Good morning! It’s time to get back to work from the three-day weekend, but the good news is that it’s only a four-day week. Today we’re looking at a couple of long-roof people-haulers that you don’t see too often. But first, let’s see where you landed on Friday’s flatheads:
Looks like the Hudson wins this race. Honestly, I expected it to go the other way, based on the comments, but the Hudson’s rarity and electric-blue paint seem to have given it the edge.
In the mid-1980s, the minivan was just beginning its ascendancy in the family-hauler market. But every manufacturer made a station wagon variant of almost every sedan they made. Because of their utilitarian nature, most wagons got used, and used up. This makes them a rare sight these days, but here on the west coast where cars don’t rust, it seems there’s at least one good example of pretty much anything you can think of still kicking around. Today, I’ve found what was once a common station wagon, and a contemporary that was a rare sight even back then. Let’s take a look.
1985 Peugeot 505 S wagon – $4,000
Engine/drivetrain: Turbodiesel 2.3 liter overhead cam inline 4, four-speed automatic, RWD
Location: Woodburn, OR
Odometer reading: 193,000 miles
Runs/drives? Runs great
Peugeot diesels aren’t very well-known in the US, but in some other parts of the world, they’re legendary. This car and its predecessor, the 504, are still in regular use in Africa, particularly in station wagon and pickup truck form (yes, Peugeot made pickup trucks once upon a time). Peugeots are the cars folks can count on to get the job done, whatever the job may be, sure as Kilimajaro, well, you know. In the US, the Peugeot 505 competed against other midsized European cars, all of which were moving upscale in the mid-’80s. Hard thankless work was the furthest thing from its mission here; this car was meant for the affluent suburbs.
A rough, clattery diesel engine didn’t really fit the mission of an upwardly-mobile ’80s lifestyle, but if Mercedes could get away with it, so could Peugeot. Diesels had a brief burst of popularity in the US around the time of the second gas crunch, but US consumers lost a lot of confidence in oil-burners after the Oldsmobile diesel fiasco. But diesels not built by GM are actually very durable and reliable. This one runs very well, according to the seller, and has had a lot of recent work done to it to keep it running well. It still has a few issues, mostly electrical. It does have a small coolant leak, but the way the seller describes it, it sounds like it’s just the reservoir leaking.
Inside, the 505 fits the yuppie-mobile brief a bit better. This S model came with leather seats, but a previous owner swapped them out for velour. At least they’re in nice shape. And in the grand French car tradition, the 505 rides very smoothly.
The rest of this car is in good cosmetic shape as well. It was repainted about ten years ago, and it never had any rust. The seller swapped the US-spec 7 inch rectangular sealed beam headlights for the composite glass European ones, and installed 15 inch wheels from a newer 505 along with new tires. Owning and driving a car like this isn’t a casual endeavor like owning a Camry or something; you end up becoming an expert in the marque, and it sounds like the seller is eager to pass on their knowledge along with a ton of spare parts and service manuals.
1984 Chevrolet Caprice Estate wagon – $4,700
Engine/drivetrain: 305 cubic inch overhead valve V8, four-speed automatic, RWD
Location: Washougal, WA
Odometer reading: 188,000 miles
Runs/drives? Daily driven
But not everyone in the ’80s was turning to flashy European cars. For lots of folks, a new car meant a trip to the Chevy dealership, and if you really meant business, you passed right by the Cavalier and Celebrity and Malibu wagons and went straight for this big boy: the Caprice Estate. There are no surprises with this car: a cast-iron V8, a separate body and frame, a column-shift automatic, and a solid rear axle are all present and accounted for, just like they had been for thirty years prior.
This big Chevy wagon, introduced in 1977, was actually downsized from the previous generation. Not a lot; it’s about nine inches shorter than the 1976 Caprice and rides on a five inch shorter wheelbase. It’s still a big car. But more importantly, it’s almost nine hundred pounds lighter, which makes it easier for the smog-choked 305 V8 to haul it around. This one is said to run beautifully, and in fact this car is in daily use. Everything works including the air conditioning.
[Editor’s Note: Look at that ’72 or ’73 Vega in the garage! – JT]
It’s not perfect cosmetically; there are some missing trim bits around the rear bumper, and it sounds like the rear door handles don’t work. But for a thirty-nine year old car that was intended to haul kids to baseball games and on family vacations, it’s in remarkably good shape.
I guess you’d be looked at funny if you hauled your kids around in an ’84 Chevy Caprice wagon these days. It has no ABS, no airbags, no driver aids, and it probably crumples like tinfoil in a crash, at least compared to today’s safety-caged crossovers. But folks my age all spent our childhoods in wagons like these; we fought over the “way back” seat and rode around without seatbelts on and somehow lived to tell the tale.
Station wagons are essentially gone now, and no matter how much some of us might want them to, they probably aren’t coming back. You have to lift the suspension a couple of inches and slather the lower third of the body in matte-black plastic if you want to sell wagons these days. (Thanks a lot, Subaru Outback.) But what you can do is buy one of these, and say to hell with the crossovers. All you need to do is decide which one is more your style.
(Image credits: Craigslist sellers)
I picked the Peugeot as being the more interesting and cheaper car, but not a bad choice to be had here other than the Chevy being rather overpriced.
I have distinct memories of that era of GM wagon. For many years in the late 90s and 2000s a particular family-owned parking lot company at my home airport used these as their people haulers rather than vans. They had luggage racks on the top and I did many rides in the “way-back” to and from the airport terminal. That was a hard life and the wagons were up to it.
What is that tape????
I owned a 1982 505 sedan for a while back in the early 2000’s. It was a gasoline burner and it was slowwwwww, but the seats were some of the most comfortable I’ve ever experienced. The Pug is a better car in every way than the Caprice.
Chevy over here for this guy. There’s no way Im playing the 30+yr old French parts sourcing game.
Fun fact: Fred Durst (of Limp Bizkit) has an Instagram full of woody wagons like this one.
Another great one today, Mark!
Has no one noticed the Chevy vega in the garage of the Caprice . I’d take the Caprice, obviously the owner is a car person who takes care of their vehicles.
Funny, I would put it down as a person with no vehicle sense rather than a car person. What car person would want a Vega?
I noticed it mentioned in the article under editors comments. You learn so much when you read the articles. LOL
My dad had a 505 sedan. I remember it being very very comfortable and having tons of space in the back seat. I’d definitely take the pug.
I took the Pug but no way is it roomier or more comfortable than a block long GM landyacht.
Man, two certified bangers to start the week! There’s not a bad choice here, but we’ll take the 505. If the GM was an Estate Wagon or a Parisienne Safari, it’d go the other way.
There is no way in a frozen hell that the votes should only be 10% apart. A bulletproof Caprice wagon with an interior slathered in sumptuous burgundy velour, versus “The French Mistake”? Come on, y’all. Be real.
I salute you sir and defend your right to be wrong.
It’s still a free country. You are even free to choose French weirdness. I don’t get it, but ain’t that America for you and me.
If I’m going that way, I’ll give you a ride to the weird European parts store in my Caprice wagon, since it runs and your Peugeot doesn’t.
Sigh, take note of the key word in the phrase “somehow lived to tell the tale” being “lived.” Those who didn’t live didn’t get to tell the tale.
First, It is not the “Way Back”. It is the “Back-B-Back” (Pronounced “Back-buh-Back”).
While we had the Olds Diesel version, Diesel Engine aside, everything else about the car and this model line made them amongst the best cars made, and certainly amongst the best of that era. I know everyone likes to dump on them, but they aren’t being honest. These were big, safe, reliable cars, sold as a rock. Nothing in that era was fast or exciting.
We had gone through a period where we were high and drunk, making cars that were bigger, flashier, faster, more powerful, and thirstier than ever before, and at some point, we became (or were in danger of becoming) the old guy hanging around the frat party.
The Caprice is the automotive equivalent of being an adult. To sort of quote Animal House, “Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life.” So, away with the crazy and in with the sensible.
It was “The Very Back” in our household in the ‘80s, and it made perfect child-sense to us.
The Lion of Paris (now in Poissy) for me today. Contrasting these two, it’s the difference between a tugboat and a barge and I’d rather pilot a tugboat.
The Chevy wagon is exactly the same as our first vehicle(that I remember). Only difference is we had vinyl seats(shorts in the summer fun!) So this one gets my vote.
ours was blue on blue vinyl, I inherited it as my teenage car and boy was that a mistake by my parents
My high school girlfriend had a battleship-sized 1974 Chrysler New Yorker wagon.
We went “camping” a lot.
If it resulted in grandchildren, then all went as planned.
I love old Peugeots. My parents had a friend that had a purple 504 that she would let me tool around in sometimes. I, alas, do not have an extra $4k kicking around right now.
I like Pugs. Most of them will last forever — except for the MI-16 — and are pretty nice rides. Even the diesels.
The downside is hitting up your nearest Peugeot dealer for parts. That basically means a trip to France.
On the other hand, the Chevy has a 305 (meh), is too large for my taste, and has a typical ’80s GM interior (also meh).
In the Chevy’s favor, I think you can still source woodgrain Di-Noc.
Woodgrain the original wrap. Go nuts put a family portrait instead of woodgrain. It is what Clark Griswald and Phil Dumphy would do.
Especially the diesels. Most people this side of the pond don’t know, but Peugeot has been making diesels for as long as Mercedes, and they would put any Toyota engine to shame in reliability. Even when everything else on that 505 has desintegrated twice over, the engine will still be happily click-clacking away.
Chevy because when it needs work you’ll actually be able to find parts and mechanics willing to work on it.
I like wagons, but not 80s GM hot garbage. IF it was a 60s to early 70s, then yes. I picked the French Connection. Though, with great pain, it’s an automatic.
I give the Peugeot a white-dude dance and Serge with a switchblade on my completely arbitrary scale of French cool.
https://youtu.be/2a2rrdti8XM
Hell yeah I love the Chevy Caprice! It was a family car growing up (along w/ a Dodge Caravan and Toyota Previa)
Nothing personal against you Mark, because statements like this pop up every time old cars are discussed, but I really wish they wouldn’t. This is survivor bias at its finest. Several childhood friends of mine aren’t around because they were in accidents they might have survived in a modern car.
The motorcycle community seems to have a consistently more level-headed approach to this issue. For instance when it comes to older, higher-powered bikes, writers generally acknowledge that one is more likely to kill you than a newer/lower-powered alternative, then just move on. Mercedes does a good job of that in her writeups here.
I bike to work, which is orders of magnitude more dangerous than commuting in an old shitbox. Friends and family routinely tell me that this is risky, and I’m essentially putting my life in jeopardy every time I make that bike ride. Consistently the best way to handle it has been to say “you’re right, it is dangerous. I’m still going to keep biking.”
To be clear, it’s not as if I think every article about old cars should dwell on their relative danger, or that the lack of safety features somehow diminishes the other appeals that older cars have. Hell, I own a couple myself.
I guess it’s the “well, *I* turned out fine” attitude that I’m kind of over. People obviously survived before every technological improvement that reduced injury or death; that doesn’t mean we should somehow valorize the more dangerous times before. Because the people who didn’t survive aren’t here to tell us their side of the story.
It’s tough. The “it was good enough for us and we survived” attitude is basically guaranteed to surface any time one generation gets older. Not just to cars, but basically everything that involves some sort of risk. I’m not sure Mark here is necessarily glamorizing an era of lax attitudes towards safety, but may just be in “it was what it was” mode.
I understand the sentiment of your frustration with this though.
Indeed, the star of our high-school soccer team in the early ’90s had a paralyzed right arm from having fallen out of the back of a pickup truck as a younger kid. He was probably the first and (at the time only) athletic kid to concentrate on one sport year-round, since there was really no other sport he could compete on a non-adaptive level in.
I got thrown from the way back back trunk seats of an old Ford wagon when I was under 5 and went all the way into the front seat. The seat belt that had been repaired once, broke again. I remember waking up on the stretcher and my dad coming home with a bag of candy for me that night.
Overall I still love the car, but wouldn’t let my young girls ride in the way back until they were older if I got one now.
I hear you on this. I was lucky in college–I fell out of a pickup when the guy driving was mad that he’d killed it, so he really gassed on it when he got it to start. I was standing up talking to him and he mashed into reverse and lost control. I still don’t really know how I didn’t end up underneath except that I instinctively rolled on impact.
I could have died, and that was in a parking lot. I knew a couple people who have died from rollovers or the like. Not quite the same as the “we didn’t have seatbelts and we turned out alright” crowd, but there’s a lot of overlap with the “we piled into the back of a pickup and no one died” crowd. I’ll still ride in the back of a pickup, but I’m well aware of the risk in a way I never thought about as a kid.
As with many auto-borne risks, though, the risk is mitigated by not having an asshole at the wheel. I safely rode in the bed of a pickup truck many times as a child, because that pickup truck was always being driven by a father or grandfather of one of the other kids in the back, who did not want anyone to die.
Such risk skyrockets when the driver is “pissed off amped-up young dude throwing a tantrum behind the wheel.” That’s a very different situation from “let’s pile the neighborhood kids in the back of the truck and go a mile down country roads/three-quarters of a mile through lightly traveled 25mph residential streets to get some ice cream.”
I like both of these. I’m not sure why people thought wagons were not cool (or why people think SUVs/CUVs are cool, for that matter). I prefer the Peugeot, but I imagine it would be difficult to get it repaired when it breaks. It would be a great choice for someone with mechanical ability and patience to locate parts. For me, I’d have to go with the Caprice. Parts are readily available. If I can’t fix it, it would be easy to find a local mechanic who can.
Dad had a grey Caprice sedan this vintage, 6-12 passenger car depending on seatbelt usage easlily.
I see that Peugeot and I want to paint it brown…
Did anyone else read this and hear it to the Rolling Stones song Paint It Black?
Just me? Okay…
Nope. Not just you.
No velour anymore I want it all in brown…
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5KYAAOSwTudfzSMJ/s-l400.png
Love them both, prefer the woody for fun’s sake. I actually saw a nice blue one drive by this weekend with a “for sale” sign on it, so I have actually been thinking about this car.
My thoughts were this though: How do I put an electric motor in this and avoid mechanical crap that is bound to pop up. And what’s that run a guy?
Way more than the dead-simple mechanicals that are also easily and cheaply upgraded.
that was my fear, and I let the dream go with the car as it drove by me. These cars are both old enough that you are right, repairs should be simple.
I would do bad, bad things to and then with the Caprice. LS swap, LSD, blower with a birdcatcher thru the hood, leave the woodgrain, and stomp the loud pedal…
Enough with the stupid LS swaps. Not all cars need more power. Keep it stock.
I get it, but no, this is exactly the right sort of car for an LS swap. It’s got a smog choked, carbureted 305 with 150 HP. – that’s going to work better as a boat anchor than as something that merges you on to the freeway safely. This car would, 100%, have been built with an LS if the LS existed
Diesel swap.
6.2 will go right in one of these. Gear it right and it is a legit 30+ MPG highway cruiser. Upgrade the brakes, higher-rate rear springs and you have an amazing tow rig as well….
I agree this car would have been much better if built with an LS. But it wasn’t. The only good reason to swap a powertrain is if parts are no longer available or the original powertrain was truly terrible (i.e. the Cadillac 4-6-8 or Olds Diesel). The 305 was a thoroughly adequate engine.
My biggest objection to powertrain swaps is that they become much more complicated to work on in the future. If they are done right (i.e. by a professional or at least someone who has experience doing this work) swaps can be a big improvement. Unfortunately, most powertrain swaps end up being done by some jabroney who cuts corners and has no attention to detail.
Sorry, but I do not consider the 305 an ‘adequate’ engine. In stock trim they make GARBAGE for power, like less than 150 HP.
They are not a good platform to modify because of the tiny valve. It’s a 1.84 and even if you go to a larger valve it is horribly shrouded by the tiny bore. Most of them came with the terrible CCC Q-jet that somehow manage to get terrible mileage AND terrible power all wrapped up in an unreliable package. Like it isn’t even a good platform to start from if you want a decent engine.
How is a swap, that isn’t done poorly, more complex to work on?
Modern fuel injection is light years easier to work with than the CCC Q-jet and even if you go backward in time to a fully analog carb you are getting a easier to service package.
Dismissing swaps with the concept that ‘most people do them poorly so they’re bad’ is ridiculous. I would say like 75% of ALL aftermarket mods are done poorly. I’m not here to talk about the monstrosities morons make…
“How is a swap, that isn’t done poorly, more complex to work on?”
I have never swapped an engine in my own vehicle, but I have owned vehicles that have been previously swapped. Buying a previously swapped vehicle can be difficult if the seller doesn’t know the vehicle’s history or details on the modifications. I have a ’77 F250 where the original 400 was swapped for a 460 and it is a pain to get parts. Parts that fit a stock 460 engine from a ’77 don’t always fit so it often takes a few tries to get things right. Also, I have had a few problems where parts on the exterior of the engine don’t always fit properly in the engine compartment (for example, I needed a new oil pan and it took 3 tries to get one to fit; the one that actually fit has ~1 mm clearance from the front frame crossmember so the engine has to be rigidly bolted to the frame; these issues come up since a 460 was only offered for 2wd trucks of this year and mine is a 4wd).
It might not be difficult if you are the person who did the swap or you know all of the details about the swap, but it can be a tremendous pain if you don’t have all of that information (my truck was swapped 2 owners ago; the guy I bought it from didn’t have a clue beyond that the engine wasn’t original).
“I would say like 75% of ALL aftermarket mods are done poorly. I’m not here to talk about the monstrosities morons make…”
I would agree with this statement. The problem is that people greatly underestimate the effort/time/money it takes to do modifications correctly. And of those who take the time to do it right, it is rare to have adequate documentation for repairs in the future or if the vehicle is sold. Swaps aren’t the easy answer that a lot of people think they are.
The best reason to swap this 305 is that it’s a 305. Source: owned a 305. Even the most mildly built carbureted SBC would be a massive improvement in every single performance category you can name, often even fuel economy, and it will go anywhere a 305 will go.
Unless I somehow managed to get ahold of a complete Tuned Port Injection setup with intake and wiring, in which case I could be comvinced.
Do you understand just how low power a motor the 305 is?
This car is a prime example of where an LS *should* go.
The same manufacturer, is drastically in need of more power and the LS will be a huge increase in drivability, reliability and economy.
I’d rather LS swap the Peugeot and throw in a 6MT for good measure.
I owned several underpowered early ’80s cars. They are slow, but not so slow that they are dangerous to drive on modern roads. I also never had major reliability issues with those vehicles. They aren’t as good as modern vehicles, but they are adequate if well maintained. As for economy, if you want an economical vehicle, why are you buying a land yacht? Buy a Honda Civic.
So given the chance to double power, get better mileage and ditch an electric Q-jet on a 100HP small block with a mile of vacuum line, you’d skip it because…??
I would be willing to bet I have owned more low-power smog boats than most anyone here; they are huge bummers to drive. Maybe not dangerous but definitely not fun.
It’s not about economical value overall, it is about being able to get a size and style of car that still manage to get respectable mileage and emissions by modern standards.
I would not do the swap since it would cost thousands of dollars if done right or make the vehicle a nightmare to maintain/repair if done wrong (I am currently dealing with a vehicle that had a poorly executed powertrain swap; it is a pain in the ass).
I think we have different goals for a vehicle like this. I would not use it as a daily driver, so I am less concerned about making it equivalent to a modern vehicle. Also, we might have different ideas about what makes a vehicle “fun.” I enjoy driving old cars – I can’t tell you entirely why I like driving old cars, but I do. Making an old car modern/faster/more economical doesn’t improve the experience for me.
However, if you are going to do the swap right and you really want this to be equivalent to a modern car, an LS swap would make sense.
No one who ever owned or drove a Chevrolet product with a carbureted 305 in it would have any hesitation whatsoever to yank that hunk of crap out of there and replace it with literally any other Chevy V8. The 283 from my great-uncle’s 1966 Impala was a better mill. Add that L98s, LT1s, and all your favorite SBCs ever made bolt right in, and there’s no reason not to. There’s nowhere to go but up from a 305.
When I would turn on the air conditioner in my 1978 Camaro, my first car, you could feel the power being sucked out of the motor. I used to joke that it was like nitrous in reverse. Turning the AC on was the go-slow switch.
The performance of these Chevys were on par with my contemporary Subaru GLs—0-60 in a little over 13 seconds and the 1/4 . . . well, at least it was under 20 sec. Yeah, LS swap with matching transmission. Better mileage, too, though I wouldn’t make that a Day 1 move if it’s running just fine.
Hard choice this week. With my poll vote, I chose the Peugeot (for the novelty and for the quirky diesel). With my wallet I chose to own 2 GM B-body wagons. So my votes cancel each other out.
They’re both cool, in a wagon-y sort of way.
Yeah, I want them both. I voted Peugeot in the end tho, cos I love those big old rwd pugs.
Agreed… This was a tough one, and I like them both. Ultimately, though, I don’t have a good spot to work on cars right now, so I need something that you can always find someone to work on. Went with the Chevy.