George Lazenby as James Bond. U2’s “Pop” album. Are there automotive equivalents of these less-than-loved products of a brand? I mean, something that is an important part of their history and not necessarily horrendous but typically ignored or brushed aside by fans? There’s plenty of cars like that, and a good example would be four seat versions of iconic sports cars.
One of the first examples of trying to make a two-place GT more popular with the masses never actually reached production. When the Corvette “C2” Sting Ray was being prepared for launch in 1963, there were some that though it might be worth looking at a stretched version to carry more passengers as an option to more family-oriented buyers. This might have been spurred on by the fact that Ford went from a two seater Thunderbird in 1957 to a much larger four seat model in 1958, massively increasing sales numbers. These photos for the four seat ‘Mid Year’ Corvette prototype resurfaced a few years back from GM, with the black and white image of the original for comparison:
The story is told that the Corvette team was never keen on the idea. They were apparently quite happy when, during a presentation to upper management, the seat latch refused to work and trapped an executive in back of the prototype until tools could be retrieved. While this might not have been what killed the project, it certainly didn’t help; the ‘Vette has remained a two seater to this day. While most Corvette fans thought this 2+2 mockup deserved to die for its crimes against humanity, I really don’t think it’s that bad. If you’d never seen the more balanced two seater original, you might not mind it nearly as much. Besides, I’ve always found most any Corvette to be pretty pretty damn big for something that only seats two.
Jaguar did go ahead and make a two plus two E-Type with a stretched wheelbase. The more vertical windshield and tall greenhouse don’t do it any favors (seemingly worse than the 2+2 ‘Vette) but the model did indeed find buyers. In fact, the 2+2 sold at nearly the same numbers (or more) than the two-seat closed coupe each year it was made.
Nissan seems to have followed Jaguar’s lead with their “Z” series of sports/GT cars. The 240Z was as much of a smash success when it debuted in 1970 as the XKE, so they likely realized that a four seat model could be the ticket to keep the sales juggernaut going. Beginning in 1974, Nissan offered a 2+2 version of every Z car it built up until 1999 (well, 1996 in the US).
The later 2+2s were not as dramatically different since they kept the same basic rear window form; on the last Z32 300ZX you often need to see if the gas door was in front (2 seater) or behind (4 seater) the wheel to tell the difference. I’m not sure if they even sold the two-seat versions of the Z31 and Z32 in Japan or Europe, where taxes, insurance, and size of this “large” car meant that it wouldn’t have been economically feasible.
There actually was a 2+2 version of the later 2002 Z33 Z Car, but many don’t realize it since it was rebodied and sold as the Infiniti G35 coupe. Nissan likely saw the demographics of the 2+2 Z car buyer (typically older, more money) and realized that the Infiniti brand might be a better place to sell the larger four seat sports coupe. They’re nice cars, but they’re just not Zs.
Purists typically hate these things, finding the extra length, weight, and taller rooflines unappealing. The fact is, they weren’t that much heavier or longer (typically around 10 inches), and the extra wheelbase resulted in improved ride and less twitchiness at the limit. More importantly, having only two seats locks out a huge market. Families with two cars make up a large portion of the car buying public, and most of them don’t want or can’t afford a third “toy car” that the kids can’t fit in. The bigger, stretched model might not be ideal, but a four-seat Z car beats no Z car at all in my book. You can rip on a guy’s E-Type 2+2 all you want, but he’s sure as shit got a Jaaag sports car and you don’t, do you?
I can attest to this situation myself, since our four person family had a couple of four seat Z cars (an S130 280Z and a Z32 300ZX, both rather rare-for-2+2 manuals). We only had parking space for two cars, so a two-seater wasn’t happening. There was another major factor as well: it was about five foot four inches tall, wore Talbot’s clothes, and we called her mom. Maybe your mom liked Camaros or cool British sports car, but I doubt it. Mine liked Volvo and BMW wagons like this one. Somehow, my dad got 2+2 Zs to pass muster with her as a second car; they were, after all, reliable six cylinder Japanese products (well over 150,000 miles attained on each of them). Even when we got too big to ride in back, the seats folded to form cargo space around double what you’d get in the two-place models.
With the just-released RZ34 Z car, Nissan has reached way back to the original S30 model for styling cues. The appearance is so close to our old US spec 280Z 2+2 that it appears the front bumper has fallen off. Jason has mentioned this rather odd-looking giant rectangular grille-to-the-ground look as well.
No problem; I fixed it here below. Now you can park this thing in the city with reckless abandon just like I did with our old car back in the eighties:
The latest Z is, of course, only offered as a two seater. As before, you need to hit your Infiniti dealer if you’re looking for a coupe-with-a-back-seat in the slow selling G60. Still, could a four seat Z find the success that it did before, despite being viewed in a less-than-optimum light by some “enthusiasts”? Here’s a mockup that’s been stretched a little less than a foot, with longer doors and a slightly raise roof to make the tiny rear seat a possibility.
From the front it isn’t that noticeable.
In back, the changes in length and the roof to allow room for the tiny seat are more obvious.
I mean, it’s not horrendous, and like the earlier models the extra luggage space alone might be worth it even if you don’t ever use the seat. Every newer Z car from the Z33 on has had pretty abysmal cargo area for anything that even purports to be an every day car so this would certainly help.
If you loved your old two seater Z car and LOATHED the long wheelbase one, just remember this: the 2+2 model likely helped to keep the model alive. Had Nissan (or Jaguar) not expanded the line with this more practical version, these sports car icons might not have existed for as long as they did. With sports cars currently being endangered species constantly fighting with SUVs for survival, maybe Nissan needs to think about the idea again.
A Daydreaming Designer Imagines If Saab Had Rebooted The Sonett In 1985 – The Autopian
I have nothing against a good 2+2, but you say repeatedly that adding a foot or ten inches is like nothing, as someone who loves small cars more than anything else, increasing the length by a foot is not insignificant at all to me.
I always felt that “sports cars” with back seats, whether a 2+2 or a vestigial back seat like a 911, mostly existed as an insurance dodge, at least in the US. I’m not sure if this exists elsewhere in the world, but in the US, 2-seat cars are almost always more expensive to insure than 4-seat cars.
I once rode from NY to FL in the back seat of a 3G Camaro. At the first potty break, I folded down the back seat and spent the rest of the trip sitting/laying crosswise. It was a vast improvement.
Anyway, I actually think this rendering of the new Z is pretty compelling. To be honest, I find the severe straight-line back of the IRL hatch to be a bit much*, and I rather like the subtle curve in the 2+2.
*that is, from a design point of view, it looks to me like part of an early, highly geometric concept sketch that never got any adjustment, even though none of the rest of the design is geometric like that.
My dad got a Supra in ’83 (and handed down his Montego commuter to be my sister’s first car). The back seat was tiny, even for 10-yo me, but it was also necessary, just as The Bishop says. The idea that he wouldn’t be able to take the two kids anywhere if my mom was elsewhere with the Delta 88… I mean, come on.
And, for the record, my mom was absolutely into British sports cars. She even test drove a TR3 when we moved to Miami and required a second car, but admitted she no longer wished to spend weekends wrenching it. Eventually she got a Laser—for about a minute, our home inventory was a Grand Am (mine), Laser (hers), and Laser Turbo (dad’s).
Cool looks, great engine, unmatched reliability: yes, the A60 Supra had it all over the ’80s Z cars in my book.
personal taste, but i prefer the look of the Lotus +2 to the Lotus Elan.
Emil Stackpoole- it does look very long and sleek. Plus more people on board to push it. I KID! I KID!!
Kudos to your son for trying! He sounds like another young lad I know well.
Update: This was intended as a Reply to The Bishop’s comment on World of V’s post.
RecoveringGTV6MaratonaOwner- yes, he is tenacious:
kid: “Mom, the depreciation on the used 911 is next to nothing compared to a Cayenne”
Mom: “Maye we should go look that Lexus RX350 again”
back off kid!! back off!!!
Bishop, if we could just get them to temper, I mean put a governor on their relentless pushing and know when to pump the brakes, their relentlessness will serve them well in life. Don’t even get me started about timing…
My TT has big warnings in bold never to let anyone over 4′ 11″ (1.50m) tall in the back seats, and to never ever close the liftgate while passengers are in the back seat.
I might do a rear seat delete on that one, even average height folks (i.e. not me) leave no legroom in the back for anyone. At best it would work for a dog, and a medium to small one at that.
just no in every way.
the 2+2 alwayws just looks….american
the rear seats in my 2+2 S14 200sx were so useless there was no point.
I’ll keep my RZ34 with 2 seats thanks.
I think it’s magnificent! It reminds me of an older Ferrari F12 Berlinetta- including the color. Also, it looks like a true touring car for longer/golf trips. As someone else mentioned, golf clubs take up a lot of space that the longer body and drop seats could assist with- when you don’t need the backseats.
BTW, their HQ is here and I have had the good fortune of seeing the first new Z prototype and many many GTRs around town. I’ve always assumed the GTR drivers were Nissan execs or managers. I recently saw what might be a Nismo or just performance prototype dark metallic gray/graphite Z with red Brembos(?) and all the fixins’. It looked mighty mean, as we say down here.
As a dad who likes car, the more 2+2s the better. I’m looking at the BRZ because of this. I don’t haul my kids much, I had them in my car maybe three times in the past 4 years. So a 2+2 would be perfect. I get to have a fun car but also be able to carry the kids in a pinch.
I mean, there’s an issue and you have to get them at school, which is like two miles away. I don’t wanna switch cars!!
2+2 with a little bit of actual space is great, this weekend taking my 911 to the hamptons concurs we had 3 people. Look I wasn’t the most comfortable and wouldn’t wanna drive it hours the way I did but in a pinch for a little bit I was slightly uncomfy in the drivers seat, my 6’5 friend in the passenger seat and my 5’4 gf behind me. It worked and we got there and we didn’t have to take a second car.
World of Vee- I know! When we went to look at the Cayenne we eventually bought, the 12 year old ran to a similar priced used 911 Targa in the showroom, hopped in back and declaresd ‘there’s PLENTY of room back here!!” His mom was not convinced. At all. But he DID have room.
I am philosophically opposed to four seat sports cars, for a number of reasons. First, it is unnecessary weight. But secondly, I am mindful of the creeping chauvinism of making every vehicle large enough to ferry around four to six adults. In the end, this is counterproductive to sportiness, and leads to less interesting possibilities in design.
Some things should just be two seaters. This is one of them.
Me looking at the top pic, shakily pointing a gun at the cars: “How do I know which one is the real one?”
Seriously, good job. That looks fantastic and I want it to be the real one.
They have a bunch of poorly named Q60 Red Sports laying around! Just take a sharpie and cross out some stuff, add some Z’s everywhere. Then pretend there is two more gears, boom 2+2 Z.
For dogs sake, yes!
If you consider the G35 coupe the 2+2 350Z then I would argue the 2+2 version of the new Z has existed for years: the Q60 coupe. It has of course been discontinued due to poor sales.
FloridaMan- I mention that in the post. It really IS the 2+2 Z but for some reason it’s just not the same as a 2+2 Z. I really can’t explain it. Sort of like a Camaro versus Firebird comparison; I know it’s basically the same and the differences shouldn’t be a big deal but somehow they are.
I’ve casually browsed and researched Q60 red sports a few times since they’re gorgeous, powerful, and depreciate like lead balloons. I still think they and the Q50 red sports are good buys once they dip into the high 30s. At that point you’re talking well equipped GTI money for 400 Japanese horsepower, available all wheel drive, and very well appointed interiors if you can look past some of the extremely dated designs.
The catch is that apparently they aren’t THAT great to drive. They’re automatic only and the transmission is a slouch, many of them are equipped with Infiniti’s steer by wire option which apparently coats the steering in Lidocaine, and braking/handling performance is meh. They’re great in a straight line but that’s about it.
It just depends on what you want. If you want to enjoy tossing your car around the Q60 is way worse than a Z, but if you’re looking for a fast cruiser and don’t care as much about the dynamics then I think they’re great buys. They’re also surprisingly reliable and Infiniti’s warranty is really good, especially if you go certified.
The other minus is having to live with the Infiniti image. I’m not sure about you all, but in my area high performance Infinitis are synonymous with crime…and for good reason. For relatively little money you get a fast car that’ll take a beating and can blend in. I personally don’t really want to take the heat that might come from rolling around in one, but your results may vary.
I strongly disagree. The G35 was a skyline, the Z is a Z. Those are similar, but very different product lines and I would never consider the G35 to be a 2+2 Fairlady, that’s like calling the Corvette and Camaro SS the same car but the Camaro having the backseat, no one would do that because they are not the same.
No one would do that because the Corvette is a substantially smaller car on a completely different platform whose development was always completely separated from anything else in GM; even in the 1980s where the two model lines were at their closest in terms of drivetrains and parts bin stuff and the Camaro came first.
A 350z was a G35 with a foot chopped out of the middle of it.
I was under the impression that George Lazenby’s one outing as 007 was well regarded these days. The final scene…excuse me, I have something in my eye.
Data- don’t forget an ice race with a cool Mercury Cougar!
While I think the current Z is a very attractive car, it’s a misguided one. I agree completely with The Bishop here. It’s just sitting at such an awkward place market wise. I would argue that its most direct competitors are the pony cars, Zupra, and performance 2 series variants.
Other than the Zupra, all of the others offer backseats…and somewhat usable ones at that outside of the Camaro. You can absolutely get away with having only 2 seats in an extremely focused driver’s car, like the 718, C8, Miata, or aforementioned Zupra…but the Z is not that and it never has been.
The current one is essentially set up as a grand tourer with a little bit more edge. Although I haven’t driven one, the consensus seems to be that it’s set up like a GT. And yet it only has two seats and a tiny trunk. It’s also damn expensive for what it is. To get all the performance doo dads that you actually want you’re looking at a $50,000 price tag.
At that point you’d be nuts not to look elsewhere. You can get more performance/driver focus, more space and comfort, or a pony car that can be equipped to do either or both depending on your budget. Short of JDM bros, I’m just not sure who the new Z is for.
If it had 4 seats and an actual trunk it would be a lot more competitive. It’s also already a damn boat so I’m sure it can be done. The lightest one weighs 3500 pounds. There’s no excuse for it to use all that mass as poorly as it does.
The rear seats are indeed a joke but the cargo space is important. My parents took the Z32 2+2 on a Florida trip and once you put in golf clubs you’d NEVER get in more luggage if it were a 2+2.
Slightly off-topic: my dad had a 10th anniversary RX-7 that he paid the dealer to install a backseat (they had to import it from Japan!) It was tight for my 8-year-old self.
20 years later I stumbled upon a 10th anniversary FC 2+2 for sale and wondered if it was my dad’s. Couldn’t have been too many of those around. Kinda kicking myself for not contacting the seller…
The second gen RX7 was available with a tiny back seat in the US, so you shouldnt have had to order one from Japan (we looked at one to replace the S30 but ended up waiting for the Z32). The first gen one had an even smaller rear seat standard in Japan and possibly Europe.
Oh, just the seat was ordered from the factory. The car originally arrived as a two-seater.
At least that’s what I remember. It was 34 years ago after all. 😉
I gotta say that side profile on the 2+2 version is rustlin’ my jimmies in a totally unexpected way! I like it better then the real version! The curve of the hatch area looks way better than the slope of the 2 seater!
Well done, Bishop!
I would agree, I think it is more muscular looking in the rear wheel arch area. Arguably an improvement, like the side glass shape better too.
As the former owner of a 2+2 Z31, my biggest beef with the 2+2 is that Nissan always seemed to reserve the better/more powerful models for the 2-seat versions. Want to seat four in your Z31 or Z32? No turbo for you!
If they offered the 2+2 setup in the latest Z, I’m sure they’d figure out some way to ruin it – like decide it needs a CVT and a detune in power (or some such nonsense).
Squirrelmaster- if you don’t mind RHD, you can get a twin turbo Z32. A lot for sale in the US.
Ah, I had my Z31 back when they were selling the Z32 new, and I often daydreamed about trading it in on a Z32 twin-turbo.
Sadly, I’m well past the sports car phase and now onto the “What minivan should we get to replace the old minivan” phase of life.
I will say, eight and ten year old niece and nephew LOVED riding in the Z32 around town with the T Tops off. They actually fit! Didnt need boosters! They WERE booster seats
The big chrome and plastic 5mph bumper does not look as ridiculous as I thought it would.
Also, I like how Bishop added a rear bumper, too, even though you can barely see it. I appreciate that level of commitment and attention to detail.
They also need to bring back the T-tops
What I really got out of this article was that I think the Z should only come with white-letter tires.
These need to come back across the board for cars for sure! Yeah, you can’t get away from them on trucks and SUVs, but for sporty cars with retro vibes, they’d so complete the package if more were available.
The “everyday car” approach the Bishop describes is what makes this for me.
The Z at its best is sorta half-way between a sports car and a pony car – that’s why it needs those rear seats. Pure two seaters have always been a compromise and we live in an era were even finding a two-door vehicle takes some doing. I can’t imagine there are enough hardcore Z fans at this point for the actual model to survive for long as it’s currently configured. This isn’t a Miata.
The problem is I’m not sure there’s enough Z fans where an additional 2+2 would move enough additional units to justify another body style, and the crash testing it would require.
There aren’t sales numbers available for every region, but I’m not sure the 370Z ever reached 100,000 total units sold globally over its 12 year run.
Yeah, they’d move some additional units, but some of the 2+2s would just replace 2-seat sales.
I mean, the Camaro was just killed again. We got another Z because they dragged FM forward yet again, and Nissan is trying to be creative with resources right now. The Toyobarus and Supra exist because of collaborations. I only drive sports cars, but the writing has been on the wall for 20 years that the bottom end of that market continues to slowly decline.