Do you also do a thing when you travel where you instinctively look at the local Craigslist just in case? It’s not even that I expect to buy a car, it’s that I need to know what it would be like if I lived there. This has only gotten stronger since I moved to New York, where the cars I’m interested in are both too expensive and look like abandoned oil refineries when you look underneath them.
Mark is fine, but he’s dealing with some family stuff so I’ve volunteered to step in to pick up today’s SBSD. The kids are playing, the in-laws are out doing something, and I’m warmly enjoying the basement spare room.
Yesterday’s battle was between a ’60s VW-based Dune Buggy and a sweet early ’70s Oldsmobile Toronado. I’m usually in the minority on my SBSD votes, so I was pleasantly surprised to see that a narrow majority of you agreed the FWD boat is better than the Buggy. A lot of this, I suspect, has to do with price and condition. The Buggy is some sort of strange kit and a barely complete one at that. The Olds looks ready to cruise. I also have a theory that large Malaise Era boats are making a comeback.
I’m currently in Western Michigan so I’m going to go in the complete opposite direction of this SBSD. What if it’s winter and you need to drive something cheap and just a little fun? The obvious answer isn’t RWD, though RWD in the snow can be fun if all you want to have is fun. AWD is the safe bet, but safe bets are rarely fun. FWD gives you the comfort of something that’ll track reasonably straight when roads turn wintry, as well as the joy of perfectly yanking a parking brake for a drifty turn.
Today I’ve got a couple of great options.
2010 Pontiac Vibe GT – $4,395
Engine/drivetrain: Toyota’s 2.4-liter 2AZ-FE inline-four, FWD, five-speed manual
Location: Lakeview, Michigan
Odometer reading: 194,900
Operational status: Runs and drives
It has been well established around these parts that the Pontiac Vibe is actually an excellent car, although the 1st generation car is generally more prized due to its more attractive aesthetic. I normally forget about the 2nd-generation Vibe, which remains a platform twin to the Toyota Matrix and was built at the jointly-owned Toyota/GM NUMMI facility in California.
While this doesn’t have the cool, two-tone faux rugged look of the 1st-gen car, this model does pick up the larger 2.4-liter 2AZ-Fe inline-four that also did duty in the same era RAV-4 and Camry. This isn’t necessarily a hot rod engine, but 152 horsepower and 162 lb-ft of torque it’s a decent step up over the outgoing Vibe GT.
This one seems to be remarkably clean for its high miles, and the fact that it doesn’t appear to have much rust underneath is a sign to me that this car didn’t spend almost 200,000 miles in Western Michigan and instead arrived from a different state. Otherwise, someone was keeping this car in the garage for winter, which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense given that it’s a Vibe GT.
This car is almost 15 years old and everything looks to be in order, with only a little seat-cracking here and there. I’ve seen four-year-old cars with worse interiors. The most important ingredients for happy happy fun time are the real e-brake and five-speed manual transmission.
Because the car has such high miles on it I wouldn’t feel bad hooning the crap out of it in winter. Yeah, it’s a nice car, but it’s a high-mileage econobox Camry built with a stout Toyota motor. Maybe rinse it off after you have some fun and it’ll last at least a few more Decembers.
2010 Honda Civic – $3,500
Engine/drivetrain: Honda’s 1.8-liter inline-four, FWD, five-speed manual
Location: Conklin, Michigan
Odometer reading: 199,900
Operational status: Runs and drives
This one is definitely ready to be a winter beater. Just look at how it was photographed. This car has probably served in this role for a long time and the owner is only selling it because he or she “needed a truck.” Otherwise, the car runs and drives great, according to the seller, and looks to be in better-than-decent shape.
While it has almost identical mileage to the Vibe GT, it is a little down on power at only 140 horses, although the Civic Coupe is almost certainly lighter. And, like the Pontiac, it shares the two keys to FWD winter fun:
Yup, manual parking brake and manual transmission. All you need to have a good time on a low-friction surface.
All of the photos from the seller are inconveniently cropped like it was shot on an IMAX camera for some reason, so you’ll have to use your imagination for interior quality. My guess is that it’s in at least decent shape given what I can see here. It’s an older Honda. They tend to hold up fairly well.
Would I love to see under the car? Unlike the Vibe, I’m assuming a little rust here, although nothing on the outside shows signs that it’s spread.
It’s an older Honda, so as long as it isn’t rusting through you should be able to fix anything broken on it fairly efficiently. Right?
All photos: Sellers
This vintage of Honda’s have way fewer rust issues (me looking at the undersides of each while changing my kids oil). My son’s ’93 Corolla held up way better than their later model Matrix. Both spent decades in the rust belt.
Honest question: What is a good way for someone to sell/market a winter beater car if they live outside the rust belt? My car would be an excellent candidate, I’m not in a huge rush to sell. Rust-free in VA, FWD, ABS, stability control, traction control, heated seats, very well maintained, timing chain, no leaks, easy to work on. Winter tires would make it a beast.
I’d think you’d just sell it as a “beater with a heater.” I’ve seen that all over the country!
Tell me which one has a more recent timing belt service, and I’ll know which one to pick. Otherwise, complete tossup.
I think the Vibe wins on the basis of hatchback
Didn’t several years of the Matrix have issues?
I went Honda Civic because one saved my life. A 1989 Honda Civic Dx manual transmission. Rolling it over 4x and not a scratch on my Adonis like body and less than $1,000 to get it road worthy again.
I voted for the vibe because the nearest Honda dealership is over 100 miles from my house and there’s two GM dealerships within 10 miles.
But how far is an independent mechanic?
This right here. I’ve never taken a car to a dealership. I have an independent garage up the road that appears to be staffed by oil-stained pirates, is cheap as shit, and can handle any car thrown at them. There’s one every five miles, everywhere, I’m sure of it.
My favorite mechanic is a small town guy who does most of the work in town. He tells me what parts I need then tells me to order them myself from RockAuto to save on his markup. His work is excellent, his rates are low and he offers me a beer when I pick up my truck.
Meanwhile, a dealership I used insisted on a complete $250 vehicle examination before they would do any work.
There’s an awesome independent mechanic less than a mile up the road from my house. That’s where I bring any vehicles that I don’t feel like working on myself.
Never brought him any foreign vehicles before, though.
Around here GM dealers won’t even touch a car that’s greater than 10 years old. Will yours?
Yeah, unless it is under warranty, a good independent is the way to go. Neither of these is so exotic as to need a niche shop.
I had a Civic coupe, same year, same color, and I loved it. But I would never buy anything from the Rust Belt unless it had never seen a winter there.
The Vibe for sure. Bigger and more comfortable
BOTH. But voted for the Vibe, which was the runner up for our first family car. (A manual VUE won, and turned out to be a great car too.) With teens who need first cars, these both look promising.
Bought an ’09 Vibe for my 19 yo daughter – she absolutely adores it.
Toyota without the Toyota tax.
Both are good choices, but the Vibe wins on account of being a hatchback which increases its usability.
i spent a week in conklin one night…it’s a special place.
That Vibe has another 100,000 miles left in it, easy. Pontiac all the way today.
Can concur – bought one with 260k for my daughter this summer. It’s just a Corolla wagon.
Civic easily. I love the Vibe (ha!) but I’ve owned enough low-production run cars where parts get hard to find just a few years after the car goes out of production that a beater HAS to be something that they made a ton of.
Sincerely, a Honda CR-Z and two-time Mazda Millenia owner.
Toyota sold the same car as the Matrix. All the underpinnings are Corolla. Engine/trans are Corolla or Camry.
Parts are not hard to come by.
Not just the engine, I’m talking trim pieces or windows, stuff that wears out or breaks long before the engine would
These were about as badge engineered by Pontiac as you can get. I bet 85% of the trim is shared. Body shell is identical. The biggest difference is bumpers and lighting. Most interior trim is identical as well.
I get that, but I still see more CRZs running around than I do Matrixes… Matrices? So anecdotally it seems like even pulling from junkyards will be difficult
I’ll vote for Nick and say Civic, obviously.
I picked the Vibe against type, just because the Honda owner “needed a truck.” You don’t need a truck. No one needs a truck. And when you do need a truck, Home Depot will give you one for $20 for the day you need it. Fight me.
I agree with you, but arguments could be made that you also don’t need a convertible, an suv, hell, you don’t even need a car if you live in the city. Take the bus. So let them have their trucks.
Oh, it’s not like I can stop her. I’m also not gonna enable her, either.
But what if people want comfortable trucks?…
…yeah, I’m not thrilled with the proliferation of pickups either. But there’s a handful of arguments for them I can relate to even if I think there should absolutely be fewer out there overall.
I think you’ve hit another reason for the popularity of trucks as drivers: they’re comfortable! Too many other vehicles today are just not that comfortable, even the larger ones. Trucks (non super-duty unless people find that live axle shudder and shake to be comfortable) are the new land yacht.
I tow a travel trailer 10 times, and 8k miles a year, and use the bed regularly, I can justify a truck. Your mileage may vary…
There are times would love to have an old S10 or Ranger on the property. 2wd is fine, I just want the bed for mulch, trash, yard debris, demolition debris, etc… All the stuff I can haul in my ’05 MDX but don’t really want too. The hitch mount cargo rack only goes so far.
If Home Depot actually has one available. Any time I look it, it is not available. Of course it was there yesterday when I went to get something.
You can also order lumber and such for delivery, but there is value in realizing you have a free afternoon, so you take the truck over to the lumber yard and get what you need to fix something. No one wants materials sitting in their backyard for weeks while you get around to it.
But I am also not going to spend a bunch of money on a weekend warrior pickup truck. I also don’t want the standard “commuter” crew cab 5.5′ bed truck you see everywhere. I want a real bed for long stuff. I can fit 8′ boards in my Prius and close the hatch. So I don’t have a truck.
Lots of people need trucks for their jobs.
And for the “just use a van” folks, do you want to come take the car seats out (and store them???) when we go to the lumber yard 3 days a week?
I have one, chrisp US dollar that says this lady is not using this for business. For every legitimate work truck out there, I’d lay odds that there are 10(or more) trucks that have beds that see real use less than three times a year.
Those Home Depot rentals are not $20. Always look at the fine print. In my area, the fine print says it’s $19 for the first 75 minutes. That’s just an hour and 15 minutes to do truck stuff. The daily rate, and I’m talking about the smallest truck here, is $129. Unlimited miles, but it’s not like you’re going to drive far in 75 minutes.
U-Haul isn’t any better. People love to talk about moving entire houses for just $20, but fail to say anything about the mandatory mileage fee and the requirement to return the truck with as much fuel as you received it.
This year I sold every vehicle I use for towing. So, when I had to move a trailer just 100 feet, I had to rent a tow vehicle. The nearest U-Haul shop was 11 miles away. So, I paid $20 for the truck, $22 in mileage, and then another $10 in gas just to move a trailer exactly 100 feet.
Oh, and getting and returning the truck burned an extra hour of time. Everything would have been substantially worse had I actually needed to move the trailer an actual distance.
Had I still owned a truck or my beater Touareg, I would have just driven up to the trailer, moved it, and driven home.
I then had that Can-Am side-by-side press loaner for two months. Once again, every time I wanted to go off-roading I had to borrow or rent a truck. It was cute the first time, but it got annoying in no time flat.
Renting only works if you maybe do truck stuff a couple of times a year. The second you need to haul or tow with any real frequency you will be sick of throwing money and time at rentals or constantly asking someone to borrow a truck.
Minivans are an alternative if you just do hauling, but they can’t tow much weight. Jason’s communal truck idea is great, but nobody does that, so you’re right back to buying a truck or a big work van.
Yes, but, we’re only insulated from the ‘I bought a Leopard tank to tow my collection of homebrew half-track Smart Cars to the Track on an Australian Land Train Rig’ article by the fact that it’s not financially feasible to do that right now. You’re clearly awesome, but you are not a normal use case, innit ????
You can get a Sherman for a lot cheaper. Don’t believe the Ford GAA hype, the Chrysler multibank is the way to go!
I’d posit that most people’s truck stuff is an hour or so haul junk to the dump, but you don’t exactly have a standard use case. And I admit that the last time I needed to rent a Home Depot truck, it was long enough ago that it was, indeed, 20 dollars for the several hours it took to clear a billionty tons of brush from my creek. My hyperbole was pointed at the vast likelyhood that the “needed” truck in the ad is for keeping up with Joneses.
The better deal is a Budget box truck—holds way more piled higher that won’t get blown out while driving and has a ramp for what can be a cheaper deal with less stress about getting it back. Any time I’ve needed a truck, I needed more truck than the handbag-sized beds that come with most full size trucks can handle. Now I can generally do more than a truck bed with an easier loading 5×8 utility trailer towed behind a sports car.
“needs a truck” “just needs a tune-up” “no pets” “easy fix”
sellers tell all sorts of lies in ads for some reason.
Bought a dirt cheap 260,000 mile 2009 Vibe for the daughter over the summer. It is a solid little car (Corolla wagon). Hers just has the 1.8 and an auto but is going strong with only brakes, new fluids, filters, plugs and coils. Had to de-boy-racer the exhaust too. Wife has a Corolla that has needed almost nothing over the course of ownership.
Once cleaned, the interior looks near new. These are rugged cars.
Toyota FTW
Both are solid choices, but as much as I love hatchbacks, I hate gray. That era of Civic is an all-around nice car, is in a nice shade of blue, and is a coupe, which is basically an extinct body style at this point. And it’s cheaper – which is sort of important for a winter beater. So I’m going Civic.
I’m always tempted by those Hondas, as a friend of mine had an ’06 Civic he put 440,000 miles on before it was destroyed by a deer. This one here appears pretty crusty though. Besides, I just acquired a 2010 GTi. Along with our 2014 Spark, and the 2012 Volt, it just feels right to continue adding to the 4-door hatch-collection.
Wagon, for versatility, though the second generation dumped the 2ZZ 180hp engine AND 6-speed manual for a larger and weaker engine and one less gear. Vibe visually has nothing on its Toyota Matrix twin. But I’m biased, and both have GM’s shitty climate controls.
Great work Matt! I actually like both of these and really like and miss Pontiac but have to go w/ the Civic. I just like it more and I love the blue. It’s great these are both stick. I’ve heard a lot of good “vibes” about the Vibe but prefer Hondas…I’ll make it last a long time too
Matt! Please! Hear me out if you’re doing the next shitbox showdown for Mark. Give us two cars with the Xtronic CVT, just once. Give your readers a real treat.
Shitbox Showdown – The Last Two Cars on Planet Earth
2009 Nissan Rogue VS 2014 Nissan Sentra
It would set a new record for lowest reader engagement ever on this site.
Edit: on second thought… the comments section would be pure gold. Let’s do it!
Walking in the freezing rain.
Fuck, no. A spavined, geriatric mule instead, thanks.
Either that or an Xtronic vs a Powershift.
So, I know the Xtronic CVTs
are perfectapparently don’t “feel” good, and also break down after relatively low mileage.I also know the PowerShift transmissions were known to break readily. But did they also “feel” bad?
Early ones did feel quite terrible. Juddering was fairly common on low speed maneuvers like stop and go and inclines. I owned a 1st model year Fiesta with that transmission and I could smell the clutches a bit after coming out of a traffic jam. It didn’t like being launched, either. It felt like it couldn’t get a hold on 1st gear like when you launch a car with a stickshift but you didn’t release the clutch pedal all the way.
It felt quick and composed once you got to 2nd gear and beyond, though.
During that ownership I also rode on much newer cars with the Powershift and they felt much better, no more juddering. So I knew Ford did several hardware and sw changes to improve its behavior but at the end it’s still a dry clutch transmission so it will never behave the same as a finely tuned auto or a wet clutch DSG.
Vibe because a hatchback is always better.
So just checked my 09 Scion xB engine. 267 hp it says. So not certain where the Vibe hp output came from?
Same engine as the Vibe.
I would double check that- I dont think the scion XB ever had similar power to a mustang GT
Another end of year brain fart here.
Was thinking of the engine in my old Venza. Sorry.
Thanks.
In a way, Toyota did build that V6/Corolla combo…
It woulda been cool if it did, though!
The 2nd gen Vibe/Matrix does seem to blend in like an Anycar from an insurance ad. The most memorable thing about it seemed to be how it was received: like a phoned in update to the original. Toyota car shifters weren’t really all that nice to use then either.
But we’re not shopping new, and even if the er, presentation were reversed between them, the Pontiac is a little better equipped, and obviously more practical.
The Vibe’s condition is impressive but I gotta think anyone taking the time to seek out a decently equipped manual hatchback from a dead brand at the time was pretty intentional about what they buy and how they take care of it. Even in original Toyota form it wasn’t a go-to. If you were looking for a peppy hatch it was Mazda 3 all the way then.