I’ve spent the vast majority of my adult life driving as many new cars as possible every year. Hundreds and hundreds of cars. But until eight years ago, I’d never purchased a new car. That changed with the acquisition of an Ice Silver 2016 Subaru Forester Premium. If “love” is what makes a Subaru a Subaru, then I got shortchanged, because I like the car but haven’t loved the ownership experience.
The joke that’s been bouncing around my head is: Get a Subaru so you can have a Toyota driving experience without the Toyota reliability. While I haven’t been stranded by my Forester yet, I’ve had to replace so many parts of the car and deal with so many small annoyances in my first few years of ownership that I’m pretty much over it and looking forward to trading it for something that’s either more fun to drive or cheaper to operate.
This is only my experience, of course, so your mileage (both literal and figurative) may vary. But I’ve talked to enough other Subaru owners that I don’t think I’m alone.
Why I Bought A Forester In The First Place
One of the limitations in the way I’ve mostly reviewed cars is that I get a car for about a week and then it moves on to someone else. I can tell you what it’s like to live with a car for just long enough to get the radio presets right, but I can’t tell you what it’s like to live with that car for many more miles. It’s a good argument for checking Consumer Reports, a publication that buys its cars from dealers and puts real miles on them.
I didn’t do that. It was 2016. I was living in Brooklyn. My wife and I had just brought a tiny Hardigree into the world and, because of my wife’s job, I’d found out I was moving to this mysterious place called New York-outside-of-New York City and so I needed something dependable, safe, and big enough to schlep a new human and all the stuff you’re told a new human needs to thrive.
Did I actually want a Mazda CX-5 with a manual? Yes, but those were rare and expensive at the time. I was considering a C-Max Hybrid just because C-Max Hybrids are roomy and weird. On my list was also the Subaru Forester. I’d had one to review a few months earlier and both my wife and I thought it was good at everything, even if it wasn’t particularly great at anything. My old pal Tom McParland also offered to help and, based on my list, thought I could get the best deal on a new Forester somewhere in New Jersey.
He was correct. For just $25,000 and a low 1.9% interest rate, I could get a brand new 2016 Subaru Forester Premium with a sunroof and the cold weather package. It was an anonymous silver, but it was extremely affordable. The dealership experience was pretty good and very quickly I had a new car.
The Honeymoon Period
For the first two years or so of Subaru ownership it was pretty smooth sailing. Nothing major went wrong, it mostly needed oil changes and tire rotations, and our local dealer was fine. Was it Lexus-level of service? Nope. It was fine. Like everything about the car.
Even the driving experience was just fine. The boxer motor is a little noisy, but it was faster than the CPO Honda Civic we owned before and way zippier than the old Volvo 240 wagon I bought as a project car. Did I love the CVT? No. Almost immediately, I had to adjust to the car always feeling slightly wrong at low speeds, with the car’s transmission trying but always failing to find the ideal ratio to maximize performance and efficiency.
Handling was not Mazda sharp and the ride wasn’t CR-V soft. Was it nominally better in the snow than other cars? Yeah, maybe. In spite of the CVT, it sucked fuel around town (about 22 MPG), which is mostly where it was being driven. It was a little better on the highway (27-28) but, again, it couldn’t hold a candle to our old 2006 Honda Civic LX, which I feel like I put gas in twice in eight years.
Where the Forester does better is in general usability. It’s big and roomy, outsizing the Mazda CX-5 or the available Ford Escape, making it easier to load-in the kiddo and all the kiddos gear. Something about owning a Forester makes you want an REI membership, so we did that and bought camping gear and took the Subaru camping.
We even gave the car a name. Subie! We road-tripped her to Canada and all around New York. Good miles and great memories.
Here Come The Problems.
Based on my own experience and after talking to other Subaru owners, every Subaru is at least a little misaligned roughly 10 minutes after an alignment and for the rest of its life. The stock Yokohama-brand tires, therefore, wore super fast. This is something a lot of Subaru owners complain about. Given that the stock tires only lasted about three years, I assumed an upgrade to some Michelin CrossClimates might improve this.
They were better performers but still wore faster than I’d like. In year seven of ownership, at around 70,000 miles, I had to put another set of Michelins on and they’re already starting to wear at the edges.
In year four, Subie’s front wheels started to judder at speeds over 55 mph. That required swapping out the passenger lower control arm, at great cost (I did it at the dealer and it’s not covered on the warranty), and then, not many miles later, it happened again and I had to swap the other lower control arm. Both times Subie needed a realignment.
At under 70,000 miles I had to replace both rear wheel bearings because they were screaming. This time I skipped the dealer and went to my mechanic, who informed me that this happens to most Foresters he sees of this vintage and, oh, yeah, I’ll probably need to replace the front lower control arms if it hasn’t happened yet.
I’ve had to undergo multiple recalls, including for the old 3G modem in the vehicle. The most annoying one is for the mat airbag sensor in the passenger seat, which had to be replaced (the tech also left some parts in the car which I found when I vacuumed). It still barely works and often gives me a false reading if I so much as look at it wrong. The battery went early, though the new one seems to be holding up better (although there’s a class action lawsuit about that, which I think is my second battery-related class action lawsuit.)
What Finally Broke Me
One of the perks of Subie is that she doesn’t have complex headlights or other parts. Everything is theoretically replaceable without taking the car apart.
This includes the headlights. I know this, because I have to keep replacing headlights. I had two go out on me at the same time, at night, last year. I replaced them and, big surprise, it’s been less than a year and the passenger side went out again. This, too, appears to be an issue that Subaru owners are used to dealing with, though some owners haven’t had issues.
Is the alternator throwing off too much voltage and cooking them? That’s my guess, and I’ll have to confirm that when the driver-side light goes out any day now.
Why I Wouldn’t Do It Again
This is the only new car I’ve ever purchased and the only car my daughter knows, besides our project cars. Parting with it will be difficult because it does hold a lot of precious memories. Also, new cars are expensive and I don’t want a car payment.
I understand that new vehicles are still vehicles and they still have wear items so it’s foolish to expect that nothing will go wrong and nothing will have to be replaced. Unfortunately, the tempo of replacing wear items and other necessary fixes have been way above what I expected when I bought the car. In the roughly 7.5 years I’ve had it I’ve spent around $7,500 keeping it running on top of the cost of buying it.
That seems high to me given that I’ve spent a lot less on previous, used cars that I’ve owned.
If the car were stellar. If it made me happy diving it every day. If it looked great and made me feel great I’d maybe feel different. It would maybe be worth it. I just can’t imagine spending money again on a new Subaru. I drove the Forester Wilderness and I liked it, but it wasn’t that much nicer than my car, had the same CVT issues, and I can just imagine how expensive it would be to keep running.
After driving the Corolla Cross Hybrid, I’m suddenly thinking about the ease of Toyota ownership.
I had a 2014 Forester Limited 2.5. Earliest form of your vintage. I recently traded it in for a 2023 Sportage PHEV, probably a year sooner than we should have, but I was personally tired of the Subaru. We bought the Subaru used with 24k on the dial when we had our 2nd kid. As a car…it did car things fine. Here’s my list of issues, from the top of my head, so not exhaustive.
OEM Tires…they sucked. I got them on a used car with 24k already so whatever. Gave me a reason to begin swapping out winters/”summers” (just LRR All-Season)Alignment…hahahahaha it was NEVER right…wait…it always pulled to the right.All 4 corners had failed wheel hubs at some point. I did the work the second time. It’s a rust belt car, so never again.”Leather” seats were toast pretty quick. Steering wheel peeled away whenever the sun came out.The head unit was out of date in 2014 and never ever worked well with bluetooth. System really can’t handle a second phone.The vehicles computer couldn’t handle two sets of TPMS sensors, so my winter tires never got connected.The oil consumption was bad, albeit, not bad enough for the recall/new short block, but bad enough that I’d check the oil level religiously 2-3 times/week (this was one of the big issues I had with it. I was tired of dealing with this.)MPG was exactly as you mentioned above. I tracked every mile when we owned it. It progressively got worse. We were fueling up 1-2 times/week.The lower control arms luckily went bad at the same time, so when we had the shimmy you mentioned above, those were replaced at the same time.Last tune up I did in July of 2022, there was enough oil on the plugs and boots for me to say “this isn’t good, but not bad enough…yet” (This was another major reason I advocated for getting rid of it. Didn’t want to be forced into a bad situation)The last two summers, we had to replace all the A/C components.The window sprayer components needed to be replaced because the sun, even though hidden from the sun, wrecks things.I went through 3 batteries from 2015-2023. Three.The 2.5 was a dog. The CVT made it worse. Unless you’re driving on a slight decline, the car simply was gutless.
That’s what I have off the top of my head. I live in Indiana. I’ve received a behind the scenes tour of the factory in Lafayette. I think highly of the company. This car though…it sucked. It did car things. It was easy enough to work on, as I did the vast majority of work on it. Brakes and tune-ups were easy enough. Diffs…easy enough. Most work, easy enough. But the vehicle was a compromise in the first place. Family does better financially now, and we were tired of the compromise. I would never suggest a Subaru to anyone again. I took $4k for a trade-in on a pretty clean example of the vehicle, but 166k miles were too much I guess. I’m sure my new Kia will eventually be a a source of frustration and anxiety, but my *worst* mpg’s in the Kia have been on road trips (think 2-3.5 hours in winter conditions) when I am not utilizing the 34 miles of electricity. The *worst* mpg’s are equal to the Subaru’s best. When not road tripping, we get minimum of 50 mpg. Last tank was 70+.
My daughter cried when we got rid of it. There’s a lesson to be learned for her there, I guess. I will miss the sort of analog nature of the Subaru, but when I feel nostalgic for that, I will get in my 07 Rabbit or 98 Sonoma. Good riddance, Subaru!
I’m going to sticky this comment because this is basically my experience.
This just surpassed that 1-hitter I pitched in Little League when I was 10 yo as the crowing achievement of my life. I will sacrifice a single H11 bulb in your honor tonight.
I looked into the Silverstar Ultras for one of my cars. I lost interest when the expected bulb life was measured in 10s of hours, not hundreds.
Silverstars are the biggest scam. Sure they’re bright, but they last one year max. Sylvania figures if you’re dumb enough to buy them once you’ll keep buying them because *brightness*.
Yup. My ‘17 F150 Lariat (bought used) was spec’d w/ chrome and a giant hole in the roof, but has the poverty spec headlights. 3 fireflies in a jug could match the standard light output. I replaced the H-7s w/ H-11s but I’m seriously contemplating going w/ LEDs in the future. Mostly I try to avoid driving it at night. 😉
I highly recommend seeing if LEDs last longer. The replacements are plug-and-play, and when I did it with my 2012 Prius v, the output pattern remained the same, with a sharp cutoff below the windows of other cars on the road.
A friend’s late-aughts Jetta was also eating halogens and we were going to try experimenting with replacing them with LEDs but a deer kamikazed onto their hood over a highway barrier, so that didn’t happen.
Go for the LEDs, but FFS get ones that are geometrical identical to your factory bulb size. The cheap ones you can find generally aren’t, and are the cause for all the folks complaining about “LEDs are blinding!”. Proper LED retrofits aren’t that expensive ($60-250/pair depending on type and brand and features). I’ve had LED retrofits in my last few cars, and zero complaints about glare. I also get as white for color temp as is available so it looks like it could be factory-fitment.
Get name brand. Morimoto, GTR, Diode Dynamics, SuperBrightLEDs.com, Lasfit, etc. There are lots of good choices, but probably exponentially more bad ones.
Can confirm. I get good prices on bulbs, but even with my 1-2 minute bulb replacement time it became more trouble than it’s worth. So I switched to LEDs and haven’t looked back. Now almost all my exterior vehicle lighting has been converted to LED.
I didn’t even go all the way to Silverstars on my truck when I had to replace the bulbs, but even the Xtravisions (or whatever they call them) have a shockingly short lifespan. When they died about a year after I installed them I thought something must have gone wrong, but then I looked up the life expectancy of them and it’s a fraction of what the standard bulbs are. I also didn’t find them noticeably brighter so it was a complete waste.
FWIW, I have an ’07 Impreza with nearly 200k miles on it. It has been pretty reliable over the 12+ years I’ve owned it. It did need the head gaskets replaced on the EJ253 engine at ~95k miles, but that was under $2k. Everything else has been just brakes, fluid changes, and tires. I did have to replace a CV axle due to a torn boot, but that’s normal wear & tear. No issues with alignment.
I also own a 2023 Crosstrek Limited 2.5L, and I absolutely love it so far. The 182hp FB25D engine is plenty for a runaround car, and the TR580 CVT programming is really good now. When you’re driving around normally doing daily driver stuff, the CVT operates quietly and smoothly in the background and I find it to be extremely pleasant. I like it much, much more than the conventional 4EAT auto in my older Impreza, which is a supremely dumb thing and never knows where it’s supposed to be. I’m a “car enthusiast” and have track cars and muscle cars, and for daily driving duties I’ve become a big fan of the current Subaru CVT. It works very well now.
So far not a single issue with my ’23 Crosstrek after 14 months of ownership. It has been a fantastic car.
Subaru went through a rough period from around 2010-17, but they’ve got most of their issues sorted out now.
We *almost* bought a 2020 Subaru Ascent. Backed out due to the Subaru dealer being 40 minutes away and the startling reliability issues I started to see popping up online with Ascents.
We ended up with a boring but tried-and-true 2019 Toyota Highlander. It was fine but we don’t even have it anymore. Decided to downsize for financial reasons, and sold the Highlander during the COVID used car crisis for more than we owed on it.
We’re now back in a 2016 Mazda CX-5 with just over 100,000 miles (we actually traded a 2013 Mazda CX-5 on the Highlander). The CX-5 has thankfully been trouble-feee aside from maintenance.
I have never owned a Subaru, so this is good information. The Crosstrek (especially the new Wilderness trim) piques my interest every time I see an article about it – until I read that it is only available with a CVT. Nope! As long as that remains the case, I’ll never buy one. Sounds like that awful transmission is actually saving me a lot of money/aggravation!
A Subaru (specially forester) is like adopt a stray dog, some times i’ll piss the floor, others does not respond at first order, other times maybe requires a vet’s apointment but there is something about feling real love there, like the feeling it does not let you down like those posher doges.
Yep, you should have bought the C-Max. Mine has been utterly reliable. In 72,000 miles, I’ve had to replace nothing but the battery. The OEM tires lasted 40K miles, and it’s never needed a realignment. I own’t brag about the mileage, that would be piling on your misery. Suffice to say that this PHEV uses less than half the gas of your Subaru.
But I understand the Forester’s appeal. My daughter’s first car was a C-Max, selected with my input, but after a few years, she just had to have a Forester. She’s an avid hiker, virtually a professional, and she drives lots of forest roads in the Cascades. Some of the trailheads near Seattle have nothing but Subarus, and she wanted to be part of that crowd. So she bought a 2017 Foz, probably just like yours. After a few weeks, I asked her what she thought of it. “Well…(long pause) I’m going to keep it a few years and pay down the loan, but then I’ll probably get something else.”
The Forester has excellent architecture, with big windows and perfect visibility. If it had a better engine and suspension and more noise insulation and better seats and build quality, it would be perfect. That would be very much like my current car, a Mercedes GLK.
I’ve owned or been the primary driver of six Subarus.
1983 GL Wagon 5spd
1983 Leone Turbo 5spd Turbo 4wd (JDM while living in Japan)
1999 Outback Sedan
2005 Outback Wagon 5spd
2009 Legacy 3.0R
2015 Forester
The Forester will be the last one ever unless I get a manual WRX at some point. Their CVT’s are terrible and don’t appreciably increase MPG’s. The WRX doesn’t even come in a wagon/hatchback.
Subaru used to make interesting cars. They’ve just gotten worse in the last 8-10 years.
re the CVT, I have a 2023 and they seem to have worked out the driveability bugs. they have pretty much eliminated the “fake gears” thing and for the most part it is responsive and good.
I also get ~31-32 MPG pretty much all the time regardless of in town or on highway (went on a couple long trips last summer where I averaged 33.5). complaining about gas mileage compared to a civic is a bit silly though, civic is half the frontal area, 2/3rds the weight and has a smaller engine.
Well, this is very similar to our experience with my wife’s 2018 Forester, except we had the CVT replaced via warranty after 20k miles. Which naturally scared the shit out of us. But so far it’s been fine, the dealer has been way more accomodating than expected, blah blah blah.
We purchased our 2018 in 2018, at 0% financing (hell yeah, lol) for a 2.5i (base trim) with the alloy and roof rail package. And rubber mats. That’s it. For only 24k though. With the 0% financing, our total cost only 5+ years ago would get us what… a Versa now? Pretty screaming deal.
You’re right, the stock tires wore to hell quick. We also replaced them with CrossClimates, I’ll be keeping an eye on the way those wear. We’ve only put 42k on the car in 5.5 years, as it’s mostly being used as an in town shuttle for kids and the occasional trip where my wife and I leave town without the kids (rare). We have a van for everything else.
Gripes: Front driver’s seat is straight up uncomfortable. I just can’t seem to find a comfortable position, and the seat is basically rock hard. Really wish we had gotten the premium trim which was a screaming deal that brought like, basically all the equipment you could ever want for 2k? That’s our fault though. Subaru’s pearl white paint is a real fucking pain to keep looking nice.
Pros: For a sad approximation of an SUV, I think it actually looks good? Honest. Yeah it’s no 2nd gen Forester, but I think overall it’s pretty alright looking. The light colored interior makes being in the car genuinely pleasant, that with all the massive expanse of glass makes the interior unlike basically anything else out there. Visibility through those windows are top notch. Latch anchors are the easiest to get to in Subarus than I’ve experienced in any other car. People complain that it’s too slow, not good enough on gas whatever, but this was a 24k large (in my opinion) brick of a car that we intended to beat on like a rented mule. It’s fast enough. It’s ok on gas compared to anything else that was redesigned in 2015. The AWD system is genuinely good.
I understand that for an enthusiast the Forester is pretty blah, but I think you really have to look at the Forester’s intangibles to understand why they’re loved by many, especially in the Northeast. The AWD system. The practical no-nonsense interior. The relaxed, friendly marketing vibes. They’re not as reliable as some people make them to be, and they’re not as unreliable as some people make them to be. Do I wish it were more fun? Oh hell yes. But it’s a crossover. Crossovers AREN’T fun. They never will be. So I have no regrets, because the Forester does what it was set out to do.
Cross shopped this with a CX-5 as well when we bought ours in 2014. I hated the feeling of the CVT in the Subaru. 10 years on and 108k trouble free miles with the CX-5 with the exception of needing to replace the windshield washer reservoir due to a pinhole leak.
One comment that you made was that the CX-5 was hard to find and expensive in a 5 speed… the stick was only available on the lowest trim with the 2.0 (not 2.5) motor. So maybe it was just rare?
We live in New England and Subies are everywhere. They still seem to have some nostalgic cache around here for some reason…
We have one of each. From a space/cargo comparison at least, it’s night and day with how small the CX-5 is comparatively and we usually end up taking the Subaru for trips bc of that reason. The CX-5 is miles better from a driving perspective, though. Also our CX-5 had rattles almost right after we bought the thing (about 2500 miles or so) which still annoys me to this day.
Makes sense. No kids for us… just a dog. Bummer about the rattles. We have none.
I’ve had 9 Subarus but they were all older ones from a 1997 to a 2006. All were 5spd manuals except for a $200 Outback which I gave to a friend. I have not experienced any of those issues with the older ones. And I also only replaced head gaskets once, proactively on one Forester I owned. All were driven like they were in the New England Forest Rally every time it snowed. I’ve jumped them, thrashed them, carried my kids, dogs and bikes countless times. But I will not buy a modern Subaru. They chased growth and went all in on CVT. All the fun is gone, same for modern VW. I only owned my MK7 GTI for 8 months and traded it out. New cars are so boring, just like modern color options.
I have the same car though with a manual transmission. I’m sorry about your experience and I’m a bit curious if there were differences in our cars besides the engine? The manual only came on the naturally aspirated 2.5L engine (versus the turbocharged 2.0L), I’d imagine everything else would be the same.
I haven’t had nearly the problems you’ve had. The engine leaks oil (believe it was the cam) and I started changing it ~4k miles so I won’t have to keep topping it off, the parking brake light would come on around sharp turns, the passenger airbag sensor had issues disabling it for a while, and the bushings on the rear suspension seem to be leaking fluid.
Other than that it’s been general wear and tear: I have about 90k miles and I’m on my 2nd battery, 2nd set of tires, 2nd set of brakes, nothing major. I took the car to the dealership for a diagnostic hoping I could get the oil issue covered under warranty but it wasn’t. They fixed the issue with the parking brake (master cylinder) at no cost as it was a separate $200 fee which I didn’t want to pay. The passenger airbag sensor wasn’t due to the recall and they said it’d cost $1,500 to replace. I disconnected it for a couple months and when I reconnected it the issue went away.
Manuals in this vehicle were hard to find. I was in a similar situation when I bought it, I had a manual coupe and the wife and I had a baby on the way. Luckily with not many people wanting manuals and with my parents having a Costco membership, we got a great deal on it, well below sticker price. My wife can’t drive it so I can never drink much but the manual is well worth it.
You got what you deserved.
They are for rich people cos-playing a “regular folk”. Maybe 20 years ago, they were something worth buying, but its been a long time since anyone should have recommended a Subaru to someone, let alone a car- writer who tests cars, actually buying one.
….what? He literally said $25,000 and 1.9% interest rate. That sounds pretty damn reasonable to me for a new car.
And, yeah, that’s how reviews of things like cars, phones, computers, etc. work. In an ideal world, we’d buy things and then review them on the day they’re no longer usable many years later, giving our impression of the entire ownership experience, except that doesn’t work because few or no people are in a position to benefit from that review information at that point.
Buy a phone with 5 years of software support? When those 5 years are up, I can comprehensively tell you how the phone worked over that period, but that’s useless knowledge because anyone who buys it is using an unsupported phone.
Same with computers.
Cars? Again, in an ideal world we’d get reviews from 15-year owners or something similar…but it’s fruitless at that point because you can no longer buy that new (except in the extremely rare and unlikely event that the car has not significantly changed over that period), and anyone who goes to buy your same model year is now dealing with playing the lottery of how other owners treated it over that time.
There’s no real feasible happy medium for cars and electronics reviews. They have to keep them for a week or a month at best, and that’s all you get. Have to strike when the iron’s hot.
Had a Forester. Worst automatic tranny ever (not a CVT at the time). Leaked oil everywhere. A Subaru fan boy bought it.
I’ve had Hondas in the past and they’re kind of cheap. Won’t buy another.
As for the numbness of a Toyota? A morphine drip is more alive.
Much to my dismay, my wife has been hooked on Outbacks for the past dozen years. She’s currently on her fourth, a 2021. I find the driving experience to be mind-numbingly bland and the manufactured counter-culture fanaticism annoying. Otherwise, I have to admit, the ownership experience has been pretty flawless. We’ve been passing the cars on to our daughter when my wife gets a new one and, other than the well-known head issue in the 2012, they’ve just needed routine maintenance. Agreed that it’s not Lexus level dealer service but the coffee and snacks in the waiting area are better than average. Kim has hinted lately that a Rivian R1T might get her to break her Subaru habit. If it wasn’t for the price of entry, we’d already have one.
From Outback to Rivian, that’s quite the jump.
I love that Myron is posting here!!!
See, your problem is you bought a boring, forgettable car.
Instead, you could have spent less money, like half, and gotten a Forester XT with the STi block and manual trans, and had something awesome that would hold value.
Instead you spent double the money on something boring, that ‘does not spark joy’, and it doesn’t spark joy with other people either, because it’s not a desirable car.
Sell it and buy something actually cool. Life is to short for boring vehicles.
I think this is Matt’s “reliable family car” that does the typical drudgery you’d expect it to. There’s a value to having one, consistent car available that gets you and your family where it needs to go.
I do not understand this mentality. So you think if something is cool, it won’t be reliable? Or if it’s reliable, it has to be some boring schlock like this?
A forester XT with a factory tune would be reliable and fun and do family stuff just fine. Throw a bit of money at it and it’d be an animal, and still reliable as long as you don’t get a crazy aggressive tune.
Not necessarily. However the issues Matt has had would likely be similar to the XT (seems to be suspension related). I would imagine that having a potentially similar (or maybe worse, or better?) maintenance experience, coupled with the car costing an extra 6k or so for the XT wouldn’t have been a great financial decision (an extra 6k for an engine upgrade like that would be pretty great in 2024 though huh?).
I’d imagine if Matt could have swung for the XT at the time, he probably would have. Life may be too short for boring cars, but Matt seems to often have press vehicles to review, fun builds like Ski-Klasse he’s been involved in, etc.
To be clear, I like the XT. I wish my wife’s Forester was an XT. But when you’re car shopping and you’re clicking the pen and lowering it to the signature box, for some people it’s hard to take that extra cost leap. I know it is for me.
The DESIRABLE XT would have half the price of that boring thing. You know. The attractive one that is still worth a lot of money?
I assume you’re talking about the second gen XT? Yeah, naturally anyone would want that.
But we’re talking a car that’s notoriously hard to find in decent shape at this point, by no means a paragon of reliability (or even of mediocre reliability) to be used as a family’s primary car. I could be wrong, but I think Matt and his wife share the use of this Forester?
Hey, second gen Foresters are awesome, they’re basically peak Subaru. But even my most aggressive car enthusiast friends wouldn’t opt for one as an only available family car for kid schlepping duty.
Why? They’re reliable if you’re not boosting them into the stratosphere and doing neutral drops. I find them pretty regularly, if not you can always cruise BaT, again, for way cheaper than that silver POS he bought instead. Makes no sense.
Except it’s not been very reliable, measured in the number of repairs it’s needed.
I’m not defending the particular Forester he’s owned, but rather the rationale he used when he purchased it back when it was new. Just because it didn’t work out great doesn’t mean he necessarily made a bad decision. Sometimes you buy something and it doesn’t meet your expectations. This is one of those times.
” In the roughly 7.5 years I’ve had it I’ve spent around $7,500 keeping it running on top of the cost of buying it.
That seems high to me…”
Are you kidding me? I have never once spent that much on repairing and maintaining a vehicle, and I drive exclusively sub-$1500 machines. I own multiple sub-$500 vehicles that haven’t cost $7500 to repair and maintain.
What you’re telling me is that spending the extra $24,000 on a car with a warranty vs some 30yo jalopy gets you exactly nothing in the reliability and repairs department.
Also: “I needed something dependable, safe, and big enough to schlep a new human…”
The old Civic, and indeed almost any car, is most assuredly big enough for a 3-person family. I often haul 4 adults+stuff in a car smaller than that Civic.
Right? My $3000 Honda required control arms (under $100 each) a $6 temp sensor and that’s it from 180k to 280k. I did a few sets of tires but they were $50/corner.
I recently went down the “what cars can fit a rear-facing baby seat behind a 6-ft tall driver” rabbit hole with a new parent. The list was amazingly short. Said parent also ended up with a Forester.
Wait, what? You can fit such setup to pretty any middle class car. And I’m talking about the EU, while in the US you have enormous vehicles that can fit probably 30 rear-facing baby seats with 6ft tall babies in them. I put two rear facing seats in a gen 7 civic and then cmax without issues, so putting one is not really a challenge, especially when you should put the seat in the middle of the rear bench/seats and not behind the driver.
No, there is “can fit” and then there is “owners are willing to fit” and make it work.
I had a 2000 SL Saturn (a tiny car), with new twins. So, rear facing baby seats behind both the passenger and the driver. I did have to learn to drive pretty close to the steering wheel.
Oh, and I’m 6’6″.
This also meant that I fit all the stuff that two new humans require, and a double stroller in the trunk.
Sorry, it’s not you, I just get tired of hearing people complain and say they NEED a large truck/SUV because they CAN’T fit, etc.
Truth is they WANT a large vehicle because they 1) can afford it, and 2) WANT to be comfortable.
Want and need are two different things.
I don’t think the Forester quite qualifies as large truck/SUV.
And I’m not going to judge myself or others for… buying a car that they can comfortably fit in front of a rear facing car seat? I mean, if I’m out buying a new car for the purpose of moving a family around it would seem I would choose something that we all fit into comfortably. We’re not talking a Suburban here, we’re talking Forester.
Personally, I don’t care too much about how much space my kids have in the backseat, but I’m not driving from NY to NC pressed up against the steering wheel. Also, not sure when you had these twins in a Saturn, but goddamn have car seats gotten bulkier and bulkier. Even in the Forester we couldn’t mount ours in the middle, as it forced BOTH front seats towards the dash to fit.
Props to Saturn ownership though. Love Saturns.
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be hostile towards you. I completely understand your recommendation/ decision!
Given my economic situation when I had twins, I’m just too emotionally sensitive to people who say they NEED more/larger/nicer, and just CAN’T get by with less. This is almost always not true.
They WANT, not NEED.
I was just pointing out that the car seat couldn’t have been the only reason for the decision. The real reason was a combination of (my last statement): 1) Can afford more, 2) want more comfort.
Which is fine.
Oh sure I get it! Trust me, we could’ve dealt with the Corolla/SX4 combo we had before we got the Forester. It just would have sucked a bit, lol.
At the end of the day, anything that is larger and more luxurious than a Honda Fit is more about want than need, for sure.
Forester size is not small (for world standar is medium) for texas standar is very small.
Uhh….. The car seat doesn’t have to be behind the driver……… Am I missing something?
Besides, my not-very-big 1992 Accord would totally fit that. I can also confirm from experience that an XJ Cherokee can fit that, and those are a rather small backseat. I really don’t think there’s an amazingly short list.
I had a $7000 ’97 Econoline-150 conversion van from 2013 to 2019 and it cost ~$15,000 in repairs over that time, only about 1/3 of which was regular expected maintenance like oil changes, brakes, tires, and also the upper and lower ball joints one time.
Meanwhile, my 2012 Prius v I’ve had since 2020 was $11,500 and has only cost me $4,000 in maintenance since then, 3/4 of which was regular, expected maintenance.
So yeah, $7,500 over 7 years seems pretty high for a brand new vehicle as the first owner.
Jeez I don’t know how you spend even that much. A Prius V had 3k in scheduled maintenance in 3 years? Was there a timing belt during that time or something? $1000/yr will pay for a LOT of fluid changes.
15k on the e150 is wild. That will buy a motor and transmission. Also, on a solid axle type suspension(in this case the twin I beam) you don’t generally differentiate upper and lower ball joints, since it would be dumb not to replace both at the same time. Rather different from a wishbone independent suspension.
For the Prius, $650 was new tires; $450 was new pads and rotors; $275 for spark plugs; $210 for a new battery; $180 for buying, mounting, and balancing a new donut tire since the old one was over 10 years old….the rest is 98% oil changes and tire rotations every 5,000 miles since I got it 40,000 miles ago. I was told by an ex-Toyota-mechanic relative to get them done at 5k rather than 10k given its age.
For what it’s worth, 2020 to today is 4 years, so it’s ~$750/year.
Yes, the upper and lower joints were replaced at the same time for the van. Just mentioned because the day I got those and the front pads and rotors replaced ran over $1000, and all just expected/normal items.
I still have the Spreadsheet of Pain detailing every repair it had done. Some of the most odd or unexpected problems occurred with it.
The “vapor can vent valve” (letting air into the tank while driving, or letting it out when refueling) got blocked somehow. Gas pumps would click off early leaving me no idea what capacity I was at til I got in next, so I had it replaced, which involved removing the gas tank.
That happened twice.
The fuel filler hose rotted through and left a nice puddle at a gas station.
Not unheard of, but the serpentine belt took out a bunch of things when it snapped.
Replacing the A/C compressor cost $666. Should’ve taken that as a hint.
One time I had an intermittent complete power failure issue. Took the dealership 5 labor hours to find out it was an intermittent connection from a rusting $3 lug connector on the alternator. The labor included them not able to find the problem initially, then driving it around to reproduce it, and then towing it back to the shop.
Fuel pump replacement too.
One of the two catalytic converters died and was replaced. The new one had a 2-year warranty. Three years later, that replacement died. That was the final nail in the coffin, because that would’ve been another $900 (~$700 part plus labor) and I’m in an emissions inspection county.
That was part of the problem–it rarely cost more than $1000 at once. If the engine or transmission died, it would’ve been a no-brainer. But no, it’d be fine for 2-3 months then need a medium/big repair.
I was a mobile DJ and sound technician for a band for a while, and also I’m the dad of my friend group. And in spite of being mechanically cursed, the interior was pristine. I still watch for conversion vans on Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace, but I’ll only get one if it’s a second vehicle…never want to use one for a daily driver ever again.
Yeah, that kind of thing is why I do all my own work, and why I’m fairly redneck. No way I’d replace a catalytic converter twice, were getting a straight pipe. And no way I’d replace a donut spare….. I have the 1995 spare tire in my pickup, and I’ve used it too.
More power to you. I’m averse to getting my hands dirty under the hood, and even then, for the past ten years myself, family, and close friends have all lived in apartments so we couldn’t do car maintenance at home even if we wanted to.
Yeah correct me if my math is off but $100/year seems more than fine.
“What you’re telling me is that spending the extra $24,000 on a car with a warranty vs some 30yo jalopy gets you exactly nothing in the reliability and repairs department.”
I see him implying that as well, which is confirmation bias of the first degree.
I won’t deny that after 6 Subarus I’m a bit of an apologist, however I’ll also admit I’ll never buy a new one. Once we replace the Turbo Baja (which I want to do while the market is still high) that’s it. I personally have never had one let me down, though my wife got a blow out on the road in the WRX once, and my Subarus have only been on tow trucks 3 times. Once when a caliper bolt on the Forester backed out and the caliper pinched the wheel (yes I changed the pads) the second when the “totaled” Forester was taken away (frame damage did it in, but you should have seen the other guy) the last when the battery/alternator died on the Baja.
I’ve always said you don’t buy the Subaru but the previous owner, and hey, maybe I was lucky 6 times. (one was a really old GL that was done, three totaled, the other 2 I still have).
They are odd cars, more agricultural than road refined, that was what was endearing about them, their oddities. Now you pay top dollar for low tech weirdness, no thanks
You mean $1000/year, not 100. One of those is better than average, the other very much worse.
I was told there’d be no math…
I almost pulled the trigger on a low mileage used Forester this week and I’m glad I didn’t. Thanks for making me feel good about my already made choice 🙂
> In the roughly 7.5 years I’ve had it I’ve spent around $7,500 keeping it running on top of the cost of buying it.
Bruh
Move back to Honda or Toyota and forget all about this.
Buying a new car and then needing $7500 in maintenance over 7 years is remarkably awful. I do better than that with sub-$1000 cars. This has got to be the best argument ever for driving a jalopy. And not just Hondas and Toyotas either.
My free f150 has cost me maybe $2000 now over three years of dailying, and that includes all the repairs needed to put it in the road in the first place. Granted, that probably would have been $7500 if I had done no work myself, but it is entirely inexcusable for the running costs of a new car to be in even the same order of magnitude as the running costs of a free pickup sitting in a farmers field.
$1k a year in maintenance for a new car is nutty. My 2013 Acura has cost me $2500 all in, and it’s all consumables (tires, brakes, belts, oil, etc) in the 8 years I’ve had it (got it CPO).
This seems realllllly high. We’ve had ours for 5.5 years (lower mileage though) and replaced tires and brake pads so far. So YMMV.
Hondas aren’t the sure bets they were and I would never recommend a Toyota for anyone with a semblance of a lust for life for the driving experience.
Speak for yourself. My last ride was a Ford Econoline and now my 2012 Prius v feels like a Miata in the corners.
While all three heads agree, who else am I speaking for? My boring Mazda3 felt like a Lamborghini after driving the work Econolines or NPR, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t suck to drive, if not nearly as bad as a Corolla or Camry. Actually, compared to either Toyotas, I far more enjoyed driving the E-250 or even the NPR with the blown turbo.
That may be true, but we’re talking about reliable alternatives to appliance mobiles here.
The “SilverStar Ultra” superbright headlight bulbs have an expected life of about 125 hours! That is about a normal year of after dark driving for me. I use the cheaper bulbs, they last longer.
Use HIDs from DDMtuning.com, work great, cheap, and way more lumens than stock or silverstars.
Just use bulbs that aren’t as bright. You typically trade longevity for brightness when it comes to most traditional headlight bulbs.
Doesn’t the brightness give you more range and fractions of a second of reaction time, though?
As long as your headlights are actually functioning properly, what legal bulb type you use should absolutely not the deciding factor to you getting in an accident or not. If it is, you are driving too fast for the visibility.
To me, that sort of margin is the sort of thing that statistics would play out as worthwhile. If (numbers completely arbitrary) it only makes a usable difference to 10% of drivers in preventing 1% of accidents, out of 6,000,000 car accidents in the U.S. over a year, that would still be 6,000 fewer.
I’m sure the real numbers are murkier, of course, but even just saving a few means fewer injuries, fewer deaths.
You’re assuming that people wouldn’t just drive even faster since they could see even further.
I don’t know if I’m an exception, but I set my cruise at 67 on the highway these days.
There are dozens of us. Dozens!
And if you headlights were suddenly to become super dim, you wouldn’t slow down?
They are godawful lights, and that tinting makes them harsh, but actually robs you of precious lumens. You can get good long life buls that are brighter than stock and actually last.
If it helps, the OEM Yokohamas on the CX-5 are also garbage. Ours lasted 18K. They also rate poorly in most categories, and are expensive. At this point I can only assume most OEM tire deals are made over 3-martini lunches.
One of my 19 year old Michelins is still rolling around mostly fine @45k. Maybe it’s new tires?
What kind of mileage warranties do OEM tires typically come with?
When I replaced the tires on my 2012 Prius v, I specifically sought out Hankook Kinergy PTs for the 80,000 mile warranty. Already got one replaced for free after getting a nail in the sidewall and AAA towing it to the dealership where I bought them.
An theory I recently saw put forth by a well known tire channel on YouTube is that many automakers at this point are knowingly putting cheap crappy tires on their cars that wear out very quickly. It saves them money, and the consumer blames the tire manufacturer, not the automaker, so they don’t care about it.
Two words. Mazda CX-5.
I have 90k miles on it. I bought in 2016, same years as you. I spent $100 for a faulty wire harness for my seat. $200 for busted alternator belt. $150 for a battery, $500 for a goddamn rear window harness. Zero issues with bulbs or suspension. But I’m in California, so the weather is gentler for vehicles. Before my CX-5 I had a 2001 Subaru Outback and your experience is exactly what I experienced. When I was buying my Mazda I was debating if I should go with another Subaru, but I just couldn’t get pass the CVT. They are horrible.
Oh, let’s not forget I also have a 2004 Mazda MPV with 229k in her. Mazdas are really good vehicles.
Mazda makes cars for us car people. It’s just getting to those non-car people that is tough. Apparently the CX-90 is selling well now, though.
Mazdas are for car people. Love them.
Something I missed here, you wanted the Mazda for the manual, but when you bought your Forester, you opted for the CVT?
Clearly, the universe disapproved of your choice.
That being said, I learned first hand that Subaru ownership is vastly different than Toyota. After about 130,000 miles, a Subie is meant to be disposed of, while a Toyota is ready to begin it’s teenage life.
I still love Subies for their quirkiness though, and I will own an STi or WRX in the future, but reliable transportation these are not.
On the plus side, the crash test ratings for these were fantastic, and I have a few family members that likely wouldn’t be alive if they weren’t in a Forester when they wrecked.
In some of these cars, CVT is the only option. They did offer a manual in this Premium trim, but I’ll bet you it had to be ordered and not on the dealer lot.
I get that, but I don’t get buying a CVT when you wanted a manual, even if you have to wait.
Most newer Subarus are CVT only, and for that reason I would strongly reccomend that people I like should never buy one.
The least they could have done if they didn’t hate their customers is add an actual first gear for take off like Toyota does. This would pretty much guarantee that the transmission would outlast the engine.
Matt states it right in the first few paragraph’s Financially it was a good deal, and also realize that he may not have been to only stakeholder making the decision.
Well, if it’s something you don’t want and shouldn’t buy, it’s never a good deal.
I fully get the whole having to compromise thing though. For that one I would probably say “I work as an auto journalist for an enthusaist website. It has to be manual, for work.”
Probably wouldn’t go over well but worth a try.
I have a 1995 Subaru SVX (3.3 flat six) in my 1986 VW Westfalia. It’s an excellent combination – even if I can’t keep the valve covers from leaking oil. Super reliable van over the last 18 years and with the 240 hp subaru/5mt drivetrain for the last six, I don’t see myself ever letting this go.
This is wildly strange, and very difficult to envision just how that works, but kudos for keeping anything involving SVX parts gracing the roadways.
Most just go for the 2.5. I’d so enjoy the dissonance of hearing your Westfalia pull up a hill at highway speed. Is it a handful in the rain, or do modern tires keep it all in check?
The Quaife limited slip and my right foot keep it under control. The 2.5 would have fit better but the eg33 is such a better engine and much easier to pass the California referee than the OBD2 monitored ej25.
I don’t know about the EG, but it’s basically an EJ22 with two extra cylinders and, on the EJ22, much of the cam cover leakage was down to over-torquing the bolts. It’s 3.6 ft/lbs. (just checked the factory manual, though IIRC, I still torqued them over a hair), which feels like “the bolts are going to vibrate out after a mile” low. They won’t and the leaks should stop. It might be something similar with the EG.
The EG33 is a predecessor to the 2.5 engines and those shared the DOHC head and cover design of the 3.3. I’ve tried all sorts of things other than torquing the screws to 3.6 ft/lb specifically. I’ll try that next time. Thanks.
Right, I completely forgot it was DOHC! Just the short block is based on the 2.2. Maybe helpful, anyway.
I understand Consumer Reports is supposed to be unbiased but one wonders how they and their reader base continue to have such a boner for Foresters. Maybe their subscribers are loyal enough to Subarus to overlook their issues or they tend to dump them before the problems begin.
I understand that this was 30 years ago, but Consumers Reports’ automotive-related biases literally sunk an entire car brand. I would not use “Consumer Reports” and “unbiased” in the same sentence.
….what brand did they sink?
I’ve never been a subscriber of theirs so I don’t know what you’re referring to.
The Suzuki Samurai rollover scandal that Consumer Reports fabricated and falsified was the beginning of the end for Suzuki in the US. Suzuki sued Consumer Reports and won the case, but the payout was not even close to enough, and did not represent the damages done. It was all downhill from there for Suzuki.
Just spent a few weeks in Portland. I swear every fourth car in Portland is a Subaru. There was literally one or more on every block.
I guess it must be good to be an auto mechanic there!
I was going to ask “Which Portland?” but it really doesn’t make a difference.
We grow them out here. They kind of just emerge from the moss every few days.