Stellantis NV is probably the most global of global automakers in that its Voltron-ing of different automaker groups left it with a bunch of commitments to different governments. The Fiat part of Stellantis is somewhat beholden to Italy, while the PSA Group piece is still partially owned by the French government, and the ex-Chrysler bits remain connected to the US and Canadian government via incentives and labor agreements.
With Stellantis taking a controlling share of China’s Leapmotor, the company is now additionally required to appease the Chinese government. Step one? Reportedly, China’s leadership is going to use Stellantis to punish European countries that voted for tariffs against the country.
At the same time, the automaker is indefinitely laying off more UAW workers in Michigan just as it’s beginning to see a turnaround in Ram performance. Is this Morning Dump a little Stellantis heavy? It seems like it. I’m going to finish the morning with an update from China, where Toyota apparently sees new opportunities.
How Stellantis Might Let Itself Get Played By The Chinese Government
Chinese automakers desperately want to sell cars outside of China and, specifically, they want to sell cars in Europe. For various reasons, ranging from the protection of local industry to the discomfort with China’s excessive subsidies/questionable labor practices, the European Union went through with its threat to add massive tariffs to many Chinese automakers trying to sell in Europe.
This wasn’t a unanimous vote, with Germany and Hungary opposing the measure and many more countries simply abstaining. I’ve talked about this before, but Europe has an uneasy relationship with China that depends a lot on the import-export relationship between individual EU member states. Ultimately, it was populous France, Italy, and Poland whose support pushed the tariffs forward, and it’s those countries that are now at risk of reprisal from China.
Specifically, I mentioned at the end of last month that China’s Ministry of Commerce was not-so-quietly telling its large corporations which countries in Europe were friendly and which were not in terms of investment. The instructions seemed to boil down to: Don’t put any more money where the local government opposed us.
When it comes to Chinese companies like BYD or SAIC it’s neither surprising nor scandalous. Chinese companies need approval from the Chinese government to invest overseas and, of course, the Chinese government will continue to use its money for political aims. The use of Stellantis, however, is interesting.
Stellantis, via its Leapmotor brand, is already producing a small electric car called the T03 at the Stellantis plant in Poland. This is a big deal for Poland and a big deal for the brand. It’s long been assumed that the second Leapmotor vehicle, the B10, would also be built there.
Here’s Reuters, who broke the news, on why that’s no longer allegedly happening:
The joint venture is instead considering using a Stellantis factory in Eisenach, Germany that produces Opel models and its Trnava plant in Slovakia as alternative production sites for the B10 electric crossover, said one of the people.
[…]
The shift in production plans by the joint venture was made after the Chinese government privately told automakers to halt big investments in European countries that supported imposing extra tariffs on Chinese-made EVs, the two people said.
You’ll be shocked to learn that both Slovakia and Germany voted against the tariffs. Given how much capacity Stellantis has in Europe it’s probably not a huge deal for the company, although it has already invested in converting its Polish operations to support Leapmotor. Germany, also, tends to be a more expensive place to produce cars.
While Stellantis may not have much choice in this matter given that Leapmotor is a Chinese company, it’s a strange look if this does go through, as Stellantis is partially owned by the French state and the French state voted for the tariffs.
It’s even stranger given the company’s support for the tariffs initially, as reported by Germany’s Welt news:
Stellantis played a dubious role in the EU punitive tariffs. CEO Carlos Tavares had long urged French President Emmanuel Macron to push for measures against cheap Chinese imports in Brussels. Tavares is therefore considered one of the fathers of the idea of countering Chinese subsidies for electric car manufacturers with countervailing tariffs. But in the course of the proceedings, Tavares changed his mind – shortly before the EU vote, he even spoke out publicly against the tariffs. According to media reports, he even accepted Macron’s displeasure for this.
The reason for this was apparently that Stellantis had in the meantime allied itself with the manufacturer Leapmotor, which was only founded in 2015. The European group is therefore less interested in the EU making Chinese imports more expensive. In addition, the opinion of the Chinese leadership is becoming more important for Stellantis. Until now, German car manufacturers in particular have been dependent on the goodwill of the country, while Stellantis has had little interest there.
Crazy how Stellantis apparently suddenly shifted its position once it owned part of a Chinese automaker.
Stellantis Lays Off 400 Workers In Detroit
Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares, pictured above, has approximately a year to shake up the company and solve its many underlying issues. One of the company’s big moves over the last year has been to continue to reduce its workforce in the United States.
This will continue with the cutting of 400 jobs at a Detroit parts warehouse according to The Detroit News:
The indefinite layoffs will affect all United Auto Workers-represented employees at the Freud Street parts sequencing facility, which is near the company’s Detroit Assembly Complex-Jefferson plant. Stellantis said it’s transitioning operations to a third-party.
“As Stellantis navigates a transitional year, the focus is on realigning its U.S. operations to ensure a strong start to 2025,” said a statement on the layoffs sent by spokesperson Ann Marie Fortunate.
The company made huge profits during the pandemic but was slow to reinvest them in new products. Other than a new Dodge Charger it’s not clear what the future product mix will be for Dodge, Ram, Jeep, and Chrysler that’ll help the company return to the performance it achieved at the beginning of the decade.
Ram Is Doing Ever-So-Slightly Better
I
t’s not all doom and gloom at Stellantis, as the automaker has started to see a bit of a turnaround at Ram under the leadership of new CEO Christine Feuell. While it’s extremely premature to declare anything close to victory, increased incentives are stemming sales losses and newer products are coming.
“Coming off of a fantastic October, we’re looking forward for that momentum to continue in November and December and close the year really strong for Ram,” Feuell told Automotive News. “I’m excited about finally having the full lineup of light-duty products finally in the market, and getting ready to launch the Ram REV, Ramcharger and the heavy-duty [freshening] next year. … We’re transforming the entire Ram lineup in a two-year period of time.”
Ram is trying to rebound from a slow start to 2024 after ramping up production of the freshened 1500 took longer than expected. The launch of the 2025 model was stymied by production hiccups at Sterling Heights Assembly Plant in Michigan, where quality issues drew the consternation of Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares, who said too many vehicles needed fixing after assembly.
I’m quite excited about the Ram Ramcharger, as it’s a vehicle that doesn’t have any obvious competition until Scout’s EREV models come online in a few years. The loss of the Ram Classic does mean that Ram loses a vehicle that’s price-competitive with midsize trucks and I’m curious to see how Ram responds to that challenge.
Toyota Sees An Opportunity In China
Toyota, like most high volume foreign automakers, has seen its prospects in China narrow as domestic automakers continue to offer increasingly competitive products. Still, the company makes more than 1.7 million cars annually in the country and it doesn’t seem to have given up on China yet, even as other Japanese and European countries move in the other direction.
According to a report in Reuters, Toyota wants to hand more control to local executives and plans to get production around three million vehicles a year by 2030, which is extremely ambitious. Too ambitious, maybe? I have a lot of questions about this plan and I’m not alone.
From that report:
The moves signal a growing awareness within Toyota that it needs to rely more on local staff to take charge and speed up product development in China, one of the people said, adding that otherwise “it will be too late”.
Legacy automakers, Toyota included, have been outmaneuvered in China as domestic EV makers rapidly roll out affordable, battery-powered cars with advanced technology.
Last year Toyota announced plans to deepen cooperation among its R&D centre in Jiangsu province and its two local joint ventures.
One problem, representative of Toyota’s broader woes, is that vehicles developed independently by joint venture partners are selling better than those produced with Toyota.
It’s not clear to me how Toyota turns this around, though I’m going to be watching it closely.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
Hell yeah, 30 minutes of John Phillips Sousa marches. Happy Veterans Day.
The Big Question
Can Ram turn it around? What does the automaker need to do?
1) Is the new ram out yet? I live in rural new england, where almost every family has at least 1 truck, plenty of older Rams, but I have not seen a single new ram. I look at almost every car that passes me and I pay attention to this stuff.
2) New Toyota sucks ass. It still trying to push in China is just another example it’s continued mental challenges. People will argue Toyota doesn’t suck ass, but I promise you within 2 years they will have to majorly change course with all their new product that is no longer reliable as they chance short term metrics. Same as when people argued with me Stallanis and Jeep didn’t suck ass a year ago.
we are usually behind the “trends” by 6months to a year, so I should start seeing them by spring!
Note that China and Poland are not to scale. Nor is that Leapmotor L8 either.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2022-LI-AUTO-L8-New-Energy_1600649621069.html
Gee, only $21,550 in on Ali Baba
Why does Stellantis need workers? They don’t actually offer many cars for sale… and ones they do sell were built whenever they were building cars for the 2023 model year.
I’m afraid China will be very tactical in their response once the new tariffs are in place in Europe and the US. I expect the premium car segment to get hit, hard. Nobody in China NEEDS a V8 Mustang or high-end BMW only made in Germany. The cars produced in China, by US and German manufacturers will probably escape unscathed because they’re produced by the joint-ventures and in the factory there are a lot of Chinese workers. This will hurt the US/Euro car manufacturers because the margins are on the premium cars, the BMW 7s and the Mercedes S-classes and the whatever high-end US cars which are still actually sold in China. Cadillac perhaps? And those Corvettes and Mustangs and what not, even though in general Chinese like more European cars. There is no shortage of McLarens, Porsches, Astons and Ferraris on the road. Those will become even more expensive.
Who will pay the bill? The already rich Chinese. The government there wouldn’t care one single bit about it ; it basically is an extra tax for the rich who already have enough money for the next 20 generations (often).
But it does erode the profit margins for US and European companies to a point where R&D starts to become expensive. Think on EVs. Battery tech. Self driving things. While more and more consumers in China are spending more on more expensive domestic made vehicles. An extra is the Xiaomi SU7 Ultra. The regular performance model was already “serious money” for Chinese but this new model costs $115k USD. That is a lot of money, a lot of margin, that isn’t going towards a Porsche Taycan or a premium Tesla. Suddenly the money stays in China. And the extra margin will allow the company to spend on more R&D.
Now extrapolate this approach to multiple sectors, where premium goods from the US are going to have high tariffs. The regular Chinese people aren’t going to suffer from that, they aren’t buying a lot of imported stuff. The rich will scratch behind their ears when a domestic popular product has the same or better performance than an imported car. Don’t underestimate the nationalism as well, Made in the US is already being countered by Made in China.
If/when Europe also retaliates with tariffs on goods which the US actually likes to import from Europe (from cars to I don’t know what) then the US cannot really quickly find another seller. You cannot reinvent a ‘maker’ economy in a couple of years. Some stuff is too niche, some stuff has too low margin to try to produce for yourself in a high-wage economy ; it just doesn’t make sense UNLESS the US buyer is willing to pay 20, 50, 100% more for the same what he was able to buy from Europe (or China) some years ago.
In the end I think it is the American buyer who is going to pay for most of the added costs. And I think it’s the government which then will use that money to lower taxes (for the rich first) and maybe use it to well.. uhh .. find ways to spend it somewhere else. Like it has been doing for 50+ years. The infrastructure is a mess and for some reason every new white house resident hasn’t been able to do much about it. Or isn’t willing.
There is zero reason to believe that IF Chinese companies would come to the US to build products locally, with local sourced materials and local workers that this would make those products as cheap and affordable as when they’d come from China. The Chinese (US) factory would just want to keep a healthy margin as before. But all the base costs would be much higher.
If I was China I’d make life for Americans as expensive as I could.
One way they’re already doing that is by saturating the seas with a lot of ‘second rate’ navy ships which HAVE to be countered by more and more (expensive) US ships.
And that’s how the US won the cold war, by forcing the Russians to spend more and more of their GDP on their army and navies. Are the Chinese doing the same in reverse?
Ram could turn it around by being re-absorbed into Dodge, and then Dodge can turn it around by taking over the Jeep Compass/Renegades as the Journey and Duster(I know that was Plymouth but Dodge Duster has nice alliteration), Jeep should focus on upscale/off road, Dodge needs some nice cheapy cheaps to compete with the Trax and Equinox.
That Leapmotor B10 actually looks great… Imagine the Hornet was based on that instead of the Tonale?
“The indefinite layoffs will affect all United Auto Workers-represented employees at the Freud Street parts sequencing facility…”
Ah. Apparently someone’s mother is responsible for this mess.
Ram needs to think outside the box. Utilize their synergistic paradigm-shifting brand awareness, uniquely recaptiualize end-to-end processes, and appropriate the necessary resources to pull out all the holistic stops thus allowing the constructive efforts of completing a better Turbo-Encabulator.
Let’s take this conversation off-line.
Good call – that would be a straightforward opportunity to circle-back on the optics.
But only if it has been parking lotted.
“We’re one big family at RAM”.
Yes, this really requires a deep dive into core competencies so we can get our ducks in a row to avoid a worsening dumpster fire and focus on deliverables to move the needle.
Someone get this person a corner office and a proper Golden Parachute package!
Feel free to RIF me a week after my promotion. I don’t like offices, but I’ll take the parachute!
I just love this country, where rich people are rewarded for fucking up.
Bingo!!! My corporate bullshit bingo card is full!
I’m going to need a 10,000 foot view here. Let’s blue sky it.
This is a good reminder that there is no such thing as a private company in China at least in the way we think of it. Getting in bed with a Chinese company is equivalent to working to advance the governments goals
And damn near every company did it, knowing what the outcome would be, because profits are more important than long-term thinking.
Troll, take your antisemitic US political conspiracy theories somewhere else.
We’re here to enjoy the cars. Not talk politics. There are other sites for that.
Thank you for the clarification. Next time, can you please include that context into your comments?
I can’t read minds. Including that into the original comment would have made it more relevant to the topic and not come off as a random antisemitic comment.
I’m not chilling out for an antisemitic comment. Which yours sure looked like at first/second/third read.
Except that your original comment regarding an individual had very little to no context that was obviously relevant to the discussion about a nation, is not common knowledge or common sense, and in light of current events and the subject being a common target of conspiracy theories of all kinds, is far more easily recognizable to just about anybody as something other than you reportedly intended. An important part of communication is getting your point across so that other people understand, which takes into account the topic of conversation, the provided information, and the crowd.
Haha the company I work for which is owned by a bigger auto manufacturer we have had a lot of stuff in meetings recently about “breaking into the Chinese market” sure that is going to end well /s
“Can Ram turn it around?”
Yes
“What does the automaker need to do?”
Bring their MSRPs back to reality and completely give up on the dream that pandemic shortage pricing will last forever. And with recent price cuts, it seems they are finally coming to grips with reality.
So Stellantis had a person whose last name is Fortunate announce a bunch of layoffs. That seems very on point for Stellantis.
Ann Fortunate no less!
Pun intended!
I wish Jeep, at least, could be bought by a U.S. company and returned to the hands of American decision makers. It’s downright unpatriotic to have foreigners controlling the fate of Jeep. OK, that’s my flag waving done for the day.
Jeep has been owned by foreign companies darn near half its existence. It makes little difference who owns it as it always leads to failure somehow.
Give it to AM General and then the rest of Chrysler/Stellantis can just disappear.
I highly doubt Ram’ll turn around, considering how that junk Hemi has been the darling of Chrysler since 2003, losing it in the half tons will be a massive hit.
It’ll likely still outsell the Tundra, but the days of 400,000+ units sold are over. Hell, it’ll likely be under 250,000 for the rest of its life. Unless the Ramcharger becomes a hit.
Does Stellantis want to turn Ram around? Tavares seems to actively dislike the entire North American operation.
Can you blame him? Their best stuff is an also ran, and everything else ranges from embarrassing to downright reprehensible.
And whose fault is that?
Idk, whoever preceded Iacocca?
So, Ram puts a bunch of money on the hood and that’s the early stages of a turnaround? Good luck, Stellantis.
well, throwing a bunch of money on the hood was regular practice back in the FCA and Daimler days, so I’d say they’re just getting back to their roots.
It isn’t uncommon over at the Ford and GM lots either. So much that some consumers expect there to be massive rebates on pickup trucks or else they “aren’t getting a good deal”.
It is just like when JCPenney tried to just lower prices instead of playing the constant sale/coupon game. People would rather see a $50 sweater with a $10 off coupon than a $40 regular price sweater.
Not that Stellantis is lowering MSRPs, but the “on sale” idea still applies. Especially with car sales, people love to feel like they “got one” vs. the car dealers.
Reminds me one of my favorite Onion articles:
https://theonion.com/activision-reports-sluggish-sales-for-sousaphone-hero-1819569239/
I guess Stellantis will see how much the HEMI mattered to Ram buyers. I feel like a lot of Ram’s enthusiastic buyers were there for HEMIs and Cummins. Now that there is no V8 option on the 1500, guess we’ll see how that goes. Ford at least still offers a V8, even if most F-150s are Ecoboosts. Chevy/GMC will give you a V8.
“How The Chinese Government Is Reportedly Using Stellantis To Punish Europe”
How is China forcing everyone to own a Stellantis product?
If they really want to punish Europe they could just send them more Stellantis vehicles.
Can Ram turn it around? What does the automaker need to do?
Well I predict an uptick in DUI’s over the next 4 years, so I see Ram doing just fine, but if they really want to get a markable uptick in sales, have Cummins develop a smaller (3.0L) I6 diesel to drop into the 1500. Also they need to take the Gladiator and make a new Ram mid-sizer, and develop a Power Wagon that can have the big Cummins and a winch bumper. And finally, fold it back into Dodge ffs.
And what does it have to do with Ram?
RAM owners have the highest DUI’s per 1000
But how do DUIs help RAM sales?
In my experience, DUIs help used moped sales.
The people who will be getting the dui’s will be getting the new rams financed for 94 months pre dui
sat·ire
/ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
noun
Buy ram, drink, crash ram, repeat
Unless the EPA is abolished, & the French/Italians realize that the US is where they’ll make majority of their profits & put most of their focus to, then you’ll have a lesser than 0% chance of anything actually happening. Even if those two things happen, you’ll looking at a pretty great 0% chance of anything happening still.
If that happens, individual states will return to having their own standards. There’s a reason why California and NY decided to harmonize their standards. It was because the air in LA and NYC was horrible. Mainly from vehicle emissions. Go figure, what worked to clean the air in LA also worked to clean the air in NYC because air acts the same in dense urban areas at sea level.
Not if they are banned from having local standards. That’s part of the plan to “Own The Libs”.
NY will just continue a set standard of regulations but vary enforcement and nit-picking details. There’s quite a few things people who live in NYC have to do that the rest of the state doesn’t, which is like the one good thing NYS does. Like smog testing. IIRC, NYC requires bigger diesels to be tested at the tailpipe every year, but the rest of the state just has the OBD2 scan.
Upsize the Gladiator and make it into the Power Wagon? Then only sell that baby like a McRib, 2 years, then quiet for 3, then another 2 years with only a moderate refresh.
I know that CDJR dealerships already have too many big SUVs on their lots (especially Wagoneers), but I’m stunned that there still isn’t a four-door Ram SUV to go up against the Suburban/Tahoe/Expedition. It seems like it would be relatively inexpensive to engineer, and would give the GM/Ford SUVs some real competition, because the extended GC/Wagoneer isn’t it.
Apart from a grille and badging, that’s exactly what the Wagoneer and GW are, though.
Then maybe the solution is as easy as “Ram truck, only SUV.” Because disguising them as Jeeps is not working, as TMD has repeatedly pointed out.
Editing to add h/t to M. V10omous for reminding me that the Wagoneer is based on the current Ram platform.
They need a new Durango, Jeep can keep their expensive SUVs.
So much this. Slap a Ram badge and grille on it.
“So much this. Slap a
RamDODGE badge and grille on it.”There… fixed it. All the Ram trucks should be put back under Dodge and ‘Ram’ should go back to being a model name.
No disagreement, it is Dodge Ram.
I hear you, it was an uphill battle when I owned a 2014 Ram 1500 for almost 5 years. Of course I didn’t win that battle so I joined the winning team early on and when I put it for sale I just named it Dodge Ram 1500. Win
I had a 09 Ram 1500 when it was still Dodge and I have 2018 now. Me and everybody else still call it a Dodge. I think it was a dumb move.
Not a dumb move, but playing the long game. Because you know that Carlos is going to call up Auburn Hills and tell them to cut a brand. After much deliberation, Ram is cut, all vehicles are returned to their regularly scheduled program and they get to be technically correct (which is the best kid of correct).
LOL. Well that sounds about right but I hope it doesn’t happen like that. Ram makes them a lot of money.
Wonder how much it would cost to just make a Ram version that mostly lives where the Wagoneer sits in the price range, and then leave the Grand Wagoneer to the high end.
Kind of like Chevy and GMC, although these days the Tahoe High Country is nearly as expensive as the Yukon Denali.
Yeah I think this would be a good idea, or possibly even replace both.
Ram has proven able to command $100K for their trucks, I think the evidence by now that Jeep can command that kind of money is pretty slim.
Yes, it seems Stellantis way over estimated the brand equity in “Grand Wagoneer”. Think it was probably a decade too late. People who remember wood paneled Grand Wagoneers as the favorite of “old money” types probably aren’t in the market for a giant family hauler anymore.
“Wonder how much it would cost to just make a Ram version that mostly lives where the Wagoneer sits in the price range, and then leave the Grand Wagoneer to the high end.”
While they’re at it, they should look at how much it would cost to just put Ram back under DODGE and call it the Dodge Ramcharger.
Because ‘Ramcharger’ was traditionally Dodge’s large SUV.
That thing got a Hemi?
Shot:
Chaser:
Who took a controlling interest in whom, I wonder?
The Chinese government and their associated corporate fronts need to be countered at every step and with maximum effect.
Yeah, this makes no sense. If Stellantis has a “controlling share” but is required to bow to the whims of the CCP, is it really a controlling share?
Hopefully this retaliation makes the EU realize China is playing for keeps, and it’s time for the gloves to come off. If they could coordinate their tariffs with American tariffs, that would put a very significant dent in China’s export market.
Eventually, but at first those tariffs are going to be extremely inflationary – an absolute killer for retailers and manufacturers.
Inflation is every fixed rate mortgagee’s best friend.
As for the others, they got exactly what they asked for.
Yeah, at this point I am just waiting to see how long it takes for the millions of people who voted because they were mad about high prices to realize that they voted for much higher prices.
We’ll see!
Yeah. China always cuts better deals when the OFT,
(orange faced turd) is in charge.
And when the other side is in charge, we get screwed. /s
That’s why all the shit Cheeto Man is constantly trying to sell to his minions appears to be made in China, right?
Cause supporting the Chinese is more important than supporting USA manufacturing, and workers.
But if Carlos really wants to make some bucks?
Easy answer here.
RAM 47 edition.
Cheeto Orange paint.
Giant MAGA stickers everywhere.
Lockable hard tonneau covers to hold all the “enemies within.”
At least he knows how to open the door of a truck, right?
LOL.
/S
For certain categories of goods, yes. But frankly the flood of cheap crap on Temu and Amazon has gotten so terrible I can’t but see that as a good thing. The ‘rona accelerated supply chain movement out of China, and there are few categories of goods and commodities where they are the sole source, and non in which they are irreplaceable. A lot of the electronics industry has already, or is currently ‘friendshoring’ to places like Vietnam, Mexico, and India.
Friendshoring is nice (I am no fan of the CCP!) but Trump promised tariffs on everything from everywhere.
Temu could be solved by a minor update to the treatment of “de minimis” packages. Temu is basically a loophole.
Oh god please do not amend de minimis. So much of my RC helicopter stuff comes straight from overseas. They are too niche to even have a domestic distributor. With some judicious shopping I can always keep the tab below $700.
Tariff is nothing but another tax. If the merchandise is too niche even to have a rep here, would anyone think it would “bring manufacturing home?”
Of course Fedex/UPS will gladly tag their service charge on import duties processing too.
Just don’t be like EU. They charge VAT on everything.
Some kind of distinction could be made between “real” de minimis and Temu.
I’m also into RC stuff. Agreed, a lot of that stuff is super niche. Like, a cooling jacket for a 3660 brushless motor for boat use. That’s an incredibly specific niche for a not very high tech product. It may not be worth bringing that tooling into a different country.
47 is more likely to start another trade war with EU than to coordinate with them.
“The orange man on the TV said I’ll have more money if we start bullying other countries for no reason.”
Yeah. That worked out great the first time around.
Now go away please. I am busy trying to figure out how to spend all that money we made from the first time we saw this movie…
That approach appears to be working out real well for the Russians.
Maybe it’s a “Merger of Equals”. We know how that worked out.
If China really wanted to punish Europe, they should just have Stellantis increase production of it’s current lineup
Introducing the Dodge Hornet for Europe!
They should replace all the hardware with SAE for maximum “imported from Detriot” effect.