I know, I know, “gentleman’s agreement” is a gendered term, but it’s a reference to a “bubble era” understanding between Japanese automakers that they would not sell cars with more than 276 advertised horsepower. The point was to avoid a competition in which automakers went back-and-forth trying to one-up one another; “horsepower wars” were a bad thing, some thought. Meanwhile in the U.S., horsepower wars have been raging since day 1, but there has always been a limiting element that has kept figures from getting out of control in a regular consumer vehicle. Now, with electric cars, that element is gone, leading me to wonder if a “gentleman’s agreement” makes sense now more than ever.
Here’s a little background on Japan’s “gentleman’s agreement,” per Car and Driver‘s 2004 article “Japan Dumps 276-hp Pact”:
Since 1989, Japanese automakers have all endorsed—at least on paper—a kind of gentlemen’s agreement that limited their advertised horsepower to 276 on domestically produced vehicles. Their primary goal was to avoid a horsepower war in a country where the maximum speed limit is 62 mph. But in October, Honda officially broke the agreement at its Legend (Acura RL in the U.S.) press conference when it unveiled the model’s 300-hp, 3.5-liter V-6.
For years, it’s been presumed that once an automaker stuck out its neck and ignored the 276-hp mark, the rest would quickly follow. And judging by what’s in the Japanese production pipeline, it looks as if the conventional wisdom was correct.
So the agreement between Japanese automakers didn’t last forever, but the intent was good. Why keep cramming power into cars when 276 is more than enough? Well, cars grew heavier, and safety advancements like stability control and traction control entered the mainstream, making a 300 horsepower Camry safe in the hands of pretty much any Uber driver. So in this case, relaxing that agreement made sense.
Yes, There’s A Horsepower War Already Raging, But Mostly Among Sports Cars
Of course, horsepower wars have continued in the muscle car segment, with Ford Mustang GTs now making 470 horsepower, wreaking havoc on Cars & Coffees everywhere. Also wreaking havoc on every major street in America (especially Detroit)? Dodge Chargers and Challengers. Seriously, Hellcats and Scat Packs and Demons are out of control; I hear them all the time tearing through America’s streets. They’re cheap horsepower, and cheap horsepower yields silliness.
During the research for this article, I found that the State of Texas seized a 1000 horsepower Dodge Challenger Hellcat that had allegedly been “evading law enforcement.” Now the car is being used to catch the badguys:
Anyway, the Mustang and Challenger are not really my concern. They’re sports cars, so them being ridiculously powerful is less of a problem than, say, a Toyota Camry being ridiculously powerful. At least in the case of the Challenger and Mustang, the person behind the wheel consciously chose to drive a sports car, and they hopefully have some level of understanding of what that entails re: their responsibility/the risk involved.
No, the thing I’m worried about is the average car being absurdly fast.
The Technical Obstacles Preventing Powerful ‘Normal Cars’ Is Gone
With internal combustion engines, the risk of this happening has always been fairly low, as there are significant technical obstacles in the way. With ICEs, power and efficiency are, in large part, inversely proportional, meaning throwing a high-horsepower motor into pretty much anything will punish you at the pump. There will never be a 500 horsepower supercharged V6 Honda CR-V, because Honda CR-V owners want at least 30 MPG and long-term durability.
What’s more, making power costs money, especially given modern CO2 regulations. If Honda did decide to jam a 500 horsepower engine into a CR-V, a competitor would offer a vehicle with improved fuel economy for less money, and CR-V sales would tank. A more powerful internal combustion engine requires advanced technology to meet emissions regulations, and it requires increased robustness to handle the stresses. And that all means one thing: $.
But with EVs, these two obstacles don’t exist. A more powerful electric motor doesn’t yield as significant a decrease in overall efficiency, and what’s more, a more powerful motor doesn’t add that much cost, either.
There are inefficiencies associated with a larger motor size, and there are inefficiencies associated with wiring/electronics needs that go along with higher-current output from the battery to a motor, but the cost isn’t as noticeable to the driver as it is with an internal combustion engine vehicle.
It’s for this reason that you see Kia SUVs with 576 horsepower, “hot-hatch” mid-size Hyundai SUVs with 601 horsepower, a Chevy Blazer EV with 557 horsepower, a Tesla Model 3 sedan with 510 horsepower, and I could go on and on. Just this week we said the new 429 horsepower Nissan Ariya Nismo wasn’t powerful enough when compared to the competitive set — and that’s just a midsize crossover! Since when is a 429 horsepower Nissan midsize SUV not powerful enough?
But that’s the world we live in. Power has never been cheaper or more attainable or coupled with as few compromises. And when you pair that power with a lack of a traditional transmission, it can overcome an EV’s curb weight to yield zero to 60mph times that blows the doors off of ICE cars. And that’s a problem.
Just watch how fast that Lotus Eletre in the video above accelerates when I hit the pedal to the floor. It’s absolutely absurd, and the reality is that, if you’re doing 0-60 in 2.95 seconds, your ability to navigate the vehicle with precision, and to react to obstacles, is going to be diminished. It’s just reality.
I’m Not The Only One Concerned
I’m not the only one with concerns about democratized horsepower.
[UPDATE: The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety just responded to my inquiry on the subject at hand. Here’s what they sent me:
Yes, the amount of power packed into many new EVs raises safety concerns because we know that higher horsepower often means higher travel speeds. Our past research has found that vehicles with more power are more likely to exceed the speed limit, and this is concerning because higher speeds make a crash more likely and make that crash more severe if it happens. In fact, speed is one of the biggest traffic safety issues in the U.S., implicated in more than 12,000 deaths in 2022.
Concerns about speed are compounded by the extra weight of these EVs, which often weigh hundreds or thousands of pounds more than similar internal combustion engine vehicles. In a crash, that means the vehicle itself or its crash partner will have to manage that extra energy.
IIHS sent me this link to explore the aforementioned concerns in more depth -DT]
NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy has voiced her concerns about powerful, heavy EVs, with Arstechnica quoting her in its piece “EVs are getting too heavy and too powerful, safety chief says.” From that article:
On Wednesday, National Transportation Safety Board chair Jennifer Homendy raised the alarm during her keynote speech at this year’s Transportation Research Board’s annual meeting in Washington, DC.
“I’m concerned about the increased risk of severe injury and death for all road users from heavier curb weights and [the] increasing size, power, and performance of vehicles on our roads, including electric vehicles,” she told attendees.
Newsweek also wrote about this topic in its story “Electric Vehicles May Be Too Hazardous for Teen Drivers.” From that piece, which cites a AAA representative:
Even the slowest EVs out-accelerated 43 percent of internal combustion engine (ICE) performance cars.
“Fast-accelerating cars are indeed a risk for novice drivers; they may be more tempted to explore such vehicles’ performance capabilities. This is why AAA recommends for novice drivers a traditional passenger sedan with moderate power, such as a four-cylinder engine or similar,” Dr. William Van Tassel, manager of driver’s training programs at AAA told Newsweek.
“Plus, controlling the throttle of a high-power vehicle can be difficult for drivers of any age; they can end up going much faster than they intended, way beyond a safe speed. One result of the availability of EVs is that we are now also having to teach that if drivers do a lot of fast accelerating they will be out of power soon–don’t want that,” he said.
Even our Stephen Rivers wrote on Carscoops a while back “Are Electric Cars Getting Too Fast For Your Average Driver?” Hop on Reddit, and you’ll see that it’s not just journalists and safety advocates who worry about EVs offering too much speed to the layperson. Here’s a post from Independent_Win_4187:
I think there needs to be some regulation for how fast EVs can go because regular consumers have access to sub 5 second cars and that is scary.
The average Joe wouldn’t even think of getting proper training on how to handle heavy bullets, I predict that over the coming years EV caused vehicular fatalities will rise due to people not being able to control their 3 ton weapons. The F150 lightning can reach 0-60 in 4.0 seconds. That is way too much for a regular person to handle, and it’s a truck.
When the IONIQ 5 and ev6 released. They were piling up in junk yards because people obviously couldn’t control them. That kind of power on the road is not needed for your regular suburban family.
Point is, I think the manufacturers are overconfident in the competence of the average driver. It’s only a matter of time until regulations step in, and I’m all for it.
Another solution would be to retrain the population to handle these cars, but that would be more expensive than just stopping at the source. Thing is, they’ve already started rolling out quick.
I love the idea of EVs, I just don’t like the idea of a incompetent user running over innocent people.
There are plenty of folks who completely disagree, with some saying that, historically, performance cost money, and now that it doesn’t, to punish the layperson by limiting their vehicle would be classist.
I kinda get the argument, but at the same time, there’s value in there being some limiting factor — something that prevented insane horsepower from getting into the majority of folks’ hands. It’s a volume thing. As I mentioned before, this limiting factor on ICEs was cost and fuel economy (and also, typically, maintenance costs). If you want lots of power from a gas car in 2024, you have to pay a good amount of money, and you’re going to be punished at the fuel pump. Not so with an EV.
You may wonder why an automaker would even bother with a 600 horsepower commuter car like a Camry, and if I’m honest: It’s possible such a thing will never exist, and this whole article is just me worrying about nothing. But with horsepower costing so little to build and creating so few compromises for a driver, I could see an automaker deciding to make sure its average family sedan has a few more ponies than the Nissan Altima at the dealership across town. Before you know it, it’s possible an 89 year-old is confused, and taps their pedal against the ground, shooting their 5000 pound EV from zero to 60 in 2.9 seconds right toward your rear bumper on a Saturday morning. That’s a scary thought.
Two more things before I conclude here: First, there’s software that can probably alleviate my concerns; you can offer 600 horsepower, but perhaps require one to dig through the menus to get to that particular “max power” setting. Second, I have to mention insurance companies, because even if cost and fuel economy are no longer the regulators of horsepower, and even if there is no “gentleman’s agreement,” the insurance companies are there to be the horsepower regulators, should there be a need. You can bet that, if it’s established that high horsepower EVs in the hands of laypeople are creating a more dangerous roadway, it’s almost a certainty that insurance companies will make it harder for folks to insure 600 horsepower camrys than, say, 300 horsepower ones.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
Oh yeah – now that you got tired of testing them – let’s limit them ?!?
I call bullshit.
17 year-old me would give (recently turned) 50 year-old me ten solid nut taps for saying this, but:
there shouldn’t be any road legal cars that can do 0-60 faster than 6 seconds….maybe 5.5. That’s plenty fast for the average road goer (talk to just about any Miata owner about this). Anything below that should be reserved for track toys, off-road toys, drift toys…. all on closed courses.
I’m on the fence here. The libertarian in me says, “It’s a free country, damn it! No limits!” The realist in me says, “people are dumb and dumb people will kill other people if given too much power.” Parallel trains of thought could be made for anything potentially dangerous (guns, drugs, etc.).
But sticking with high power cars, I wonder if the impending 2029 automatic emergency braking (AEB) mandate is part of the answer?
I also think driver licenses need more stringent requirements and that people should even need to re-test every xx years (not just have their eyes checked). There are WAAAAY too many incompetent drivers on the road who, even when not distracted by their phones, don’t have the knowledge, demeanor and reaction time to have any business holding a driver license.
In the 1980s, the German manufacturers met together and came up with their own “gentlemen’s agreement” as to limit their vehicles to 250 km/h (155 mph). Partly due to the fear that unhinged Greens with their destructive policies would push hard for speed limit on the Autobahnen. Partly due to BMW’s horror that its new E32 750i/750iL could reach 300 km/h very easily (yes, the early 1987 brochure for the US market showed 186 mph with asterisk next to it, denoting that it was electronically limited to 155 mph).
Only Porsche “forgot” to show up and wasn’t part of the “gentlemen’s agreement”. Eventually, the “gentlemen’s agreement” turned to be good financial move. Mercedes-AMG, Audi, and others would offer the “driver’s package” options to increase the top speed limit of certain vehicles from 250 to 280 or 300 km/h for tens of thousands of euros over the retail price.
My seventy something cousin hit the wrong pedal on their Model S while in a parking garage. A wall stopped her, but it was so violent she now won’t go near another EV. Totaled the car in like three feet as well.
You make a most salient point David.
I agree that something needs to be done to limit the acceleration but it should not be restricted to ICE levels. I have one of the overpowered EVs but I got it for the safety more than anything. I’m aware of the acceleration and it scares me but it has been useful to use bursts to evade bad drivers or get to speed on an onramp. I’m loving the control with one pedal driving, it has actually slowed me down and made my driving style more conservative but I guarantee that not all drivers will have the same appreciation for restraint.
More than anything, the increased momentum should require updated driver training and certification for their license. Having an awareness of the potential of your vehicle should be the key to not pushing it beyond safe levels.
Reading through a bunch of the comments, it seems tiered licenses are a common suggestion. Looking past the fact that you have to get the government involved to actually train/enforce those tiered levels, how are you going to stop the used car market?
I walk into a BHPH with a lower tier license but want to buy whatever car that’s above my approved level. You really think they are going so say no sorry, I can’t sell you this car? With all the shady shit they do already, I doubt they will go all moral.
Or if I go on FaceClub and want to buy a used performance car above my license level, do we really think a person is going to turn away that money? “I know what I have. Won’t respond to IS THIS AVAILABLE. Nobody with anything lower than a platinum license.”
What’s the recourse if that person does sell me that vehicle? Is the government really going to go after them? “You better give that kid his money back because he’s not allowed to drive that car.”
I agree something needs to be done but I feel like its so far gone (the education of teaching people how to drive/having so many distractions/not prioritizing driving versus being on the phone) that almost anything that is attempted is going to fail. We’re just in the bad of a state of drivers.
That’s a bad point. Nothing prevents you from buying any vehicle you have no licence for. It’s the police controlling you driving without a licence that does the enforcement.
And I guess that was the point of my rant. If The government were to impose a tiered level license that was only approved for certain cars, nothing would stop people from getting those cars. Then unless you were to get pulled over, a cop could say “you’re not allowed to have this car” and impound it I guess? But what happens if that person drives to fast, loses control and drives through a group of pedestrians? Would their response be “well they shouldn’t have had that car but we didn’t catch it because of our limited resources.”
It just seems like, to me at least, an insurmountable mountain to try and get the system right to be able to regulate people driving a certain mandated level car.
Registration is how you stop that. In every state in the union, cars have to be registered, and just make it so you can’t register without a valid license class. Then, if someone is driving without a license, actually enforce it.
Your making alot of sense.
As soon as I go a week without seeing an unlicensed vehicle (which probably correlates with an unlicensed driver and uninsured) then I can maybe beleive the government can do something to stop it. As it sits I never go a day of driving without seeing one.
A guy I worked with didn’t register licence or insure his vehicle for 5 years until the fees dropped off and never got impounded.
Same reason for think speeding cameras won’t work.
If you want to see how (bad) EV crashes can look like – look no further than the land in the East – China.
There are tons of videos of EVs going from 0 to 100+ in mere seconds to plow through pedestrians, store windows or a string of light poles.
Always the driver claims the car didn’t brake and only accelerated.
Always the data shows they were stomping on the gas 100% and thus launching their 4000 pound car and morphing it into a massive deadly hollow point projectile.
One problem is the lack of feedback ; in a regular car you will HEAR instantly when you stomp the throttle. And your response will be to let go. I hope. In an EV you think you’re hitting the brake (even though the feeling of the brake pedal is TOTALLY different from the throttle …. still not enough feedback) – while you’re actually telling the car to go postal.
Another thing which could help is to have just hard limits in city environments. Nope you cannot go faster than say 50 mph. Or accelerate within 4 seconds to that speed (so pedestrians have a chance to evade you and impacts won’t be as serious).
It might feel that you’re losing ‘freedom’ but the amount of damage and (deadly) accidents would be reduced by a fair bit.
And remember ; any idiot of any age can now drive this 4000+ pound projectile with easily 500 or more horsepower…
Fortunately the numbers of pedestrian deaths don’t justify such nanny state controls.
I love my Ioniq 6’s ability to just smoke people at stoplights. That said I also bought an EV for the efficiency aspect and watching the range hit pretty handily disincentivizes that behavior.
I do think over time these cars will get more boring. Hopefully by the time my kids are driving in 12 years.
Just because it has an insane amount of power does not mean it is used all the time. I chose a Model Y Performance over the Long Range primarily because it was just as, if not slightly more efficient than the car it replaced, matched handling more or less and offers more usable space for my tall self and family. I drive it in Chill mode 95% of the time and get on it in Sport mode as much as I did my other car, when safe to do so. There is basically no penalty to have the performance and the difference in drive modes is noticeable, just like it was in my previous car, making it easy and smooth to drive when around other people and can be a lot of fun when the timing is right. I drive a decent amount, 20k + miles per year, am by myself for the vast majority but this vehicle can handle almost every aspect very well. Carries 4-5 easily, lots of flexible cargo room, handles great, looks good in the performance trim but also blends in with the other 4 billion Model Ys on the road and it can blast me to the speed limit in a very fun way to provide some joy.
Back to point – when was the last time you were raced or passed by a Tesla or similar high powered car? Right – you weren’t. Or maybe the Boston area is an anomaly because the fastest cars on the road tend to be the underpowered driven at 10/10ths. The high dollar sports cars, luxury cars, fast EVs, etc are typically driven with care.
Practically every time I drive.
Ya. Seeing Group B cars kind of cars on the roads and my wife as a driver is the scariest shit I can imagine
I wouldn’t be opposed to built in selectable power caps. Something where the parent can set a car in “controlled mode” and the teenager driving only has access to half the total power available or some such idea. But that becomes really hard to deal with if the vehicle is sold or the owner passes away. Now how do you deal with the lock? Gotta go to a dealer to have it removed or something.
Eh, loathe as I am to say it, make the car settings configurable via app.
Mom buys car, mom can configure other accounts that have access, which can include “Send me alerts when this car moves” or “Limit horsepower to X.” Then the teen gets in the car, goes through whatever authentication process there is (key fob + mobile device authentication, key fob + PIN, whatever). BMW has had this forever where the key fobs have unique signatures and will set the seats/steering wheel angle/climate control to the programmed preference, wouldn’t be difficult at all to do the same for engine horsepower.
And for the “well, what if it’s just the fob available?” – have a “default” horsepower set somewhere that’s a lot lower so if your kid just swipes a key fob the car won’t move very fast, but it can still be moved in an emergency.
And lest this sound nanny-ish, well, 16yos are still children.
A Valet mode is something I as the owner can control. Other suggestions mentioned here have been draconian to say the least
Teen driver modes are already a thing, so I’m sure it wouldn’t be that hard to limit the power too. It’s possible some ICEs already do that, like valet mode does in the Hellcat.
High power subscription!!
Not just EVs. Even a run of the mill Camry would have serious performance cred if transplanted to the 70s/80s.
Cars have simply gotten faster and more powerful and driver capabilities have not kept up with the increased performance.
HARD AGREE. I don’t need a 16 year old driving a 3rd hand 3-ton projectile that goes from zero to oh-shit in 2.9 seconds.
Too bad, they’re already out there.
I was t-boned on the 5th of September by a 17-year old driving a leased 2024 Model Y.
So regular EVs are too powerful for teenagers, is now the time for EV MICROCARS? (with modern safety measures etc…etc… for the teens)
Nah, make all new drivers drive Miatas for the first 2 years. They will learn to prioritize what they take with them due to the lack of space, learn critical thinking to figure out how to maximize the space they have, and be forced to drive defensively because all the big trucks are in fact out to kill them.
always the answer
And the manual transmission keeps them engaged and off snapchat.
I thought afterwards I should have specified that they had to have a manual but was too lazy to edit it, but yes. 100%
Stick ’em in Renault Ami.
Also give me one too.
*Citroën 😉
Interesting idea, but between bigger batteries / higher output circuitry / more cooling requirements / lower range there’s still a penalty. No, it’s not as high as for ICE, but the main difference right now is that EVs are still expensive. The performance is a relatively affordable carrot EVs can use to make buyers feel like they’re getting what they paid for. Once they’re more mainstream, the HP on a Accord/Camry equivalent will probably only climb proportionally to the additional weight it has to carry.
Can find used polestars with 25-30K miles for about $25-30k
0-60 under 4 seconds for Civic money?
Hallelujah!
Tiered licensing based on power to weight ratio. If you really want to purchase a 700hp+ car you should be willing to get the appropriate training as well.
Let the horsepower wars rage on!
Yeah, we should absolutely have tiered licensing in the states. And that includes as people age up and their reflexes slow – it doesn’t have to be all-or-nothing, but someone who’s 87 with poor eyesight can be limited to 150hp vehicles or something instead of a 475hp metal brick.
Ideally it would result in a HP bell curve
The 150hp Camry will still scoot through a storefront.
Is there any evidence that an old in a 150hp vehicle is any less or more dangerous than that same driver in any other car?
It can still embed itself in the storefront wall if the driver mashes the pedal and holds it, but it may just smoke a tire or high-center on the parking divider. A fast AWD electric will go across a parking lot aisle and all the way into the store before the driver can react.
It’s not like a bullet. There is plenty of time to react.
EVs have a lot of software between the pedal and the motor. You may have to floor the pedal on Eco mode to not get rear-ended pulling away from a green light while sport mode will allow 0-60 in 4.5 seconds. Regenerative braking also does a more-than-ICE share of decelerating the vehicle once you let off the go pedal.
You would have to change so many settings to drive an EV though a storefront that it would be very hard to argue it was not premeditated.
Unless we’re going to start protecting every shopping plaza with concrete-filled bollards, just about any vehicle presents an equal threat to shoppers. (For the record, I think bollards are a fine idea.)
Hahahaha. We barely have driver training for anyone.
We will legitimately have flying cars before we have any sort of reasonable driver training and licensing.
Florida keeps installing roundabouts which are mentioned nowhere in the driver’s test.
Kinda like this
When I’m appointed Emperor Trump the Second, or as he would call it Emperor Two Trump, Tiered licensing.
You have appropriate licenses based on training, experience and testing.
EV makers keep talking about how their products aren’t cars, but software. Get in, scan your license, and appropriate power levels are unlocked. Heck, do it with facial recognition.
There are no federal standards for driving licenses, so the next appointee won’t really have the authority to do anything about it
I said Emperor.
My benevolent dictatorship
I’m as likely to vote for you as anyone else.
If you’re planning a violent takeover, I promise to watch it from the comfort of my home and swear allegiance to whomever wins.
From what I’ve been able to gather the main hurdle for fast EVs is the charge/discharge rate of the battery. This scales proportional to the size of the battery. With the push for longer ranges on EVs big batteries are needed. Once you have an EV with sufficient range giving it big power is essentially free. Well not free but low hanging fruit. The efficiency hit his minimal, so it is just the cost of beefier motors and inverters. Some of the electronics would be robust anyway for the purpose of needing to fast charge.
As for the speed/controllability aspect I’m not sure how concerned we need to be. There’s always been panic over speed, early cars had hilariously low speed limits because anything faster than a horse and buggy seemed uncontrollable. Today’s chassis controls continue to get more impressive and while the acceleration can be intense what is amazing is how controllable it all is.
The solution is in the software. Power delivery is tunable in the code. I am positive that an EV power delivery curve can be programmed to match that of an ICE car. Make the crazy power harder to access, only available for short bursts or limited times. Never invite the government or insurance to regulate anything unless all other options are exhausted.
Changing the power delivery may even help range. Reduce the power available and you will likely reduce the amperage used.
This pretty well encapsulates my opinion on this. One of the few smart things Dodge has done in recent memory was releasing the Hellcats with a power limiting black key and an unlimited red key. The same could be said of Tesla with the “Ludicrous” acceleration mode. The companies could still do their d!ck measuring while the cars could be manageable for the average driver.
While I’m not necessarily against all regulation, this just doesn’t seem like something the government would be capable of effectively regulating.
Really, we have copious legislation regarding misuse of motor vehicles.
No need to encourage the nanny state
And I wasn’t advocating for the government to dictate it, that’s what “this doesn’t seem like something the government would be capable of effectively regulating” meant.
The manufacturers could just take it upon themselves to make the full power modes user-unlockable (like the examples I cited) so Camry Dent Grandma or Plow through Farmers’ Market Grandpa don’t have 600hp at their disposal.
I’d be curious to hear what the environmental impacts are. If we are going to heavily electrify our car and truck fleets it’s going to take a lot of lithium and other elements. How much extra raw materials does it take to push a battery size from a 300hp car to a 500hp car? I think raw material shortages will eventually push us to make smaller more efficient batteries that aren’t 500hp+.
I believe the limiting factors on hp in EVs are motor capacity, as far as temperatures and rpm, and battery discharge rate rather than battery size in kwhs. Battery capacity just lets you keep the power going for longer. And software can lock out full capacity so the same size battery can deliver greater range at 300hp then, with the push of a button, deliver 500hp when desired. The need for greater range is pushing battery sizes up, not greater power.
And and environmental impacts of sturdier road infrastructure for the weight
the weight of EVs is really blown out of proportion. A model 3 is lighter than its Audi and BMW conterparts now. Everything’s gotten heavier
~300 hp Ioniq 5 has a 74khw battery
~600 hp Ioniq 5N has an 84kwh battery
So like 12% more materials in the batteries to double the horsepower.
So maybe 8% more battery to go from 300hp to 500hp.
Dangit, now I want a 500 hp CR-V.
It’s called a Model Y Performance and it can be yours if your income isn’t above $300k for married couple and have good state incentives for around $42-43k…
Due to repeated Tesla fires and the Cybertruck’s abysmal reliability, that will never happen.
“ And when you pair that power with a lack of a transmission, ”
What? There is as a minimum a couple of gears and a differential in a single motor EV. Some EVs have epicyclic gearboxes which are far from simple. Sure most of these are single ratio, but they are transmissions, and not particularly more efficient than the transmission in an ICE car.
*Traditional* transmission. And yes, an EV drivetrain is generally significantly more efficient than an ICE drivetrain.
No tradition transmission do not equal no transmission.
Take a Tesla: the motor has a gear on it, that gear meshes with compound gear which meshes with the gear on the diff. Two sets of gears meshing and one idler shaft. Simple and efficient. Then you have the exact same diff technology as a traditional car.
On a transverse manual ICE gearbox you’ve got the input shaft with a set of gears on it, which mesh with the gears on the idler shaft, which meshes with the gear on the diff. More gears meshing, but only two pairs actually transmitting any torque. It’s more inertia to accelerate, but its not so much less efficient that the EV one that you can just pretend the EV one doesn’t exist at all. Plus the ICE gears can be narrower as the peak torque is comparatively puny. I bet there is some cross-over between best ICE gearbox and worse EV gearbox in terms of efficiency.
I mean, of course there’s not “No transmission.” Power has to be transmitted somehow. The CV shafts aren’t coming off the motor output shafts with no reduction lol. But you’re right: worth making that abundantly clear!
But yeah, EV drivetrains are significantly more efficient for a number of reasons (not the least of which is the lack of a 90-degree ring/pinion power transfer in a diff thanks to EVs’ parallel motor/axle arrangement, and then there’s a lack of gear shifts, there are no losses in driveshafts (minus halfshafts), there aren’t as many churning losses since there aren’t multiple gearboxes (or a torque converter), and on and on). I’ll see if I can chat with an OEM to get more exact figures, but I bet it’s not insignificant.
Still, I do agree that an EV’s simple gearbox isn’t a primary factor in why EVs are so quick, but it helps.
(For those reading this interested in learning more about how EV gearboxes and just EVs in general work, read this deep dive that I worked with David Twohig on).
“ (not the least of which is the lack of a 90-degree ring/pinion power transfer in a diff thanks to EVs’ parallel motor/axle arrangement, and then there’s a lack of gear shifts, there are no losses in driveshafts (minus halfshafts), there aren’t as many churning losses since there aren’t multiple gearboxes (or a torque converter), and on and on). ”
Nearly all of that doesn’t apply to a transverse ICE manual transmission. Not all cars are Jeeps.
Agreed! The all too common practice of driving like our asses are on fire has gotten out of hand. Today’s streets have become like the wild West in terms of lawlessness and lack of traffic enforcement. Ever increasing insurance premiums are becoming unsustainable and traffic fatalities are on the rise. It seems the 0-60 times of an EV have become the most important specification advertised by manufacturers, even more so than efficiency, when trying to market vehicles sold under the clean and green banner. While I’m certainly not an advocate for government oversight, I would expect the feds will act before the manufacturers take any steps to reign in the ludicrous acceleration these vehicles offer.
How do you mass-market efficiency? There isn’t even a good commonly-understood standard measurement for EV efficiency. I’ve seen mention of MGPe which I don’t understand. Then there’s miles/kwh which I think I kind of understand. Neither of those measures takes range into account – a spec most people don’t care about when shopping for an ICE vehicle but is quite important in an EV.
You’re going to have to show me some supporting evidence before I believe that ‘fast’ EVs are the reason for increased traffic fatalities. It may be due to heavy vehicles, but most heavy passenger vehicles on the road are not EVs. My co-worker’s Tundra weighs almost 3000 pounds more than my EV.
I have a jet ski with insane power. It goes zero to sixty in something silly and hilarious and frightening all the same time. And I love it. But I also comes with a learner key that limits the available power for novice users. Why can’t cars do the same?
Teslas have a mode where you can set a maximum speed (and I think limit acceleration/performance), and lock it with a passcode. Other brands probably do something like that also.
I think some cars have a “valet mode” or some sort of thing.
Yeah, I have a 300HP SeaDoo that tries to tear my arms off and I pretty much use it in “Eco Mode” all the time. It’s actually hard to use that much power for very long.
I also have a c4 ZR1 that has a selectable power switch thingy. So it’s not unheard of. I think some Hellcats have them too. But I bet most people would just leave it on full power (I do) so I’m not sure that solves the posited issue. It would require someone to have the foresight to keep it turned down.