separate from SpaceX and Starlink, which are privately owned.
Yep, and mashed potatoes are different from scalloped when Betty Crocker makes them.
Ben, thousands of Hyundai and Kia owners have been burned by engines that have destroyed themselves with many claims occurring under 60k miles.
This is what I hear. I assume it can’t be a 100% failure rate or there would be an open-and-shut class action, but it’s still concerning how many people are having major problems. Including one of our own commenters (although I’m not sure his issues are all engine-related).
Yes, I don’t think 100% failure as the smart ones get rid of the vehicle before oil consumption destroys the catalytic converter(s) and so on. When our ‘17 Tucson 1.6T oil consumption became up to a quart every 500 miles we dumped it as this is one of the early symptoms of bigger issues.
Used is where Hyundai and Kia really shine. First, they depreciate a more than the big names like Honda and Toyota, so on top of being cheap originally they get even cheaper with age. Reliability can be a concern, but it seems to be very feast-or-famine, depending on exact year and model. Their cars are either perfectly fine, or suffer big issues, and once the model is a few years old it’s usually evident which is which. Just keep an eye out for the duds and buy the known good ones. The hybrids seem to do better I notice.
We’ve got a 2007 Sonata where the worst issue is a floppy sun visor The engine and transmission have been dead solid. Our 2018 Niro PHEV has been likewise great, only issue has been a sticky power side mirror actuator. And we just bought a 2022 Sorento PHEV to replace the Sonata, which unlike the version with the 2.5 turbo is also proving to be a nice reliable vehicle.
As a salvage guy I am seeing that many dealers are refusing to buy anything Hyundai or Kia at auctions and this is driving prices down. The are the red-headed stepchild almost as bad as anything Stellantis.
Having owned a Kia Sorento for far too long and driving a Soul for six months (insurance loaner – part availability kept the Miata in the body shop for six months), all I can say is “threat” is all Kia/Hyundai/Genesis will ever be to me. I’ll never buy another one. Between the dealer experience (sucked), crappy tires (the Sorento became a different vehicle when the original all season tires wore out at 55,000 miles and we got decent tires on it), parts rusting out and failing (front suspension, requiring two new tires) and various other maladies, nope. I’m done. Won’t touch one ever again.
Interesting. I will say that my parents have put almost 200k on their Kia Soul and like it. I will agree that the dealer experience is subpar and needs a ton of work.
The Soul wasn’t bad, but it wasn’t particularly good or even memorable. My kids hated it, though that might have been guilt by association – the car before the Sorento was a Mazda MPV, and both were bright red. Then again, they really didn’t care for the Sorento either, and they weren’t even the ones paying the repair bills.
It’s tough to follow up an MVP as a family vehicle.
Between a lack of immobilizer, a history of massive powertrain issues, poor resale value, and being generally ugly, I will be looking at a Toyota/Honda hybrid for my next runabout. Hopefully, the rumored Corolla refresh materializes next year. The dealer network is not an issue for me as I really only plan on purchasing the vehicle and then never returning again.
I had an Elantra. It worked, but that was about it. It was just so….blah.
I get what they did and why they did it, but never again with that brand. I might as well have bought a JVC TV.
Hyundai/Kia offer all 3 types to account for the engine failures. The Japanese government would not allow them to sell all 3 without the engine failures, else they would put every other car company out of business. It’s done to protect the whole car industry, duh.
Man, Japan really needs to ease up on keeping the Korean brands down 😉
Return of the Greater East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere?
LOL, I’m a dumbass.
What does the Japanese Government have to do with Kia/Hyundai?
Yeah, I missed that joke a bit, huh??
So it wasn’t a coincidence that a couple weeks ago while charging at a Hyundai dealership, I noticed that the metal recycle bin outside was half random parts such as brake disks, and half discarded 4 cylinder engines?
I’m more familiar with the commercial vehicle side, but I do feel like the Koreans in general have a pretty good balance between the Chinese methods of freak out, go as fast as possible, and break things, and the US/EU methods of sit and analyze everything for years, then go back and rethink things, and finally maybe consider moving forward with something new.
this is like the hidden fact that Subaru dealers get shipments of CVTs and short blocks multiple times a week, everyone knows this, and no one covers it
If they can’t improve their reliability, then they need to improve their dealership experience. I made the mistake of buying a used Corolla from a Kia dealership (yeah yeah not the best example) and the whole experience was awful. If I wasn’t desperate for a reliable long-distance commuter, I would have bounced sometime between the saleman vaping next to me in the parking lot and him later lying about another prospective buyer wanting to look at the vehicle so I would get to signing.
I like the look they’ve got going, and the warranty is nice, but if they cannot back it up with decent sales practices and timely service, then I’m not buying.
You may have heard: Dealership sales and service are not run by the corporate carmaker.
Dealerships are separate owners.
They’re not run by the automakers, but the corporate overlords have a lot of say when it comes to dealership practices. H/K dealers are, almost without exception, godawful shit holes that are run by some of the most evil people who have ever lived and make obscene amounts of money by lying to poor people. They are horrible, awful dealerships, and H/K is likely well-aware of this but they’ve chosen to look the other way because they know how to put people on the hook for 72 months at 15% interest for a $25k Elantra or whatever.
If it were just me who had a bad experience, I’d look the other way. Instead, I see the same complaints about them time and time again.
The only way H/K is going to mend this is if it starts hurting their bottom line and that doesn’t seem to be a problem for them at the moment.
Tell us how Corporate has control over Dealerships, which they are dependent upon to get their product sold?
Because if they’re all awful – Which I believe they are – and they’re getting the product to sell – which they are – where’s the incentive to do better?
I concur what NSX said. Hyundai and Kia have a say in how their dealers operate. They don’t have total control, and the dealers can absolutely push back, but there is a lot they can do. Don’t play dumb and pretend otherwise.
That’s not how things work in the real world.
In the real world – when you have a business partner who you cannot get rid of, and you cannot get your product distributed without, but you know they suck – You shake their hand and pat them on the back a couple times a year, accept the money and move on with your business.
Especially when your captive business partner knows that some of your product sucks too.
If what you say is entirely true, then all dealerships would suck – and that is not how things work in the real world.
Anilyst is the Triple Threat that could’ve doubled as your “what I’m listening to”
I always thought the ultimate triple threat was Fred Astaire. His acting and singing were above average for the golden age, and of course he was the greatest dancer in the history of dancing.
Plus, you got Edward Everett Horton for comic relief.
But is his song literally called Triple Threat? Checkmate.
Umm…not even close with the dancing, ha.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNKRm6H-qOU
Ol’ Freddie wasn’t bad for a white boy, but the Nicholas Brothers? That’s D3 v. the NFL. 😉
Not bad, but the real magic with Fred was when Ginger was his partner. She was never as good as him, but he made her better.
Sure, but they never jumped off of pianos, lol.
Well…
https://www.google.com/search?q=fred+astaire+jumping+off+piano&sca_esv=a56365fc73be1e3b&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS814US814&sxsrf=ADLYWIJjAAnEFxF77fg5o8COkfBv7SjoFw%3A1733255790520&ei=bmJPZ6i8H63tptQP3Z3s8QU&ved=0ahUKEwioq8v9sIyKAxWttokEHd0OO14Q4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=fred+astaire+jumping+off+piano&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHmZyZWQgYXN0YWlyZSBqdW1waW5nIG9mZiBwaWFubzIEECMYJzIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBEjsCVCfBFifBHABeACQAQCYAUGgAUGqAQExuAEDyAEA-AEBmAICoAJGwgILEAAYgAQYsAMYogSYAwCIBgGQBgSSBwEyoAfNAw&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:793886e0,vid:2Qsnf5pTl1Y,st:0
Fabulous! My parents were ballroom dancers and I used to be able to do the tip the chair over bit.
I just have to say that this existing as a thread on the same post as one arguing over Elong in another thread, and one discussing the number of vehicles named after southwestern American towns by manufacturer in a third is amazing. It’s why this site is exceptional.
That is oddly hot in a prison sex way, lol. Fair enough. Fín.
If you limit by the somewhat random criteria “must have EVs” and “must have sedans”, then yeah H/K offers more than anyone else.
I’d say their lack of trucks is a much bigger deal than Ford’s lack of sedans or Toyota’s lack of competitive EVs.
EVs and especially sedans are niches and while its good that some companies offer them both, I hardly think they are necessary for success in today’s market.
I echo many other commenters below in saying H/K sells well because they are competitive on price in key segments and offer a long warranty.
Would Americans want a truck-truck from H/K? We’ve more or less adopted the Tundra but it’s still an also-ran and isn’t a true full-size in terms of capability and lack of a diesel option.
The mid-size and smaller segment may be more open to a Korean truck but it will take time. The Tacoma has too much of a legacy to be dethroned as best seller. Even against only the Ranger, Colorado, and Frontier, it is a tough segment to be in.
If they bring their newly announced Tasman, it’s DOA unless they do a complete exterior redesign.
To be clear, the Tundra is a true full-size half ton truck and has been competitive in that segment (capability wise, not sales wise) since 2007. It’s true that there’s no HD model or diesel.
I don’t think a Kia truck would sell well here, but I also don’t think Ford or GM reintroducing sedans would be a sales success either. We stereotype truck buyers as being especially loyal and shutting out new entrants to the market, but after 40 years, I think the same can be said for Accord and Camry buyers.
Basically all this is to say that I think specialization is OK and there’s no reason every company needs to offer a product in every segment.
I misunderstood your comment. Yeah, I like your points.
Indeed, the fun part about writing is this is I get to make the categories. H/K are also untouched in the category of “vehicles named for the American Southwest.”
Another way to look at it is competitiveness on the low end of the market, regardless of body style. I think H/K do well here compared to Ford and Stellantis. GM, obviously, also has good offerings in the subcompact and compact CUV range.
GM used to put up a real fight here (El Camino, Cimarron, Pontiac Phoenix), but with the demise of the Malibu, they are just down to the Colorado I believe.
This gives me a great idea for a post, actually…
Silverado is a town in southern California. Acadia is in slightly less southern California (by LA).
I think you are thinking of Arcadia. Acadia is a national park in Maine.
GM does have the Tahoe, though.
I’ve been to Acadia National Park and spent some time in bah haabaa. It’s gorgeous and I figured that was more likely the source of the name. But I also though there was an Acadia near LA but as you pointed out I’m wrong and my reputation for knowing all of the cities and towns of southern California is now tarnished. Because of that pesky extra r.
No worries. There are only about 200 actual towns in SoCal and another 1000 communities within LA City proper. Time to bone up. Oh, and some of those LA communities will change their name in the next three minutes or so.
I think the confusion arises because California has an Arcadia (LA area) and an Arcata (way up north on the coast.) No Acadia though.
I had no idea Silverado was a place, I assumed they just liked the name as a generic foreign sounding thing, like Toronado or Camaro.
I’m not sure that place was the reason for the name of the truck. But it exists.
GMC Canyon?
While they occupy a different market segment BMW also got this very right. They still have crazy ICE stuff like the M2, they offer a wide range of hybrids from mild to plug in, and they also have competitive BEVs. Hell even their mild hybrid/pure ICE offerings tend to be way more fuel efficient than their competitors, which is a huge selling point in today’s market and climate.
They also did this incredible thing more OEMs should do-which is make their BEVs work and feel the same as their ICE cars. You could go between a 430i and an i4 and barely notice a difference…so when EV curious people turn in their leased ICE cars some of them can be talked into making the switch.
It’s basically the same thing as Hyundai/Kia/Genesis. Both brands also have a range of EVs that go from normal cars that happen to be electric (Niro, GV70, i5, etc) all the way to weird experimental tech pods like the iX and Ioniqs…and to make things even more comparable they all have questionable long term reliability! Ayyyyyyy
We were long time Hyundai owners that bought new. Not again, for a while, after our Sonata was devoid of oil too often. Our kid loves their Soul and it has been fantastic. People keep telling her it will die at 10000 miles even thought she as put 140k since it was new. People remember cheap junk cars for much longer than they deserve. Just like many thought toyote and honda were cheap junk junk long after they were not (back in the 70-90s).
What I wonder now is: how different is Hyundai quality from that of Saturn way back?
Apples to oranges maybe, but at least at a glance, Hyundai seems to be occupying the same niche as did Saturn.
Don’t forget how big a deal the Saturn dealership & ownership experience was at the time.
They had owners events with huge groups; unheard of stuff for a mass market brand to this day. The no-haggle pricing was revolutionary.
By contrast, all I’ve heard is negative reviews of H/K dealerships.
I think 2000s Saturn poses a bit of a different case. The products weren’t necessarily different or better than competitive domestics even within GM (like the S-Series had been). Saturn buyers were more open to import brands, less so paying the premium for them. Incentives moved in, plastic body panels moved out. Loyalty was at risk already, the ION was hit or miss, the Astra caught on with no one. Quality was going backwards and if you had been burned by transmissions or timing chains or what-have-you, that long warranty does probably look pretty appealing. Kia dealers may have their BS but when it’s already cheaper it does look like a better value to start.
I want to say a number of Saturn dealers – the buildings, if not ownership – flipped into Kia franchises, as they were certainly growing. That may be more anecdotal, trying to recall from memory.
Yeah, Saturn was a good idea but they gave up on it too quickly and it basically did become Kia.
A Saturn dealer turning into a Kia dealer is like having a beloved neighbor die, and the property left behind turning into a haunted house.
Our closest Saturn dealer where my family bought from was vying for a Kia franchise when the brand was dropped. It got squashed by the bigger dealer group that owned their building…that had gotten the franchise for themselves at the same time and was going to put it in across the street.
It dabbled as a preowned building before eventually doing duty as a Fiat showroom (take that!). I think Alfa also moved in eventually and now both moved back to a Dodge store once the clause on “separate everything” passed and FCA knew dealers would probably revolt if they tried to continue it. It’s back to being a preowned building.
Subaru was another I remember seeing mentioned as a brand Saturn owners were likely to defect to, which does track for the quirky factor.
Our local dealer had an annual lobster dinner for owners. A little gimmicky, but by all accounts the customer service there was Lexus-esque.
There was all kinds of stuff like that. I remember an event at the zoo for owners when my dad had his.
They really did a pretty nice job with customer loyalty. Every person I’ve ever known that owned a Saturn still misses the brand. Especially up here in the frozen north, where a number of Saturns still roam, with corrosion free body panels.
Look out, salt gets behind the plastic and they basically crumble into dust without visual signs.
RIP my SC2.
Oh absolutely. Rust will still turn your Saturn to dust, eventually.
But at least you got to enjoy owning a car that appeared to be well sorted until it finally gave out. Everything around here looks miserable after 10+ years. Saturns look good until they fail spectacularly.
Plastic body panels aside, I would say 1st gen Saturn S series (1990-95) were better than any Hyundai/Kia past or present.
Everything post 2000 is a very mixed bag for Saturn (thanks for nothing, GM management). Though they were still much safer than their Korean contemporaries.
The Saturn purchase experience was also excellent (no haggle policy) while Hyundai/Kia was and is awful.
No one ever paid 3k above sticker for a Saturn Outlook only to have it stolen by a punk with a USB drive the same day. Damn that’s embarrassing for everyone.
The dealership experience thing (also flagged by V10omous) intrigues me. In our social media era, criticism and anger fly at nearly the speed of light, but also, praise and “good vibes” can make something go viral.
I wonder if the Saturn dealership experience were brought back, would it make a difference for sales? Or put another way, how is H/K able to get away with such a terrible one, and could it really benefit from taking the time to craft a good one?
By all accounts HK should be in the same straits as Nissan right now. They’ve walked through raindrops like nobody’s business.
That said, Tesla’s purchase process is not entirely dissimilar to Saturn’s and a big reason for their success.
Automakers and the NADA are too greedy to enforce the level of fair treatment necessary to make this experience commonplace (at both an employee and customer level).
I was thinking of getting a Model 3 (if I can ever afford a new car again. which is iffy at best) because when I thought about getting something else, the flashbacks to last time made my skin crawl.
And dealers just gotta dealerize and make sure that state laws let them get away with it. I’m convinced that if drug dealers treated their customers like car dealers we’d have no illegal drug problem, because withdrawal would be a walk in the park (and not Needle Park, either) compared to the four-square method and the journey through the wondrous land of F&I. (The Sacklers would still have gotten their tons of flesh, though.)
Hyundai and Kia got it right by showing up as the budget brand for those who had no choice, and growing with them. They also kept improving the cars (from a driving/operating/style standpoint). I worked for Hyundai dealerships from 2010-2016 in various roles, and the 2011 Sonata shook the market up. It was stylish, it was affordable, it was packed with features, and it was efficient and powerful. We couldn’t take delivery fast enough. People were literally following the transports onto the lot and pointing to one and yelling that they wanted it (yes, that really happened a handful of times at the dealership I was at). Until the current generation of Sonata and Elantra, they kept doing that. This generation is fugly. In the meantime though, they’re building the best-looking SUVs on the market, and a little compact pickup that’s different and niche enough for a cult following.
If only their long-term reliability was as good as the rest of the vehicles.
That’s the kicker, isn’t it? I love my Kona N but once it hit the two year mark shit started going bad. The AC went out for a couple of days and magically came back when their technician looked at it, then it went into limp mode twice. The first time they thought it was symptomatic (and it was) of a recall and did the fix.
When it happened the second time they were a lot more confused. It kept throwing knock sensor codes so they replaced them. It’s been fine since, but if it happens again the next step is…you guessed Hyundai/Kia knower, a full engine replacement. It currently has 16,000 miles on the clock and has had all of its preventive maintenance.
Do I like my Hyundai? Definitely. Will I ever buy another? Definitely not, unfortunately….and my experience is far from an anomaly so their long term popularity is a big asterisk if they can’t figure out their issues.
Sure HyundaiKiaGenesis make and sell a lot of cars, but people buy them because they are cheap appliances with good warrantys. They’re extremely unreliable, so much so that, correct me if im wrong, the government made them have such an extensive warranty if they wanted to continue selling cars here (in the US).
No, they don’t have any mandated warranty beyond that required for all manufacturers (eg, on emissions systems), the 10 year/100,000 mile was a marketing tool to get consumers to trust an unfamiliar brand with a sub-par reputation, and worked
Other shaky manufacturers have pushed warranties as a confidence building took in the past, from AMC to Chrysler to BL to Yugo, it’s a tried and true strategy, Hyundai just got way more aggressive with theirs and got much more traction as a result
Ah thank you for correcting me, i heard that a long time ago and since i’m too lazy to google it i just continue to spread misinformation, as most people do.
I’ve also heard even reputable sources talk about some mythical 10 year parts support mandate, which doesn’t exist and never has, the government just requires that major emissions components like ECUs or catalytic converters be supported for at least 8 years/80,000 miles, but they’ve never cared at all if you can’t source a new bumper or window regulator after 4 or 5 years
The 10 year parts support is a thing, but a Germany thing.
I wouldn’t touch anything Kia/Hyundai makes these days. Most of the people I know who own them are having serious problems- namely in that they use a lot of oil… as in more than a quart between fillups.
More than once I had to put oil in our (no gone) sonata just to drive to get the oil changed.
The only problem I’ve had, aside from the infotainment occasionally shutting off randomly or the seatbelt warning turning on for no reason, is that the shocks and struts all totally failed at 2 years/90,000 miles, completely shot
Oh, and the advanced driver aides suck, the forward collision alert is useless, and lane keeping is alternately completely ineffective or overly aggressive, depending on how fresh the lane markings are
90k in 2 years 😮
Traveling sales, it’s at just under 100k now, 2022 Ioniq
I do split personal mileage over two other vehicles, so most of that is work related
I’d say 90k is a reasonable/average lifetime for suspension components on any car. Especially one that gets driven almost 1000mi per week!
Are they sludging up the oil rings like the old Saturn 1.9 4 banger? If that’s the root cause this new Valvoline R&P oil should be pretty helpful for them.
Could be. But my 2015 Soul uses less than half a quart between (“severe duty” 3500 mile) oil changes. Granted it’s only got 50K on the clock.
I tend to like Hyundai and Kia cars when I rent them. They have good interfaces. I also have a fair number of long term ownership concerns as well. I’m running mostly Toyotas for now in the personal fleet.
Only one car in the fleet has less than 150k.
Hyundai may have a great mix of powertrains, but they really should put more effort into refining said powertrains. I guess this mostly only pertains to the ICE cars that I’m aware of, but the sheer number of engine recalls and other insanely major issues that seem to plague nearly all of their gas models is astounding. I will not buy one simply based on that. I know far too many people who needed engine replacements with shockingly low miles to trust them. And usually one doesn’t fix it. I know people who got 3 new engines under warranty, and then immediately sold the car after the warranty expired. Their designers are the best in the business, but I don’t want an art sculpture in my garage, I want something that can reliably get me to work and to kids’ activities, and Hyundai is not that.
Right now, it’s looking strongly like my next car will be another Hyundai – though hopefully not for a couple years – and the diversity of the lineup is a huge part of that.
We want to go full EV, so that already limits options. We don’t particularly want a CUV, so that limits our options even more. We won’t buy a Tesla for both moral reasons and because of an awareness of their quality control issues.
Because of all of this, we have one option: Hyundai Ioniq 6. Whether or not there’s a huge market for sedans – EV or otherwise – there is still a market. And Hyundai/Kia have been very keen on trying to have something in as many markets as possible, instead of just reducing everything down to a slightly sad CUV.
Bought a used Ioniq 6 a month and a half ago. Hyundai did a lot right with it. In almost 40 years of driving, it’s the first car I’ve owned that feels like a “grown up” car. I’m still trying to come to grips with how many recalls the company has put out, but I see it as Hyundai is trying to ensure the product is operational and the errors are addressed. Plenty of other automakers seem to put off recalls and just push out TSBs until they are mandated by the government.
The reality is there is no other company in the US that is a triple threat like Hyundai/Kia. Sure individual companies may have arguably better EV tech (Tesla), ICE engines (many) or Hybrids (Toyota), but nobody can get close to the fullness of the portfolio. It’s easy to say “well XYZ manufacturer has a better vehicle in #123 size class than H/K/G” but many, many consumers do not know better. An average consumer can walk into a Hyundai/Kia/Genesis dealer and be as unsure as possible about what they want, and the sales people can easily find something that fits that persons needs.
It shouldn’t be understated why this is such a good sales tactic. “Oh you really like this EV, but aren’t sure if you’re ready to go all electric? Here’s a PHEV that’s a perfect compromise!” “Oh you really like this crossover but want to save on gas, here’s both a Hybrid and a PHEV!” and couple that with a killer powertrain warranty, and you move serious metal. The average consumer doesn’t realize the experience of sorting out warranty repairs is a nightmare, or that the dealer is maybe slightly sketchier than a Toyota dealer. The diehard Toyota, Honda, or other specific manufacturer buyer isn’t who walks into an H/K/G dealer.
Couple this powertrain variety with striking designs that catch peoples attention, and you get people into the showrooms. Sure the styling of a Kia may be a bit too much, but you’ve got Hyundai to cover your bases (mostly). Also an extremely strong value proposition with lots of features per dollar, and no wonder sales figures keep taking off. Say what you will about dubious reliability, dealer experiences, and thefts, but they continue to make a better case for themselves than just about any other automaker to the average, unbiased and undecided consumer.
Relieving the load on the old Telemoritz shaft sounds kind of messy. Maybe they should encase it in latex, instead.
Kiundai has a fantastic product lineup hindered by a terrible dealer network, which makes the quality issues that crop up a bigger pain in the ass than they have any right to be (the quality issues themselves are not unique to them, of course; every brand contends with some quality issues). If they can improve their dealership experience on both sales and service sides, they’ll really have something great. If not for a series of ridiculous issues getting my Niro fixed, I’d probably be driving an EV6 right now.
They have pretty BAD issues though. Not just annoying things like recalls over something that might happen. They have millions of cars on the roads with those awful 4 banger engines that burn quarts of oil. The problem is so massive that the wait time to get a replacement engine is insane. And that is with the company doing all it can to avoid replacing them. I have two folks with these and both are using more than a qt of oil between gassing them up. Not your garden variety problem.
That’s fair. I don’t know what percentage of their vehicles have had major issues, but the oil burning and the lack of an immobilizer are both big ones, and they are recent and memorable.
I lucked out and the issues I faced were minor, but the repairs still took repeated visits and they kept screwing things up. I shudder to think about how much damage they would do with a major repair. And I don’t think I’m going to risk finding out firsthand.
Price. Whats the point if both warranties are the same for the Hyundai and the Honda if the transmission fails right outside of warranty? May as well have the one that cost you less. If companies want more sales either have a warranty that backs up those absurd prices or have your price reflect that warranties haven’t changed since the 1990’s.
But the warranties aren’t the same. Hyundai is 10 years, Honda is what – like 3?
Exactly. Cheaper and longer warranty? No wonder they’re killing it. I’m a Toyota fan, and currently drive a Honda but their warranties don’t back up their claim of reliability, or the associated premium price.
Hyundai/Kia: 5 yr/60k bumper to bumper, 10 yr/100k powertrain
Toyota, Honda, most others: 3 yr/36k, 5 yr/60k respectively
Of course part of it is a reassurance tool, Honda and Toyota already had earned the reputation for reliability long ago and that was also reflected in their resale values. Hyundai/Kia put the warranty in place to try and do the same. Now Toyota/Honda have had their share of quality issues too, but on the order of the H/K GDI engines? They didn’t appear to just roll over and say “you’re right, these engines are bad, new engine for you.”
Mitsubishi. 5/60 bumper-to-bumper, 10yr/100k powertrain and engines that don’t self destruct at 60k.
I’ll personally never own a Hyundai, Kia, nor Genesis vehicle (based on experiences with older models and dealing with the company in a previous job).
My neighbor has a Genesis. It’s had a lot of warranty covered problems but the store treats him like a potentate including pickup and delivery from a facility about 40 miles away. Recently the store has changed owners to one of the big private equity mega groups so will be interesting to see if they continue.
I have a 11-year-old Hyundai that’s been recalled twice in the past year. The most recent was for an ABS issue. The dealer’s service writer told me that my car needed the recall and they would call me when the parts came in. That was 4 months ago.
Also, because Hyundai was too cheap to install an immobilizer, my car costs twice as much to insure as a similar car from a different manufacturer would.
Pardon me for being a bit sour on H/K.
Why would you insure a 11 yr old car for anything but liability coverage? Or is that also affected by the theft problem?
I mean, comprehensive isn’t just for big accidents. It’ll still come in handy if a mirror is broken or it needs a new windshield.
My impression is that liability covers damage caused by the car, even if it’s driven by a thief. At least in my state. My liability on a (no immobilizer) ’15 Soul has more than doubled since 2016. Inflation has only been 32% over that period.