Chinese cars have been in the news lately, as they — to many — represent a threat to the American auto industry. At the same time, they represent a potential relief in what many see as an overly expensive EV landscape, and thus a way to potentially get more people to give up gas guzzlers for cleaner cars. Will China come to the U.S. or won’t they? In Western countries that are less protectionist, China is already there, competing hard via genuinely compelling and outside-the-box EVs. While in Germany last summer, I had a chance to drive some of those Chinese EVs and…well, they are good. Very good.
How did we get here? How is it that China is building world-beating electric cars? It wasn’t long ago that China’s automotive industry found itself multiple steps behind that of the West. In fact, many Western automakers considered the Chinese market a veritable gravy train — a place where the local automakers weren’t meeting an astronomically large demand for good cars, leaving a humongous gap for American and European companies.
And so the West filled the gap, and as a result, its coffers with exorbitant quantities of cash. In fact, ten years ago, the Chinese market was pretty much the only thing any Western automaker wanted to talk about. The sales opportunities seemed endless, and in many ways, it felt like the beginning of a huge opportunity for corporate growth.
The Joint Venture: China’s Brilliant Chess Move
But China isn’t dumb. It was not just going to allow the West to sell cars and export billions of dollars out of China. No, China wanted something in return for access to the biggest car market on earth: It wanted its own competitive auto industry. And to make that happen, it established a Joint-Venture system. Some version of this had been around for a while (since the late 1980s, at least), but, especially in the last decade, the system’s value has become undeniable as China finally — for the first time ever — becomes a dominant player in the auto world.
To describe how this all went down, I’ll quote my colleague Tycho, who is a world-class expert in the Chinese auto market, having lived in China and covered its auto industry for over a decade. I asked him a bit about the origin of the Joint Ventures, to which he replied:
“In the 1980s, the Chinese government realized it was way behind the West in car making. To kick-start the industry, it created the joint venture system. Under this system, foreign car makers could only produce cars in China with a local partner, and they could not have more than 50% of the shares. Deng Xiaoping, the chief architect of China’s reform and opening up [to the west], gave a very important instruction to the automobile industry, “Joint ventures are allowed, not only for cars, but also for heavy-duty vehicles.“
Really, they were more than just “allowed,” they were required. And western automakers gladly accepted this knowing full well why China was doing it. “The goal of the Chinese government was clear to everyone and not a secret,” Tycho told me. “But with such a large and potentially lucrative market, Western car makers just couldn’t resist the deal.”
Tycho says that, early on, the system didn’t seem to spur much innovation locally, much to the chagrin of the government. “[Local companies] were happy to let the foreign partners develop the cars and cash the profits,” he said, though this began changing in the 2000s when stronger local carmakers like BYD, Chery, Geely, and Great Wall rose to power. This, along with the financial crisis that led western partners to reduce investment in China, Tycho told me, led the Chinese partners in the joint ventures to focus more on building their brands.
He told me that, prior to the Joint Venture era that began in the 1980s, Chinese car manufacturing “was basic at best,” with little auto development, dated production methods, and certainly no true efficient “mass production” strategy. “It was a notch above handbuilt, but not a big notch,” he said. “The joint ventures certainly taught Chinese car companies how to mass produce cars, everything from production to managing supply chains to distribution.”
Tycho went on, discussing the state of the Chinese car market even just ten years ago.”In 2014, some 19.7 million passenger cars were sold in China. The local brands accounted for 38%, the rest was for the joint ventures,” Tycho told me. “EV sales were non-existent, there were a few PHEVs and HEVs that sold in tiny numbers. The SUV segment was booming, followed by MPVs and sedans. There was some EV development, but at the time, nobody took it seriously.” Tycho says foreign partners were loving all the cash flowing in.
When I asked how China became so dominant in the auto world recently, Tycho broke it down for me. “China could become dominant because the country was at the right place at the right time, with the right policies and the right companies,” he said. “In 2009, during the financial crisis, China became the largest auto market in the world. It was expected that China would become the largest one day, but not that soon. This led to more investments in the automotive sector, with many new suppliers and new car makers.”
Beyond the Joint Venture system, there were other key policies related to a Chinese government category called “NEVs,” or New Energy Vehicles, which include BEVs, PHEVs, and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. This category was subject to absolutely enormous subsidies from both the central and state governments, which played huge roles in accelerating this class of vehicle development.
“With a booming local market, the government saw an opportunity to get ahead of the rest of the world in EVs, and set up policies to support electric vehicles,” Tycho told me, with subsidies — which essentially reduced the price of an EV by 20 to 30 percent — acting as the primary support. “Other perks included easier access to license plates, a roll-out of charging stations by state-owned energy companies, and local perks like free parking spaces for NEVs.”
Building infrastructure was critical, too, with Tycho discussing the supply chain needed to build NEVs at scale:
At the same time, Chinese companies began with creating a fully Chinese supply chain for EVs. It was not a state-only operation, more like a mix of state-owned and private companies.”
“Chinese businesses already owned large mining concessions in countries like the DRC [Democratic Republic of the Congo], and these were now extended to cobalt. There was no large-scale refinery for cobalt, or for lithium, anywhere in the world, so China expanded its existing facilities. That, in turn, made it possible for other Chinese companies to setup battery-part and battery production. It is also important to mention the Chinese consumer, which is quite a different kind than the average American/European/Japanese consumer. Chinese consumers are not vested in the ICE age, they are less traditional, and not loyal to any brand or technology. They are willing to try and buy new brands, with new tech and with new design.”
NEVs were crucial in the Chinese automotive revolution, as Wired writes in its story “How China’s EV Boom Caught Western Car Companies Asleep at the Wheel.” That piece quotes Andy Palmer, who was COO of Nissan for a while, CEO of Aston Martin, and subsequently in the EV bus and charger space:
“China has a vast market, it has economies of scale, it has subsidies and encouragement from central government, and it has an international strategy that seeks dominance in overseas markets with a product—affordable electric vehicles—that Western manufacturers aren’t able to make,” says Palmer. He saw China’s long-term game plan firsthand when, in 2005, he was a board member of a 50-50 joint venture between Nissan and China’s Dongfeng Motor Corporation.
“I was a rare foreigner in the middle of that environment,” says Palmer, “and I saw how China carried out its series of five-year plans. Even back then, it was apparent that China had concluded that they couldn’t compete with the West with internal combustion engines. Their risky but innovative solution was that the way to leapfrog the West was through what they called ‘new energy vehicles.’”
Today it’s local brands leading the EV revolution in China. But what about all the joint-ventures that dominated that market and helped bring auto engineering know-how to China? How did they get overtaken? Tycho says these companies find themselves behind, having not taken the EV boom seriously.
“In the 2010s, some joint ventures paid lip-service to the policies of the Chinese government by setting up half-baked electric sub-brands,” he told me. “The government was not amused. For a long time, joint ventures thought that EV development would lead to nothing. The Chinese partners were split. Some expected more and pushed for it, others agreed and didn’t do anything.”
He gives the example of SAIC, which developed EVs for its own brands rather than relying on its Joint Ventures with General Motors and Volkswagen. He also mentions Dongfeng. “It has joint ventures with Honda, Nissan, and Peugeot-Citroen,” he wrote. “All of these are in big trouble because they missed out on EVs. Dongfeng itself is in trouble too, it was too late for the early boom, and is now trying to catch up.”
It’s been a wild ride for the Chinese auto industry, from building fairly crude automobiles up until the 1980s to building expertise through joint ventures to finally becoming a worldwide powerhouse in EV design thanks to heavy government investment, battery mineral mining advantages, consumers who were willing to buy from new brands, a history in excellence when it comes to electronics design, and a slew of other factors that all converged to bring China to the cutting edge. Finally.
I had a chance to drive a few Chinese cars, and I observed another important factor in China’s rise to the top of the EV world: Speed.
I Drove A Bunch Of Chinese EVS. They Are Amazing
At the annual German Car of the Year event, I had the chance to get behind the wheel of a number of Chinese cars for sale in Germany — yes, competing against manufacturers who had, in order to make fat short-term profits, in some ways taught these Chinese automakers how to build cars via Joint Ventures. China’s strategy worked. These vehicles are now strong contenders in Europe, offering truly unique driving experiences at highly competitive pricepoints. They’re not perfect, but they are on the same playing field as western EVs, and that’s impressive given where the Chinese auto industry was just a few years ago.
Take the Aiways U5, a sub-$40,000 car that focused on value above all else. Here on Reddit is you can read an apparent Aiways U5-purchaser describing their rationale for purchasing the Chinese vehicle:
Before buying the U5, I also drove in the VW ID4, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and the KIA EV6. It is easily the best car for the money. The ID4 is actually smaller, has the same range and i dont see the advantages above the U5.
The Ioniq 5 does look quite quirky and I do love the design. The UI is more refined and seems more finished that the U5. But the price difference is too big to justify the difference.
The EV6 is also a great contender, but it is simply a lot more expensive than the U5. Especially if you want to have the same amount extras as the U5 has standard the price difference is way too big.
Let me know what you think. Happy to answer any questions you might have.
It’s this sort of logic that drives folks to buy cars from these Chinese brands — value for money. Though increasingly, in certain markets Chinese EVs are becoming so compelling, they’re also commanding high prices not dissimilar from their western counterparts.
Aiways U5 and U6: Learning From A Strong First Effort
Before I get to the Aiways U6, I should mention that I drove its predecessor, the Aiways U5, the year prior. Here’s a literal steaming pile of crap, and also the Aiways:
The video at the top of this section is titled “The Aiways U5 Is Not A Steaming Pile,” because on paper, one might think that it should be. Chinese cars, as mentioned earlier, were historically… not amazing, and Aiways was a brand new company when the U5 came out; this is the brand’s first offering. And, in that context, it’s surprisingly decent!
The interior material quality was good, but not great. And the overall design, while perhaps a bit basic, was functional enough and far from hideous. I appreciate that Aiways inserted a bag to act as a glovebox, since it knew that Germans would want something there; but the truth is, I think the company would have been better to just leave that out. The bag just draws attention to the missing glovebox, which is not that uncommon on modern cars (the Lexus RZ that I just drove also doesn’t have a glovebox, for example).
What the U5 does have that some others (like VW’s ID4) don’t is a frunk:
Also worth noting: The legroom in the rear is absurd, in a good way:
The battery offers 63 kWh of capacity, powering a ~200 horsepower motor driving the front wheels. Range is an estimated 250-ish miles on the European WLTP cycle. Overall, the material quality inside was good, the big screen on the dashboard was nice, and the ride was pleasant.
Really, the biggest downsides of the car was its torque steer (due to it being front-wheel drive); brakes that didn’t feel natural (in an EV, perfectly blending the regenerative braking with friction braking is a tricky thing to do); and its 3-star NCAP safety rating, which would put off some buyers. But overall, it was a great first offering, and one that Aiways clearly learned from.
That brings me to the Aiways U6, the successor to the not-steaming-pile U5. It ratchets things up to another level entirely. It is a fantastic machine, in large part because it’s different. And that’s a key point I want to make about modern Chinese EVs; while Chinese automakers certainly learned some manufacturing techniques from their Joint-Venture partners, they are not just copying Western machines: They’re building unique, fun, and creative cars. I know that, with all the Chinese copycat cars that have shown up over the years, there’s a kneejerk thought that anything coming out of the country is going to emulate instead of innovate — that just isn’t the case. China truly is at the cutting edge of EV development, and not just because the country has been building electronics at an elite level for decades. No, it’s not just about the hardware, it’s about design, too.
The Aiways U6’s exterior is nice enough, with a slim high-mounted set of DRLs featuring outboard headlights just below. Out back, you can see the SUV-Coupe shape, with a big horizontal Heckblende, and drooping taillights. It’s all quite elegant. But that’s not really what I was talking about when I mentioned innovative design; I was talking about the cabin.
Step into the Aiways U6, and you’re greeted by a not two-tone, not-three tone, but four-tone interior that just works. The blue, red, tan, and black team up to create a light and fun interior that is just a great place to spend time. But it’s not just the way the cabin looks that sets the Aiways U6 apart, it’s how it works. Take the shifter for example. It’s unlike anything I’ve ever used:
The shifter looks like something out of an airplane, but instead of pushing it down and pulling it back to adjust thrust, it twists. You simply grab the nice blue “tube” and crank it back towards you for drive and towards the front of the car for reverse, with nice detents and a red light indicating which “gear” you’re in. The park button is on the left side, as shown above.
It’s an awesome shifter in an awesome cabin. Just ahead of it in the photo above, you can see the wireless charging pad placed up high, and in a totally practical spot. Up above is a huge, crisp screen, and to the left of that is the “gauge cluster,” which is an elegant, slim design that tells the “gear,” the range, the time, the outside temperature, and the battery state of charge:
Here’s a closer look at the “gauges”:
And here’s that screen:
The back seat, like the U5’s, is absolutely humongous:
But unlike the U5, the frunk is gone:
And also unlike the U5: there is a glovebox!:
There’s so much more I could say about the Aiways’s cabin, especially its infotainment system and its driver-assist features, but I admittedly spent most of my time focusing on driving, so my main takeaway was just that the design and material quality blew my expectations out of the water:
Before I get to the driving dynamics, here’s a bit about the Aiways U6 and the company behind it, per our Chinese Auto Industry-expert, Tycho:
Aiways is a new Chinese EV company, founded in 2017 and based in Shanghai. Founders were Fu Qiang, former China sales director of Volvo Cars (Geely), and Gu Feng, a former executive of SAIC. Their first car was the Aiways U5 SUV, launched in 2018. The Aiways U6 SUV-coupe is their second car, launched in 2021. That’s it, no more cars were ever launched, and Aiways doesn’t sell cars in China anymore. The company suspended production in its main factory in late 2023 and has been in financial trouble ever since. Aiways says it wants to focus on an export-only sales model, the current status of these plans is unclear.
Aiways U6: 189 inches long. Single motor, front-wheel drive. 160 kW and 315 Nm (215 horsepower, 232 lb-ft). Top speed:160 km/h (100 mph), 0-100 in 6.9 seconds.
The car I drove was basically mechanically the same as the Aiways U5 not-steaming-pile; it had a 63 kWh battery (offering about 250 miles of range on the European WLTP cycle) feeding the front wheels, and though its output was a little higher than the U5, it certainly wasn’t much quicker. It felt pokey thanks to the inherent response of an electric motor, but 0-60 in 7 seconds ain’t fast anymore, even if it is totally sufficient.
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Rear visibility was quite poor, largely due to the coupe-ish shape, and the understeer from the U5 was still very much there. Also still there was a rather unnatural braking feel; the transition between regen and friction brakes was too pronounced. I also found there to be a bit more road/wind noise than would be ideal, I thought the car’s “creep” function at stop signs was a bit too quick, and at over $45 grand, it wasn’t exactly dirt-cheap.
Overall, the car wasn’t a canyon-carver by any stretch, but the ride quality was decent; Android Auto worked great on that crisp, big screen; the huge standard glass roof was nice and airy; and though dynamically it wasn’t anything to write home to the kids about, it was still a lot of fun.
Is it the best for the money? It may not be, and that’s the case with some of the cars here. They aren’t all the best value, but they’re all quite competitive technology-wise. Here’s what Autocar had to say about the Aiways U6 in a review that gives it a 3.5-star rating:
What will be interesting to see when it does go on sale in the UK is how Brits react to a car that offers a good deal of style and substance but without any badge recognition or the reputation of the established Asian and European brands.
With a starting price of €47,588 (£41,700) in Germany, where Aiways has a sales and engineering base, it’s pitched some €8000 (£7000) above the U5. Such pricing invites competition from the likes of the Kia EV6, Skoda Enyaq iV and Tesla Model Y – a fight in which surely only a brave gambler would back it.
ORA Funky Cat: Lots Of Fun In A Small Package
The ORA Funky Cat has changed names since I last drove it; it’s now the ORA O3, which is significantly uninspired. But you can take away the fun name, but you won’t take away the fun character, because that’s built into the design. Check it out:
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I mean, check out the exclamation badge right up front!
After you unlock the car, the daytime running lights do a fun little dance, then when you open the door you see some fish do a dance on the center screen (see above), and to the left of that screen you see the exclamation again on the steering wheel that acts as the centerpiece of the gorgeous interior:
Look at that incredible blue-and-tan two-tone look. Absolutely fantastic! And the quality is good!:
Here’s a look at a black interior I sat in, as well:
The Funky Cat has dual screens — one ahead of the driver and one at the top of the center stack. There are elegant little toggle switches for the HVAC down below that screen:
And if you look at the A-pillar, there’s driver-monitoring tech to make sure you don’t fall asleep.
The camera technology on the Funky Cat is second-to-none, especially at the price point. These photos won’t do it justice, but the quality, and the excellent views shown on the screen — awesome:
The shifter is a rotary dial on the center console, just ahead of the center arm rest/storage bin. It’s pretty bad, offering no feedback at all other than some lights telling you when you’re in reverse, neutral, or drive. I also think that a shifter like this should be out of the way to free up this space for more storage.
Other issues: Rear visibility is rough:
And rear storage space is limited, as well:
There’s also no frunk:
But the small trunk and lack of frunk means the occupant seating space is huge.
Between the nice, roomy, fun, and high-quality cabin cabin, the light steering, the legitimately quick acceleration, the decent ride quality on city streets (I didn’t drive it on the freeway), the Funky Cat is just cool. Here’s Tycho with a little background on the Funky Cat:
ORA Funky Cat
ORA is an EV-brand under Great Wall Motors, aimed at young folks, especially women. The brand was founded in 2018. ORA stands for ‘open, reliable and alternative’. The car names are rather alternative indeed, and include/included: Ballet Cat, Good Cat, Lightning Cat, Black Cat, White Cat, and Chery Cat. We are still waiting for the Punk Cat.
The ORA Funky Cat is a compact hatchback: 167 inches long. Single motor, FWD. 105 kW and 210 Nm (141 HP, 155 lb-ft), or 135 kW and 232 Nm (181 HP, 171 lb-ft). Top speed limited to 150 km/h, 0-50 in 3.8/3.5 seconds. LFP battery. 49.92 kWh for 501 km or 57.71 kWh for 501 km. Price in China starts at 107.800 yuan ($15K) for the most basic version.
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It’s worth noting that the one I drove (see video above) I think had 169 horsepower and a 43 kWh battery, offering a range of 193 miles on Europe’s WLTP cycle. It felt quick and responsive, probably doing 0-60 somewhere in the 7s.
My only final note on the car is “AEB too intrusive,” and that’s something that it seems other journalists have complained about as well, with Car and Driver writing:
But the biggest distraction from the cabin’s calm was a multitude of beeps and alarms. The Funky Cat has a speed-monitoring system that pings every time the car goes above a posted speed limit, even by a single mph. The lane-keep assistant chimes if it feels the car is straying from its lane, eventually intervening further with aggressive self-steering. A driver-monitoring system adds yet further admonishment if it thinks the pilot’s attention is wandering. Deactivating these is an awkward, multi-stage process, and the lane-keep system frustratingly defaults to on with each restart.
At about $36,000, the Ora Funky Cat ain’t cheap, but it’s competitive (A Tesla Model 3 starts at about $44,000 in Germany), and above all, it is — like the Aiways — just fun. Autocar gave the Funky Cat (renamed the Ora 03) a 3.5-star review, writing:
So when a new-to-Europe brand launches a new car like the 03, we must praise it for hitting a competitive mark in some, if not quite all, ways. It will draw in potential buyers with likeably cheerful styling and a plush interior. For its size, it’s quite keenly priced, so if someone was considering a Fiat 500 or Mini Electric as a predominantly urban EV, the 03 could be a viable alternative that offers a bit more space.
Compared like for like with cars such as the Vauxhall Corsa Electric, however, it lags on range, charging, long-distance comfort, ease of use, multimedia and assisted driving (no matter what NCAP says). What’s more, a lot of the finer details, like missing features and system glitches, suggest this car isn’t finished and needs another cycle of development.
The MG MG4: A World-Beater In Value
The MG4 is different than the other Chinese cars I drove because it’s not apologetic about the fact that it’s trying to offer the most “value” (i.e. it wants to be cheaper than the competition). Here’s what Inside EVs had to say when MG announced the car:
Following the UK launch earlier this month, MG has announced pricing and the range structure of the MG4 Electric compact hatchback in mainland Europe markets.
Available in Standard, Comfort and Luxury trim levels, the MG4 Electric has an entry-level price of €28,420 ($28,530) in Germany and €28,990 ($29,085) in France; besides Europe’s three biggest car markets, the MG4 will be available in Italy, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg.
The prices correspond to the Standard model featuring a battery capacity of 51 kWh, up to 350 kilometers (217 miles) of range in the WLTP cycle and a rear electric motor delivering 125 kW (168 horsepower). Offering AC public charging at 6.6 kW and DC fast-charging at up to 117 kW, the MG4 Electric Standard can be fast-charged from 10 to 80 percent in 40 minutes.
Under $30 grand! It’s this pricing, along with a general competency that has made the MG4 the second best-selling EV in the U.K., trailing only the Tesla Model Y. I kept this in mind when reviewing the MG4, because it’s not quite as whiz-bang as the others. The interior, for example, is quite basic:
There’s a rotary dial up and out of the way, which I quite like.
The interior was a bit smelly, and the material quality was only “fine.”
There’s a center screen atop the center of the dash, and most functions are input via touch. There are a couple of physical switches at the base of that screen, but I’d definitely like more even if I know they add cost. But overall, I enjoyed driving the MG4, which is actually rear-motor, rear-wheel drive:
The backup camera, too, isn’t going to win any awards:
Nor is the rear visibility (though it’s not the worst I’ve seen):
Another gripe I have: No frunk:
The car I drove wasn’t the base model, but instead a 200 horsepower, 64kWh one costing around $35k and offering about 200-ish miles of WLTP range.
I found it to be rather quick, with an estimated 0-60mph time of around 7.5 if I had to guess. The car is spacious on the inside, and really stands apart from some of its Chinese competitors in the twisties, where it handles quite well.
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“It is good enough, cheap enough, not bad,” is my conclusion in the video above, with the main point being that MG cut costs in all the right places, ultimately offering a compelling EV that doesn’t feel cheap despite a few compromises. Autocar really likes the MG4, giving it 4 stars and concluding:
The MG 4 EV may not move any technological boundaries, but other manufacturers should undoubtedly see this car as a serious threat, because it does so many things so well, and for such a keen price that it is hard to argue you should buy any other electric hatchback.
[…]It makes excellent use of its footprint to offer generous interior space and mostly comfortable accommodation. Range, efficiency and charge speeds are all competitive if not groundbreaking.
As long as you’re not after a premium-feeling product, most of the criticism one can level at the MG 4 is a collection of niggles rather than any substantial failings. The biggest issue is that the adaptive cruise control is very poor. There are also some quality issues in the interior that go beyond those excusable by the low price, though the handful of usability quirks and refinement lapses fade into the background after a few days. The MG 4 is simply a well-rounded electric hatchback at a price that appears impossible to beat.
And should you be curious to learn more about MG and the MG4, here’s a bit of info, per Tycho:
MG is another formerly British brand under SAIC. When MG-Rover went bankrupt in 2009, Nanjing Auto acquired the MG brand and SAIC the IP and assets of the Rover brand, but not the Rover name. SAIC then founded the Roewe brand. So at that time, there were two Chinese companies each holding half of MG Rover. That was not desired so the government arranged a takeover of Nanjing Auto by SAIC, and MG and Rover/Roewe came under one roof once more.
The MG4 EV is a sporty electric hatchback launched in China in 2022, and it is exported to many European countries, including the UK, Germany, and the Netherlands. Size: 169 inches lnog. Power: FWD: 125 kW and 250 Nm or 150 kW and 250 Nm (168 hp, 184 lb-ft; 201 hp, 184 lb-ft). AWD dual motor: 315 kW and 600 Nm. David drove a FWD model. Top speed is limited to 160 km/h (100 mph). Battery: LFP 49 kWh for 425 km or ternary lithium 64 kWh for 520 km or 460 km (the AWD model). Price in China starts at 179.800 yuan ($25K).
Maxus MIFA 9: A Swagger Van
Right away, I’m going to tell you that the best EV at the German Car of the Year was the Maxus MIFA 9, and it gives you an idea of what a Chinese automaker can do with lots of money to spend, because the MIFA 9 isn’t cheap, with a price tag between about $60,000 and $70,000. But it feels it.
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Before I get into that, I’ll let Tycho tell you a bit about Maxus and the MIFA 9:
Maxus is a brand under SAIC. The name originates from the LDV Maxus, a model of the dead British commercial-vehicle maker LDV Group. In 2010, SAIC acquired the company’s IP, including the Maxus name, which SAIC then morphed into the brand name. Initially, Maxus made commercial vehicles, both ICE and NEV. Nowadays, Maxus makes passenger cars as well: MPVs of various sizes, pickup trucks, and SUVs.
The Mifa 9 is a full-size electric MPV, launched in 2021 and updated in late 2023. Size: 207.5 inches long. It is a 3-row 7-seat vehicle. Power: single motor, FWD. 180 kW and 350 Nm. Top speed is limited to 180 km/h.Ternary lithium battery: 77 kWh for 480 km or 90 kWh for 560 km. Price in China starts at 253.900 yuan ($35.3K).
The MIFA 9 is a big van, and while I don’t love that it’s front-wheel drive (I prefer the handling of a rear-wheel drive EV), just about everything else about it is beautifully done. I have very little criticism to offer.
For one, I think the styling on the outside is nice. The lighting is aggressive, the shape is a bit boxy in the rear, but that offers practical benefits, and the chrome trim isn’t over-the-top (I like the Z-shape the chrome creates in the side profile). The rear wiper looks hilariously tiny, but otherwise, I think the styling on the outside is decent.
It’s really on the inside where the MIFA 9 stands out. The material qualities are excellent, the seats have an almost “woven” look to them, and the simple two-screen layout just works.
But most important is that column shifter, which frees up the center console to be used for wireless charging, holding cups, or whatever:
Down below Maxus did something I wish BMW did with my i3: The put in a partition on the flat floor so you can put things between the front footwells without those things rolling around. Look at all this storage down below:
The legroom in the rear — in both the third and second rows — is simply prodigious:
There’s not a load of cargo space in the very back due to the ridiculous legroom, though it’s worth noting that there is a small frunk:
Visibility all around is quite good; I especially like those little triangle windows that split the A-pillars:
My one grip is that the MIFA 9 doesn’t have much in the way of physical buttons. It has these touch-sensitive HVAC and blower switches:
And then the rest is all either on the steering wheel or on one of the screens:
I’d like to just point out the huge sunroofs:
The heated and cooled seats, whose switches were not in a great spot:
And then this fun hidden cubby on the left side of the steering column, on the dash:
And the camera tech — wow is it excellent:
With a 90 kWh battery, the van promises 250 to 300 miles of range on the WLTP cycle, and with 250 horsepower, it’s got more than enough power even if it’s not exactly quick. It’s not about speed or even handing, it’s about swagger, and the Maxus MIFA 9 has that in spades. Car and Driver agrees, writing:
While it is likely that most German shoppers will prefer to buy their EV minivans from familiar brands, the MIFA 9 illustrates that the Chinese industry can produce something that, while not a traditional luxury car, is a genuinely luxurious vehicle.
I Spoke With Some Reps From A Few Chinese Automakers. Here’s What They Said
So you may have noticed that the Chinese cars that I mentioned above are not perfect, with me pointing out plenty of gripes. My point here isn’t that Chinese EVs are perfect, it’s that they are simply no longer behind western automakers, offering some truly unique designs and features. It’s worth noting that the issues that I mentioned here are not unlike some of the problems American or German EV automakers are struggling with even today. As an example, I drove a VW ID.3. Not only did it feel relatively boring compared to, say, the ORA Funky Cat (with which it shares a 3.5 star Autocar rating), but it had similar brake-feel issues that I felt in the Aiways:
I had a chance to talk with a few representatives from Chinese automakers while in Germany for the German Car of the Year testing, and I learned quite a bit.
“European automakers aren’t so much the competition, because they’re so far behind,” an Aiways rep told me, saying the levels of approval a German company has to deal with are massive. “[Their cogs] turn so slowly,” the representative told me. “They’re dinosaurs.” The representative did tell me that the European automakers, though a bit late, have really stepped it up.
The representative said Aiways focuses on building cars that are not too complicated, and affordable. “Money is a big thing,” they said. Their main competition is other Chinese automakers.
The rep acknowledged that Aiways has learned from legacy automakers, mentioning Alexander Klose, Aiways’ Executive VP of Overseas Operations, who spent quite a while working for Volvo, JLR, and Ford:
We also talked about the challenges Chinese automakers face in Europe, just by virtue of being new and contending with China’s mixed reputation for quality. The Aiways rep said it’s all about getting people comfortable driving the cars. “People say…that looks interesting,” and then they try it, and tell their friends. “It’s a general [China] thing and not the brand,” the rep said. “Listening to people will also get their attention. ‘Look they’re listening to us,’ [they will think].” The representative noted the new U6 and its glovebox, which the U5 did not have.
I spoke with an MG rep, and they also talked about the importance of listening to customers, and about how Chinese automakers are able to adapt in ways that perhaps western automakers traditionally can’t, noting that MG added a rear wiper in just nine months after hearing feedback asking for it. “They want to make decisions quickly,” the rep said, noting that speed is important in China. The rep also mentioned how Hyundai and Kia’s started as brands that people were suspicious of, but now they have great reputations; Chinese automakers could follow the same path.
MG’s PR rep said the U.S. is still far away, but that MG is in Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, and other big pro-EV countries (lately MG has entered Australia, as well, and it’s doing quite well there). They went on to say that Germany is in some ways the competition, as that’s “the country where the car was born,” but noted that “For Chinese, the level of respect for Germany is high… they didn’t want to go there and lose their face.” The MG4 came in out of the gate quite strong, the rep noted, using many of the same suppliers as western automakers — Bosch, ZF, and Continental, for example.
As for how MG was influenced by western automakers, the rep told me: “[SAIC was] going along way back with VW, so the structure is also like VW.” They talked about the joint venture system: “Why should you offer a huge market to just anyone knocking on the door?” The point was to create jobs locally in China, hence the joint-venture system, which involved building cars locally, and locals becoming experts who eventually asked: “Why not build cars ourselves?”
And thus, here we are: With China more competitive in the automotive space than ever, going up against the very Western automakers whom they’d learned so much from. What a ride.
The funny thing about this article is that all the cars mentioned aren’t selling well in China, they are small niche brands and the tech is 1 or 1.5 generation behind the latest models. Not sure if the author been to the Beijing auto show, if he went he would be even surprised how fast everything evolves in China EV industry.
I’ve lusted after a funky cat since it came out. I’m trying to understand things here. So it’s OK for me to go and buy a made in China name brand faucet at Lowes? Frigidaire a/c, made in China, It’s OK for me me to go to Walmart and buy a set of Better Homes and Gardens overpriced bed sheets and area rug, all made in China? But, but ,I’ll be dammed to the burning pits of hell for buying an affordable electric car from China???? Please help me understand why I can’t buy a funky cat? OK, I can’t drive my phone , but it was made in China just like these Hanes boxer briefs (another sold out American brand) hugging my ass and ball sack as I type this.
All those other ships have sailed, and they did so in the era when we all believed that capitalism would inevitably lead to democracy.
You can do whatever you want. China doesn’t play by the rules in any way in terms of fair trade though. That cheap EV won’t seem like a deal when you don’t have a job, your country loses their sovereignty to bad trade deals, and your raw resources get strip mined for the CCP.
Selling your children’s future out for a cheap appliance car that will be rotting in the sun at a Copart lot in a few years seems like a bad deal but I ain’t no economist. Be careful what you buy, who you vote for, and living life from a purely consumer perspective.
I can’t wait for the corporate executives of what is left of the manufacturers in America to realize this is possible, so they can shift even more jobs and suppliers and labor overseas to save costs so they can pump that shareholder price, and get those massive bonuses after laying everyone off. I’m sure once we’ve outsourced basically every job that isn’t corporate management bullshit overseas the economy will be bangin’ and once they pressure the tariffs and regulations to move even more of it, then we can use all those factories over there that don’t have to worry about things like the EPA, child labor laws, OSHA, etc. Who cares if they’re dumping raw industrial waste into the rivers; this will increase the stock price of the next few quarters by a huge margin! It’s going to be so awesome!!!
Realize what is possible? This certainly isn’t possible in China, it’s just a matter of time after moving shop there till they seize your factory and churn your models out with new Chinese automaker badges.
amen, amen, and amen. Corporations are satan and the devil converted to stock prices. may they all go back to hell. future kids don’t need no damm clean water if it messes with MY quarterly profit report! Fuck them all
“And then they wept, for there were no more businesses to plunder.”
glad they are picking up the pace, but I’m only going to consider one after a bunch of generations in my market with local production, still will be rooting for them to reach that point
Fifteen years ago a wise fellow interviewed on CNBC (can’t remember his name) said: “China has central planning by engineers, scientists, and mathematicians and the US has central planning by lawyers. Neither one is good, but by definition we lose”.
So true.
I’d like to live in a 1st world country that isn’t centrally planned, but that doesn’t exist anymore.
“I’d like to live in a 1st world country that isn’t centrally planned…”
Um – There’s Japan, Denmark, Germany, France, Sweden, Norway….
Since then Xi has come to power and is taking down the engineers, scientists and mathematicians a peg or three and put commissars chosen for loyalty back in charge, so it’s a matter of time before things start to slip.
We have a presidential candidate – the one running for a non-consecutive second term – who is openly promising to do the exact same thing here, so whether we stay the course and pass China once and for all as they peak or whether we slip into kleptocracy ourselves is on the line.
For some reason ze Germans manufacturers are not big on frunks. I personally think it is great to have to transport hot food and if one has a drain for fresh caught seafood.
Germany has a lot of things. A long and storied culinary tradition isn’t one of them.
Yeah – German food is the wurst.
Frankly if not for their former empire and the cultures they assimilated, the British could have given ze Germans a run for their Deutschmarks.
Why do you think the Brits were such aggressive colonizers? The East Indies Company was literally chartered to go bring back spices to England.
The English actually had quite the culinary culture.
Which all came to a screeching end during WWII.
I enjoyed British steak and thought I’d bulk myself up like JCVD. All I got was vCJD in the end.
I think the term for it is ‘shite design’.
If you don’t want a frunk then you make it a cab forward or cab over design. If you want a frunk then you don’t make it a cab forward or cab over design.
That being said even a German automaker known for some of the best cab forward vehicles ever made can’t manage to make a cab forward BEV without a massive front end (the ID BUZZ) yet it lacks a frunk.
It’s Shite Design.
A small, shallow frunk to store chargers and adapter dongles is plenty, and if there’s a real spare it should go there too. For actual cargo space I’d rather have it contiguous.
An exception would be pickups where a nice big frunk would be ideal for tool storage leaving the truckbed free for materials being left at or taken from the jobsite.
Living in region I used to be in China a lot pre-COVID and every other month now post-COVID. The rise of Chinese manufacturers and EVs (they have different licence plates) between each visit is really noticeable. I’ve only driven two Chinese cars – an MG ZS hire car in the U.K. which was meh and an LDV Maxus D90 7 seat SUV hire car in Australia which drove like a 2004 Tahoe (good and bad). But I’ve spent a lot of time in Didis (Uber equivalent) and the standard of vehicle improves every visit. Aion/GAC the worst, Roewe or BYD better, lots of others in between. In common is the awful quality of the pleather, none of the drivers say the HMI is any good (lots of touch screens, poor native nav) but there’s usually lots of space, some clever design touches, and a reasonable amount of non-black paintwork and interiors.
The Funky Cat is genuinely cute and I like the interiors having color. Nothing really of interest to me, though if there was, I still don’t see me buying a car from a Chinese company. Nothing against the Chinese people or that I don’t think they can build something decent when they want to, more how I feel about their government and I don’t trust the information gathering. Now, if they make an affordable, attractive, unconnected, no-nanny (or bare legal minimums with the ability to switch them off and leave them off) basic sporting EV coupe with comfortable seats and designed for an indefinite lifespan through serviceability and durability, I can overlook almost anything. Fortunately or unfortunately, I don’t think there’s any worry of having to do that.
what do people think the Chinese government is doing with data that is worse than what american companies are already doing with your private information?
you think they are going to use your gps for assassination coordinates or something?
also, i am unaware of a “good” government that manufactures cars.
I don’t know what they do with it—I don’t understand how this shit is worth so much money to anyone, but they all seem to want it. I keep reading it’s about better directed advertising, but judging by the dumb shit I see for ads that I have no interest in, either I’m such an odd person that the algorithms are all stumped or there’s some other bullshit going on with what they do with the information and whatever that might be that they don’t seem fit to want to tell us can’t be good.
Whatever the case, someone profits off it and I’d rather that not be a government who is a hostile economic rival and that has massive slave camps assembling these things so we can go, “Wow, look how cheap they are! I wonder how they do that!” and so some simpleton can answer: “Oh, it’s because everyone in the West is so greedy and they’re just screwing us!” when the real answers are more like: they can do it by using slave labor, strong government control that isn’t beholden to the citizenry, and government subsidies the government hopes they can maintain until the competition is gone, ceding them the market and because of greed in the West both in terms of gouging where they can and in handing the Chinese that massive leap forward in quality that they needed to compete on a global stage that the Western companies are now reportedly wringing their hands over. Sure, the article points out how the Chinese made larger strides in EVs because they chose that route due to there not being much ground to make up there and it’s an expanding market—which is smart and they did that on their own—but the rest of the engineering, like chassis, safety, and so on was handed to them by the West in return for short-sighted profits, which is typical, especially in the US. If I had the option in terms of time and money, I would build a car myself from as much local parts as possible, like I do some other things that I can do that with (or I just do without), but I’m stuck having to buy a car from someone else and, while all governments suck because they are made up of people and people suck, there are degrees of suckage and I choose the greedy fool over the abusive slave owner.
I would not be surprised to learn that they have a very, very complete dossier on everyone with a computer or a cell phone. And no, I am not being paranoid. Underestimating China would be eminently foolish.
You’re 100% being paranoid.
I mean, let’s not pretend Ford or other automakers are cranking out top notch reliable products for a competitive price.
With all the Chinese things I buy I always feel I get what I pay for.
Can’t say the same when I owned Ford’s or Chevy’s
Questions remain about data being sent to China /CP and about long term reliability (and parts availability), especially if things are being developed at high speed
In terms of parts availability.. just look at Fisker https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/fisker-ocean-totaled-over-door-damage-due-to-lack-of-parts/ manufactured by Magna.
One thing the Chinese has right now is they scale quick. eg Xiaomi managed to crank 10k cars in the first month.. https://electrek.co/2024/04/29/smartphone-builder-xiaomi-rolls-10000-units-of-its-flagship-su7-off-assembly-line-in-just-32-days/
I can see why Musk is worried.
Worldwide, cheap EVs will do wonderful things for carbon output. The big 3 American automakers can adapt and match these, but they often need a kick in the pants first.
With enough automation, I don’t think labor costs will be the major issue. I think supply chain management & shipping costs for materials + finished vehicles will end up controlling the costs.
The big 3 (? is Stellantis American?) American automakers could adapt and match, but it will be very difficult under the Wall Street style of capitalism, where quarterly profits trump all else and management levels are bloated.
Yeah man, I hate to say it, but I think it’s the big two. We lost one along the way.
I think about safety concerns, but then I remember how awful some of the vehicles we can already buy here do during safety tests.
I’ll say this: they aren’t afraid to try stuff. That’s something lots of carmakers are lacking these days. I’d love more choice of interior color and the shifter on that U6 is WILD.
My biggest takeaway is the brands are so fluid over there you could easily get in a Fisker situation where you have an unsupported vehicle.
I liked the Reddit post that was linked – I’m very interested in real world experience especially real world range estimates.
I think some of the super cheap stuff might sell in the US but no way are buyers going to go for them in the 40k+ range. There’s just too many known-good options there. From reading this and Tycho’s articles, I get the impression that the Chinese buyer is just very different from the average American buyer.
All that being said, I remain in favor of keeping the Chinese offerings at arm’s length using tariffs for the foreseeable future – there are just too many issues that come from letting them dump cheap EVs here. I also remain in favor of more articles like this because the design choices are just so interesting.
If the BYD Seagull were available here in the US, the legacy automakers would panic. And the threat it poses would be their own fault, because there existed the possibility that the legacy automakers could have offered 150+ mile range EVs at sub-$20k pricetags in the 1990s if they’d have pursued the tech and mass produced it. Instead, GM killed the EV1 and pushed the Hummer, and the rest is history. Without Tesla, to this day, we probably wouldn’t have EVs available at all.
It absolutely pains me to say that Elon Musk has done a lot of good to this world.
If he kills of Twatter it’d have been even better.
In many ways I don’t understand the value proposition of EVs for the poor in this country. You seem to be advocating for these cheap EVs for the benefit of the poor in this and other comments.
This group, nearly universally, doesn’t have easy access to charging where they park their car. Perhaps this is a hot take, but I think if you don’t have access to charging where you park your car each night, you shouldn’t own an EV. Nevermind that even the public charging stations are a wasteland of required apps backed by credit cards. How is the most underbanked of our population going to benefit from that? Even worse, in some places relying exclusively on public charging stations actually costs more money than a fuel efficient ICE car.
Frankly, if really wanted to help people get into cars that can’t currently afford them, I’d be more in favor of government subsidies for automakers to design dirt cheap ICE vehicles with a focus on repairability and simplicity.
There are many rural poor people who live in homes and trailers, for whom if the cost of the payment on the new EV was less than the amount saved on gas+maintenance for their used 20-year-old clunker ICE, they would come out ahead. Especially having a warrantee. With a small enough battery pack, using a 120V outlet would be sufficient to maintain a full charge for every time the car needed to be used.
As bad as cars used to be, the fact that a car was new and had a warrantee meant a lot regarding the ability to get to and from work on a daily basis, when that car could mean the difference between keeping your job(s) or not. EVs offer the prospect of cost savings by the operator not having to pay $0.10/mile on fuel for their 35 mpg 20-year-old shitbox, nor for things such as oil changes, belts/spark plugs/pulleys/hoses, engine rebuilds, ect. A simple LiFePO4 battery can be made to last for decades.
I’m also in agreement regarding the need for cheap/simple/repairable ICEs as well. We also need lots of fuel economy to go with that(60+ mpg). Two sides of the same coin.
I hear everything you said, but I was also just reading an article about how EVs chew up tire because of the added weight. I’d like to see an article explore the real world cost of ownership other than just initial cost and energy consumption, but long term maintenance and frankly battery replacement when that comes due.
Added weight is the consequence of increased battery requirements from the use of inefficient platforms and body designs for a desired amount of highway range.
Today, the battery and motor/inverter technology is such that an aerodynamically streamlined EV with 200+ miles range at 70 mph could weigh hundreds of pounds less than a comparable ICE-powered car, for a given amount of peak horsepower.
The auto industry is still stuck in its paradigm of planned obsolescence and refuses to build such a machine for public consumption. That is why the U.S. auto industry is vulnerable to being supplanted by China.
EVs have a long road to climb before they become an option for folks who rent. And even a rental house if it doesn’t have car charging set up (which how common is this) regular wall outlet 120 volt charging is a joke-per my brother did this for awhile with a used Tesla, plugging it in overnight to a wall outlet netted about 8 miles of range. Which is all to say I think you bring up a good point, many of the poor especially in urban population centers would have a hard time benefitting from cheaper EVs until charging becomes much faster AND charge stations become much more common.
It would have to be subzero freezing to only get 8 miles overnight. A Telsa gets 4-5 miles per hour on a 120v outlet.
Possible I remembered the amount wrong- fwiw this was an “older” Model S with at least 60K on the clock in an old house (hard to say how updated the electrical service was)-but even if I am misremembering the exact range a night’s charging netted him, I know his home charging was not enough to keep him from needing to go to a Tesla charging station a few times a month.
This why PHEVS are ideal for a lot of people. I can just barely charge my Volt from 0-100% on 120v overnight in my rental, but I have to make sure I plug it in immediately when I get home. If I don’t manage to do that, it doesn’t matter, as I can still get a decent amount of charge and not have to worry about running out of range.
Agreed-I wish more manufacturers had offered more PHEVs sooner.
Nobody seemed interested. I think the Volt is a perfect example of this. The car was announced around the time GM just got bailed out, and was used as a political tool by both parties. It got mired down with all that crap. Plus, the public is STILL confused about the concept of a PHEV. I have to explain about 15 times how my Volt can both be an electric car and a conventional hybrid. After explaining that, I’ll still get the question, “WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IT RUNS OUTTA JUICE??”
Right, I mean I’m a car nerd (duh) so I always thought the Volt was a cool concept.
Best commuter I’ve ever owned! I like to joke I’ve got vehicles on both sides of the spectrum. An EV and a big block Chev!
Do you have the first or second generation? I feel like the second generation was a better car overall but then got axed pretty quickly. I think they would have some more Volts if they just made it a small crossover since that’s what seems to sell. An Ultium based/derived Volt with a smaller battery.
Second gen. They took away some of the goofier stuff (capacitive buttons, shifter from space, etc), added more range & HP, while wrapping it all in what I think is a pretty attractive (if not slightly generic) body.
The Fisker situation is a good one to bring up. With so many new manufacturers popping up, and releasing models at a rapid pace, what’s it look like when you need parts five years down the line? I can walk into a VW dealer and buy/order just about anything I need for my 10 year old Sportwagen. Will they still be making parts for a model that was replaced only a couple years after its introduction? And will all of those manufacturers even be around in 10 years? Looking at the early 20th century there were countless brands building cars, but only a handful actually stayed in business for the long term. Will that happen in China?
No one knows which brands will still be around in five years. There are hundreds of car brands in China, and most will be history before too long. A hybrid Toyota makes much more sense for most people.
I’m pretty sure foreign made automobiles have 100% tariffs in China, having to pay double for a non-Chinese automobile drives a lot of Chinese automobile purchases in China.
I really like the looks of the ORA Funky Cat. It reminds me of some sort of small, European RWD car. And the interiors of the Maxus and Aiways U6 seem like nice places to be.
I like that the Ora Funkycat is a no-nonsense design. No plastic cladding, no fake vents/grills, the wheels are the correct size for the application, ect. It will age well, in spite of being relativly inexpensive.
As an old gen Xer I remember that this just happens. People crapped on Japanese cars then they got good, then Korean cars, and on and on..
I don’t think you’ll have the crappy phase with chinese cars, they’ve been patiently getting better and better at making their EVs while the USA keeps them banned; once this ends, they’ll be ready to flood the american market with cars that will represent as much bang for the buck as Toyota did when the american market realised they’d become very good cars (or, more recently, Kia/Hyundai). Chinese cars recently entered my domestic market and the few we see around do not seem shitty at all.
And no disagreement that they would flood the market with cheap cars but thinking long term….Japan came to the country with a focused effort to build reliable (early Toyota’s/Lexus cars are legendary as we all know) cars, develop a dealer network and play nice. Korean market did it a bit different as they started with a rocky start of cheap/less than reliable but, also created a long term dealer network. Both of these countries are allies with the US; we play by the rules of the game, mostly.
The Chinese gov’t doesn’t seem to be wanting to play by this same rulebook. So I almost always agree with the cheap/good cars BUT the problem is the macro level stuff (where most people I don’t believe think about as much. And we’re talking 10-20 year plan. The US has a big target on it’s back for many reasons but we can’t just go and throw hands up and go “yeah, let’s just shake up society and see what happens”.
It’s a risky proposition at this point…..we have to protect some things…
The US has had 25+ years to take the initiative. The Chinese offerings still aren’t present here, and the US automakers could put out inexpensive EVs if they chose. Instead, GM has killed off the Bolt, just as it killed the EV1 off 2 decades prior. If they don’t offer affordable EVs for the masses, then that is a deliberate choice that they made, and if the Chinese flood the market with affordable EVs for the masses, the US automakers deserve to face the consequences of their actions.
That’s the disruption part – all of their employees don’t deserve to get the brunt of layoffs/downsizings/etc. That’s not fair to our society…..but yeah, I know at some point – survival of the fittest; always be moving forward
That said – I do also hate that US automakers abandoned small cars. I still get depressed looking at domestic lots and just seeing waves of trucks and SUVs
It would be cheaper to give all of those employees massive severance packages big enough to retire on, than it would be to bail out the car companies when they fail.
The issue is one of unrestrained greed. There’s never any accountability for the people at the top. It’s a pattern that repeats.
No arguments on the unrestrained greed.
There’s a symbiotic relationship, though, between auto/govt. Auto is a great resource that can be used in times of defense or mass assembly. COVID is the most recent example where Ford was able to spin up lines to help with ventilators.
In our society, employees are always endangered by stupid (or greedy) management. This situation is no different.
The chinese aren’t technically allies to the USA, sure, but economically I would have to disagree – they’ve been playing the capitalist rulebook for quite a while. Ever since they became the biggest player in consumer electronics manufacturing, they accepted the economic rulebook and have been working hand in hand with basically everyone, with quality standards also going up as a result. Also, american companies have been getting into their domestic market with success and way less political resistance than anyone would’ve expected. I think the economic relationship between the USA and China is way more symbiotic than people are often led to believe in the USA.
China is the world’s biggest exporter. They have as much to lose as the USA with global instability – and from an outsider’s perspective, sometimes it really does look like they’re more interessed in global stability than the USA.
I like your viewpoint on this (I’m not being snarky, I really do. And that’s what I’m hoping where we’re all going. I try to stay positive after my decades on this globe, but sometimes it’s tough. And the news cycle certainly wears on me.
Western companies fell for China’s strategy, hook, line, and sinker
Absolutely they did, but it was either that or they couldn’t play at all
Anything for a boost next quarter right!?
The execs who approved it are probably enjoying the view of the beach from the house their bonus checks bought.
Shareholders would have sued if they had done anything different.
Detroit’s problems predate China
As an old economist, we were trained to focus on what IS and less on the SHOULDS.
I personally think David wrote an excellent article on what IS the current Chinese EV market in Germany (Europe). I didn’t get any feeling from him for what it SHOULD it be. Nor what it SHOULD be in the US. Cars are now more than ever a worldwide thing that nobody can deny.
What ever your personal view of what SHOULD be our approach toward the Chinese government, electric cars and China in general is your business and you can write your own reviews on your own site as much as you want.
Ultimately, this is right. It’s their site.
I do wish that a bit more skeptical and less credulous approach was taken.
I wish more editorial space was dedicated to the downsides of these cars coming to the West rather than so much focus on how cheap they are. Combined with the opinion pieces lamenting the high costs of cars, one could plausibly connect the dots far enough to say that the authors are rooting for Chinese cars to come here. Certainly I haven’t read anything explicitly to the contrary.
There are issues in the world that are bigger and more important than the price of new cars. Normally this site doesn’t shy away from them, but on the Chinese car issue they disappoint me somewhat. This is not the same thing as German, Japanese, or South Korean (all close allies!) imports taking market share from domestics.
I will take that under consideration. I feel like we try to balance out: How cheap they are with.. why that could be bad. Especially in TMD:
https://www.theautopian.com/how-mexico-could-help-china-demolish-the-u-s-car-industry/
I appreciate the reply.
Thank you for saying that.
In this age of immediate “on-line” access to commentary about how the world should look, some sites can easily turn very ugly very quickly and just into shouting matches. (Just look at college campuses now)
I do believe that ALL of the writers for Autopian truly care about people first. Not just cheap cars. It’s a fine line between news and entertainment.
Cars are our common thread why we come here to read their work. Nobody wants to have ideas rammed down their throats by other readers.
I’m very grateful that they have allowed us the opportunity to comment on their work. This is their job and avocation too. We need to be respectful. We can disagree of course. But it’s easy to get lost in the rhetoric.
Depending on how this were put in place, I can agree with you. I do not in any way want to see a change in David’s writing. He is an engineer who is genuinely excited by clever design and execution, and I see no value in trying dampen that. Same goes for Tycho and his articles.
What might be interesting would be a new voice, one who is dedicated to business choice impacts in the market, and discussion what ifs and believed impact on different countries and their domestic auto businesses. It doesn’t need to be US centric specifically, but obviously would have a great deal to do with the US market. Something more in depth than the Morning Dump coverage.
Yes, I’d love to read this.
Just to be clear though, my opposition to Chinese entry to our market is about more than just its effect on domestic industry, although that’s significant.
I make jokes about spyware to keep my comments lighthearted, but maybe they aren’t quite so funny. It really made an impression on me recently that Byte Dance executives came out loudly against accepting *billions* of dollars to divest TikTok. The Chinese government sees significant value in entering our hearts and minds beyond mere profit motive. Anything built by a Chinese company with a computer chip in it is automatically suspect to me.
Spyware is one of the big reasons I do not want a modern car of any kind, regardless of the country of origin. It doesn’t matter to me which country’s government or corporations are conducting the spying, so much as the fact that it is being conducted at all. I don’t consent to any of it, regardless of what the carefully-worded legalese says in the documents pertaining to the vehicle’s purchase.
I agree it’s distasteful regardless, but for corporations or the US government, I have recourse under US law.
There’s a huge difference between an entity here looking to sell me something and the CCP using my data for whatever its nefarious ends are.
Do you really? Consider that Edward Snowden exposed what the Telecoms were doing in conjunction with the NSA more than a decade ago, yet it still continues, while Snowden is in exile in Russia, of all places. Jewel vs. NSA was thrown out of court, because the the defendents invoked the “states secrets privilege”.
There is functionally zero accountability when large institutions engage in such egregious behavior.
The very fact that we know who Snowden is, that we have media outlets willing to publish what he exposed, and the fact that you and I can have this discussion about it speaks volumes to me about the difference between us and China.
I would never say the situation we are in is perfect. All I’m saying is it could be much worse.
“… but for corporations or the US government, I have recourse under US law.”
Do you really?
Because I’m guessing you clicked “Yes” at the end of that long, long scroll of T’s&C’s which indicated you accepted Big Corporation’s Terms and Conditions before you enabled your device/app/account/car.
And that your will-work-for-a-settlement lawyer isn’t as good as the phalanx of salaried Corporate Lawyers who created those T’s&C’s.
Wondering when the lawsuits against GM selling data to US Auto Insurers is going to happen?
My guess – Never.
Because T’s&C’s.
Most of my friends think I’m nearly tinfoil hat. I am concerned constantly about how much of my life can be investigated online. The amount of data modern cars move about the drivers is a real concern to me and influences what I will buy in the future. I’ve turned off every tracker I can on my phone. I use VPNs. I refuse to use tiktok.
So yes, I agree that data is also a reasonable concern when discussing full spectrum “costs” for any vehicle.
It would take no effort at all for the Chinese government to get Byte Dance to tweak the Tik Tok algorithm such that it shows users in the US videos that are more favorable to the Chinese government and less favorable to our and our allies. Keep in mind the Chinese government has already banned almost all of the US apps like Google, Facebook, X, Instagram, Youtube etc. and their internet only shows Chinese users the history China wants them to see. It is really like 1984 over there.
Edit: Nope, not the place for that.
Deleted. Not worth it.
Don’t feed em.
To be clear, I’m not an advocate for opening up the borders for cheap Chinese cars, even if there is some level of climate benefit.
But that’s not what this story is about. This is a look at Chinese car tech, with some context describing how these cars got this good.
I’ve heard great things about the $11,400 BYD Seagull.
I, for one, would suggest a nice $11,000 Miata instead. But it’s up to you…
I love the Miata NB. My main gripes with it are that they require gasoline to run and their aerodynamics are atrociously messy.
That said, a custom designed hardtop that tapers back to a Kammtail, a partial grille block, a front end from a Miata Italia kit, a bellypan with rear diffuser, side skirts, and rear wheel skirts could all go a long way to possibly getting the Miata’s Cd value below 0.25.
It will cost another $11,000 minimum to convert that Miata into an EV of 150+ miles range, and only if you do what is mentioned in the above paragraph(stock bodied, that budget would only allow enough batteries for 100 miles range). You could have it weighing similarly to the stock ICE using batteries from a Tesla Model 3. Doing this with careful component selection, could have it performing like a 302 V8 swap.
So nice post may I point out 2 things?
1. They allow comments and actively pursue them. It the interaction that produces clicks and generates ad dollars.
2. It isn’t your site either maybe if you want it different you start your own site block opposing viewpoints and really just get ignored.
I can’t wait to get one of these off of Temu in a few years.
or Costco, Harbor Freight etc.
So. They passed laws and programs that allowed them to steal intellectual property and block outside markets from having fair competition? If the USA or any European countries did this there would be cries of isolationism, dictatorship, nazism, the president is worth than Hitler and Stalin combined. But now yeah China.
I mean, yeah, the PRC is an xenophobic dictatorship engaged in genocide at an astonishing scale. Also, this is a car website.
Yes and the article was about CHINESE CARS AND HOW THEY MANAGED TO GET A BIG PERCENTAGE OF THE CAR MARKET. And I posted the facts the article kind of glazed over. I want posting about the Fortune Cookie Market you know?
I think they actually dove into those facts pretty thoroughly, they just didn’t follow them up with the rant you did.
Look, I’d like there to be laws that companies can either do business in Xinjiang and Tibet or the USA, but not both. But not every article is a policy article!
Okay you do make valid points. And I am more suspicious than most but the writers here I feel are really nice folks and unlikely to thing negative about anyone. But as opposed to a rant I feel it is more in depth research. But I amnot offended if you disagree.
Okay but the US corporations also still entered into partnerships under their laws and programs, and I’m not sure that intellectual property laws are on par with the Holocaust so maybe pump the Nazi brakes a bit there boss
Please feel free to reread my comment with an open mind. At no time did I accuse anyone or any country of being nazis or nazi like. I said if the USA passed similar laws the administration would be accused of it.
Don’t forget Detroit being lazy. GM is good at giving 90%
The Chinese shit is a correction for everyone else gouging and getting rid of their more affordable cars.
Ohhh, now I see why my comment a few days ago talking about what stealing, murdering scumbags the CCP was……cushy paid for junkets to China for the staff. Way to go Autopian!
No one went to China for this. And it would be irresponsible to ignore Chinese automakers while they capture more and more of the international market, whatever you think of China.
You were banned for being racist and also this was a trip to Germany that we paid for ourselves.
Hardly. I was not banned, just edited a bit. Oh and saying the CCP are a bunch of evil scumbags is NOT racist, so nice try. Thanks for playing the role of the usual stooge.
Whatever your intention, what you said was racist. If you want to write that the government of a country are evil scumbags, as you did above, that’s fine. We have written about Chinese slave labor before:
https://www.theautopian.com/thousands-of-cars-are-stuck-at-u-s-ports-due-to-a-part-linked-to-forced-labor-in-china/
But your insistence on saying it in a way that was indistinguishable from hate speech is not gonna fly here.
I agree the site and its employees have always been pretty fair to me.
yes, and other car-making counties DEFINITELY aren’t murdering scumbags; especially america… NO murdering done by the united states.
lol.
And Henry Ford was definitely not a Nazi sympathizer or Anti-Semite…
GM definitely did not provide vehicles to the Nazis – and their CEO at the time definitely did not admire & support Hitler – while being compensated $32MM for their German Opel factories being bombed during the war.
Definitely nothing to see there.
So the Aiways is selling cars from a company that may be shuttered already or in the near future? Why would someone buy a car with no product support? Since modern cars are all screens and textured or piano black plastic, I am not moved by any designs that are just different examples of the same recipe. My co-worker had a Volvo S60 B5 today. It looked cheap, the screen interface was terrible, and half the center console was used for a start “knob” and PNRD and the parking brake button. All for $60k. The fake wood strip did not fool me that it was supposed to be a luxury car. Since Volvo is owned by Geeley, it seems very on brand for a Chinese car.
The truly incredible thing and why they are catching up so quickly is the speed at which Chinese automakers are able to iterate. I think it was BYD that stated they could develop an all new vehicle from scratch in about 18 months. That is nearly unheard of in the industry. If you can go at that pace and each vehicle they make is just a little bit better than the last it isn’t hard to see how they have come so far so quickly. Western automakers will ignore Chinese automakers at their peril.
Geez, if that 18 months is accurate, that is nuts!
What happens behind the “factory” walls is not known by those on the outside.
What is that blue G-Wagen looking thing visible out the windshield of the Funky Cat?
That’s the only thing in this sea of poorly-built spyware that piques my interest.
Ineos Grenadier! I think you’d be surprised with modern Chinese cars that some of them are actually pretty well-built spyware these days.
Considering that per the article itself, the modern, non joint-venture majority Chinese auto industry is less than a decade old, and has only a couple of years of exposure to Western markets/standards, I’ll stick with my priors on quality until proven otherwise.
I simply don’t think there’s been enough time to prove the durability/reliability of any of these.
Yeah, fair. I’d love to have a long-termer from a non-JV operation. The Chinese-built Buicks that are here seem to be holding up.
And Lincoln is now building the 2024 Lincoln Nautilus in China and exporting it to the U.S.
It will be interesting to see how well it holds up.
Not having driven any I couldn’t say. However not having driven any longer than a press event I’m not sure anyone outside of China can say. And of course if someone from inside China says a negative they are arrested and killed after the trial. They remind me of an episode of Hogan’s Heroes where Major Hochstetter scheduled the trial and the execution at the same time.
Well they do sell in places like Germany, Australia, South Africa, Brazil and whatnot. Which sources tell me are not China. So maybe those people have said a thing or two towards quality?
Read V10omous comment above it is intuitive and I’m not rewriting because yskipped it. it.
Great wall among others has been selling in Australia since the late 90s IIRC. Comments on the different generations show a decided increase in quality.
Many countries have had Chinese vehicles for at least 10-15 years. Ask them how quality has improved, or not.
Chinese 20 passenger maxivans are starting to become more and more common in Bolivia. Long term quality is not equal to Toyota of the 90s, but definitely better than Ford cars of the 90s for what it’s worth.
Almost nothing compares to Toyota in the 90’s. There are still loads of 4Runners and Camrys of that era in my neck of the country.
I picked Toyota off the 90s because, they are the epitome of reliability that Toyota still banks on. I don’t think the brand new Toyotas are living up to their reputation; still good, but not like they used to be.
The cheaper cars among the Chinse offerings need to be allowed into the US to light a fire under the ass of the current manufacturers that are allowed to sell here. The US automakers could have been doing something similar to this in the 1990s, and deliberately chose to foist the expensive disposable SUV/truck/crossover paradigm on us instead. That paradigm is going to collapse, regardless of whether the Chinese are allowed in or not, not just because consumer tastes eventually change, not just because increasing numbers of people are being priced out of it, but because from a resource standpoint, it is completely and utterly unsustainable.
Many countries have neither domestic auto industries to protect, nor fossil fuel industries to bend over for.
Cheap BEV offerings are going to kick ass and take names. If Western manufacturers do not wake up they will easily be replaced in many markets.
What a great idea! Let cheap electric cars built with slave labor destroy even more industrial bases…….How about we dont let them dump them on the West. And it is not “fair market” to do so. Chinese workers do not enjoy any of the rights and high quality of life that Western workers do. Want that destroyed? YOU are part of the problem.
So non-Western countries should erect trade barriers against their self-interest, just so Western automakers can carry on business as usual?
Nobody owes anyone market share. Innovate or be left behind.
Hey are the Chinese Auto Workers in a Union? Hey UAW I have a great market for you to delve into. Just write your Will prior to going.
This x1000
Oh bullshit, just the typical “fuck what people want, the government needs to force things on the market that it does not want” crap. If consumers did not want SUVs and crossovers the car makers would not build them. Dumping cheap Chinese crap (built with almost slave labor) on the US market below cost (because the CCP gives them cheap labor and other incentives) could destroy or damage a vital industrial component to our economy,…….something the CCP wants.
I personally won’t buy a Chinese-built car because I’m not going to buy something built by enslaved Uighurs. But Toecutter is literally saying that the government should allow things it isn’t currently. That’s the opposite of “forcing”.
america also uses domestic slave labor (literally, if you’re unaware now is a good time to educate yourself); now of course both are abhorrent, but it’s funny how only china is well-known for it – i am *so* over the china talk.
There are prisoners who work. They get paid for it, but it’s a very, very low wage. They also volunteer to do it, and usually get time off of their sentence for good behavior and working (“good time/work time credit”). In Texas, they are not compensated for their work, which makes them slaves. Bad on you, Texas! A quick look at corpaccountabilitylab dot org will give you lists of companies in different states that use prison labor – there are dozens of them. But on the other hand, people have to do some pretty bad stuff to make it to the penitentiary, and if they learn how to farm tilapia or refurbish electronics, then at least they will be a bit more employable when they get out.
Those jobs paying prisoners pennies per hour used to pay working-class Americans a living wage.
Oftentimes, reading comprehension gets in the way of furthering the agenda you started out with.
There’s lots of poor Americans that would love to be able to purchase a new car with a warrantee in the $10k-15k range, but there are zero options available. The U.S. automakers deliberately abandoned this space and made sure it went away. The ones driving the new SUV/CUV/truck market are almost entirely the wealthiest 20% of the population. Everyone else has to buy used, and even used cars are getting too expensive for the least wealthiest 50% of the population to make the payment. There’s no shortage of TikTok videos of people complaining about their $500+/mo payment on a used shitbox with 15X,XXX+ miles on it.
The USA also uses prison labor in components of vehicles, the big 3 OEMs in the US also use Chinese slave labor in vehicle components, and US located plants from foreign manufacturers such as Hyundai even got caught using child labor. The Chinese are far from the only culprit in this.
Further, vertical integration of the production/design of cars/components by companies like BYD is even more significant a factor than slave labor and subsidy for their low prices.
Further, the US automakers are ALSO subsidized by the US government is many different ways, but notice how that doesn’t necessarily lead to lower prices for the consumer, even though the consumer’s tax dollars subsidized the car they are buying.
We need actual competition again. That is what drives prices downward. I’m not willing to believe the U.S. manufacturers cannot compete given the level of talent present within them.
I doubt the American carmakers were ever thrilled to be in that space, but CAFE requirements meant they kept cranking out Fiestas and Neons and Sparks. Selling enough of those cheap, efficient cars at breakeven prices (or even a loss) allowed them to sell profitable Tahoes and Expeditions and Durangos without paying fines. Now that BEVs, hybrids and tiny engines with turbos that are tuned specifically for EPA tests are on the scene, the carmakers don’t really have any incentive to invest in those cheap subcompacts.
The current CAFE requirements were largely written by the automaker lobbyists in order to reduce the impact of fuel-hungry SUVs/trucks/CUVs. CAFE is now weighted based upon vehicle footprint, and the rules were seemingly written in such a way so as to keep small trucks off of the market altogether.
That’s why getting rid of the Chicken Tax isn’t enough, because even if we did the Footprint rule would likely keep most of those smaller foreign Trucks and SUVs already in production and otherwise able to be sold in the US market out of the US market.