Is a 2011 Nissan Leaf a better car for the planet than a 2011 Toyota Land Cruiser? Are you kidding? A small EV versus a fuel sucking big truck, right? The answer might not be as simple as it seems.
I constantly get customers at my manufacturing business asking “what’s your sustainability plan?”, and I know what they want to hear. Buzzwords like “recycled steel” and “plastic made from old water bottles” makes them happy, and while almost all of use these materials the bigger issue for sustainability seems to be how to get more years out of the products we sell; “reduce” and “reuse” is just as important as “recycle”.
Not only is that a potentially better way to help the planet, but it’s also great if you want to save pennies. This lifespan issue has been brought to the forefront recently by our own founder David Tracy and his seemingly saleproof old EV.
Imagine A Two Gallon Gas Tank
David purchased his 2011 Leaf a few years back with a highly depleted battery; despite only 60,000 miles on the clock, the range was down to something like 30 miles or less on a full charge. With a dented front fender, Mr. Tracy was able to pick this thing up for $2000 and it’s served him as rather reliable air-conditioned short-distance transportation since that time. Now he’s looking to sell it, and it appears he’d have an easier time selling two-week-old bottles of milk.
I have not seen this thing in person, but from the photos and description, it seems like a very clean and usable car. If this were an ICE-powered Nissan of similar vintage it would have a decade or more of life left in it and sell within hours for a decent chunk of change.
Manufacturers are constantly talking about the difficulty of recycling EV batteries in an environmentally sound way. What car companies talk about less is the financial pain the owner of an EV experiences when their battery becomes useful only in preventing the car from not blowing away. That’s a big issue that something like a 2011 Land Cruiser will never have: the big Toyota SUV will likely still be running when the new 2023 Leaf you’d have had to buy to replace your 2011 model goes the same way as the previous car. David isn’t sure how this will play out with his Leaf, but I’d hate to see his Leaf end up at Copart in the “depleted battery EVs” section.
Seriously, what do you do when your EV battery finally has a range of about 25 miles like David’s and your formerly $40,000 car is now worth nothing? What will the salvage yards do when they are full of shiny ten- or fifteen-year-old EVs where battery replacement dwarfs the value of the car? We’ve seen a YouTuber blow up his old Tesla and get a lot of hits, but that doesn’t work for most of us.
These Leafs are still clean, functioning automobiles that could serve an owner well into their sunset years. One thing that David said in his post was interesting:
“If I owned a resort I’d buy every dang one of these Leafs for $2000, paint each a fun color, remove the doors, and save bundles on transportation costs.”
That sounds like an interesting idea, albeit a crazy one, but after running it past the primary voice of reason here (Matt) it sounds as if it could be one worth exploring. It’s not like car recycling (or upcycling) hasn’t been done before, and right there in LA.
Just Thought That I Had To Be In Compton Soon
Compton, California is not far from where David is now, and Mr. Tracy likely has no knowledge of the pioneering gangsta hip hop from that LA neighborhood. He does, however, know about a bizarre and brilliant automotive recycling project that one company did right after World War II in that town.
During the postwar boom when everyone wanted a car and you could sell nearly anything, Powell Motors decided to offer an affordable car-based truck that was, in some ways, a very early crossover.
The mechanical parts of this truck were taken from 1941 Plymouth cars literally dragged from a junkyard to Powell’s Compton shop. This was California, so the rust-free parts were easily able to be repurposed. Cleaned up and installed under new bodies, the old Plymouth mechanicals took on a second life as a new, highly affordable vehicle.
Production stopped around 1956 for the simple reason that the supply of useable 1941 Plymouths had simply dried up.
Ah, but you know what is likely never going to dry up? The supply of end-of-life EVs that are looking at $6,000 to $12,000+ battery replacements. Do you know what else we are not in short supply of? Aging boomers moving into gated communities and giant retirement centers. What do the seniors in those locations roll in now?
Please Don’t Call It A Golf Cart
David mentioned in his post that even golf carts cost significantly more than even an old Leaf with similar or better range. Here’s a typical one (below); a four-seater with two passengers sitting where the golf clubs usually go. The range is quoted as being around 20 miles, and the top speed is only around 19 miles an hour.
There’s another type of machine specifically for retirement and vacation communities called LSVs, which stands for low-speed vehicles. One of the big players in this market is Global Electric Manufacturers, which offers a full range of LSVs from two-seaters all the way up to pickup-truck style versions for more industrial use.
On their website, GEM is insistent that you don’t call their vehicles “golf carts”:
It’s not a golf cart. And it’s not a highway vehicle. It’s an electric vehicle (EV) engineered for local streets. Unlike golf carts, GEM electric cars are street-legal on most roads at 35 mph (50 kmh) or less and travel at a maximum speed of 25 mph (40 kmh). Additionally, GEMs are engineered to exceed low-speed vehicle (LSV) federal safety standards.
Indeed, as an LSV the GEM features things like a backup camera, brake lights, and a horn, but it’s a lot closer to a golf cart than a “real” car like a Leaf. Their most popular model is supposedly the four-seat e4, which would be a four-door if it had doors.
As you can see above, the website says that the e4 “starts at around $17,490”, which means that with the doors and alloy wheels shown in the picture below it will be more than that.
True to David’s point, that’s a lot of money. Is David on to something with his repurposing scheme?
“SS” Stands For “Shower Spaghetti”
Maybe David would decide to start a new venture to make some money, since not all of you are Autopian Members yet and he has to do something to pay the staff and give you this compelling content. David’s firm, NewLeaf Motors, would have a database scouring classifieds across the Southwest and West Coast looking for desperate sellers of Nissan Leafs with batteries approaching paperweight status but still with some useable life left. Once received at NewLeaf Motors, David’s team would set to the task of converting each of these old EVs into a Leafster, or Leafster SS.
First, technicians inspect the old Leaf for proper operation and what kind of range it really has. Next, the doors and hatchback are removed and replaced with fiberglass trim surrounds and a cargo net in back. Add-on half doors might be an option, or you could leave the doors on (GEM offers doors as an option on their LSVs for like $4,000-5,000 extra).
Removing all that door weight makes the car sit a little higher, so it’s easier to get in and out of, further helped by the addition of larger white steelies. A push bar and a roof rack might be part of the “SS” package, offering extra space on top to carry things like giant inflatable toys to the pool for the grandkids.
The overall look is a beach buggy-type thing like a Fiat Jolly or even the modified Volare wagons on the TV show Fantasy Island.
The interior could be retrofitted with weatherproof covers and floor mats, which would also cover up the ten years worth of Taco Bell stains on the Leaf’s seat upholstery.
Depending on how depleted the battery is in the old EV, a Leafster’s range would likely be 25-30 miles. That doesn’t sound like much, but it’s enough for most people’s daily drives in the real world. My 60,000 mile plug-in hybrid can barely go 23 miles on battery power alone, but that will get me to the office and back without charging at work. Ah, but we aren’t talking about the Leafster being used in “the real world”; it’s for enclosed retirement communities. With a retirement center, you’d practically need to drive around all day to get that many miles. Besides, there will likely be lots of charging stations, and the weather is usually warm and conducive to good range.
Now, you might be thinking, “Ah, but GEMs offer more range.” Yes, but the big word there is offer. Take a peek at the chart below on their website for the e4 (you can click to expand it):
Look at the far-left column: the “base” $17,490 model has a range that isn’t any better than an old Leaf! If we compare a base battery GEM with the optional doors and alloy wheels shown (adding around five grand) to a 2011 Leaf with the same range, that means you could get around eleven or so old Leafs for identical cash:
That “up to 106 miles of range” stated on the GEM site is only with the top optional battery pack that adds a whopping $11,000 to the cost of this funny-looking $17,000 vehicle. Throw on that higher capacity battery and, with options, we’re talking about something pushing $30,000, or the price of a fleet of 15 old Nissan Leafs for what GEM swears is not a glorified golf cart, but it kinda sorta is.
A Leafster won’t be $30,000, that’s for sure. If New Leaf Industries can pick these old Leafs up for under $2000 each and keep the customization costs low, you could get something that does essentially everything a base model GEM does (and more) for literally a fraction of the cost of the add- on GEM battery pack alone.
Yes, I Already Know This Will Never Work
The comments section below is ready and waiting for you to tell us why an idea like this isn’t viable, and I’m sure I’ll agree with most of you naysayers. Here’s a problem I’m sure you’ll bring up: what do you do when the battery in your Leafster degrades to the point the car has a range of about 100 feet? Well, good news, NewLeaf Motors can fix that problem for around $2000 to $3000. Just take the fiberglass bits, seat covers, wheels, and other Leafster-specific items off of the 100-footer and simply stick them onto another $2000 Nissan Leaf. The old Leaf goes to the salvage yard, which does not solve the battery recycling issue but does kick it farther down the road. We’ll figure it out later, OK?
Is it really just me or is there something very wrong with that? To paraphrase Jeff Goldblum’s Jurassic Park character once again, we spent all this time trying to figure out how to make EVs but not what to do when they no longer work like we want them to. Or, to paraphrase Jake Blues, “This don’t look like no sustainability plan to me!”
Trying To Sell My Electric Car With A Bad Battery Is Borderline Impossible – The Autopian
2013+ Leafs had V2G hardware as well so they could be ultra cheap mobile battery backups.
I can’t get past the use of “Leafs” as the plural of leaf.
The depleted batteries will be upcycled by NewLeaf Power Company, which will re-package the batteries in a portable power cell for off-grid users. A non-profit arm of NLPC will provide low-cost or no-cost power cells to unhoused people living in off-grid communities. A depleted Leaf battery may be no good for moving a 2,000lb car, but can still hold enough juice to power lights, fans and recharging personal devices. The web is full of videos of people doing this with junked Leaf batteries.
Why doesn’t DT turn the Leaf turn into a technical deep drive article on how to repair or places the battery pack? If we are going to keep wrenching, seems we all need to learn how to drop a battery, disassemble, test and replace cells, etc. All without zapping ourselves to death.
Maybe get some experts to help?
“All without zapping ourselves to death.”
“Maybe get some legal experts to help?”
FIFY. Liability is a bitch.
It’s a Leaf, so compost it.
nyuk nyuk nyuk
It appears you have neglected something,Mr. Bishop. *IF* (and it’s a big if) you can hack into the software of the Leaf and speed limit it to 40 km/h, the 25-mile range Jason is getting might easily double. An LSV with a 50 mile range seems like a lot.I suppose you’d have to re-certify it, but that also allows you to leave the doors off!
Great idea… Las Brisas resort did this with the Willys DJ-3 Surrey back in the day:
http://www.ewillys.com/2015/04/04/1970-article-about-the-las-brisas-hotel/
https://www.ewillys.com/tag/surrey/page/3/
The URL took me aback for a second as, while phonetically identical, Googling “e willies” brings us quite a different set of results.
Love the idea, but I’d integrate the stanchion ropes into the design. You know, for safety.
I’d like to call attention to the The Bishop very deliberately gave the New!Leaf a smile to go with its bull bars. Well done!
was going to put an LED strip in there too for night driving.
I love this idea. Looks like it might be time for me to invest in Leaf futures.
“ New Leaf Industries”
Does that trigger Walter Matthau saying “carbon on the valves” in anybody else’s head?
Yes. And there always is.
“We’ll figure it out later, OK?”
We’ve been told that about spent nuclear fuel rods since the 80s. Like really, right around the corner, coming soon, since the 80s.
meh, spent nuclear fuel rods isn’t as huge a problem as it’s made out to be. Storage techniques are well-established (stick it in a concrete cask in a swimming pool) and in a geologically stable area that’s…pretty much good enough. The actual mass of waste is extraordinarily low for the energy we get out.
The Soviets just chucked those (and much, much more) into the ocean. 70 years and going no problems yet.
Nuclear waste is only a problem when you listen to people who make their money on it being a problem.
“Comrade Mom – I caught a fish with three heads, and it’s already cooked!”
“Lets hurry up and eat it before it gets cold”
Some of the value of the glorified golf carts is that they are not cars. Driving a car on a sidewalk is frowned upon. Or so I’ve been told.
I once had my driveway blocked by a neighbor, so I backed my Mini up and down the sidewalk and onto the road- right in front of a cop. He really wanted to ticket me but then the neighbor came out and started yelling at the cop, I got to go
I once got busted for driving on a wide sidewalk to take a picture in front of a mural. I would do it again though, because the photo is brilliant.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/5yZBfhZCHrSAWE2CA
Outstanding mural, great car, and nice pic!
Considering a bunch of my classmates got ticketed for riding their bikes on the sidewalk in high school, something tells me a golf cart on the sidewalk is an even bigger no-no…
My wife’s grandmother once passed a broken down semi truck on the sidewalk. In her Olds. The cop only gave her a warning, as I recall.
Where was that? In California bikes are allowed to use sidewalks unless otherwise specifically prohibited by the local government.
San Jose, CA. I don’t think any of them got ticketed and fined outright, but they were made to do a weekend of community service. I’m not sure what they got cited for and whether it was a state or local law.
One nice thing about bicycles: Using sidewalks are an option in most places, at least in California.
I disagree. To me, this is your best suggestion yet. It may actually work.
How much is a new battery in the Leaf????
Online forums said that a dealer quoted well over $10,000; I would guess aftermarket or independent mechanic might be half that (maybe?) but I would guess around $6000? At least two to four times the value of the car, that’s for sure.
But, then the car gets another 10 years of life, right??? How is this a bad thing? Would the cost not suddenly increase to cover the cost?
I don’t get this. Where is the freaking aftermarket on the battery replacement thing!!!???!?!?
Greentech Auto advertises $3,999 for a 24kWh battery (standard size for a 1G Leaf); I think that includes installation. I have read in a few places that Nissan will replace the battery for $5,500, although that doesn’t include installation costs.
As much as everyone claims EV batteries can’t be replaced, I’m not sure that is actually true. The problem is that a 1G Leaf with a decent (75%+) battery only sells for $4 to $5k. Greentech is a solid deal if you already own a Leaf with a bad battery or can get one for free; otherwise, it doesn’t make financial sense.
Interesting info. They want $15,000 for a battery + install that gets a Leaf to 200-240 miles range. Not gonna sell many of those when you compare to buying a used Tesla 3 at $15,000 (supposedly verified at 240 miles remaining range) AND get a $4000 federal tax credit.
That is why EV battery replacement is possible rather than common. It makes zero sense in most situations.
Realistically, the problem is that technology has evolved so rapidly that a 10-year-old EV is functionally obsolete. A 10-year-old EV in 2024 is analogous to a 10-year-old computer in 1994. The difference in function was so big that they basically were not the same product. Today, a 10-year-old laptop functions almost identically to a new one; if something cheap broke on my 2015 Macbook, I would fix it rather than throwing it away, unlike an ’80s computer in 1994. When a 10-year-old EV functions similar to a new EV, it will make sense to repair them.
At the moment, the best use for an old Leaf is converting them to a use like Bishop’s Leafster.
And, why don’t we have subsidies to replace batteries??
I’d argue that the leaf platform would be perfectly suitable for one or two generations of batteries in the future.
Right now it makes no sense, but with solid state batteries? Or cheap-as-dirt sodium batteries?
It may very well be possible to get into 200 mile range for peanuts one day.
…A lack of liquid cooling may get in the way of these ideas, but who knows!
It is an interesting thought that future tech might make battery replacement economically viable. The 1G Leaf is a decent car, aside from the short range. If it is possible cheap batteries might be available in the near-ish future, maybe there is an argument for mothballing 1G Leafs (and other older generation EVs) instead of disposing of them? I suspect cheap replacement batteries aren’t coming any time soon, but maybe?
I’m not seeing anyone claiming EV batteries can’t be replaced, just that’s it’s prohibitively expensive to do so (for now anyway).
That said, as more old Leafs and Teslas are wrecked or have dead batteries, there will be a whole lot more used battery supply that will continue to bring the prices lower. There’s a local shop in my area that will replace your dead Leaf battery with a used one with at least 80% remaining capacity for $3000. They can do Teslas and Gen 2 Leafs as well, but prices are according higher due to higher capacities and lower supply.
This is a market where people will buy a $10 golf cart, and then another $10 to lift it, add knobby wheels, chrome, and a lightbar.
It’ll never work.
Besides, these are the kinds of people will be very resentful that their Leafster no longer is “allowed” to drive on the footpaths whilst on their fourth Vodka-based mixed drink (ahem, malt-based beverage) chilling in their latest-edition-colour-Stanley cup.
This is the big drawback, a lot of parking is “golf cart only” in these places.
Did you miss the “k” in your numbers? Cause I’d buy any one of these “golf carts” for $10.
Yes, thanks, like finance releases: numbers in ‘000s.
A poor range Leaf would suit a lot of East Coast beach communities as well. Plus it would be enclosed and have AC for less than the golf cart a lot of these vacation homes have.
That’s the real ticket. Sweet AC between the beach and the house. Or shelter from rain. Given how swampy it is where most of these communities are, the HVAC system in the leaf is the true advantage.
Sitting here in coastal Alabama thinking just that
A 10K golf cart, lol, that’s 100% what it is, is an absolute crime.
Hoping for a nod to Fantasy Island, I clicked. I am now satisfied. Thank you.
Clearly, the answer is once the old Leaf battery is really degraded, you simply drive it into the ocean to recharge the electric eels.
The ocean can have some car batteries as a treat.
Everybody worried about competition from Chinese cars, but I’m thinking Chinese golf carts and low speed NEVs would be a lot easier, with less regulatory hassle, and with a lot more low hanging fruit to go after. Seems like the current players in the market are bloated and complacent, ripe for someone to come in and undercut by 50% or more and disrupt the whole industry. Worry about actual cars later
They are here, lot’s of them. Places like Lowe’s sell them, and destination towns near beaches have dealerships (Charleston, SC for one).
I genuinely like this idea. If I ever come across a Leaf for $1,000 that has 25+ miles of range, I would consider buying it to do something like this. Mine would be janky – I would mostly just remove the doors and rear hatch – but I think that could make a fun beach cruiser (I’m one mile of the beach so 25 miles of range is plenty).
Unfortunately, it seems most sellers of 1G Leafs are either delusional about what they are worth or are charging artificially high prices due to tax rebates I can’t get. I haven’t seen one for sale locally for less than $4,000, even with a bad battery. I would spend $1,000 to build a doorless Leaf, but not $4,000.
They might be asking $4000, but what are they really selling for?
From what I’ve seen, they are not selling at all. Most of the cheap Leafs I see have been advertised for months, usually at low-end used car dealers. I have always interpreted this as obstinate sellers, but I suppose it could be that no one has offered them any amount of money for the cars.
I’ll look around; if I see one that looks promising I might see how low they would be willing to go. Most of the cars I see are advertised for $4k after the tax credit (~$6,000 without it) so $1,000 is a big ask. It would be worth a shot, though.
Ripping the doors off would make the interior a moldy mess within a week. Any retrofit to the interior would likely cost thousands. Besides, the HVAC is the best part.
I would remove carpet and any upholstery other than the seats (headliner, trunk carpet, etc.). I would cover the seats with waterproof seat covers. The seat covers would cost around $300 at most. After that, I would drill drain holes in the floorboards, and spray the bare metal surfaces with a DIY truck bedliner (~$100). The only other challenge would be adding mirrors. Since those are attached to the doors; I presume cheap mirrors intended for Jeeps could be attached somehow.
I’m not saying the end result would look particularly professional, but it would be fun. I still think this is a great idea. I’m sure there are a lot of reasons why this is a bad idea, but that is why I wouldn’t want to spend more than $1,000 to buy the car.
Careful drilling those holes in the floorboards…that’s where the battery is!
The battery doesn’t appear to extend all the way to the sides, so there is probably a safe place to add drain holes somewhere. Might have to build up the center of the floor to get water to run off to the sides (the drain holes could go more to the sides than directly under the car). This would take some planning to do safely, obviously. Drilling into the battery or high voltage wires would definitely ruin your day!
The white steelies are purely b/c of Fantasy Island, right? Love Boat was a lightweight but fitting run-up to its superior chops on Saturday night.
If you played the drinking game, you were already sloshed by the time Fantasy Island started anyway
I do wonder if Montalban’s connection with Chrysler got them a nice (Riccardo pause) discount.
I wondered about that as well. Especially since producer Aaron Spelling and nearly everybody else in Hollywood used Fords as hero cars.
Of course Chrysler was on the rocks in the late 1970s, so they had to get some screen time to stay afloat. Those custom Volare beach buggies sure did the trick. Too bad Chrysler couldn’t legally sell them.
How about a company slogan? Be Leaf.
David should throw a lift kit and knobby tires on his, pack the trunk full of solar panels, and compete in the Baja 1000. However long that would take.
Cut my Leaf into pieces
This is my last resort
My admiration for your brilliant post is matched only by my resentment for popping that song into my head.
No Suffocation
Clean breathing
Don’t give a fuck if my passenger is bleeding
“cut my life into pieces
this is my BEACH resort”
it was *right* there man!