I certainly think I do my part to point out the issues and hype surrounding automated and semi-automated driving, but I also think its important to be honest and realistic about the issues, because there are many, and we need to take them seriously. If we start making a big deal out of lesser problems we run the risk of drowning out real complaints and issues, and that would be bad. Unfortunately, I think that may be what happened recently with a recent video that went viral about a man “trapped” in a Waymo that was confusedly circling around a parking lot.
The incident happened in December in Arizona as Mike Johns was attempting to go to the Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix, and was first posted to the inane workplace bragging/creepy business-dating site LinkedIn. I’m not exactly sure why this ended up on multiple sites just a few days ago, but for whatever reason it really took off, and the fact that it did so leaves me a bit unsettled.
First, you should probably see the video:
Okay, so we have our man sitting there, and yes, it absolutely does appear that his Waymo got confused and is circling that parking l0t, endlessly and fecklessly seeking something it will never find. In that sense, how is that Waymo different than any of us, really? Well, I suppose one way is that we generally don’t have people inside us who need to catch a plane to Los Angeles.
Now, he was definitely in a very confused Waymo car, and he definitely needed to get to the airport, but was he actually trapped? That’s the big hook most of the stories were hyping up:
Also a lot about “nearly” missing his flight, which is another way to say “made his flight on time.” Still, this is definitely a weird situation. But, again, was he actually trapped in that car?
In the video, he gets on a voice call with a Waymo support person, who asks him to go to the “My Trip” portion of the Waymo app, but Johns cuts her off and asks her to stop the car remotely. I suspect she was going to have him click the “Pull Over” button on the app and on the rear-seat screen in the car, which is designed to instruct the car to pull over at the next safe opportunity. You can see it in action here, also in Phoenix:
Even without Johns pushing the button that would have done exactly what he wanted to do, if you watch the end of Johns’ video up there you can see that the remote operator does bring the car to a stop. I really don’t think that Johns was ever actually trapped in that car.
Now, that said, would I have milked a situation like this for all I could had I been the one trapped in a circling Waymo? Hell yeah, I would have! I get it! It’s exciting, it’s fun, and the attention can be useful, but the reporting around all of this has been pretty hyperbolic. This is from a SF Gate story:
“I got a flight to catch. Why is this thing going in a circle? I’m getting dizzy,” Johns said. “It’s circling around a parking lot. I got my seat belt on. I can’t get out of the car. Has this been hacked? What’s going on? I feel like I’m in the movies. Is somebody playing a joke on me?”
The customer service representative told Johns to open his Waymo app and that she would try to pull the car over, but seemed to struggle with getting the vehicle to stop.
Look at that last bit – “seemed to struggle with getting. the vehicle to stop.” Really? How? If you watch the video, Johns asks the Waymo rep to stop the car, and seconds later it comes to a stop. It’s right there at the end of the video. It’s also worth noting that Johns is not still trapped in the car, cold and hungry, and no assistance was needed to extract him. He just got out of the car.
Look, Waymo has had its share of problems, and automated driving vehicles, while impressive, are by no means finished. A Waymo getting confused in a parking lot really isn’t that shocking. Taking a Waymo to the airport is like getting a ride with your stupidest friend, but a very obedient friend. They get confused easily. In the case of the Waymo, this is the inherent problem with any AI system: it’s not really intelligence, and it has no idea why it does anything because it’s a machine that is not aware.
This very likely will not be the last time someone has five minutes of their lives wasted by a confused robotaxi that doesn’t realize it’s doing something objectively stupid. But to report on this like it’s someone trapped helplessly in a robot car that has gone haywire is just bad reporting, and that’s going to bite us all in the ass when real problems with automated vehicles come to light as they get deployed more and more.
Remember when that Cruise robotaxi hit a woman and dragged her under the car? That’s the kind of thing that deserves this level of alarm, not a guy made to do a few laps around a parking lot.
We need to be smart about how we report on these things; I don’t blame Johns, who, as an IT guy working in AI would have lots of reasons to play this up, even just for fun. But media reporting on things like this should know better, and try their best to not turn it into some alarmist nonsense.
I know it’s hard. It’s fun to be alarmist! But this is too important.
Of course he was cold and hungry! It’s right in the topshot! Hes wearing a beanie!!!!
“Remember when that Cruise robotaxi hit a woman and dragged her under the car? That’s the kind of thing that deserves this level of alarm, not a guy made to do a few laps around a parking lot.”
Yes I do. That Cruse pulled over in 20 feet which was quickly as possible to remove itself from the flow of traffic. The woman was not visible from the drivers seat and no human driver would have been expected to behave any differently. I’d go so far as to say many human drivers would have simply shrugged and driven on, oblivious to any strange noises from under the car. Had that taxi been driven by a human there would have been no story, at most a quickly forgotten blurb in the papers.
I also remember it was a meatbag driven Altima which hit that woman first, hard enough to throw her under that Cruse and then that meatbag Altima fled the scene and remains at large. THAT hit and run is the part of the story which deserves this level of alarm but everyone is so focused on the the robot they forget all about the meatbag.
You’re right, it should have dragged her 20 feet.
The point is the meat bag that hit her in the first place hit the gas. How do you think she would have fared had she been under that car?
Probably not great, but the point is that the autonomous car is the one that dragged her, and it shouldn’t have.
My point is it did not do so intentionally. It knew SOMETHING had happened and pulled over as quickly as possible to assess, thus removing itself from the flow of traffic.
Lets say instead that AV had been driven by a mobility limited human for whom exiting in the middle of the street would be perilous at best, physically impossible at worst. How might that mobility limited human have handled the situation better?
You can argue all the fringe cases you want but autonomous vehicles have billions upon billions of development dollars spent to make them seem like they can drive themselves, therefore they should be damn near perfect. Humans (for the most part) have an extraordinary ability to adapt to a situation they haven’t encountered before. AV’s do not. They get confused and make potentially harmful, if not fatal, mistakes. All humans have to do to legally get behind the wheel, in the US, is pass an extremely basic driving test. As a result, you have humans who do very dangerous things in cars and make terrible decisions. Unfortunately you can’t control stupid people. AV’s will purposefully plow themselves into emergency vehicles, drive around in circles, run over pedestrians just because of faulty software, software that has an insane amount of money spent to develop. No excuse as far as im concerned.
So what’s your excuse for the meat bag who left that woman for dead?
You must not have read my last comment, but it has been fun arguing with you fellow random person on the internet/possible robot defending AV’s.
Your comment is not an excuse. It is letting perfect be the enemy of good.
Alarmism is all that’s left of most “news media” these days.
We also have the opinion panels for discussion of the “facts”.
Well, he was trapped in the car up until the point where the operator stopped it, right?
You’re right about everything else though. It was hyped up (news media sure does love hype!) and yeah, these cars are dumb. They should probably have a big red Emergency Stop button. A real physical button, not some crap on a screen. None of this “pull over when safe” crap. Just a STOP RIGHT THE FUCK NOW button.
Just what you’d want hysteria prone passengers access to on freeways and bridges.
I dunno about that, sometimes it’s safer outside of the car than in it.
Lessee:
Middle of a busy freeway, inside a stopped car
Or
Middle of a busy freeway, standing alone.
Tough call.
Really? Those are the only two options that would ever present themselves where there would be an emergency? Is that all you can think of? Ok, good luck getting out of your Waymo on fire when you’re calling tech support. Freeway or not, you’re fucked.
Why are you on the phone with tech support? Call 911 yourself. You can do that since you aren’t driving. Let them deal with tech support while you kick out the rear window. You can do that too.
Kick the rear window out? You have quite the imagination, John McClaine! What able people who aren’t able to kick windows out?
Yeah…imagination:
https://only1autoglass.com/blog/entryid/1176/how-to-break-auto-glass-in-case-of-an-emergency
This is how easy it is to kick out a side window:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gaTy0lkjuP0
“What able people who aren’t able to kick windows out?”
Kicking is a last resort but its I think the most instinctual one. What’s recommended is to use the headrest or whatever hard thing might be found.
These are things that are fine when there isn’t an emergency happening. I didn’t see Rachel Ray kicking out a window in your video. You assume that everyone is able to do this and that it’s still a better option than just having an Emergency Stop Button.
You can have an emergency stop button too you know. You could even put one in a human driven taxi. Of course that human might have disabled or overridden the button and you’ll have to kick out the window.
Never been in a Waymo, but I would assume I you opened the door while it was moving, it would stop. Can’t imagine child locks would be enabled. Seems like a failure point, i at least wouldn’t risk. That being said, I’m only speculating
where are eX-Drivers when you need them?
Would unbuckling the seatbelt make it stop?
I don’t believe so, but I can ask some friends.
SF Chronicle and SF Gate have articles on how blind people like Waymo (among other things, they allow guide dogs, unlike other ride sharing ATM). Imagine if you were blind and in a car that kept on going in circles.
So yes, it was milked for all its worth (what isn’t?), but it is a concern.
I appreciate your views on this Torch, and in my opinion it only adds to your credibility when you do skewer self-driving technology (as is the norm).
It was kind of amusing, and obviously some software bug made the thing drive around in circles for a few minutes. As others have mentioned, you can just open the door or go into the app to stop the car. I wonder if you could also yell, “WAYMO, STOP!” assuming it listens to you like Alexa or Siri. (I don’t know, I’ve never been in one)
I had very similar thoughts. He was so excited to be making a video that could go viral.
there it is….
They covered this on my local news channel and after the first anchor finished the story the other anchor just blurts out, “Look kids, Big Ben, Parliament” but nobody got it.
That’s outstanding! Maybe should have added ‘again’?
If it’s on the internet there’s a 98% chance it’s a lie.
^this is the 2% that is true^
It’s on LinkedIn so the chances are even higher.
*moved comment to a more germane thread*
I mean, it could be worse…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-trd_f6j3eI
Oh man, I completely forgot about Jared!
I’m honestly wondering if this guy watched that episode and thought, “that could be me!”
Drama for Clicks.
I’m so over it.
Very sus, gets in robotaxi, seems ‘unfamiliar’ with ways to stop said robotaxi manually, instead just films it while waiting on support to stop robotaxi. Seems like the type that if their car navigation told them turn right, and it was a brick wall to the right, well looks like we’re hitting a brick wall today.
As for LinkedIN, I totally agree. I joined it in 2014 or so when I was job hunting. At the time, it was a way to find a job, keep up with professional stuff and the like. I’ve never been on facebook, or myspace or instagram or whatever and LinkedIn just felt a lot more professional than any of those things.
Then 2016 happened. It’s like as soon as Trump started talking, there were a 100 parrots on LinkedIn.
My company and many of my customers still used LinkedIN for professional stuff. I still find that there are a lot more job opportunities posted there than other places if I get back to job searching.
But, the amount of MAGA trolls is insane.
And it doesn’t make sense
Look, I don’t give a flying fart who you voted for, what religion you are (if any), what stuff is in your pants and what you do with it in your spare time. As long as you do your job in a way that allows me to do mine. I don’t share any of that information about me on LinkedIN, because it is none of the business of my company or any other company that might be interested in hiring me.
But it seems like every other post is some yahoo really bragging about all of these details. Which, even if I agree with you 100% in the personal details, I also 100% don’t want to work with you. Because people that brag about that crap are the type that spend more time trying to find arguments to create than doing their job.
Yes, this
It’s too late to write the elaborate joke I want, but just imagine some sad fucking simping for Elon Musk, about what a genius he was for pulling a statistic, methodology, or metric out of his ass and bleating like the loudest idiot sheep at the front of the flock (for a time) in hopes he’ll friend you on LinkedIn.
That’s linkedin.
And almost none of these people work for SpaceX or Telsa.
Modern large companies have no time for HR problems.
I had a recent boss’s boss which I overheard talking to my boss. “I want my life simple, make it simple. I can find a replacement, I just can’t keep just having the same issues coming up month after month.” I knew who he was talking about. Dude had mad skills, but didn’t show up sometimes until after lunch and tended to make offensive statements when he did. It would cost twice what we paid him to replace him, but it just wasn’t worth the effort to my boss’s boss to deal with that BSery regularly.
When I started my career, almost all the customers were in the Southeastern US. Even outside of this region, there was a culture associated with the industry that was a throw back to the 1970s in so many ways. My company had 3 offices and 2 of them were full of rednecks and roughnecks.
Now my customers can be from all over the globe. My current employer has over 400 offices in something insane like 50 countries. Never mind the cultural shift in the US in the last 30 years, but the fact is that that culture was NEVER acceptable to customers and colleagues in these 50 different countries.
And the people that have adapted to this reality have jobs. And the ones that don’t alternate between begging for new ones on LinkedIn or fartposting MAGA crap on it.
“I joined it in 2014 or so when I was job hunting. At the time, it was a way to find a job, keep up with professional stuff and the like.”
Oh LinkedIn was a synchophant cesspool even then.
But lacked the focus that it does today.
There was plenty of focus on corporate ass kissing and Barnum effect.
Still is, but now with this weird obsession of forgetting about brown nosing and to start ranting about how great Trump is.
I don’t understand it. How can you be a super brown nosing whiny corporate dude in one post and making all sorts of racist, sexist, and other BS comment in another. Don’t they know it takes nothing to see ALL that you post there?
Much as I am loathe to point out Trump won the election. Some of those sfates were “solidly republican”
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-ELECTION/RESULTS/zjpqnemxwvx/
So in one of those states there’s a good probability the people to whom those “super brown nosing whiny corporate dude in one post and making all sorts of racist, sexist, and other BS comment” people report to are also “super brown nosing whiny corporate dude in one post and making all sorts of racist, sexist, and other BS comment” people right on up that corporate ladder. Its just another form of corporate brown nosing.
Look I get it, there are a lot of Trump supporters. And they seem to be well represented in management positions. However, there are also people in management that didn’t vote for him. Shoot, the big guy in my office didn’t vote because he’s not a US citizen. Which gets to the point I am trying to make. The world is small now. Having a boss from a blue state or even overseas is commonplace now. Just as common or more so than red state people. Maybe your current company is very red in focus. But corporate buy outs happen, bosses retire or move on and you don’t want a reputation for anything other than doing your job well.
If what you say is true then corporate Darwin will sort this out. The subject of that Darwinism however clearly are banking on being the beneficiaries of that Darwinism, not it’s victims.
And they are probably right. How many such folks have been flushed out over the past 8 years vs the typical person getting a pink slip?
Companies aren’t stupid. They can go online and see who you are. There seems to be an entire group of Americans that learned all their online social skills from the Jackass movies and try to out do each other in stupidity and weirdness.
When they start begging for jobs, why in the hell would I want to hire a Jackass? Nobody is impossible to find a replacement for.
The secret is to be more of a pain to replace than a pain to keep. And companies absolutely monitor what you say online. In a way, it sucks, but it’s reality and venting on LinkedIn where it is much easier to see this BSery is really dumb. And if I was in a hiring position, I don’t want a dumb employee that might make racist jokes in front of a customer of that race.
And yet here we are, consequence free.
I am careful about how I say stuff and what I say. Even when I am off the clock. I never say anything super political, or religious or anti-any group.
Part of this is my nature to avoid conflict, but a major part is my entire career I’ve had the sword of Damocles over my head. I’ve worked for companies that had a lay off every month, even in busy times more than once. I’ve been laid off more than a few times. I’m not going to risk being laid off because I spent 30 minutes drunk and cussing out management on a site I didn’t think they visited.
I even am careful on the use of cuss words. Again, part of this is my nature. I grew up religious and still am privately strong in my belief and faith. But I do cuss and curse a LOT more in person than online. I’ve worked with guys that have a history of working in construction for years. If you know these guys, if they had to bleep them out, the resulting Morse Code would still earn a hard R rating. But I don’t want something electronic to show management how foul my language can be.
PS, there is a difference between cussing and cursing. I learned to cuss from my construction coworkers. I learned to curse from the old ladies in church.
Well good for you. Hope your good behavior pays off.
I’m Gen X. This has seriously impacted how I interact with companies.
It took forever to get a job out of college. Every company had 10 Boomer applicants with 10 years experience available for every Gen X applicant. When I found a job, I was on the list to be laid off every month, but the combination of being inexpensive to keep, making good money for the company, and keeping my head down allowed me to miss about 20 layoffs per one I got caught in.
Now I work in a deep red state and a lot of my coworkers are deep red as well. The culture is very deep red. But we were purchased by an international company with offices all over the world. Upper management would be extremely Blue by US standards. I KNEW that they would replace the local management (which had several good old boys in it) with their own managers. Which has happened recently. But my record doesn’t show red or blue. Only Green. I’ve made a lot of money for the company over the years and show every sign of continuing that into the future. The combination of being a profitable employee with being very unlikely to bring some sort of weird lawsuit for being a weirdo means I have avoided the giant sweep of replacements for experienced personnel that was bound to happen with the transition of management.
I will fight for what I believe in, but I’ve got a limited set of things that I will fight for. Words aren’t on the list.
Well that sounds like a good strategy. Keep it up.
Well let me tell you of a story ‘bout a man named Mikey
On a tragic and fateful day,
He ordered up a Waymo, kissed his wife and family,
And headed out Sky Harbor way.
But did he ever emerge,
No he never emerged
And his tummy is still all churned
He may circle forever in his cab from Waymo
he’s the man that never emerged.
Mikey punched up his fare in the app on his I-Phone
And rode off to catch a plane,
When he got to Sky Harbor
That Waymo kept a circling
Mikey started to go insane.
But did he ever emerge,
No he never emerged
And his tummy is still all churned,
He may circle forever in his cab from Waymo,
he’s the man that never emerged.
Now all night long Mikey rides round the airport
Crying what will become of me?
How can I escape this self driving nightmare
Can’t somebody set me free?
But did he ever emerge,
No he never emerged
And his tummy is still all churned,
He may circle forever in his cab from Waymo,
he’s the man that never emerged.
Mikey’s wife goes down to Sky Harbor parking every day at quarter past twelve,
And through an open window she screams “push the pullover button and you can stop this thing by yourself!”
But did he ever emerge,
No he never emerged
And his tummy is still all churned
He may circle forever in his cab from Waymo
he’s the man that never emerged.
Now you riders of Waymo don’t you think it’s a scandal
how poor Mikey was trapped this way?
Fight for a manual release to get the doors wide open,
And let poor Mikey finally catch his plane.
Or else he never emerge,
No he’ll never emerge,
And his tummy will stay all churned.
He may circle forever in his cab from Waymo
he’s the man that never emerged.
COTD
If there’s ever a “Folkswagen” level Autopian membership, you’re first in line! Perks include a Kingston Trio fan club membership card, a sandwich, and a nickel for poor Charlie’s MTA fare.
Thanks for the earworm. I love that song. Kingston. Trio is great.
Well, his alarmism (is that a word?) netted him a free ride and viral fame. So mission accomplished.
Just needed a cone placed on the hood 🙂
When I first saw this video, I doubted if he even had a flight to catch and just wanted to make an over-exaggerated video of him being in a Waymo going around in circles
I would’ve opened the door to see if it’d stop, but it wouldn’t have made for an interesting video
I know it’s hard. It’s fun to be alarmist! But this is too important.
Gotta hate it when your Waymo carks it at mate’s farm.
Customer service people are typically trained to show users how to do something themselves — it reduces support costs in the long run.
Also, if you open any door on a Waymo it’ll immediately stop.
Everyone wants to be famous for 15 minutes in America.
When the “news’ cycle is “slow” media tends to piggy back and run the inane in order to fill the evening newscast or website. Happens everyday, til some ass hat pulls something bigger.
Looking at New Orleans and Las Vegas here…
Doesn’t even have to be a slow news cycle these days I mean, LA is on fire and our president-elect is threatening to invade our allies. I think we’re all just a bit numb to it all anymore.
“LA would not be burning if they had just raked and cleaned up the forest and underbrush.” (Mr # 45)
The never ending bullshit from Mr. Orange faced convicted felon never ends.
Next four years will be an unending shit show for certain.
I feel like this is one man’s “inside joke/satire” for his friends and coworkers, but the media just pounced on it. Because everything posted for any reason is potential news now.
Would have been a lot more fun if the cops showed up with guns drawn, screaming “sir, stop the car and exit the vehicle.”
Then we’ve got a story!
Throw down the spike strip, and prep the Tasers.