It snowed here in North Carolina yesterday, and, predictably everyone lost their shit. North Carolina, despite getting snow with at least some degree of regularity, if not that much snow, doesn’t deal well with snow at all. I mean, roads get plowed and brine gets sprayed and, generally, the infrastructure works as it should, but nearly everyone who ends up driving seems deeply unhappy. Not just unhappy, though: nervous. And the way many, many drivers express their nervousness is by turning on their hazard lights. This is a terrible idea, and should stop.
I noticed this as I was picking up Autopian co-dummy David from the airport last night. It was dark but clear, and the roads weren’t great. Not terrible, but there were slick patches and it definitely demanded more attention than a normal jaunt down the 40. Visibility wasn’t a problem, which I thought might be a justification for putting on some blinky lights, but that’s not really what people are thinking. They’re thinking this sucks, I don’t feel confident driving in it, so I want people to know. Hence the hazards.
I know some may feel it makes their car more visible in poor conditions. In really awful visibility conditions, a rear fog lamp is a much better solution, but those are not common in the US. Maybe the hazards could help a bit there, but even then, it’s illegal to do so in plenty of states!
I think mostly people just seem to use them when they don’t feel comfortable driving in some crappy situation.
And that’s not necessarily a bad instinct, really! The problem is that when an uncomfortable driver puts on their hazard lights, they’re actually doing more than they realize. They’re also eliminating their ability to indicate when they intend to turn, which is a pretty big deal. Nervous people who decided to turn their hazards on still need to change lanes and exit freeways and make turns, and those hazards are eliminating their ability to do just that.
Driving with your hazards on also diminishes the impact of cars that really need to identify themselves as a true hazard: cars that are stuck or broken down or otherwise immobile.
While it’s definitely more fun to blame those drivers that just use their hazard lights in any kind of bad weather or when they feel Mercury is in retrograde or they had some bad clams or whatever, the truth is that the real issue is with the hazard lights themselves.
Back in the day when they were first mandated, in 1966, blinking all four turn indicators was by far the easiest way to get the desired effect. The turn signals were the only lights already configured to flash, after all. But it’s become clear that they’re not the best choice, because, again, they eliminate an extremely important feature of taillights: turn signals. And for that I will not stand.
We live in an automotive era where it would not be hard to, while still using only existing hardware, find a new way to make hazard lights work. On some cars, I suspect changes could be made with over-the-air updates! Regardless of how it’s done, there are viable options that I firmly think would work better as a hazard indicator than just blinking all the turn signals.
This was an idea David had: blink the indicators as normal, but when the turn signal stalk is moved to actually indicate a turn, switch hazard functionality to the CHMSL (center high-mount stop light). Here’s a mockup of how that may look:
That does preserve the function of the turn signals, but I think it’s a bit too complex. I have another idea: what if we make those reverse lights earn their keep a little bit more?
Reverse lights are nice and bright, they never flash when in actual reversing use, and I think they would definitely get attention. And, of course, all normal functions like turn indicating and braking and normal taillights or whatever are completely intact.
Also, I don’t think anyone will assume the driver is rhythmically shifting into and out of reverse gear, because people aren’t that stupid. Maybe in parking lots some people may get pissed because they see a flash that suggests someone is backing out of a spot, like how GM uses them when a car is locked/unlocked. And no one really likes that. But I think this context and behavior will be different enough (GM tends to keep them on longer, for example) to avoid that issue.
Now, I don’t have a solution for what to do up front; I think for the front, if there is a separate side/parking light/DRL, then that is definitely what should blink; if not, I guess we can grudgingly stay with the indicators. But for new cars, that have to have DRLs already, I think we can demand that! Why not?
So, here’s my proposal: until we change how hazard lights work – which we should, and I think that means blinking the reverse lamps in rear, the DRLs up front – then people shouldn’t use their hazards when they’re just unsure of how they’re driving or are uncomfortable with the conditions. I get that it feels safer and there is some benefit to letting the world know, but it does more harm than good.
I’ll go around to all of my usual taillight bar and bathhouse hangouts and spread the word of flashing-reverse hazard lights, and see how it plays out. But I’ll need everyone’s help if we’re to make this change a reality! Or, if you have a better idea, tell me in the comments! I’ll listen! With my eyes! By reading!
I’ve driven though too many whiteout conditions on 75mph interstates in the west. Typically you have a convoy of people using hazards on the right. Doing maybe 35 mph. Leaving the left lane for passing. Normally some insane person trying to do 80 wiping out in the ditch eventually. Alot of states have laws when to use hazards. Alot of times if you are below a certain speed. While saying not to above a certain percentage or speed.
“Also, I don’t think anyone will assume the driver is rhythmically shifting into and out of reverse gear, because people aren’t that stupid.”
Oh yes they are. Absolutely.
Cue the brake-pedal tap-dancers.
Related: I really wish that semi trucks using their hazard lights only flashed the lights on the very back of the trailer. I drive regularly over a 3-lane mountain pass, and often find myself driving next to a semi with their “hazards under 40” flashing away. When you’re next to one of these trucks you can only see the one in the side, and all you see is a bright yellow arrow flashing what looks like a lane change in your direction. And these trucks often have to change lanes quickly because they’re going different speeds up the grade, so they change from flashers to turn signals in an instant and when you’re next to them you can see zero difference.
I lived in NC and I’m surprised you saw anyone on the road. Whenever there was a rumor of a very slight chance of a couple of snowflake falling within a couple hundred miles, they declared a snow day and shut everything down.
I like the reverse lamp alternative. When I come around a curve or crest a hill and get surprised by a long line of stopped cars, I’ll hit the flashers for a few seconds to get the attention of those behind me. Just a few blinks.
This is pure genius. And I would like to ask the geniuses to ramp it up. Particular ly emergency vehicles, school buses, plow trucks, trash trucks, etc. I get the lights are for safety and count me 200% in on it. But when they are so bright they blind others drivers, or you are miles between stops, or you have so many extra lights it looks like you are leading a parade maybe we need more legislation, God forbid.
Just make rear fog lights significantly more common.
But with a way for people to stop using blinding rear fog lamps in not fog lamp weather as hyundai drivers especially liked doing here in Australia.
I just read that the snow in NC this week broke a streak of 1400+ snowless days, so getting snowed on once in nearly four years doesn’t give people a lot of chances to practice the driving skills.
Just stay off the damn roads, pour some peppermint schnapps in your coffee and catch upon your netflix queue.
I’m in Charlotte and I think it has snowed three separate times here this winter.
Speaking of, maybe Jason could’ve let David drive, he’s out of practice too from LA but he did live in Detroit for a decade.
This is the third day of measurable snowfall I’ve had just since November.
Where I am averages 4-6 inches a winter. Its nothing like where I grew up in PA, but its not 1400 days of no snow either.
Your source was wrong….like…..really wrong.
Years ago my wife and I were visiting her dad down in NC from CT mid-winter. Picked up a nail in one of the snow tires on her Jetta, so we went to the local tire shop to have it plugged. It was interesting/funny to see what a curiosity snow tires were to the staff at the tire shop. Like they had heard of them, but never seen them on a car.
I got a similar reaction when i walked into a local mom&pop auto parts store in GA in 1995 and asked if they had tire chains
I’m already annoyed by cars/SUVs/trucks whose reverse lights turn on when they are parked. Let’s leave the reverse lights alone.
Driving in snowy conditions in a city that rarely gets snow is a very good reason to have your hazards on. You’re very likely to encounter drivers that simply don’t understand or aren’t ready for the loss of traction that these conditions cause, and furthermore, pretty much no one will have snow tires. Braking distances become dramatically increased, and you don’t want someone to learn that by careening in to the back of your car. When people see the hazards, they wake up.
I also turn on hazards when I brake hard on the highway, or when I pull over for an emergency vehicle. (I signal my stop, then turn on the hazards once pulled over)
When driving a bus where I live, hazards are required to be on whenever you drop below 80% road speed. This is usually the case when entering the highway, as the vehicle can’t accelerate fast enough.
I simply turn off the hazards while merging so that I can signal, then turn them back on once I’ve changed lanes.
Could be worse.
I just arrived home after sunset. Saw at least two cars on the highway with no lights on.
Use a strobe. Like on the track.
Who crashes in racing, anyway?
The real message here is if you feel uncomfortable enough to turn on your hazards you need to move over into the right lane. Period.
Just looking at the lead photo is making me nervous.
Also flashing brake lights need to die!!
1000 times yes, go as slow as you want just get over.
Driving on I-78 in a downpour through New Jersey and Pennsylvania last spring, I lost count of how many cars went past us in the left lane with their hazards on and we ended up passing back by them because they were freshly spun out.
Using reverse lights is a terrible idea as the reason white lights aren’t used facing other drivers is that it can negatively affect vision in low light conditions. They also have a long-established, specific function as reverse lights and that’s just asking for further confusion from people who already struggle to get by with cognitive abilities below that of a smarter ornamental dog.
I have seen people hit the hazards while under sudden heavy braking situations to warn drivers behind/hopefully get their dumbasses not to rear-end them. I don’t know how they’re able to hit the button while reacting to the situation—it’s not like I have the hazard light location in muscle memory and even a clunker is unlikely to allow one so many opportunities to use them, but I’ve seen it multiple times. At those times, I’m too busy looking for avenues of escape, judging the cars around me for what they might do, keeping an eye on the mirror for the odds-favored moron behind me, and trying to stop in time or managing that stopping distance based on my assessment of the following vehicle.
Some cars turn on the hazards automatically in that situation.
Ah, of course. That’s probably it. Some of these were older cars, but not so old that they could not have had that feature.
yes hazzards are automatic when ABS is activated on a lot of new cars which is a great idea.
“Reverse lights aren’t just for reversing” – GM, for some reason
If I am driving and I hit sudden bad weather, crash which has just occurred, I turn on my hazards while in motion for one reason- I have zero trust that the asshat behind me is paying attention to the upcoming conditions and is liable to plow into me.
So it serves as a warning to a sudden and unexpected hazard. Once I have some confidence that the car behind me is slowing down, I turn them off.
I’m not driving and driving with these lights blinking on in poor weather, but I am using them to get the attention of the person behind me that something is up.
Also, if there is absolute white out conditions and I can’t see ahead or behind me, I will turn them on just to try to be more visible.
“So it serves as a warning to a sudden and unexpected hazard. Once I have some confidence that the car behind me is slowing down, I turn them off.”
Same usage, also. I live near mountains, and it’s not uncommon to find a slowdown on mountain interstates/state highways regardless of the weather/time of year. As long as you’re paying attention, not a big deal to brake and then hit the hazards. I’ve found that other drivers seem to notice it and react accordingly.
Veteran snow driver here, living in the snow belt off of Lake Erie. The only time I turn my hazards on driving in the snow is when it is white out conditions and I can’t see much more than past the hood.
I grew up rear the Cuyahoga/Geauga line and spent PLENTY of time riding in or diving in terrible snow. It was part of life here, and most people know how to manage relatively well.
I find myself using my hazards more often now than I used to, mostly because there are more “AWD” equipped cars on the roads. There is a large subset of people who seem to think 4 wheel drive means 4 wheel stop, so they just blast down the freeway doing 75, no matter the conditions or the behavior of other drivers.
Im comfortable in the snow, but if everyone else is driving cautiously and slowly, I’ll slow down as well, just because I dont want to come blazing up behind someone going slowly, or zig-zag from lane to lane to dodge slower traffic.
What concerns me are the people who act like its just a regular sunny day and they’re impervious to harm. I put my hazards on so maybe they get the picture and dont come screaming up into my mirror, and I end up the meat in a 3 car sandwich
All cars are 4 wheel stop, unless you don’t have rear brakes.
We call it 4 wheel slide
What I gathered from this and from your post about the Beetle a few days ago is
1) that we are roughly neighbors, because I’m having a hard time thinking you did a day trip to Graham from Charlotte or Asheville, and are more likely to be in central or eastern NC.
2) David is here, so shenangians are afoot.
3) I’d like to meet you both for lunch if you both have the time!
Also, I think hazards are fine if you are moving significantly slower than traffic, regardless of why. Its an alert to me that I need to move over,give you space, and pass you, whether you are moving or not. I do like the CHMSL idea, though.
Some states even have signs that tell you that you must use them if you are under a certain speed on a highway.
Damn it, why can’t we just make Torch the President?
Do you really want to turn the US into Jasonia?
It will be safer for the whole planet. Look where we are now!
Were better off than 1914-1918, 1929-1945, 1955-1963, 1968-1973, 1991-1993, 2001-2004, 2008-2012,…
Not sure everyone is in the group you are talking about when you say we.
YMMV
At least he won’t put Elon in charge of anything. Maybe replace DOGE with the Department of Getting The Torchbug Running Again.
I fully agree with you, but you forgot to mention that it is even worse with American vehicles who use a combined brake/turn signal light.
If you only see one side of the car (or if a light bulb is out), you have no way of knowing if they are turning, braking, or simply scared of the rain…
I’ve heard that it can be customary for European drivers to blink the hazards a couple times to say “thank you,” like for letting someone merge. For US cars with a combo brake/signal that might come off like a brake check.
If you grew up driving in the US, this is never a concern. Context matters, as well as paying attention to what is happening to gain the proper context.
car computer shut off hazard flashers after short time – unless stopped.
10sec?5sec?
…for clarity, the above is a potential solution to JT’s concern. could even be an OTA update
Just mount a pair of big inflatable hands on the roof that flap around like Olive Oyl being carried off by Bluto. Let everyone know here’s another flibbertygibbit on parade.
C O T F D
THANK YOU!!
This is in my Bad Driving Habits Hall of Fame. Yes, we are all aware that the conditions are bad, or that traffic is slowing down. What are we not aware of? That lane change you want to make or exit you want to take. Stay home if you’re that worried about the weather.
I don’t really have a problem with this.
If you’re annoyed by the hazard light usage… that means you notice the vehicles even more than before… which means you probably are more aware of the conditions.
I don’t drive with the hazards on unless:
Oh, so you’re THAT driver. If you’re farting around with your hazards while driving, you’re not paying as much attention to what is going on around you than you think.
So… under zero of the instances above you would use your hazards? No warning to people behind you? You just have that much faith that people will recognize what’s happening in front of YOUR car and they won’t rear-end you?
Ok then.
I’ll keep doing what I’m doing when driving on snow filled rocky mountain roads. It’s not like I leave my driveway and put hazards on to start every drive, it’s usage is for temporary situations.
I will – and have – used the hazards on my car to indicate there is an issue with my vehicle. For example, I was helping my mother transport a large cake to an event. We went early in the morning and I didn’t go more than 10 MPH, so I drove with my hazards on to let people know they could go around me.
The argument your making is basically that drivers are so clueless that your turning your hazards on will make them do something other than target fixate on your flashing lights defies logic.
So it’s not acceptable to use hazards when you’re in an actually hazardous situation but it is OK to use it when you’re transporting cake? Seems a bit backwards to me.
Woah woah woah… don’t question them, they have logic! hahaha
You use your hazards when you are the hazard, to draw attention to you. How is this not obvious?
….how does that differ from throwing them on in low visibility situations or when you’re braking heavily or driving slowly because of said weather conditions?
Is a car that is decelerating abruptly not a hazard? Is a car that is nearly invisible because of whiteout conditions not a hazard? Is a car decelerating abruptly in whiteout conditions not a hazard?
If I have a cake in my car and encounter these conditions and am driving slowly, can I then put my hazards on? I guess I don’t know why driving slow because of cake is more hazardous than driving slow because of weather or visibility.
It’s about delta. If everyone on the road is dealing with the same conditions and driving about the same speed, what is the point of the flashers? Conversely, if you’re driving significantly slower than the flow of traffic, you warning other drivers that you are a… what’s the word I’m looking for… hazard, is correct.
Apparently you’ve repeatedly chosen to skip reading the words “decelerating abruptly” or “low visibility” in the examples.
The first indicates everyone is not “driving the same speed”, hence the need to alert those following you especially in adverse conditions. The second would imply difficulty seeing the cars around you and things like lights increase visibility during something like a whiteout… so visibility would be the point…
Frankly, most people can figure out they should pass a car going 10MPH down the road on a clear day rather than rear end them, hazards or not. Most people I know can’t X-ray vision their way through a whiteout and avoid the invisible 50 car pileup a mile ahead. From personal experience, hazards help in that situation.
But hey, to each his own. Keep protecting us from your slow cake deliveries. I’ll throw my hazards on when I see cars skidding into the ditch ahead of me.
I haven’t mentioned those things because that is not what hazards are for. Something that apparently is lost on you. Meanwhile, I use hazards for what they are intended. Again, lost on you.
Sure pal
It’s pretty easy to slap the hazards on in most cars built in this century. Fiddly little hazard light switches on the steering column went out in the 90s.
I don’t brake check. I go full Nixon and make them think I’m crazy.
Works every time.
haha yeah, there are safe ways to do this and acting crazy does have its benefits.
While I can see very valid argument that we are in a position to improve on existing flasher technology, I’m not convinced by your increased hazard argument. I would very much like to know what kind of data is available to support that increased risk argument. It should be supportable with data from incidents where someone claims the issue was “I didn’t know they were turning because of their hazards” or “I thought they were pulled over and stopped because of their hazards” type statements.
I can’t personally say I’ve ever felt at greater risk when surrounding drivers drove with their flashers on. You’ve been warned they are nervous and not necessarily doing what you expect. Keep your distance and slow roll, you shouldn’t be so surprised by a turn that you can’t respond, because they already warned you.
All that being said, when I’ve had to turn on flashers to get off a road cuz something went wrong, I do actually manually turn off my flashers and signal to move over, then turn the flashers back on.
Or just disable the hazards at a certain speed. Or when the turn signal is activated.
20 mph. In case you’re crawling on the shoulder trying to get to the next exit.