Yesterday was a weird day — one that involved me feeling quite a bit of guilt. You see, a gentleman who had seen my 1954 Willys CJ-3B for sale on Facebook Marketplace had told me he was quite interested; I told him the Jeep wasn’t finished, but once it was, I’d let him know. He gave me his number, and for months we stayed in touch so I could relay my progress. Yesterday, after agreeing to a price, this gentleman drove five hours (one way) to buy the Jeep, only to decide against it. It was a strange situation, and a great learning opportunity for both him and me.
To be clear: It’s totally OK if someone decides they don’t want to buy my car. I don’t hold that against this gentleman, but this was a situation quite different than my previous vehicle sales, so I wanted to share it. Plus we need more posts since yesterday was such a bad traffic day, so here it is.
This gentleman had seen my 1954 Willys CJ-3B for sale on Facebook Marketplace for $15,000, and was apparently keen to make it his. “I’m really interested and looking for cj3b from long time. I will [keep] this for all my life,” he told me, saying his father in India used to own the very same Jeep, down to the color and model-year. It was at around this time that I was starting to prepare for my wedding, and decided to keep the CJ-3B as my wedding vehicle. “If I sell it, I will call you. But I suggest you keep an eye out for others in case. I will keep an eye out as well,” I offered.
In the end, I ultimately decided to make the Jeep Wrangler YJ my wedding vehicle, and to part ways with the CJ-3B. This was for a few reasons: First, the CJ-3B was taking a while to get ready, and I had bigger fish to fry than to wrench on a Willys when I had so much other wedding planning to do. Second, when I found bondo on my CJ, I knew I wouldn’t be able to avoid eventually replacing the entire body tub to make it a fully metal Jeep free from putty. I just don’t have time to go down that kind of rabbit hole.
So I reached back out to the gentleman who had been so keen to buy my CJ-3B and told him I was willing to part ways with the Jeep, but that it’d take me a little while to get it up to snuff. And so, after my wedding, I got to work, replacing the Jeep’s fuel tank, fuel pump, brake lines, brake master cylinder, wheel cylinders, and rebuilding the carburetor and replacing the shocks and a bunch of other bits.
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I was sure to let the prospective buyer know that I had discovered Bondo, and I generally wanted him to have a good idea of what condition the Jeep was in. So I made him this video:
Between that video and the photos of the Jeep in my listing (below), I figured the prospective buyer had a good understanding of what shape the Jeep was in, and of course I’d be happy to send more pics:
It took me a few months, but ultimately I got the Willys Jeep — which I bought last summer from a gentleman in San Gabriel, California who had told me the Jeep had been sitting a while — driving and stopping like a dream. Check it out:
Cruising in that Jeep was a true joy; that T90 three-speed just snicked up, to the right, and then up into second, then straight down into third with two satisfying SNICKS. The F-head motor sang a similar tune to its L-head “Go-Devil” older brother that I’d gotten used to in my 1948 Willys CJ-2A nicknamed “Project Slow Devil,” and the ride was charmingly bouncy. The entire world seemed to be looking as I drove down Roscoe Blvd in Van Nuys, California; there’s just something friendly about that Jeep’s styling that disarms the general public invites it to wave and yell “cool Jeep!”
I was reminded how much I miss Project Slow Devil:
Anyway, after showing this prospective buyer that the Jeep was running and driving like a dream and I was done wrenching on it, he asked me how much I’d sell it for. I reminded him that he’d replied to my $15,000 asking price on Facebook Marketplace; he replied with a $10,000 offer, saying he’s citing the bondo as the primary driver of the offer. I suggested $12, and in the end we wound up at $11,400 for a nicely running, driving, stopping Willys with a frame, engine, and transmission that had clearly been gone through in an older restoration, and some bondo on the rear quarters and other parts of the tub. It was a thoroughly OK CJ-3B. Not minty, not bad, but decent.
Truth is, I wasn’t even sure what the CJ-3B is worth; someone I’d nearly bought a CJ-5 from a few weeks back had seen the listing for my CJ-3B, and he told me it was a $15,000 Jeep. Between that and a bunch of online listings, I figured I’d start there, because why not?
Discovering the Bondo made it clear that 15 was too much, so when we agreed to $11,400, that seemed about right. Who knows how many of the above Willy CJ-3Bs (none of which are on the west coast, it’s worth mentioning) have some Bondo on their bodies, too.
Anyway, I really don’t know what the Jeep is worth, and I’m not really too worried about making X dollars, I just want to feel like I’m getting a fair deal in the sale. $11,400 is $4,100 less than the CJ-3B below that sold on Bring a Trailer. It’s nicer than mine, but it’s not an original creampuff (unless this vehicle is an M606 — and I don’t think this is — then this civilian Jeep’s body has been “militarized” with a shovel and headlight protection and extra footman loops); it’s unclear if the body has any filler:
I’m not one to point to Bring a Trailer and say “look, this one sold for that, so that’s what my car is worth!” but we agreed to $11,400, and looking at comps, it didn’t seem far off. But then the buyer showed up.
He’d rented a trailer and driven five hours south from the Bay Area to meet me in Van Nuys. We walked over to the Jeep and did a cold start so I could demonstrate the alacrity with which the Jeep fired up. The prospective buyer sat in the Jeep, drove it just a few feet in the parking lot, and then chatted with his friend for a while before telling me the Jeep is not as nice as it looked in pictures.
For five minutes, this prospective buyer lingered and didn’t know what to say. It seemed to me like he no longer wanted the Jeep; he told me he’d offer $9000.
I wasn’t upset by this, and honestly he might be right! Car-selling is a complex business, and it’s best not to take things personally. But I’d sent him videos and pictures of the Jeep, and he’d had ample opportunity to get more information on the vehicle prior to making the five-hour trek. We’d agreed to an $11,400 price, and to drive down and then try to negotiate another $2,400 off the price… it was just a little weird.
The vibes felt a little off. That’s not to say I need to get more than $9000 for this Jeep (at that price, I’d just about break even on what I paid for the Jeep and repair parts). Maybe that’s what it’s worth! Maybe that’s a good offer! I really don’t know. I agreed to take $11,000, and told the prospective buyer that I was trying to find comps to better understand if $9000 was a reasonable ask. I’d taken a bit off guard by the second round of negotiations, so I was looking into other decent, stock CJ-3Bs that had sold in the area.
I asked the duo if they could find a Jeep in this condition in this area for less than $11,000. “No, these are just so rare,” the friend told me. The prospective buyer told me he’d been looking for years for a decent, stock CJ-3B in California. This confused me a bit. “Given that it’s so rare, maybe it is worth $11,000. I mean, time matters, too. If you have to wait two years to get one in slightly better shape, is that worth it?” I said. In the end, I was willing to drop to $10,400, but the prospective buyer ultimately decided not to buy the Jeep. He drove five hours back home empty handed.
I don’t want to imply here that anyone screwed up. It’s clear to me that I could have done better providing more detailed photos of the Jeep, and it’s likely clear to this gentleman that in the future he should ask more questions before renting a trailer and driving five hours one-way. We both screwed up. It was a total bust.
But there’s a bright side, here. The bust means this gentleman didn’t end up owning a Jeep he didn’t want (sometimes a vehicle just doesn’t look as good in real life; that’s OK — I think this gentleman might want to just spend $15K-$20K on a cherry one), and it means I’ll be holding onto this CJ-3B for a while. Driving it around town after the duo from the Bay left reminded me why I’d bought the Willys in the first place. It is absolutely fantastic — a true joy that brightens even the cloudiest of days.
Anyway, that’s the whole article. Someone drove 10 hours round trip to see my Jeep, only to decide the price he’d agreed upon was, in his eyes, too much for the car he was now seeing in-person. He was apologetic for changing his mind, I was apologetic that I assumed he had a good understanding of the Jeep’s condition, and in the end we parted ways amicably. Me with one too many Jeeps and him with ten too-few hours. Alas…
I drove 5 hours to buy a tractor and found that the front axle had broken off and had been sloppily welded back on. And the engine wouldn’t start. I didn’t hold it against the guy as he really had no idea about tractors. He had bought a piece of property and was trying to clean it up.
You live and you learn.
I had a similar experience with a couple of cars in the past I looked at and didn’t buy.
One was with a VW Golf TDI I went to go see listed for CAD$3200. It was advertised as “running well” and the mileage was around 300,000km.
Well when I got there, it wouldn’t start. And I offered to boost it, but the owner wouldn’t let me try.
The owner tried assuring me that “it runs great… just needs a battery”. And my response was “It may very well run great. But with used cars, things can go wrong. I’m not going to pay running-car prices for a used car that won’t start. I’ll give you $500 as is… unless you can demonstrate that it does actually run great”
So we agreed that he would get a battery put in and give me a call.
I never got the call back and I have a hunch it needed way more than ‘just a battery’.
Another time, I went to look at a Mazda 3 that was “in great condition”. In reality it was a flood car with issues and the seller was full of shit.
That’s a crappy trick he tried, but I will say I’ve had cars misrepresented in photos before and when I showed up, they were way worse. I’ve either just left, and had the seller call me later, or just negotiated when I showed up and not beforehand.
Now you can road trip it to Moab, UT and make LOTS of fun content to read 🙂
I know the Flat fender crew would enjoy hanging with you!
I once went to look at a Ramcharger Prospector II from craiglist, it was at least local but all of the photos were exterior only. When I pulled up to the property some kids were playing in the street at a basketball hoop and as I walked up to the Dodge, yelled “hey are you gonna buy it?”
I opened the door to a completely gutted interior, and right in front of the seller yelled back “Nope!”
The dude is cheap, and unrealistic. Cheap in that he doesn’t really want to spend the money, but likes the *idea* of a vintage Jeep. Unrealistic, because he knows he doesn’t really understand the reality of owning a vintage vehicle, he wants one to be pristine that requires no work, but doesn’t want to spend the money for that. He probably wastes a lot of people’s time looking at vintage cars but never pulls the trigger.
I think you made the right call. This clearly isn’t the right Jeep for the guy so he can go buy another one in nicer shape for more money. Just gotta find somebody who will love this one for what it is, warts and all. That’s always been my philosophy towards selling cars, if I’m not flat-out broke and desperately needing the money, I’ll try to find the right buyer who will take good care of whatever car I’m selling.
I actually had a similar case when I was selling a BMW E39 wagon, one guy had inquired about it from Texas and had one of his buddies look at it locally and based on that he lowballed me pretty hard, calling it a project (it really wasn’t). I ended up selling that car locally to a guy that was super excited about it and loved it exactly as it was, and he’s owned it for 6 years now and still loves it. That makes me happy.
trayde 4 macrowav Oven?
You did not screw up. He had no intention of paying what you agreed to. He figured he could bully you into dropping the price more and he failed. Good for you to stick to your guns. I have dealt with this multiple times, and I have just decided it is not worth my time or energy to sell cars myself. People suck.
Yeah. He wasted his time and yours. You’re in the clear.
I have had people try to do this multiple times. I love a good negotiation, if someone comes in with a realistic offer and isn’t shady about it then I will typically meet them somewhere in the middle or even outright accept. But if someone comes in way low, approaches the lower offer in a shady way, or is just outright late/difficult to communicate with than I will gladly walk away.
When I sold my 67 Mustang I listed it for $7,000 and had a lot of interest. One guy came and saw it twice and tried to offer me $6,000. It had only been up 3 or 4 days at this point so I told him I was firm on $6,500. He said to let him know if I changed my mind and left with his truck and trailer when I agreed to that. Thirty minutes later he called me to tell me he was turning around and had the $6,500 in hand. Sometimes they just need to talk themselves into it or see that you’re serious. He also left me a 5 star marketplace review which was a nice bonus.
And I felt bad about driving 2 hours to get a screaming deal on a treadmill only to be told it was upstairs and behind a 24″ door after I got there. No thank you.
I had the weird experience of a backwards negotiation the other day. I was buying a mountain bike for my kid off of Craigslist. It was listed for $400, which was a fair price, and I brought $400 cash with me, hoping to maybe negotiate down but prepared to pay the full price. We looked it over, looked great, and I said “Ok, you have it listed for $400, would you take $350?”. The seller looked surprised and said he thought he had listed it for $300. We checked, it was listed for $400, we agreed on $350, but I’ve never had the seller come in with a lower offer than me as the buyer before!
I had a guy do that.
He was negotiating for me.
He was in a remote dangerous location, and no one would come look once he told them where he was.
He really did not believe I would show up.
Definitely a tactic used by crappy people. They talk something up before they come see it to get you excited for the prospect of an easy sale, then they act all disappointed when they actually view the item and pretend it was misrepresented so you feel guilty and sell it to them for dirt cheap. Had a guy do that with a bike I was selling, but I was so sick of the thing I let it go for way less than I should have.
I know those people, but the drive with a trailer makes me feel it’s not that. This is a guy prepared to buy, not play games. And it’s a guy that does seem to have had the money. I think he just got quesy when the imaginary instagram posts met the reality of a vintage Jeep.
I don’t know, I think of all the times I’ve been on car forums (or personal finance forums) and you run into the “master negotiator” who declares they beat down any seller/dealer into submission with their expert tactics. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone was overconfident and brought the trailer thinking they’d get their way.
The guy that bought my bike drove 400 miles for it and wanted 50% off the price, so he could very well still be playing games. They’re not wrong that cash in your face is hard to turn down, but it’s a fine line between aggressive negotiating tactics and just being a time-wasting lowballer. Some people also just have nothing much going on, so a wasted 10-hour drive isn’t the end of the world.
Had this happen a couple of months ago. I was selling my 96 bronco. I was asking $6500 and given the condition it was a fair price. Interior was nice and was solid mechanically. It had some rust in the rear arches and in the tailgate which I posted detailed pictures of. I had like 25 people message me about it the same day I posted it. The first guy showed up with a trailer from like three hours away and said “I just don’t know about all that rust”. The rust which I had posted detailed pics of. He then offered 4k. I told him I had about 30 people message me about it so I’m sure if he didn’t take it would be gone soon. He left. The second guy that turned up later the same day said the same thing and offered me 4.5k. Turned him down as well. The third guy turned up the next day, looked around it, chekced out the rust, said “yep, just like you posted”, took it around the block, paid me and drove off in it. Within 30 minutes of me posting it as sold the first two guys called me upset that I had sold it and said they had planned on coming back to get it. These jackwagons use whatever they can as a bargaining chip even if it’s acurately described.
“Within 30 minutes of me posting it as sold the first two guys called me upset that I had sold it and said they had planned on coming back to get it.”
This is the part that I don’t get. What is their ask, for you to un-sell it?
I mean, do Americans really learn how to negotiate properly? When, and by whom? No one grows up bargaining at a bazaar, really. It’s a shit show. I flip cars often on FB and Marketplace. Only twice do I remember proper bargaining, with people actually arguing the condition of tires brakes, or other reasonable moves. The rest is illiterate “will you accept 30% CASH TODAY”.
I drove 4 hours round trip to go look at a Salvage-Title Fiesta ST. I had pulled up photos of the crash damage from Copart, so I knew that the damage wasn’t too bad…or so I thought.
I walk up and from 10ft away, I saw the side skirt hanging on for dear life. Started the car and drove it. Clutch was spent, brakes were spent, and the airbag light was still on. I asked about it, and the owner points up at the curtain airbag…that’s missing!!!
The real kicker is when I pulled up the spare tire, and the metal was still incredibly mangled. I didn’t walk away…I ran!
Similar story: Was looking for a truck for my brother and found a 2006 Tacoma 2 hours away. It was a truck from Maine, but had the frame replaced! I show up and crawl under and could see the carpet from the bottom of the truck… The clutch was weak and the AC went out. NOPE!
It happens, you yourself stated that you wished you had looked more closely at the GMT400 you bought out in the middle of nowhere a few months ago. Don’t sweat it, by all appearances you were upfront and honest about the Jeep.
I once made a 10 hour round trip towing a trailer to buy a “Rust Free” 1967 Firebird. When I got there, I found that “Rust Free” meant the kid had filled the rust holes with chicken wire and spray foam. Even worse, it was 10 hour round trip to New Jersey. Thankfully that was back when I was Happy Bob so I thanked him for his time and left politely.
DT, I think you were more than honest with the guy. Don’t feel bad about it.
The dude who rented the trailer and drove 5 hours is the one who has the most invested. It is his responsibility to make sure things that are important to him are as he wants. As long as you were not fraudulent you did nothing wrong. This is 100% on him.
Agreed. The video highlighted the exact condition of the Jeep and David was open to providing more photos upon request. The seller just thought that the bird in the hand method (sell it now for less vs. waiting for potentially more) would net him a better deal. Good on DT for saying no.
I once drove 4 hours to look at a hot rod project. Coincidentally, it was also a Jeep!
Well, a Jeep pickup cab on a “custom” frame with a SBC, TH350 and an S-10 rear end on coilovers.
It looked decent in the ad, and the seller was very good with answering questions.
When I arrived, I knew within 30 seconds that I wasn’t buying it. The “custom” frame was sections of 2″x2″ tubing held together with hopes, dreams, and popcorn welds. No plating, no gusseting, nothing.
I was fairly certain the entire car would collapse after encountering a single bump. I pretended to look it over and consider it for about 5 minutes. Then I thanked him for his time, got in my car, and went home. Didn’t make an offer because I didn’t want to have to undo everything. The cab looked to be in pretty good shape, tho. Everything else, less so.
i think DTs read on the guy deciding to spend a little more on a creampuff is spot on. these jeeps are great if you can do the work yourself. but if you’re sending it to the shop and paying by the hour for metalwork and paint, you may as well just find one that’s done and be all in for your purchase price.
I have yet to see a car in person that looked as nice as the pictures. Maybe those exotics on BaT with 300+ professional pics are, but nothing I’ve ever looked at. Sounds like David was more than reasonable on the price negotiations. And the buyer was right to go home empty handed because it wasn’t what he hoped for.
Spent a whole weekend (my truck and trailer) roadtripping from NY to OH with a friend to buy an E-type years ago. He backed out of the deal when he saw bondo on some seams and the owner claimed they came from the factory like that. Was scared away too by some other questionable projects he had in his big garage.
Always be willing to walk away. The few times I’ve seen purchases justified by “well, we didn’t come all this way for nothing” have turned out to be disasters. And when you look back, the search for the right car is usually a big part of the fun!
Exactly my thoughts. Cars always look better in pictures. And with a 5 hour drive there, I’d take a trailer with me if I didn’t have to rent one (If I did, I’d have have a reservation set up a local U-haul, because sometimes I feel people think you won’t negotiate if you’ve gone to the expense of renting a trailer – but if you’re pretty sure you’re buying it and have already negotiated a price, then it’s a pretty good risk to have the trailer ready because making 2 drives is going to be more expensive than the cost of renting a trailer.)
I also tell people who put in offers without seeing the vehicle in person that I’ll negotiate price in 1 place. If they want a set take or leave it price we can negotiate beforehand via text or e-mail. If they want to negotiate in person, I’m starting at my asking price.
Those are good policies. When I’m shopping I always ask if the price is negotiable before I go look if I think it’s priced too high, rarely make an offer before seeing in person. Most folks say yes to negotiating and some even play their hand and say they won’t go below $X.
And I won’t haggle if I think it’s listed at a fair price. Why be an asshole for a few bucks?
I did that once back in college, though it was justified. I had a rusty old ’88 CRX DX with rust holes so big that when you opened the hatch, the interior light shined down on the ground through the fender hole. Sadly, puddle lights weren’t really a thing back then or I might have joked it was a lux feature.
CRXes in good shape that weren’t slammed and festooned with clear tails, a fart tip and every stupid shiny thing from the Pep Boys “moron aisle” were already really hard to find back then, but I found a ’91 12 hours away that looked great. And it was an Si, so an upgrade and in my price range. I even had a local member of the CRX forum I was on go check it out and he came back with a very enthusiastic report. Perfect condition, I definitely wanted this car, if I didn’t have dibs he’d buy it, etc.
So I drove all the way down there and as soon as I opened the door I saw the rust bubbles on the sill. Closed the door and went home. Not much point paying to upgrade from rusty to less rusty, especially on those cars because rust spreads like wildfire.
Ended up working out because I later found an Si-swapped DX in almost factory condition for less money, and I still have that car today something like 25 years later.
David made a very good effort to read the market and deal in good faith.
When I sell vehicles, I won’t listen to offers, start the haggle or accept any payment before someone shows up and sees the car in person. I won’t commit to a sale in advance, either. Period. I don’t play games in my normal sales business, and I don’t play games here.
Flip side, I don’t and won’t haggle and/or buy before I personally see a vehicle, even if I have to drive several hours twice — first to look/buy, second trip to drag or drive it home. More than once, I’ve discovered that the car’s a rolling turd and that I should run away. It’s not a waste of time/gas to me if seeing it in person saves me the hassles that go with a bad purchase.
If the car’s right, I’ll buy it, even if I can’t take it home right there and then. I’ve not had a seller refuse to leave the car there for a day or two until I return to get it home; I’ll make sure to take title, a bill of sale and keys with me and secure the car, if possible, at time of purchase.
The no haggling/discussion of price is hard when it comes to long distances. I’ve done a FaceTime call, collected pictures, had a conversation over the phone and felt confident with the deal. However, I didn’t want to get on an airplane with $12k in cash.
We agreed on a price, I got a certified check from the bank. We both knew the deal wasn’t done until the check was deposited and title signed, but the price was set. If I wanted to back out I’d be driving a rental home, or catching another flight back.
In the end it all worked out great. Every deal has to have some fluidity as long as both sides have agreed to the ground rules.
I think the fatal flaw in your sales process was not including in your listing, in all caps, no less, “I KNOW WHAT I HAVE!”
I blew it!
Live and learn
Make sure to slip a “no tire kickers” in there to guarantee a 100% certain sale
Serious inquiries only
Always found that baffling.
That’s true. If you don’t say “NO LOWBALLERS,” how are they supposed to know?
“This won’t last long!”
I always ask what is failing on it then?
Crappy bullshit negotiating tactics like this are exactly why I hate selling cars. There are all sorts of people out there looking for kind people to take advantage of and that’s probably what this guy was trying to do. You should take that Jeep to auction.
That’s why the trade-ins and Carvana exist even though we all know we’re getting less than a private sale.
I took a bath selling my truck to the dealer because it had needed so many major repairs in the past few months that I knew selling it privately would be a nightmare, and frankly I just wanted it gone before another big ticket item failed. Sometimes convenience is worth a few grand.
For sure.
Some years ago, I had a guy come to look at my late parents’ car, a 1995.5 Mazda Protegé that I had listed for $4000.
He drove it, then hemmed and hawed, and came up with “well, I was really looking for a $3000 car…”
I went back with “Why did you come and look at a $4000 car then? I’m not dropping my price by 25 percent.” I guess he was expecting a negotiation, but the lowball start annoyed me.
I sold it a short time later for $4000.
Because lots of sellers put high prices thinking some fool will come pay it, but after a short time reality comes in and 3k in cash will leave with a car.