I’m not sure how I got started daydreaming about this, but I was thinking about something sort of like an overlanding trip. A trip to somewhere very remote and isolated, just driving something far away from any roads, something light and small and capable. Something I could sleep in, under the vast blanket of stars, but enclosed, because I’ve camped in rain enough to know I’ll be fine never camping in rain again. I thought about what kind of vehicle I’d want to do this in, and the Citroën 2CV Sahara came to mind. Remember, I was daydreaming. I can imagine weird shit like that.
You know what a 2CV Sahara was, right? These were special 2CVs built between 1960 and 1966 (with a lone one being built in 1971), never in large numbers, with only about 694 actually being built. They were originally made for oil prospectors in the Sahara desert who needed a light, rugged 4×4 vehicle to get around in.
The regular 2CV was only FWD, so Citroën developed a four-wheel-drive system in the simplest way possible: they shoved a second 13.5 hp air-cooled flat-twin in the rear:
There were two linked transmissions, two fuel tanks (one under each front seat) and the car could run on either engine singly, or both at once. This gave a nice bit of redundancy, because if you had a mechanical problem with one engine, you could limp home with the other.
The Sahara proved very capable off-road, as you can see:
But a Sahara isn’t really ideal to sleep in; it’s still a regular 2CV body, after all, and since I’m daydreaming, I’d prefer something I can sleep in. Citroën did make a more van-like variant of the 2CV called the Fourgonnette:
…but there was never a Sahara version of the Fourgonette. And that’s what I want for my overlanding daydream! It’d look something like this:
Like the Sahara, it would have the hood-mounted spare tire, under-seat fuel tanks, cutaway rear fenders, and, yes, the extra engine at the rear:
I’d like to relocate the air cleaner a bit lower to get the engine a bit shorter, since I’ll need to have a Volkswagen Type 2-like hump over that engine in the back there, and I want it as low as possible. I think the interior would look something like this, with a raised floor at the rear:
I could still rig a bed in there, though, with some space below it for storage or water tanks or whatever. I think this would be ideal! Here’s how I imagine it’d look from the rear:
The rear doors would be shortened to clear the rear engine bay, and it would have the Sahara-like exposed cooling fan back there.
I don’t really understand why Citroën never made a Fourgonette version of the Sahara, but I think they missed out on a fantastic opportunity. At least, you know, in my procrastination daydreams, which I’m told are a lucrative, heretofore unexplored market.
My great-uncle was a Lutheran pastor and missionary (a generally lovely but misguided man) in Cameroon from the ’60s to the ’80s. When his oldest son was in his late teens in the 70s, they flew to the UK and bought a Land Rover & Renault 4 and drove them back to Cameroon. They both said the Renault was far less trouble on the trip than the Land Rover.
Cars that are less trouble than a land rover is a pretty long list
So very true. It was even bettered by a small French hatchback on a journey across Africa.
Again and for the umpteenth time, I’m a bit unnerved by how similarly our brains work Jason (you should see my collection of vintage Unix workstations… it rivals your own collection of hardware I think) because (of course) after careful consideration, I arrived at the conclusion that an old 2CV Fourgonette is exactly what I needed for my (fictional) artisanal baguette business.
I actually found one in a delightfully faded red (now pinkish) supposedly for sale for $16,500. in Santa Monica, but multiple inquiries on my part went unanswered. So, no Fourgonette for me. 🙁 Probably for the best, since spending that kind of $ on an ancient, creaky tinfoil box with barely more horsepower than my 200cc Suzuki would probably get me committed on a mental health hold.
PS: I suggest that Autopian consider making its own Saharafied Fouronette as the next company car/project. But wait… there’s a twist! 😉 Instead of adding another flat-twin in back to drive the rear wheels, I think it’d be MUCH more interesting if an early BMW i3 be used as a drivetrain donor instead (like David’s cheap one, if he still has it). So: the original two cylinder engine drives the front, or the BMW drivetrain drives the back, with exponentially more horsepower. I’m not foolish enough to think both motors could be used at once… at least not without a Raspberry Pi/Arduino and a lot of custom code trying to control/coordinate both engines, as if such a thing were possible with a $100 homebrew ECU, rather than the ones VW etc… spend zillions of development dollars creating.
🙂
Again and for the umpteenth time, I’m a bit unnerved by how similarly our brains work Jason (you should see my collection of vintage Unix workstations… it rivals your own collection of hardware I think) because (of course) after careful consideration, I arrived at the conclusion that an old 2CV Fourgonette is exactly what I needed for my (fictional) artisanal baguette business.
I actually found one in a delightfully faded red (now pinkish) supposedly for sale for $16,500. in Santa Monica, but multiple inquiries on my part went unanswered. So, no Fourgonette for me. 🙁 Probably for the best, since spending that kind of $ on an ancient, creaky tinfoil box with barely more horsepower than my 200cc Suzuki would probably get me committed on a mental health hold.
PS: I suggest that Autopian consider making its own Saharafied Fouronette as the next company car/project. But wait… there’s a twist! 😉 Instead of adding another flat-twin in back to drive the rear wheels, I think it’d be MUCH more interesting if an early BMW i3 be used as a drivetrain donor instead (like David’s cheap one, if he still has it). So: the original two cylinder engine drives the front, or the BMW drivetrain drives the back, with exponentially more horsepower. I’m not foolish enough to think both motors could be used at once… at least not without a Raspberry Pi/Arduino and a lot of custom code trying to control/coordinate both engines, as if such a thing were possible with a $100 homebrew ECU, rather than the ones VW etc… spend zillions of development dollars creating.
Hey, I’ve been daydreaming of an established automaker releasing a hybrid powertrain in crate format for conversion of older cars (with an upgradable array of modular batteries rather than 1 large battery pack), and the i3 REx powertrain does feel like something that could work – if fits into a rather small car, so it should fit in lots of bigger old cars.
Agreed (also, I dunno how my post got there twice… sorry ’bout that). Though I prefer the battery-only i3 to the added weight/complexity of the REx models, of course I understand the appeal. I gotta imagine that transplanting an i3 drivetrain and (one of the smaller) batteries into a Fourgonette could still leave some room for cargo (albiet with a raised floor, so less cargo height… that wouldn’t be too much of an issue if delivering baguettes IMO). 😉
PS: I think Autopian wrote about it a while back, but wasn’t there some startup making ‘add on’ hybrid kits for ICE cars where the battery pack was out back on a tow hitch?
My daydream business plan is to offer drop-in kits where a classic car can use a modern engine or electric motor using original mounting points and no fabrication that isn’t reversible.
I bet I could fit a 4cyl turbo hybrid all within the dimensions of an old engine. 300HP 30 MPG
The electric motor part is easy, it’s figuring out where to put the batteries.
If I ran the world, immediately after changing the name of the day between Monday and Wednesday to Huesday, I would start making electric motors that fit within the form factor of the clutch and bell housing of various classic cars.
Of course, you don’t actually need a transmission, but they are fun, and it would be easy to have the clutch pedal hooked up to the controller to provide zero torque when depressed (or is it pressed, I can imagine the clutch pedal thinking “where is my dear friend the throw out bearing?”, so I guess it’s depressed)
That way, you would preserve the experience of a classic car without changing it to an invasion of the body snatchers/night of the living dead simulacrum of a classic.
Oh, and I hear that the brake booster that Toyota uses on its hybrids and Tesla also uses is the shit for boosting without vacuum, if my 914/6 ever sees the road again, I might retrofit one into it.
Your daydream sounds like an overly-complicated, less practical Renault 4F6 Sinpar 4×4 to me, not gonna lie. They also made them with rear windows, if that’s your thing. No fuel tanks under the front seats, though.
Yeah, those Renaults are mighty cool. However, there’s a certain je ne sais quoi about the dual-engined Sahara 2CV and the like that mono-engined vehicles just don’t have, which is the whole point of daydreaming about a Sahara fourgonnette.
Fair enough, I do love the simple-yet-smart solution they went with for the 2CV Sahara to accomplish 4-wheel drive (as well as switching between FWD and RWD as needed), but in this case I assumed the daydream had more to do with the ability to camp in a tiny overlanding machine, which the rear engine in a hypothetic AK Safari van would deeply impact. A Sinpar F6 with its stretched wheelbase would be just the right size for a 1-person camper. But I guess that’s my daydream, not Jason’s 🙂
I have an endured god awful shift linkages in the past, Porsche 914 for example and a 69 Chevelle if it was so sloppy that valet parking would jammed into two gears at once and I’d have to crawl under the car to get it out of the parking lot. The Sahara sounds like a bridge, no make that two bridges, too far.
Can you order one on Temu?
Were you still you in this dream? Or perhaps a shake-n-bake chicken?
I want this…. Maybe I can find a beater VW put a type 3 motor in it cut off the back and add a little corrugated tin and come close
A soft top 2CV has more room than a tin top, because you can just have things sticking up trough the roof as much as you like. I drove with a flagpole in mine once..
Also if you roll over in the desert, you can get out of the roof by poking whatever sharp object you find through it. A finger might even work. So I guess for safety as well. In a car where you sat on the gas tank… 😀
Here’s a well loaded 2CV, posted by yourself once: https://www.theautopian.com/lets-appreciate-this-iconic-citroen-2cv-image-with-the-grandfather-clock-cold-start/
I am also not that french, but I am convinced Fourgonette just means small van. So they MADE a fourgonette, CALLED the AK250, AK400, later Acadiane, and so on.
Oh, yeah, a Sahara fourgonnette would indubitably be the pinnacle of simple overlanding. Alternatively, how about a similar version of the Corvair Lakewood station wagon or Greenbrier van with the second engine in the frunk? Heck, some stock mono-engined Corvairs actually succeeded in transversing the Darién Gap: https://web.archive.org/web/20231006145311/https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a36177863/corvairs-in-the-jungle-of-death/
Still, the 2CV gets my vote in the DDSBSD (Daydreaming Shitbox Showdown.)
I would renew my membership for DDSBSD alone.
Of course it would be a Fourgonette Conclusion.
Torch: there’s hope yet for you. Have you thought of reaching out to Caselani?
https://en.caselani.com/
The bodykit they’ve got the Ami is adorable.
But, perhaps, making a lifted van might satisfy the itch whilst keeping all the modern kit underneath.
I cannot help hearing jaunty accordion music when I look at this website.
As long as there’s a picnic with wine, cheese, and a baguette.
I bet Ford would have sold more Transit Connects if they’d called it a Fourgonette.
Edit: or “Fordgonette.”
It’s because the French are cowards 😉
Now take 2 Toronado motors and transmissions and a van body (Greenbriar?) and frame and have at it.
Make sure to prepare for future deafness or wear appropriate ear protection. My 1964 2cv is loud as is. Could only imagine how two engines would sound in that uninsulated sardine can 🙂
I approove zis message
Didn’t know that Fourgonette translates as van. But, jeez, two engines, two transmissions, two gas tanks? Did you need a second driver to back up? Fun idea, though you may want to consider changing your sleep meds.
There is a current British TV show called Whitstable Pearl where the owner of a seafood restaurant drives a blue Fourgonnette.
Just watched that yesterday.
I love it, but just don’t take it to the desert. You’d roast like a chicken back there.
Worlds largest air fryer.
https://i.sstatic.net/MNeE7.jpg
The link doesn’t seem to work.
Aw, MAN! Maybe this?
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/105867/how-many-times-has-make-it-so-been-demanded-by-anyone-other-than-picard
It was a Fourgon conclusion that you would think of this.
Oh, Four the love of God… why couldn’t I have come with this?
Mais non! You beat me to it! Merde!
I dunno, man. To me, that seems like the absolute most complicated way to turn a FWD car into a 4WD. But it is definitely the most French way to do it.
I doubt the tiny two-cylinder engine had enough power to handle the all-wheel-drive system.
There is 4×4 kits for 2cv’s using the original engine or visa engine if you are in more of a hurry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPR8oNWH4Rw
The 1958–1966 2CV Safari had 12.5 horsepowers (incrementally increased to 18 by the end of its production) so the friction loss for turning all of four wheels, driveshaft, and such would sap most of the power.
If the owner of the green 2CV 4×4 wanted quick and cheap route, he probably used the Méhari 4×4 chassis (1980–1983) as both 2CV and Méhari used the same chassis. The engine was also larger and more powerful (602cc and 32.8 horsepowers) so it could provide more power to all of four wheels.
Citroen didn’t have any RWD or 4WD cars at the time so this made some sense in a roundabout fashion – the only things they had to develop were new gear, clutch and throttle linkages rather than subframes, suspension components and drive shafts, and without a front to rear driveshaft the original floor pressing (which was probably key to the structure of the car) could be used too.
If you think about it, most hybrid AWD vehicles based on FWD vehicles do exactly the same thing by putting a second motor on the back axle – it’s just an electric one instead.
Citroën eventually developed the 4WD system for Méhari in 1980. Méhari used the same chassis as 2CV.
they did try the simple way later,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Citro%C3%ABn_BX_4TC_Evolution_cropped.jpg/1920px-Citro%C3%ABn_BX_4TC_Evolution_cropped.jpg
It’s also the most Torch way.