This car is a mess. Redundant worthless systems that serve no purpose but throw check engine codes. Basic jobs like swapping a sway bar take 10 hours. Why? Because someone in Stuttgart back in the mid 1990’s must have said “Why not?” Well, if I ever get to talk to them, I know the answer!
[Ed note: We teamed up the legendary Bill Caswell with Vredestein Tires, Hella and FCP Euro to turn an S210 E-Classe into a ski car we call Ski-Klasse (get it?). – MH]
Before we begin, you need to remember that I’m self-taught when it comes to cars. I was a finance guy. Fancy suits, an MBA, and crazy complicated bond deals. So I had to learn cars from books. I did have a local shop owner and racer, Leo Franchi, teach me all the good stuff I couldn’t find in books. Thank you Leo! So when I tell you how much I hate the design of this Mercedes, please remember I don’t really know anything.
Well, that’s not entirely true. I know one thing for sure: If I owned a car company, I would make my engineers — not a team of engineers working together under a lift with one guy doing most of the work — perform all the routine AND long term maintenance on the design before it’s finalized. I would make each one take the entire car apart by themselves with hand tools in a small garage. I guarantee those engineers would design things differently going forward. I’d probably also make them build a race car version before the design is finalized too. Imagine if the E30 and the E30 M3 were conceived hand-in-hand? Anyway, back to our mess.
Ever build something knowing that you will never ever take it apart? That some poor bastard on other side of the world is going to have to deal with it long after you’re done? I’d still try hard to make it easy. But Mercedes? Nope. They’re like “ohhh… that looks way too simple, can you design it so they have to drop the entire rear subframe and all the suspension just to install something simple like a sway bar?” But they didn’t stop there. Every part of the car got the “Why” treatment.
“Those engine mounts can be changed by anyone! What are you thinking Dieter? Bury that top bolt so deep that no ordinary mechanic will ever get it undone! Then we will engineer a special wrench that we can sell them. This way only the chosen ones with our special wrench can take this car apart!” Our car is 24 years old so now we can just order the Baum version through FCP Euro.
This would normally be enough to piss off any DIY mechanic, but Mercedes took it a step further by locking down all their information. If I need a part for a BMW, I go to www.realoem.com and get an exploded parts diagram of every system with all the part numbers! I can even type in a part and find out what other cars they came on in case I need to source a used part fast. And after all these years, my head now organizes all car parts and systems into the BMW subgroups.
Screengrab, realoem.com; laptop, mahod84/stock.adobe.com
Click on a category and you get exploded parts diagrams. Click again and it drills down into the part numbers. When I was new, I also used this to understand how some the parts fit together. Now you could hand me any bolt from an E30 and I’ll tell you where it came from… assuming it’s still the original bolt installed at the factory.
Screengrab, realoem.com; laptop, mahod84/stock.adobe.com
There is nothing like this for Mercedes, or at least not for guys like me. Mercedes has a proprietary parts software($$$$), which is nightmare when I’m trying to understand all the rubber tubing they ran across their V6 (and the whole chassis). Luckily we have friends that I can text in the middle of the night with stupid questions (Thank you FCP Euro), but it’s still really annoying. Kind of like building a jigsaw puzzle without access to the cover photo. Although, I’m starting with a completed puzzle so its not that bad.
As a side note, I get why BMW always ran inline six’s. The marketing team and journalists will tell you it’s silky smooth and has a perfect torque curve, but after working on a V6, I’m pretty sure it’s more about the plumbing and wiring. For a rear-wheel drive car with a long nose, a straight six is so much easier to install than a “V” shaped engine. Has to be cheaper too. I understand that some cars only have room for three cylinders before the front bumper, but this Mercedes had so much room I was able to move the radiator back eight to ten inches.
Why build two sets of headers? Two cylinder heads? Two fuel rails? Two pressure regulators? Two sets of vacuum lines for each head and one giant intake manifold that covers everything useful to a mechanic? Plus the entire perimeter of the engine is now surrounded by hot headers compared to inline where one of side of the engine bay is hot and the rest carries fuel, air, and oil [Editor’s Note: And you can share more components/manufacturing processes with inline-fours. -DT] — it makes so much sense to me. Mercedes used to run straight six’s too. Until someone asked… Why?
Redundant Check Engine Lights
How do you think Mercedes measures the air entering an engine? Every car I’ve played with uses a MAF sensor (mass air flow) and I know others use a MAP sensor, which measures the pressure of the air in the manifold. But Mercedes? Why would it ever choose one system over the other when it can run both!
Why? I have no idea. It’s a naturally aspirated V6. Does it run smoother than my BMW with just a MAF? Maybe. But the Mercedes also has softer engine mounts so I doubt that cushiness is the result of the engine runs better. I can’t see how dual metering systems makes the car more reliable, because neither is a back up. If either sensor fails, the car runs poorly. It’s the same reason Lindbergh only used one engine on the Spirit of Saint Louis; why have redundant failure points? I’m surprised Mercedes didn’t include two check engine lights; the company doubled down on everything else.
I’m picking on the engine, but it’s not like one system is messed up and it’s a funny anomaly. Nope. Every system on the car is bizarre. Except the interior. The interior is perfect. Well…. except for those few buttons on the dash. But the dash fits so well together and is solid compared to my other cars. No plastic tabs that break when you disassemble it. You could take the interior out a dozen times and it will still fit back together and it’ll look new. After years with BMWs, I’m seriously impressed by how much time and money Mercedes invested in areas I don’t normally care about. It’s too bad it didn’t unleash the interior team on the engine; it would probably get covered in leather, but they might have ditched all the rubber tubes!
Vacuum Hoses For Door Locks?
Which leads me to the vacuum lines. Didn’t Mercedes know these would be a nightmare in twenty years? Copper wires don’t wear out and they work off the standard battery that the runs the rest of the car, but this was too simple for Mercedes. Instead of wires, they ran rubber tubing through everything to the door locks, the rear trunk, the gas filler lock, and even some seat adjustments in the W210. So what’s the big deal of running some rubber tubing next to the wires used for the windows? Well, the rubber tubing doesn’t run off the battery. So Mercedes needed to install an air pump next to the battery that can suck and blow (create pressure or a vacuum) to operate the different devices. Look at the size of the pump and the various lines coming out of it!
Why run two systems right next to each other when one system could operate everything? Please tell me it’s not about the noise. Meaning: Is all of this because Mercedes doesn’t want the door locks to make a sound? In case someone approaches your car and you want to quietly lock the doors without them knowing? But seriously, why?
What happens if you want to use the locks or vacuum systems after the car is off? Does that pump stay on with the key off? How does that not drain the battery as the lines get old and start to leak? What about that safety thing where your doors automatically unlock after a crash? It looks like Mercedes hid more air boxes and switches under the front fender to address those issues.
It’s such a mess. Almost feels like Mercedes’ cousin owns a vacuum tubing company and they’re doing them a solid.
The Mercedes Has Been…Problematic
Why do I care so much? I’ve tried leaving four times for the West Coast to drive this car on snow and never once made it to the highway. Each time I got a check engine light and all four times it was because of something vacuum related. The final failure (maybe the fifth?) was the MAP sensor itself. It sort of melted. The whole backing came apart and oozed out the sensor. I naturally tried to RTV it all up hoping it was just oil degrading the plastic over the years. It worked for a day or so while driving around town, but the moment I pulled out for the road trip… it was “Check Engine” time.
When we first got the car, I was like let’s change EVERYTHING rubber on the engine. I do this to my racecars because it’s hard to tell when an old rubber line wants to quit. But that’s an easy process on a BMW. I just open the engine tab and select vacuum and order every part number. Or I go to visit FCP Euro and grab a vacuum and cooling kit like this one for an E36 M3:
None of this exists for older Mercedes. FCP Euro and Danny Kruger are building these kits out so we can fix our old cars at home, but without the exploded parts diagrams, it’s almost impossible to figure out what needs to be ordered in advance. Even since we started our project, they’ve put up more kits. And now I kind of want their ignition kit…because Mercedes used 12 spark plugs on our car. Why? Because they could I guess. It’s just more stuff to fail in my eyes, but I can imagine the engine burns cleaner with two spark sources. Or maybe their cousin owns a spark plug company too?
Do Enthusiast Cars Lead To Great Support Or Does Great Support Lead To Enthusiast Cars?
All these issues ordering parts makes me wonder about the chicken-and-egg of enthusiast cars. Did we turn certain brands and models into enthusiast cars because we could get the information and parts? Or did the industry respond to our demand and build out the system? I remember buying all my parts at the dealer (or out of the back of a magazine before the internet). But even then, BMW’s were easy to understand and get parts for. Same with my friends who built Hondas. Is that what drew us to build those brands over and over?
Is that why I can only think of two Mercedes builds on Instagram? There’s the FCP Euro 190E build based on the DTM era. And there’s an ancient one built for the Gambler that transitioned to Hooptiecross and even completed a lap of the Mint 400 this past march!
I’m sure there are few others, but it’s bizarre how few Mercedes are built for fun compared to BMW, Porsche, VW, and even Audi. I blame it on the vacuum lines… or at least the reason why someone put them there in the first place.
While frustrating at first, I’ve now fully embraced Mercedes design philosophy. Everything I did to this car can be classified under WHY? Does a wagon need a hydraulic hand brake? Not really. But it is 189 inches long and will need to turn quickly at slow speed on loose surfaces so maybe. Does the handbrake need to be hidden in the center console and operated by the cars original cell phone (see below — more coming soon!)? Nope. But Mercedes did such a good job with the interior that I couldn’t really drill into the center console like some dirty drift car.
Did I need to need to hide all the switches and a volt meter inside the dash? Of course not. I could of mounted a switch panel below the dash like most of the other builds I see. But why do that when I can get all Mercedes on the design and fully embrace the Why? Its also why there’s a CB radio hidden in the dash and a secret switch that activates another totally unnecessary system that I’ve always wanted, but never needed. Until now. More on that surprise system later, because the results weren’t as dramatic as I hoped! I wanted a lot more chaos. So much chaos that when activated, the passenger just looks over and asks… “Why?”
-
We’re Working With $500 Rally Legend Bill Caswell To Make This Mercedes Wagon A Beastly Snowmachine: Project Ski-Klasse
-
Here’s Everything Wrong With Our $4,500 Mercedes E-Class Wagon: Project Ski-Klasse
-
Why BMW Rally Legend Bill Caswell Is So Confused By Our Used Mercedes Wagon
- Here’s What It’s Like Cutting Up A Mercedes With Rally Legend Bill Caswell: Project Ski-Klasse
I have a W208 and that stupid vacuum lock worries me, my B5 S4 has the same system. Maybe older MB’s have a larger DIY community, but for the most part when I compare MB vs Audi\BMW, there is a lot more info out there for Audi\BMW.
Is this what you are looking for:
https://nemigaparts.com/cat_spares/epc/mercedes/1/210/
Spare parts catalog Mercedes EPC online. I even found it via the website you mentioned. on the top of the page http://www.realoem.com it refers to other brands catalogs.
you’re welcome.
Given the prevalence of W123 bodies still chugging along deep in the bush of Africa and other
wilds, thousands of miles from the nearest dealership I think your answer is simple: You bought the wrong Mercedes.
Let’s be honest here. NO company has as much parts support as BMW. There’s no Real OEM for any other car company as far as I’m concerned, and for that reason I’ve been a brand loyalist.
I’m curious what you mean by this?
“Real OEM”? (Edit: ohh, it’s a website!)
Porsche, for instance, has their Porsche Classic parts (www.porsche.com/classic). They stock and make most parts for all previous Porsche cars. One could buy Porsche branded parts for about anything from a 356 to the latest 911.
Most people I know use AutoAtlanta for all of the parts diagrams for Porsche cars. But there are many other Dealer and Parts suppliers (FCP Euro is one of the best!!)
In order to not pay the Porsche name tax, Bosch is a huge OEM provider, or Meyle, TRW, Uro, etc. depending on the part, and it’s not hard to find OEM parts.
Supposedly over 2/3 of all Porsche cars made are still on the road. So I don’t think parts and repairability has been a problem.
So, while BMW may be great, Porsche is too. This isn’t a German car problem, this is a Mercedes problem.
If they were in my price range when I was shopping, a Porsche would have been a no brainer. There is a reason there aren’t many cheap ones available anywhere ever. Nowadays even the undesirable ones are fetching good money in ok shape with their gremlins sorted.
Whenever I catch myself asking “why did they design it that way” I realize most decisions are made from the assembly aspect. It is designed for the average assembly line worker to assemble as quickly and as cheaply as possible. Clips go into holes but don’t come back out, sealing washers are captured on the bolt (the worker can’t forget it, but the user has to replace the bolt.) They don’t care if the user can work on the car, and they are going to cheat the dealership tech on labor time should any warranty work be required.
There’s a really good opportunity for someone so inclined to replace the vacuum system for a steam system. At least that is, if you’re fully invested in the whole steampunk scene.
Nothing makes driving more exciting like the chance of a good scalding if a steam line lets go!
Hi. We’re the people who fixed all that. Or at least as much of it as we could. And I can tell you why Mercedes did it: because the engineers were designing the best possible performing (not performance) car. The ideally engineered car. That’s why every screw was a different size, so it was ideal for what it did, so if you had to fix the car, you had to order special sets.
Do you want to know how long it took for us to get it through their heads that ease and expense of repair is part of how well the car performs?
(We also fixed the cupholders. Epic effing struggle.)
My mom has a little SLK and I can’t tell you how many times I had to take apart the center console because it’s made to open 3 different ways and gets jammed shut.
Re: vacuum lines
Sometimes you carry shit systems just because you have experience with them, not because they’re good. Better the devil you know, you know?
I’ve designed a few components based off 40 year old designs just because you know what’s gonna happen once it goes into production.
I’m an OEM design engineer. At the time I was designing the prototype of a my first production turbo engine I was also installing a turbo on to my drift car in the evenings. The one I designed was much, much easier to work on (and the mods I made to the car were production level reliable). We aren’t all monsters.
You’re right: every design engineer should have to build the thing they design. I’m either there installing it myself or at least close enough for the tech to punch me if it goes wrong. We’re not all like this though, and it really shows.
We had the same policy at my previous job. It made you think twice before locating cables and sizing access hatches. That’s a healthy thing to do as I know a few engineers whose motto is “not my problem”
Kearney &Trecker (a legendary old machine tool manufacturer) used to require their newly hired engineers to work in machine repair for a period of time before they were allowed anywhere near a drafting table. It shows; they still have a devoted following among manual machinists, even though they were bought out long ago.
Mercedes used to give free access to their EPC. It was fantastic being able to look up and cross reference parts. Then you had to be a member of MBCA. And then you couldn’t get it for free at all.
Regarding the door locks… there’s a reason they call the thing under the back seat the Central Pneumatic System Equipment pump. It does the locks (pressure and vacuum), rear headrest release on the sedans, and the orthopedic seats if so equipped: http://eva2.compu85.net/w210/contents/electrical_pse.htm
MB introduced the bi-pressure pump with the W124. The older W123 cars used engine vacuum for everything… central locking, the ignition switch on diesel models, the climate control system, and transmission shifting. You could get a situation with a leaky door lock where the engine wouldn’t turn off and the HVAC blower wouldn’t run if the doors were unlocked.
If you ever want “Peak German”, ask yourself this: How many fuel pumps does the 2004 V10 TDI Touareg have? Hint: the answer is higher than you were initially thinking 🙂
I have a diesel W123. Diesels don’t make vacuum, so there is a vacuum pump run off the accessory belt. That’s crazy, why do it that way? Even the ignition switch is vacuum operated. If your vacuum pump is bad or there are leaks, the car won’t turn off. There is a big “STOP” lever in the engine bay that cuts the fuel.
Someday I’ll go through it and fix all the leaky actuators and or lines. I have a bag of golf tees in the glove box to block the lines going to the leaky parts. So I currently have defrost or off on my climate control, and no power locks.
EDIT: 15 fuel pumps!!
How can it be more than one per cylinder I am so confused
I can’t believe my crazy guess of 6 was wayyy under!
I get curious and interested about why cars are sometimes designed and built the way they are and sometimes have bizzare design decisions.
Those things started to make a lot more sense to me when I started thinking about cars as the end result of a global manufacturing system (parts supply contracts, manufacturing, etc) that builds lots of different vehicles, as opposed to thinking about each model in isolation.
Stuff like the swaybar requiring a subframe drop is likely from a combination of “nowhere else to put it” and “Easy to put together at the factory”
For the vacuum powered features, a few reasons might be: Not being able to source enough electronic actuators at similar cost, they already have vacuum actuators they were using across other MB cars so they did a band-aid fix, maybe the electronic versions weren’t ready yet, etc.
Don’t have an explanation for the MAF+MAP though. I think Honda ran a similar setup. Maybe some of the engine or emissions features still needed one but some other aspect of the ecu runs off the other?
I mean, Mercedes Classic even looks like RealOEM.
I’d never heard of RealOEM (never owned a BMW), but it looked so useful I went searching and found a VW equivalent: https://volkswagen.7zap.com/en/rdw/
That one’s definitely going into my bookmarks
I wonder how many modern luxury vehicles are running systems like driver assist/autonomous with vacuum lines? It sure seems like so many are being piloted by airheads.
Haha. That’s pretty good!
I think the vacuum operated locks and seat adjustments are just because that’s how they did in 1963 when the 600 came out and they never changed. The rest is German love of complexity. Stuff like this makes me appreciate the delightful simplicity of a BMW Airhead motorcycle with no vacuum lines, no power operated anything, no cooling system and no electronics apart from the voltage regulator and the aftermarket ignition box.
So true! I love my E30’s so much after playing with other brands. That was my thought on the Vacuum lines too. But at some point a new designer engineer had to be like we dont have room or budget for a pump, just run a wire. Meaning there has to be some reason. I think.
When I briefly worked at Ford they argued over the costs of the most ridiculous little parts and systems long before the design was ever finalized. It’s like the Vacuum line division was some old Mercedes employee you’re told to leave alone bc you might get fired if he gets angry. There was guy like that at Ford in the old engineerng building. I bet Mercedes had one too. haha.
That’s 1000% it. So many sacred cows you can’t question around certain people, who are almost always boomers, who are almost always afraid of change.
Look at the size of the rear wiper on that thing!
It’s Hella huge.
And vacuum powered!
There’s no way…. I’m going downstairs to pull the cover. If for any reason they found a way to pneumatically power wipers…I’m pulling all of it and making it electric. The locks too! So over vacuum lines!!!
In 20 years of playing with 123 & 126 diesel Mercedes, I never had a single problem with degrading rubber in their vacuum lines. The cars ranged from 20 to 38 years old. Now, actuators failed—blend doors and an occasional lock actuator, but the lines were delightfully reliable. I can’t say the same for the wiring insulation from that era, though.
as far as figuring out parts, I used the old Mercedes Shopforum, which, last I looked, is Peachparts. Then I bought the FSM on cd.
I do feel your pain, though. The very first thing I had to do to my first 300SD was a rear wheel bearing-for which I was quoted $500 in 2001. Welded up a tool, and it took most of a weekend. Replacing a failed ignition switch was a wonderful introduction to their love for complexity, too.
So true!!!! and don’t tell David and Jason… Im going to cut it off and put on dual rear wipers!!! hahahahaha!
You have made me feel better about my Audis. Seriously, thank you for that. 🙂
Nothing like having to remove the windshield to swap a rear sway bar!. /s
No joke on BMW 2002s you have to remove the windshield to replace the heater core. So dumb lol
No I understand the weird cuts and welds in my friends old 2002! I bet someone just cut it out one day!!!! wow!
My time to shine! Modifying Mercedes sucks so much ass people pay me to do it for them. Though I consider myself a w211 aficionado, I’ve been under my fair share at this point. And I’ve been around the sliver star squad for awhile now. And the biggest thing preventing budding builders is no one buys a Mercedes to get under it. People really fear ruining their Mercedes, as if it some mythical mechanical creation. A few other things though:
A.) Mercedes official star service videos suck, and their method of doing anything in overly complicated and often unnecessary. Though there is no way of getting around dropping the subframe to replace a sway bar, so sorry there.
B.) Parts exist, but they tend to be from like Renntech and Kleeman, so pretty expensive compared to say a 350z. Needswings ain’t bad and quality is p good.
C.) Often ecus are closed loop, and difficult to tune. For example your m112. You can take the supercharger off a c32, SRT6 etc. add a solid pully. Bolt it to the top, and it will run pretty well. But not great. And no one knows how to get it great, which has hampered this becoming common.
D.) More builds exist, but Mercedes builds tend to not get traction online. Example being drift E55 and some dude in California has a couple manual swapped drift amgs.
E.) Star sucks and MBZ are annoying to diagnose, also finding the right part can be challenging. For example, I believe there is five different rear spring/bag options for w211. (Airmatic, Airmatic AMG, SLS, coil, and wagon coil from factory. But also Arnott rez deletes.
F.) After awhile Mercedes’ start to make sense and that is when you know you’ve gone off the deep end.
If you want to hear my 95 Theses on accepting the Sliver Star, I will write it. MBZ can be built. It’s just harder and more expensive, and probably slower then doing the same to a BMW
You have no idea how many times I tried to remove it before I was like are you kidding me? I need to drop everything? This can’t possible be right and sure enough, there are posts everywhere about the absurdity and cost for people to pay a dealer to install aftermarket bars! But man I tried!
Ohhhh ever tried removing the high pressure power steering hose from the rack without moving the front sway bar?
I’ll check out Needswings for sure. I think we’re going to build most of what we need or adapt it from other models or brands.
SUPERCHARGER WHAT?!!!!! Ok I want to try this! I bet I can rig a system that will make it run a lot better. But Im going to need a Ma Max intake though the hood!
WOW! on the Drift E55! But guess what? That’s FCP Euro too! An employee, but it’s like they have more Mercedes builds than anyone in the US! https://blog.fcpeuro.com/our-dapper-drift-meredes-benz-e55-amg-is-featured-on-speedhunters
It’s crazy how many variations Mercedes has on its models. There are like 30 engine codes for the w210 depending on where it was sold. maybe not 30 but I was shocked how modular their chassis driveline options are. Kind of cool. Kind of a waste too… I wanted to delete our SLS but it so awesome to be able to fully load the back and not change the ride height or angle!
Yeah I started to appreciate Mercedes a little bit and quickly realized I was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome! I was starting to understand and sympathize with my captor! Hahaha!
Dude I’d like to hear it! Like over a beer! Hit up Matt about the writing, I just do what they tell me! And it is without a doubt, a lot more expensive and 2-3 times as much work to build a Mercedes instead of BMW. I was horrified by how long everything took. The sway bar should have been an hour. Maybe two… It seemed like every day I feel behind by a half day. I never ever go a head of the build like I do with BMWs. I was always slow, late, frustrated, and behind. But Im kind of excited I tried. I learned so much about how similar cars from similar companies can look soooo similar underneath, but somehow one is easy to fix and the other is a nightmare.
And stay in touch! I have no idea what’s coming next but I might need help!
So the supercharger. So far the agreed way to do it. Buy the c32 AMG supercharger off eBay and look for one that comes with the pump/cooler. For water run an external intercooler and make a entirely secondary system. I believe it’s a 72mm solid pulley for about 13 psi. The idler has to be changed to six rib. Then rig up an intake. Where things become dealers choice is running the c32 injectors. Some say it improves idle, others are mixed. The two best forum post on how to do it are on a crossfire and m-class fourm. People will tell you that your going to blow the engine because the K has forged pistons. They are wrong, no one has blown a m112 as far as I’m aware. And there is a m112 turbo swapped rwd Honda Prelude in Sweden running like 21 psi. You will likely blow a diff, though. I think the ML is the only 4matic one, and that dude has had problems.
I think what kills me about MBZ is just the erratic mix of standards. Like they will have a hex 10 right next to t-55, beneath a triple square m10. If you didn’t need the entire tool box to do literally anything, would speed up the process.
The nice thing about a Benz, is when you actually get it right. You feel like the smartest dude on earth.
Also Arnott rear spring kit is pretty solid, my personal preference. But SLS has been problematic for me. Though I recently swapped H&R front coils on to the bases from Arnott for a nice static low. Which won’t help you get to the ski hill, but looks sick on the correct rim. Add some B6 rear and B8s front and the old wagon starts to feel pretty sporting.
PS Modified Mercs on Facebook is probably the best collection of the community.
There’s one of these wagons for sale in my neighborhood and I was thinking, “Hey the Autopian is working on one of these, it must be a good car! I should check it out!” … and then I read this article.
You should definitely do it. Don’t listen to Bill!
Nah, I’m now solidly convinced to find a BMW. Specifically, a I6 non-M.
Here’s the weird part. If you dont really care about the car being tired and old feeling you can probably drive that Mercedes w210 around the neighborhood for years with only little weird failures.
Our car was 150,000 miles(I think, I never really looked) and 24 years old. It still had so many of the original parts on it. Front control arms for example. I noticed a few new parts but not many.
The problem is I like to run my cars pretty hard. So things like motor mounts that are fine for the neighborhood, don’t like being sideways in pendulum turns! So I had to freshen the whole car and it was a ton of work and not that much fun. I also hate maintainence and typically upgrade except there’s not many upgrades so it was just maintenance.
But I wasn’t going to drive cross country and go on crazy adventures, we probably could have left it alone and limped around resetting check engine lights replacing or taping uo vacuum lines as needed.
But I wanted this car to be awesome! So I went throught it and I think thats why I hate it. But if its a good price, go get it, someone will buy it from you for good money if you hate it because they’re aren’t that many left.
As for the BMW inline 6. It’s so simple. So easy to work on. Tons of parts and a huge depth of aftermarket oem parts. So you have numerous suppliers for the same part and if you dont need the best supplier, you can save some cash. But always get Lemforder for the ball joints or the Meyle HD ones.
And non M is good, but it depends on the model. And oddly I love the E36 M cars. They’re just a cam’d and bore’d 3 series but with stronger bigger parts on the suspension and brakes. Although they seem to be kind of expensive now. Go get the wagon. Just dont modify it and dont drive it too far from home! haha.
Me and my E36 323i sport agree.
Yeah, it’s a bit cosmetically tired and it’s on 183k miles, and I really need to get round to fitting those new bushings for the gear linkage… but damn it if it doesn’t make me smile. Working on it is so easy too. However, the 316i I used to have was even easier. A 4-cylinder in an engine bay big enough for an I6 meant I could genuinely stand between the block and the radiator if I lifted out the fan cowl.
Some part of me considers an old Mercedes every now and then… but after reading this I’ll stick to BMWs.
Yes, as someone who tried the MB, I won’t ever get another – I stick to BMWs now. Oh, and my one MB that had a straight six in a engine bay big enough for a V8 still had access issues, not only on the front, but on the sides as well.
The N55 post 2014 is great for the price but if you can get a B58 do eet
C4 Audi Chassis is superior. Look into them, great deal compared to E34/39 imho.
They’re probably a lot easier to find cheaply. And they look cool. But I feel like my friends went through a set of control arms a year in that era of Audi
Having a brand name sponsors make a lot of projects more viable, so YMMV.
So true! Having FCP Euro on board has been amazing in terms of knowledge and help! But I still have to take the car apart and do all the work! My mileage definitely varied!!!!!
I second this. This article does Mercedes a favor. They don’t want us poors around anyway.
So glad to get an update on this car. I was just thinking about it the other day and figured I had missed an update or two. I can’t wait for the next update.
It’s my fault! I had some serious family stuff come up. Plus this car was a nightmare to build. Everything took twice as long as a BMW. But wait till you see what’s coming! And don’t forget I keep suggesting absurd adventures for when it’s done done! But either way, I think its so cool that The Autopian has their own project car!
No worries man. I know how that goes. I’m just glad I didn’t miss an update. I can’t wait to see what you guys end up doing with this thing! Just please don’t take as long as Project Binky…
https://media.tenor.com/lGU448RCh84AAAAd/84years-its-been84years.gif
“I’m sure there are few others, but it’s bizarre how few Mercedes are built for fun compared to BMW, Porsche, VW, and even Audi”
Hrm what is it about all those brands? They all have something in common, don’t they, what could it be, oh yeah
MOTHEREFFING MANUAL TRANSMISSION.
Same reason why I don’t give a single care about any Mercedes since the 190E. Going to go climb back up into my tree while the zoomers “well aktually me” about their .0005 faster shift times. I don’t care, bros. They suck! Automatic transmissions belong in trucks and vans.
I suggest selling this pile and getting an Audi UrS6 Avant. WRC bred engine, QUATTRO, great aftermarket w unlimited power potential, comes with a locking rear diff, and the rear armrest folds down to expose a rubber sock that allows you to stash wet skis in the boot without dripping all over the heated rear seats.
It’s the ultimate ski wagon, not this garbage. Oh yeah, also has a manual trans so it’s enjoyable to drive.
Nothing wrong with manual transmissions in trucks and vans as well.
As a gentle reminder, this is a site for all enthusiasts, including people who enjoy automatic transmissions. We champion all car/motorcycle/plane/train lovers, even those who have unpopular preferences! 🙂 Everyone on staff loves manuals, but we aren’t going to shoot someone down for liking autos…
Matt chose this project car as part of a theme of making a modern version of an old Volvo rally wagon. Unfortunately, Bill and I found out that this Merc is…it’s almost as if the engineers had contempt for whoever would have to service it. One weekend, we spent an entire day wrenching on the thing and in the end, the car barely drove under its own power thanks to the goofy vacuum-operated everything.
So true! And everyone was hating so hard on this auto that I was afraid of defending it (not really but I did think about it for second). But its such a good transmission. So easy to make it rev to redline before shifting!
I haven’t really figured out how to keep it at high rev’s while enjoying the driving in auto mode, but I can easily select each gear because of the crazy overthought Mercedes shift gate thing on the center console.
It took me a second to get comfortable manually shifting the auto, but it’s so easy to select gears as needed. And there is a manual swap option from a junkyard if we get out voted down the road!
I mean, I get you’re trying to be inclusive and supporting everyone by saying that, but that isn’t the real world. In real life when you see a brand new sports car that comes in both, and people walk up to the window and see only 2 pedals, car guys are always bummed out.
For pure FUN and engagement, manual > auto.
For towing or heavy traffic, sure, CVT or something, whatever.
Metrics do no matter. Experience does, and manual transmissions offer a superior experience compared to the automatic in almost every case.
I think the disconnect here is the assumption that every “car guy” wants a manual transmission, which just isn’t the case. My wife considers herself a car enthusiast and she has only ever owned automatics. We have readers from all over the carsphere (at least a quarter of them are women) and I can guarantee that not all of them care about manuals.
As we’ve all learned over the years, what’s pure fun for us is not pure fun for others. I find tons of joy in driving Smarts, most people do not. David loves driving rusty heaps and Jason willingly subjects himself to Yugo ownership. There’s no shortage of people who don’t understand why we do this. We understand the misunderstood enthusiast!
What I’m getting at is there should be no shame in buying an automatic.
Those bags don’t fit boards, class warfare. The ultimate ‘ski’ wagon actually gets you to the parking lot. Kidding, but am I? Best ski wagon I’ve had was a caprice classic with snows and weigh over the rear axle.
Learned to drive in a 89 caprice classic. Took it sking in Pennsylvania, New York, and Ohio. My skis fit in the trunk perfectly. What a great car!
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a43738102/1982-chevrolet-caprice-classic-by-the-numbers/
oh thats really funny!!!! I ski too and mess with my board friends every time they need my poles to push out of of slope runs! And constantly suggest Alta or Deer Valley…. oh thats right. you’re not allowed to go there… hahaha. so funny.
So true about the manual. Not sure why I didn’t consider it – probably because as you pointed out, the aging enthusiast population has moved on to paddles and I guess I forget why I like some cars so much!
My friend had an Avant. He was fixing it almost every weekend it seemed like! And as you point out, the systems are really cool, but maybe the whole package not so reliable? Does it have rear facing rumble seats?
My 1992 BMW 325 that could barely leave the driveway in the snow also had the ski pouch in the rear armrest. And you are right. This isn’t the Ultimate Ski Wagon, This is Ski Klasse! Our Mercedes is a lot classier than the rowdy locking diff, WRC bred manual. Plus we have the Apre Ski rumble seats!
If I had my way, we’d get an old AMC Eagle and jack it up on 33’s like some mini Icelandic exploration wagon!
What year avant? Audi’s reliability went down the tubes starting with the B5 model, but the C4 chassis is still “old school german” and basically just an updated C3 chassis, which was developed in the 70s/early 80s. If you start searching for UrS4/S6s, you’ll find that most of them for sale have over 200k miles, some even 300k miles, without being apart. They’ll never be as reliable as a Honda, but I think the battle testing of the Audi 20v I5 Turbo during WRC days did a lot to make the powerplant super robust. I’ve had more issues with sunroof relays and HVAC stuff than drivetrain related issues.
Here’s a video I did on swapping the turbo to an NOS RS2 turbo, giving me the closest equatable thing to an Audi RS2 you can get, excluding importing one:
https://youtu.be/f3qcEqrfCTE
yes! save the eagles.
So tell us how you really feel about this
Ohhhh there’s a video…. from when I was super upset with how they put the car together! One day it might be really funny!
The Chrysler LX cars are based somewhat on the design of the W210. This part rings especially true:
I swapped my rear sway bar out on my Magnum SRT8 to the police spec bar. You definitely have to drop the cradle out, but not fully. You can drop it enough that the cradle bolts are out as far as they can go while still holding the cradle to the vehicle. That will give you juuuuuust enough room to sneak a small ratcheting wrench into the cavity to loosen the mounting bolts.
That’s what I figured out too… But I needed to drive it the next morning and was looking at the brake lines and self leveling suspension lines and was like how far can I really lower this thing? I guess just enough!
The Chrysler 300 / Dodge Magnum / whatever were developed when the company was “Daimler – Chrysler. As I recall the chassis was a modified Mercedes (previous generation at the time?) E-Class
If a car can be this complicated and reliable says a lot about the german national religion of engineering things meticulously.
I am surprised realoem.com lasted so long (since the early 00s). In general I appreciate BMW’s approach to commonality vs Mercedes’. Also BMW doesn’t use Bosch systems as much as Mercedes (to me that’s a huge plus). Why not do a e39 Wagon instead?
Probably because I can build BMW’s in my sleep and lots of people build them – it might not be that interesting even though I could build it well. Or Matt just wanted to see me cry while wrenching on a car!!!
I want an AMC Eagle! Or like 4 more of these Merc wagons! One for every style of driving!
As a previous driver/owner of an E320 of the same model run, I can say that I feel your pain, even though I never had to do the full teardown you have. I also didn’t have the phone, so the handbrake is news to me!
Part of the design makes me think it is because it is a 90’s car, when Toyota pouring money into overbuilding, and I guess Mercedes was pouring money into overcomplicating.
The 90s was a glorious time for automotive engineering, as digital engine management and power MOSFETs slew the underhood vacuum-hose spaghetti monster, freeing up engineers to work on weird stuff and feature-itis.
YES!!!!!!!!! Except they kept the vacuum-hose spaghetti monster at Mercedes! and I kind of want that as a t shirt now! Someone draw it!!!!!
In the religion of the flying spaghetti monster would the vacuum line monster be the lord of underhood Hell?
So pastafarians believe that unlike heaven, which has a beer volcano and strippers, hell is very similar except all the beer is stale and the strippers have STDs
I had to find the phone on Ebay! If I had more time, I could have easily integrated bluetooth into it so we could use it as a phone too!
Definitely not worth the effort right now, but maybe you have some underlings that would like to take a stab at it?