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I certainly don’t think that first piece was offensive,just exaggerated and funny.
To me at least,David can seem like he’s a bit to worried about stepping on toes and tending to edit some pieces a bit to death. I get why,and I respect that,but the worst thing you can to with this great team is to kill the fun vibe they bring with them.
England’s Car magazine had one columnist whose gig was going on all the car maker junkets, and writing up the food, the drink, and the accommodations, with one line like, “The back seat of the new Peugeot 504 is very comfortable”, everything else was about the freebies.
I…I ain’t even mad, that’s just hilarious. If you’re gonna grift, at least be open about the grift.
Reading through this I guess I’ll just comment that all of the “Ed. Note: blah blah blah – DT” that I always see in too many Autopian articles feels most of the time unnecessary and ultimately detracts from the articles. It just bothers me for some reason. I think about it every time I see one of those but haven’t said anything because maybe I’m not a typical Autopian member, maybe a lot of people like the sort of community produced feeling it implies. But yeah.
I know what you’re saying, but I don’t mind it…I guess I’m used to it and like it since it’s different. Now the “GENIUSES” line on the other hand is like beating a dead horse
The reason 6 is funnier than 5, according to the late great comedian Patrice O’Neill, is hard constants are funnier.
Years ago in a special he did a joke about the DC Sniper, and the punchline referred to him as a “n***** in a Buick.” And then he stopped and said, “By the way, I know it was a Chevy, but hard constant is funnier.”
I have a bone to pick ⛏️⚒️ with Matt. I spent 25 years in newspaper circulation. We started at midnight. We laughed at the Army slogan we do more before 9am than most people do all day. We claim we did more by 6am than the Army does by 9am.
If you start working at midnight lunch ???????? ???? is the same as after work beers except we did 8 hours. We knew Editorial is the weakest of the publication industry.
Newspaper, not magazine!
Six is the funniest number because sex. I picked up the joke right away than lost it when it seemed blogging was harder. I thought whaaaaaat? But yeah monthly mags one article and you were done. Also if you were synchronized or symphasized or satirized or syndicated you were gold.
And yet it’s “Florence”. And Martinis.
David E. Davis Jr. has entered the chat.
Or Jimmy J Johnson?
I am here for the comedic, intelligent edge, not careful, vanilla stuff.
I think it would be a mistake trying to make everything fit a strict (maybe more watered down) standard. I am sure the overall feel of the site can stay, while keeping individualism alive, which is what you guys are already doing.
– Matt is a prickly, edgy jerk. Or was that Adrian? (Is this mean? I don’t mean to!)
– Jason is on acid at least some of the time
– DT is definitely a square
– Mercedes is just sweet
– sorry to miss others
But that’s what makes this crew great. And I didn’t even mention any actual talent or qualities yet!
But overthinking this would lead to reading Matt stories in DT’s voice and that’s depressing. The final version of the story is weaker in my opinion because it’s too spoon-fed.
I’m not saying Kevin James is not funny (someone should tell him though), I am just sayin’ John Mulaney has the crowd I wanna be in.
Thanks for the shoutout! (I’m others)
Thanks for the note! There is still plenty of comedic, intelligent edge here (I hope), but also we really don’t want to be another Jalopnik. That site exists and more power to them, it’s just that we want to be a smart place that makes people feel welcome and is careful not to make anyone feel on the outside.
There’s a ton of edge on the Internet for the sake of edge, and cruelty for the sake of cruelty and that feels very un-Autopian. This was a silly little aside and David didn’t even change it, he merely added a parenthetical since it wasn’t necessary to the piece.
While David and I don’t always agree, I always appreciate that it’s David’s main job to make sure this place feels like The Autopian. Having open and honest conversations about these things when it’s something ultimately very small helps us be better prepared when it’s something not-so-small.
I think most writers would tell you that there are few places with as much freedom to write what you want, how you want it than this place. There’s little risk of me writing in David’s voice or vice-versa, but there’s always a risk of one of us absentmindedly offending someone and I’ve also suggested tweaks to David’s writing to avoid doing so as well. And then Jason, usually, adds offensive things of his own just to keep things in balance.
I get it. It’s hard to keep a balance and easy to get over the top. You guys have a good balance – keep it up. Grateful for you to have us part of the conversation.
You guys do a great job here, the tone feels perfect to me. David, Torch, and Mercedes are treasures.
I am about done with Jalopnik, they have jumped the shark over there and seem to be leaning into actively hating cars. And having been put back in the grays seemingly for calling one of the writers out on his nonsense, I think I’ve finally had enough.
The site is a shell of its former self. Even if The Autopian takes the high road (the correct road), and never officially says that, we all know it’s the entire reason The Autopian exists.
There’s good car stuff here, and we’re here because we like good car stuff.
That said, there’s a distinct lack of cat stuff, and that makes me very sad.
It is sad, it was a great site for so long.
Don’t worry about Jalopnik they do not have anyone who likes or drives cars and are more political than auto oriented. I saw an article from them recently in my feed and it was about we need to start ramping up fees on cars to subsidize buses despite the fact 95% of the country isn’t suitable for mass transit. They are stuck in their own little world like a whackamole game sticking their head out only to duck when the facts contradict what they are saying.
A good comment would be the best thing about Jalopnik ran out of there May 32nd. I appreciate the loyalty shown here but sooner or later you can’t protect an idiot from their actions.
95% of the population can’t use mass transit? Or is it that 95% of the land isn’t suitable for mass transit? Or are both incorrect?
I’ve had lunch beers and lunch Scotches. On occasion, lunch has turned into an afternoon of it. Good times. These days it’s much rarer because times change, and that’s what I took as the point of the joke. I didn’t see any meanness in any version of it. But it is nice to see that there is a lot of thought and consideration that goes into producing each and every article here. You guys do good work.
I think lunch beers were more prevalent in general. As a fresh young engineer 20 years ago (!) we’d occasionally get lunch with the really old engineers and they always ordered a beer or two. It blew my mind.
This is true. I worked for an engineering company a couple decades ago that kept a refrigerator stocked with beer for lunch breaks. It was very strange to me to see engineers doing complex calculations with a beer or two next to them, and I think enough clients roaming the halls complained and by 2007 alcohol was banned from the office. It certainly made me question the work of some of the folks around me…
So I guess that’s when gummies took over? /s
Gosh, I remember one of the Toyota Gazoo Racing guys in Germany telling me that they had beer in the lunch room for way longer than you’d expect. I dunno, I’ve written a lot* and wrenched a lot with a beer or two. Just don’t go for heavy stuff and you’re fine.
(*not during work hours unless someone else okays it, for the record!)
At my first job, in defense, 20(!) years ago the team would all go to lunch on Tuesdays at the closest bar to the office. The managers would stay all afternoon, and not bat an eye if the rest of us did too.
Matt, you were in the right here from the very beginning. Blowing the joke out did exactly that, and it wasn’t even that much of a joke – lunch beers *would* be had. So what?
What’s “mean” about that? It’s an inaccurate descriptor, even just semantically, like a “cheap price.” A price isn’t cheap, it’s low; the item is cheap. The reference to lunch beers might be “unfair” or “inaccurate” (of which it is neither), but it’s not mean.
I understand and respect your stance on this nothingburger, because it’s actually very much a somethingburger when lensed hrough editorial discretion, accuracy, tone, and trust in your readership.
(Written with all due respect for DT, just, he and I disagree on rather a few things and this is just so conservative and cautious I think the German side needs a little PB Blaster if it’s squeaking over this.)
It’s also worth mentioning context here. There’s historically been a big division between print and online journalists, with the latter having taken over and the “old timers” having been left behind.
The initial “joke” in the context of years of bloggers telling print journalists they’re dinosaur boomers seemed rude/snarky/disrespectful, and not really like a joke.
We keep it civil around here.
But like I told Matt, none of this is an exact science, but we’re gonna keep writing in a way that’s humble and doesn’t fall into the snark-trap that captures far too many other publications.
[sprays PB blaster on funny bone]
Curse your disarming down-to-earthness about this. And more seriously, thanks for sharing your mindset about it. While I still disagree, that definitely contextualizes the thinking behind your stance and makes it more relatable. Thanks for wading out into the comments to engage in civil discourse.
Yeah. Like the little brother you wanna slap. But you can’t cause…
Please, it’s “This is hyperbole for comedic purposes”. Come on, outside of Natural Born Killers was Rodney ever dramatic?
He has a moment in Back to School.
I’m definitely a David Tracy fan, but I will echo one complaint I’ve seen here is that he puts in too many editor notes. It’s the highest number I’ve ever seen in a website. I’ve met engineers who seem to want explain every littlething to ensure there’s no chance of misunderstanding. But these aren’t technical briefings, they’re articles for entertainment.
Sigh…. as a fellow engineer that is our habit and lot in life – clarity. Occasionally the notes are distracting, but normally not and they clarify opinion from fact at times. It is also interesting to see how the sausage is made: rather than supplying a fully polished piece, they supply editors notes to enhance or refute the writers at times. I find it fascinating and more transparent.
I’d rather see his editor’s notes than an editor eviscerating a writers efforts due to disagreement on content or conclusion.
Bingo^.
That’s a big part of it.
I think that once pushed an article of mine from “quite information heavy but gave you a rough understanding of all the issues at play” to “overwhelming with too much details”.
I understand that they’re not for everyone, but they’re there for a very strategic reason beyond just me inserting my opinion, and they were written into the site’a “constitution” on day one, again, for strategic reasons.
Sometimes I do just chime in, though!
I was seven years old when Johnny Carson retired, why the hell do I miss him so much?
Because nobody did it better. I see his old interviews, etc on the internet and he was the undisputed master I recall from my childhood.
He could do everything – sketch comedy, insightful and intelligent interviews, and standup, with that barrage of jokes at the beginning. Most late night hosts that followed excel in one of those areas, maybe two, but nobody has been able to match Carson in totally dominating all of them.
I was in my teens when he retired, but he was the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. I still see his old bits and marvel at them.
yeah, every now and then, I’ll go on a kick where I’ll watch a lot of old Carson clips in succession, there really is something undeniably special about him, you get why the other networks basically gave up even attempting to compete after awhile.
I would argue a little that ‘back in the day’, writers had to do some more leg work for each article as the internets was less prevalent. This site’s not too bad about it as you always reference and provide links, and then add some insight, but some sites just copy paste from other sites, I follow a few different ones of FB and it’s like as soon as something breaks they’re all posting nearly identical headlines.
So yeah, they may have been putting out less words, but getting those words pretty much on their own, to try and be the first one with the scoop could’ve been a little trickier, so I can definitely see David’s point on it coming across kind of snarky saying it used to be ‘easier’ back in the day.
But that also seems fairly millenial vs boomer kind of attitude and I’m over here as a Gen Z wondering why nobody’s wearing flannels anymore so what do I know.
The old Lighting Site can be very bad for that, just copying from some other news site w/o reference or verification.
It was not easier back in the day, late Gen X.
To the point, I think what Hardibro is getting at isn’t that writing a piece was easier, but that you could make a good living writing very few of them.
Won’t dispute that. A daily website and monthly glossy are very different animals. We as consumers sometimes forget that, being so spoiled in this modern life. Mercedes writes as many articles a week as they used to in a month, but I doubt the pay per piece (or word) is near the same.
This is not a criticism of Autopian pay policies (which I am blind to) but a general statement as to the world we all now live in.
Yeah, the writers here bust their humps and write massive amounts of quality content every day, and I doubt any of them is rolling in it.
It totally is millennial vs boomer, and there should be no “versus.” We’re all family here [clinks Corona].
Except for the damn kids that keep skateboarding on the sidewalks
I still wear flannels. Got over ten of them! One I bought new in 1980 at Oakland Mall.
I assume the C/D Montana reference is JPIII. Unfortunate because he is one of the most talented I have ever read. This site manifests much of that old 80’s 90’s C/D spirit in many ways. No cows are sacred. The trip is as (if not more) interesting than than the car. It is as much a much a travel magazine as a car magazine. Write eloquently yet accessibly. Keep the reader engaged.
Most of the articles I recall years later (regular reader since 1990) the CAR was not the central focus. It was the voyage: Alaska, Borneo, Mexico. The experience resonates long after the car is obsolete. The world was smaller pre-internet and they brought it to us. I still want to experience these places, maybe more than some 30 year old car (although I want try them out too). Mercedes and David in particular excel at this sort of thing.
Take us to the PLACE, not just the car.
Its the STORY, not just the car. I don’t want this site lose that. I’d rather read wrenching woes than some meaningless new press release. You are doing well, don’t mess it up!!
No disrespect to JPIII at all, just an acknowledgment that these are different worlds sometimes.
Did not take it as disrespect and yes, the world is different now.
A few thoughts 1. The first version was in no way mean or even hyperbolic- to a class of journalists this was just how it was, and this is commentary not bitterness. Drinking at lunch was a thing for most professionals when I started my career – not every lunch, but when something good or bad happened – I guess you had to be there, 2. Is there some way we can push on David to tune his humor muscles, he really seems more uptight in these back & forths than I expect he is in person. 3. That guy in Montana was/is one of the best automotive journalists around, if you are as good as he is you can call the shots. 4. The work effort required was highly specific to your role and the place you were working – if you were a correspondent at Autoweek you were likely working a lot harder than a columnist at one of the monthlies.
JPIII is a God among other car journalists. His writing was among that which truly brought me to the fold. As much car journalism as travelogue. I felt I was there (Alaska, Borneo, etc..).
One of my favorite things is telling really subtle jokes then blatantly over-explaining them to whoever is listening. See, it’s not that they didn’t understand the joke, but since they’re not laughing I’m going to assume they didn’t understand it and then spend twice as much time explaining it in the simplest terms possible. Thus the time wasted over-explaining the original bad joke becomes the actual joke. You see, what I’m actually doing is making the recipient of the joke the actual punch line and by the end the only one laughing is me.
Funny, I’m the direct opposite. I’ll do a joke and jest leave it out there. Most don’t get it, especially the young ppl. However, the one that do, laugh or come back latter and say they laughed
I’m the same. If people aren’t laughing, it’s obviously because they didn’t get the joke. There’s no way in hell the joke was bad, because I’m a funny guy.
$.02 from a (very) part-time magazine editor and writer…
I wouldn’t use “mean” to describe the original version; perhaps it’s better described as “bitter”. I shall explain.
The statements indicating that an autojournalist would very likely
earnreceive big money for little work in the pre-blog era (PBE) suggest that the opposite is true in the blog-centric era (BCE). There is a note of “those bastards had it SO EASY – not like now” running through it, hinting at a melange of bitterness and frustration. As a result, the piece wasn’t very funny.On the subject of humor: Mel Brooks has famously said something like “Tragedy is when I cut my finger; comedy is when you fall down an open sewer and die”. Exaggeration for comedic effect is handy, but IMO it needs to be both over the top and a little bit silly in order to work.
That was my issue with it. If it’s gonna be a joke, it can’t be too real. I think a few comedians have gotten into some trouble over that. It’s gotta be laughable, not plausible. But good on everyone for dialing this in.
I’m proud to say that in the 2.5 years The Autopian has been around, I’ve never once pulled rank. I have the best team any person can ask for, and I want everyone to know how much I value their opinion/talents. I truly believe that, because we all have the same goal — to create the best car website of all time – working together is the best way.
Rip on the BMW i3 or Jeep XJ/ZJ, though, and all bets are off.
Hmmmm.
You’re still holding that against him, Adrian?
An Englishman never forgets.
An honourable gentleman might forgive…
I had JT’s support for the record. The one thing that I regret was not sending you an email so you wouldn’t wake up wondering what the heck had happened. That was an unfair oversight on my end.
Also maybe I could have turned the blog-chainsaw down to at least its medium setting.
Lessons were learned, and I’m grateful you haven’t sent your goons. Yet.
Just wait till you see his design review of the Jeep ZJ!
I thought it was only JT that messed w/ chainsaws…
OK, serious question for the authors here. Do you call yourselves autojornalists or bloggers?
Do you call what you write an article or a post?
Would it be different if you had a print issue of the site along with a website?
:old guy screaming at the clouds:
In my head I always think of SBSD as a “column.” I actually hate the term “blog,” it just sounds vaguely gross.
But “column” in the print world always meant it doesn’t represent the staff or editors, right?
BTW, I hate the term “blog”
Well, I am freelance, and more or less autonomous, as long as I stick to the formula.
When I admit to the general public that I read this site, I call them “articles” and “writers”. Makes me feel just a bit less sophomoric.
Very brave of you to admit that to the general public.
Not an author here, but…
“Bloggers” can include automotive journalists along with everyone else — cheese advice, cat feeds, or the bizarre conspiracy ramblings of a madman who is CONVINCED that the 911 Dakar was an inside job.
Same goes with “posts:” I post articles for work! I also post pictures of my 944 barfing coolant on social media. This, too, is an overarching term that can include multitudes.
Anyone beefing with autojournos who post blogs instead of get published in a mag needs to sit down at this point. Hell, we’ve got automotive journalists who exclusively work in video now. The medium doesn’t matter as long as they’re doing the work.
And then there were legends like Peter Egan whose 1000 words read like a novel.
That magnificent bastard. I bought (one of his) books!
One of the best ever. We were lucky to have him.
He is (was) one of the greats.
Lunch beers might have settled this faster.
Or fisticuffs
BTW, maybe my favorite PV topshot ever.
Florence, Y’all.
Internal conversation, this would have been caught by the time we published. At least a 50% chance we’d have caught it. 40%
I know. I had a chance to reference this and had to take it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Y%27all_Water_Tower
> painted in 1974 by the Virginia Erection Co.
You can’t get this stuff up.
.. Make it up! You can’t make this stuff up.
“Virginia Is For Lovers”
Seriously.
Spelling, correctness of facts and oblique cultural references count.
If you need a copy editor – I’ll send over a CD.