Happy Friday, Autopians! For today’s Showdown, I was all set to feature a three-way shootout of the week’s winners, maybe another “Track, Daily, Burn” competition, but then Wednesday evening I received a Slack message from David, containing a link to a Dodge Viper for sale, and the cryptic question: “That or BMW i8?” I wasn’t sure what to make of that; either his Christmas bonus was a lot bigger than mine was, or his NyQuil-fogged brain was daydreaming of a stablemate for his Jeeps and i3 and Leaf. In any event, I took it as a prompt, so here we are.
But first let’s settle up on yesterday’s matchup. It seems we were in agreement that they’re both quite good deals, and should last a long time yet, but the pull of the cool little Mazda truck was far stronger than the stodgy beige Toyota. I guess it depends on what you’re looking for; I think the Avalon would make a better commuter, with the comfy seats and quiet ride, but the truck might be a superior all-rounder, with the ability to handle more weekend chores. If I had to have only one vehicle (perish the thought!), it would probably be something like that Mazda truck.
That begs the question: if we all love small pickups like that, why did they completely disappear from the market? The Maverick is a decent substitute, but it only comes as a crew cab, and it isn’t a simple body-on-frame leaf-sprung truck truck like this. I suppose we’ll never see the likes of this Mazda in the marketplace again. Good thing they last forever, then, I guess.
All righty then. I’m not one to question the inscrutable motives of our illustrious Editor-In-Chief, but neither do I feel qualified to discuss these cars with any level of expertise. They’re both well out of my league financially, and one of them is technologically as well. However, I do get the gist of them: They’re both designed to go fast and look cool doing it. One of them is a hammer and chisel; the other a laser cutter. One is hair metal; the other techno. I could keep going with the tired clichés, but maybe we’d better just look at the cars.
2008 Dodge Viper SRT-10 – $69,000
Engine/drivetrain: 8.4 liter overhead valve V10, six-speed manual, RWD
Location: Warrenton, OR
Odometer reading: 35,000 miles
Operational status: Ready to scare you, and in need of some exercise
It is impossible to overstate just how bonkers the Dodge Viper is. When it debuted in 1992, Dodge was still selling Dynasty sedans, complete with landau roofs. Its minivans were still more or less square. The hottest performance cars offered were collaborations with Carroll Shelby and had four-cylinder turbo engines. And all of a sudden, here’s this monster, a ten-cylinder roadster with 400 horsepower and no door handles, storming in like the school bully ready to steal the Corvette’s lunch money. It was glorious. When people ask me why I’m a Chrysler fan, I point to stuff like the Viper.
We all expected it to be a flash in the pan, but Chrysler surprised everyone by actually developing the thing, making it nicer and more user-friendly, while at the same time somehow even faster and more brutal. By the time this fourth-generation Viper came around, its V10 displaced a whopping 512 cubic inches and assaulted the rear tires with a full six hundred horsepower. It’s a simple formula, and one that appeals to the lizard brain in all of us: Big engine in front, stickshift in the middle, tire smoke comes out the back.
It’s not what anyone would call refined or elegant; inside it’s standard-issue Chrysler gray plastic, and I’m pretty sure those are the same HVAC controls as were in my old Neon. But who cares? If you want refinement, go look elsewhere. This is a big dumb toy, and an exceptional one at that. It’s everything you always wished your Hot Wheels cars could be, only big enough to actually get in and drive.
The Viper was always at least a little bit about out-Corvetteing the Corvette, and while I hate to make assumptions about anyone, this seller seems to be trying to out-Corvette-owner stereotypical Corvette owners. This car has a scant 35,000 miles on its odometer, and apparently it’s too precious to even back out of the garage for proper photos. It’s been well cared-for, but maybe too well; I’d personally rather look at a cheaper, scruffier Viper with 100,000 miles on it.
2014 BMW i8 Pure Impluse World Package – $58,998
Engine/drivetrain: Turbocharged 1.5 liter DOHC inline 3 plus 98 kw electric motor, six-speed automatic, AWD
Location: Burlingame, CA
Odometer reading: 30,000 miles
Operational status: Ready to reclaim that “Ultimate Driving Machine” title
While the Viper is a throwback to an earlier time, BMW’s now-defunct i8 coupe is very much of the moment. It’s a plug-in hybrid, loaded with all sorts of tech gadgets that I’m sure Thomas Hundal could explain to you if you asked him nicely. I honestly didn’t know much about this car at all until I started researching it, and the more I read about it, the cooler it gets. It’s one of the best parts of this gig: having to learn about cars I didn’t know about so I don’t sound like a complete idiot.
A lot of hybrid vehicles link an electric motor and a gasoline engine together mechanically. Toyota’s hybrid system uses sort of a “push-me-pull-you” arrangement of its electric motor and gasoline engine, and Honda’s hybrids stick the motor between the engine and a traditional gearbox. The i8 has no such connection; its 1.5 liter gas engine drives the rear wheels, and the electric motor drives the front. Either system is capable of operating independently, but are managed together by software. It’s two-two-two drivetrains in one!
This i8 has only 30,000 miles on the clock, and looks like it’s brand new. The absurdly long name is apparently some special trim package, which includes the snazzy blue seat belts. And as we all know, blue means hybrid. I thought the i8’s design was a little busy when it first debuted, but it’s growing on me, and I think this is quite a handsome car. Either that, or car designs have gotten so outrageous in the last ten years that this looks tame now. At least, until you open those butterfly doors.
It’s still a flashy car, and it’s definitely no slouch: Zero to sixty flashes by in a mere 4.4 seconds, and it’s electronically limited to 155 miles an hour. But I fear the visceral feedback is lacking – no big roaring engine, no surge of power as revs build, and while it does have flappy-paddles that allow manual shifting, it’s a far cry from a heavy clutch pedal and a big chunky lever moving actual gears around. I’m sure it’s a ton of fun, and I’d love to drive one, but it’s a different kind of fun, and I think it would take some getting used to.
I’m still not sure what David’s motivation was in pointing these cars out to me. But I’m glad he did; it gives me a chance to dive into some stuff I don’t normally get to write about. And speaking of the unusual, next week I’m going to feature all weird reader suggestions. (That’s weird suggestions from readers, not suggestions from weird readers, but I guess either way works.) Post your suggestions to the Discord, or on Opposite Lock, and I’ll pick out the ones that move me, and pit them against each other. I already have a pair for Monday, but the rest of the week is wide open. Tell me what you want to see!
(Image credits: Craigslist sellers)
If I had to pick a daily, it would be the i8, but these are not daily drivers so the Viper seems like the logical choice. Less to break and I would expect pricing is only going to climb at this point.
Loved the i8 and its looks and tech since it debuted and never got on the Viper train, so an easy one for me today. To me, the i8 is the 21st century reincarnation of the M1.
The i8 seems good until something breaks. You think your E46 has expensive parts and maintenance?
I worked at a dealer when those were coming out and when something went wrong on them, it meant being on a lift for at least a week.
Definitely the i8. This is caveman korg vs spaceman spiff and I’d rather be spiffy.
This video comparing the i8 to the Polestar 1 (another incredible hybrid) is a great watch: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ_tzvWMCLs&pp=ygUJQm13IGk4IHZz
In particular, the demonstration of how to get into the i8 at 6:15 is guaranteed to generate a LOL moment every time.
There are a lot of comments in here about Viper pricing.
I encourage those folks to actually look up what Gen IVs cost (2008-10 only, don’t confuse them with 2003-06 Gen III that looks the same but isn’t).
It is difficult or impossible to get into a clean title car for less than $65-70K.
There are not many 600 hp sports cars from other manufacturers available for less either.
Pricing trends are strongly in favor of the Viper too; that i8 will be available for $25K someday.
By all means, if you don’t like how a Viper drives, pick the BMW, but don’t do so simply because of the money. One of these cars is a good deal, and one isn’t.
I’m thinking by that time, you will be able to find non-running examples for $5k, they’ll cost $50k to fix, and be worth $25k once fixed…
Might as well turn it into a frankenstein build and not worry about its value. As an investment, the i8 a poor choice, while the Viper is IMO a great choice. That i8’s design is beautiful and it’s about as slippery as modern cars get. And I buy cars to either drive or as projects, not as investments, so…
I figured you might have some insight on this, but do the 2008+ vipers have any issues/failures with their cam-in-cam VVT system? Its a cool design, but I’ve been curious as to why this is the only car that has this type of system on it (probably cost).
I’ve not heard of any, but of course most cars are low miles still.
The cost is almost certainly the reason why GM never went to this design, why Chrysler never used it on the Hemi, etc. I remember looking up the cost of a cam once and I believe it was some 10x the price of an LS cam.
Last MSRP for the cam was $2,035. Checked on it because I was interested.
Sadly, the cam in NLA as of April 21st, 2023 too, so there’s that issue for any potential buyers.
Interesting… thanks guys!
There are aftermarket cams too, obviously sacrificing the VVT.
Unfortunately, those are not cheap either.
My initial thought was the price seems high, but I did search for only 2008 – 2010 Vipers and I guess I was wrong. I found four that appear comparable to this vehicle (similar miles, clean title, no obvious defects); two are listed for around $62k, one is $69k, and one is $79k. There are several for sale in the 80k to 100k range, but those have less miles. This car seems priced appropriately.
I’ve driven several Vipers, but never an i8, so can’t compare them.
But I don’t think much of anything compares to a Viper, except maybe a Top Fuel dragster, if the latter had room for two.
The Dodge is the only choice here, and the choice is as simple as the car itself. It’s what we all used to dream about: too much power in a swoopy body. It can be driven sensibly, but is much more fun — and more scary — when you throw caution to the wind.
I like the i8 a lot, but I’m really more of a hammer and chisel guy, so Viper for me please.
Yeah, it’s the rawness of it that’s so appealing for me. There are a fair amount of cars like the BMW, but few like the Viper.
(basically b/c actual Shelby Cobras are unobtainium at this point).
Totally agree.
In my minds eye, I can absolutely envision Lee Iacocca and Carroll Shelby discussing it, and Shelby convincing him to finally pull the trigger (as I understand Iacocca was hesitant at first). “Just like the old days, Lee.”
Iacocca was 100% absolutely against it, but got overruled HARD. He was still in the business of selling stretched and poofy K-cars that appealed to his generation with tufted leather seats, Landau roofs, and chunky 85 mph speedometers. At this time, he even wanted to come out with a Frank Sinatra edition of the New Yorker, complete with baby blue paint and Sinatra cassettes standard. And the board and other executives were aghast. So it actually angered them greatly when Iacocca was strutting his stuff next to a Viper and acting like it was his, when behind the scenes he did everything in his power to try to kill it.
Huh…fascinating and thanks for setting me straight! I’d heard he came around to embracing it when (in true Iacocca fashion) he realized the good press it would generate. But not totally surprised I guess, given his formative time at Chrysler…it must have seemed like a huge money pit to him.
Viper wins. Vipers are cool. The price seems a bit high, but I wouldn’t worry too much about that. I expect this car will appreciate in the future. I don’t look at cars as an investment, but something like this is an exception. I doubt anyone will be selling 600 hp V10 sports cars in 2040. Buy a car like this while you still can.
I’m talking myself into buying this car. Fortunately for my wallet, I literally cannot fit in a Viper, so I guess I’ll have to pass.
There was an attorney I know who shows up one day with a Viper.
He told me that he got it as a fee for defending a guy in a case.
I asked, “What kind of case?”
He said “He’s accused of sex crimes involving teenage boys. The car was his bait.”
So, No to the Viper. Just no…
For some reason, I can totally picture it in that garish first-gen Hulk Hogan red with yellow wheels/accents color scheme.
Viper. There are plenty of hybrid and electric performance vehicles out there, and many others will arrive as we move towards an electric future. There’s nothing else like the Viper. I know it’s cliche to say this, but a car like that will never be built again. There are faster cars but nobody else has tried to combine absolutely savage performance with a bare minimum of what else was needed to make it road legal. Is this one overpriced? I don’t know, but I do know the value will only go up as these become more and more scarce.
Viper. All day, every day, and twice on Sunday.
How is this even a contest?
I just finished watching the 2nd season of “Riviera” in which the lead character tools around the Riviera in a beautiful orange i8 (which replaced her 911 that, spoiler alert, gets blown up towards the end of the first season.
So I want to vote for the Bimmer. But I fear the cost of ownership for such a German mega-techno-mobile would bankrupt me. In fact, I think I just lost a couple of grand just thinking about owning such a car.
So I’ll hypothetically take the uncivilized ‘Murican. And glory be to those who stuff uncouth “truck engines” into sexy-ass sports cars and then throw in a parts-bin interior that can be maintained for the next 50 years!
i8 all day. I’ve still only seen two behaving like real cars in the wild, and still remember the exact place, time of day, and even the weather. They are dramatic and leave an impression.
Vipers are rad and all, but slightly overcompensate-y for my tastes. Also they try to kill you a little too much.
Cars that try to kill you rule. They force you to become a better driver and demand respect. Anyone can hop in a Model S Plaid or modern hypercar and hit 60 in 2 seconds every single time without issue. It takes real, legitimate skill to drive a Viper fast.
I’m a huge fan of cars that try to kill you. So much so I built a pedal-electric tricycle, because it’s a tiny, miniaturized, laughable mockery of a car, and still tries to kill me even more. It’s great!
100% this. For me, cars aren’t just a thing, there’s inherent activity involved. So human engagement with them matters in a big way, and I’m a big fan of anything that increases rather than decreases it.
Yes. I was a cheap fwd guy, then bought the MRoadster. It warns me all the time that death is just a right-foot twitch away—but I am a better driver for it.
Used to love cars I could over-drive: decided it was time to grow up
If you want a car that will try to kill you I can sell you a Nissan Frontier with worn-out ball joints for a bit less than that Viper. Guaranteed 0-60 in 2.8s if you miss the guardrail.
I feel like there’s a distinction to be made between quick, fun RWD sports cars with few nannies and… a Viper. I’ve got hundreds of miles on mountain twisties and several track days under my belt in the former, but I’m approaching 40 and have three kids so the latter is a non-starter.
So, the Viper is the rich man’s Corvair?
I saw an i8 outside the cathedral in Roskilde and it sticks with me nearly a decade later.
Exactly! The last one I saw was a black beauty parked in a pass-through midwest town probably around 2013. It was at a restaurant right off the highway. Sunny day, it was squeaky clean and waxed. I think they look best in black to hide some of the odd two-tone parts (like giving birth to a 911).
I’ve probably seen a dozen Vipers since then, but couldn’t tell you where or when.
This is a tricky one, because that Viper appears to be a bit overpriced. There’s definitely some I KNOW WHAT I GOT, NO LOWBALLERS energy to the listing as well. It’s a lot of money for a nice but not immaculate example.
I’m also one of those sickos who’s always liked the i8. It’s a striking car and the hybrid technology was neat and ahead of the curve. I do understand the “it’s a sheep in wolf’s clothing” takes, as it looks like a hypercar but is slower than most of the M Lites, but I still think it’s cool…and it’s one of those cars that’s depreciated to the point that I might be able to afford one if I REALLY wanted to, so I’ve casually researched them a bit.
With that out of the way…Viper, 10 times out of 10. I cannot even begin to imagine what the costs for keeping an aging BMW technological showcase running are, but I have a few ideas based on the horror stories I’ve read about their older flagship models like the E31 8 Series. Suffice to say, there’s a reason why you can get i8s for less than a C8 Corvette…and in a few years you’ll probably be able to get one for the price of a Toyobaru.
The Viper is one of the easiest exotics to keep running and it’s just a huge, under stressed, naturally aspirated engine. You absolutely do not want to daily a Gen IV, but as a weekend/cars and coffee/track day car Vipers are an amazing choice as long as you know what you’re getting into and treat them with respect. There’s a reason why they have a reputation similar to that of a Mustang…you cannot return to monke off the line or mid corner in them and expect to walk away unscathed.
So don’t! Treat it with respect and you’ll have a blast. I’d love to own a Viper one day and they’re impossible not to love.
The i8 has a drag coefficient of 0.26.
This is after they gussied up the original BMW Vision Efficient Dynamics concept car with crap. THAT has a 0.22.
That said, I’m not a fan of the i8’s powertrain or tech. Go full EV, or go home!
The Viper’s engine on the other hand, THAT is serviceable, parts are available, and the damned thing is so delightfully brutal. WHY do all the big engined cars have to go into oversized, overweight lardasses with brick-like aero?
Ze Germans should have harkened back to the days of the Auto Union streamliner. Big engine in a lightweight, slippery car, equates to a raw, hot, nasty, badass speed that far exceeds the Viper, AND you get fuel efficiency to go with it for your A to B driving.
The Carrera GT is probably the closest modern-ish German car to what would satisfy your tastes, but it exceeds 3,000 pounds so I assume it remains a no-go.
The Carrera GT also a little bit too wide for my liking. I like them narrow so that they can slip through smaller openings.
Something the size of a Ginetta G4 or Fisher Fury kit car is very much to my liking, but no one makes anything that small anymore. Something that size with a Tesla drivetrain swap or a big monster V8 in either a front-mid engine or rear-mid engine layout, with either RWD or AWD, and massive attention to streamlining the body, would be my ideal.
Overpriced, yes. But also, $69k? Nice.
69k Viper? Aka the car that looks like a rolling frank and beans? EXTRA nice!
I’ll take the BMW because I’m all classy and shit.
Voted BMW, because it’s just so cool. In real life, the decision would come down to the driving experience and feel. Test drives are a must.
Viper all the way here. Massive engine, same climate controls as the 2004 Ram 3500 I used to drive at work. Plus the local garage will likely service it when something goes wrong.
If only there were a way to get the Viper’s engine into the i8’s aerodynamically slippery body…
For aesthetics and design philosophy, I like the 1st gen Viper. If the one on offer was that, I’d have picked it.
I must go with i8 on this.
The anecdotes that most BMW dealers refuse to service the i8, and costs are absolutely astronomical and parts are a nightmare to find (except ICE engine bits which is just pulled from a Mini) scares me straight into the Viper. Also there’s the fact that the viper is just all around the one I’d rather have, and give it 2-3 years and the i8’s ownership cost will far exceed the Viper’s even with a 10k purchase price difference
Depending on reliability and how much you drive with a heavy foot, the viper’s fuel bill might balance that out.
2-3 years? My brother in Christ…the ownership costs of the i8 will exceed the price delta between these two in the first 3-6 months.
I’d mutilate the hell of that i8 by gutting so much of it out and doing a Tesla drive swap. I like the shell that everything is in, but not much else.
I only said 2-3 years since that may be the amount of time it takes to get a shop to actually do any work on an i8…
In all seriousness though, yeah you’re definitely right. Every account of long term i8 ownership I’ve seen online makes Maserati Biturbo ownership a compelling alternative
Which is precisely why it is the one to choose
I voted BMW as that is the one of the two I would actually want to own myself. After a quick search it also looks like the asking price of the BMW seems more in line with the market than the Vipers is as well?
$70K is a bit high but not terribly out of line for a good Gen IV, and unlike the BMW it is probably at or near the bottom of its depreciation.
I came here specifically for your views. 🙂
BTW is that the stock hood?
I’m about to type a longer comment upthread because there’s misinformation floating around in this thread.
Yes it is the stock hood.
I think that price is insane for the Viper, but I also think I would get 10k worth of extra value out of it and I suspect in a few years it will be worth around the same amount if not more as cars trend more and more towards automatics and smaller engines. Also ultimately, I just don’t trust the BMW to be running in 10 years and it has way less support for things that will break.
I’m going Viper, not just because I love the Viper, but also because the asking price is at least near what they are selling for in my region. Granted, the price for the Viper is a bit high, but unfortunately the lovely i8 is selling for a whole lot less in my area. I appreciate the i8 for what it is, but I’m not as willing to take a bath on residual value.
I drove a lot of Vettes and F-bodies that were very similar to the Viper’s experience. They were a blast, but I’m an old coot now. I’ll take the refined robot.
I think that you’d better expect weird suggestions from even weirder readers. Have you read our comments?