Because it’s election season there’s a lot of talk about “bellwethers.” These are counties or regions where the population just happens to have the right mix of voters to be predictive of larger trends. The Washington congressional primary, for instance, is one of the traditional bellwethers for the presidential race, as it features a voter skew that can be prescriptive of Midwestern and Rust Belt trends.
If there’s a place in America that’s a “bellwether” for electric vehicles it’s Silicon Valley and, specifically Santa Clara County. It’s also a place where Tesla is losing ground fast to its rivals. Why?
While we’re exploring the big questions in this chapter of The Morning Dump, why do we think used car sales suddenly took off in August? The UAW has a lot of questions for Stellantis. Specifically, the union would like to know if the company is going to ship Dodge Durango production somewhere else.
And, finally, how can Volkswagen save some money as it faces an uncertain future? Hint: It’s probably layoffs.
“More And More People Have Just Had It With [Musk]”
Tesla CEO Elon Musk famously moved the HQ of his company from Silicon Valley, where Tesla was born, to Austin, Texas. It could have just been about tax breaks, or whatever, but Musk himself has said it’s because of laws signed by Governor Gavin Newsom that create more protections for LGBTQ+ students. It’s part of a larger pattern of strong opinions from Musk, lately, especially on his own platform.
Do people care? There’s some evidence that people are not buying Teslas as Musk’s favorability slips, though Tesla is still by far the biggest electric carmaker in America and I know plenty of people who held their noses and bought Model Ys because they were such a good deal.
I think it depends on where you are and who you are. People in West Virginia, for instance, might support Musk’s views and be more amenable to buying Teslas, even if West Virginia has one of the lowest adoption rates for EVs in the country.
Earlier I mentioned that Silicon Valley is a bellwether for electric car purchases. I remember visiting Stanford right at the beginning of the EV revolution and marveling at how many EVs I saw (mostly Teslas and Leafs because that’s all there really was). The data backs this up. Two of the main counties that make up Silicon Valley (Santa Clara and San Mateo) are also two of the biggest counties in the United States by EV miles traveled per capita.
If you want to look anywhere to find out what people want in terms of electric cars it’s a great place to start.
So, how’s it going? According to S&P Mobility, via this Automotive News article, it’s not going well for Tesla:
“I pull up to an intersection and every car is a Tesla Model Y, and I’m also driving one because it’s the modern Toyota Camry,” said Loren McDonald, head of Silicon Valley consultancy EVAdoption. “But there are a lot of reluctant Tesla owners who don’t want to give Elon any more money. More and more people have just had it with him.”
In Santa Clara County, the heart of Silicon Valley, new Tesla registrations fell 22 percent from January through July from the same period a year earlier, while EV rivals saw 41 percent growth, according to S&P Global Mobility. The data includes new battery-electric vehicles but not hybrids.
Santa Clara is home to Google, Apple, Intel, Stanford, and a bunch of other traditionally EV-forward companies and institutions. The dramatic decline in Tesla registrations, while everyone else is going up, isn’t a great sign. Some of this is probably due to big price cuts in Teslas last year, which took some buyers out of the market. Tesla also fell 21% across all Silicon Valley counties, though rivals only grew by 1.4% when the other counties are considered.
So who is picking up market share from Tesla?
Tesla was still the top EV brand in California with 56 percent of the market, although that was a big drop from its 64 percent share in the year-earlier period, according to S&P Global Mobility.
Brands gaining on Tesla for EV registrations include Hyundai with 55 percent growth from January through July compared with a year earlier. Rivian had a 50 percent rise and Ford a 24 percent gain, S&P Global Mobility said. California’s total EV registrations reached 232,353 in the seven-month period.
Competition was always inevitable for Tesla and the degree to which Musk’s behavior is accelerating a market share decline is likely hard to prove. Still, if there’s any state in the nation to be turned off by Musk it’s probably California.
Used Car Sales Surge In August
I mentioned this summer that the used car market was acting in somewhat unpredictable ways, and it’s only getting weirder. If you’re a buyer you should embrace the weirdness like a dad who has been dragged to 100 gecs concert. It’s good for you!
In particular, sales are way way way up in August. A total of 1.7 million used cars were sold at retail dealerships, up 13.6% year-over-year and 8% month-over-month. Just look at that graphic. With new car sales held back by interest rates, economic uncertainty, the election, et cetera, why are used car sales suddenly doing better?
Cox Automotive has an explanation, and it’s a positive one for consumers:
“Used retail sales picked up steam in August as affordability in the used market improved slightly,” said Scott Vanner, senior analyst of Economic and Industry Insights at Cox Automotive. “The increase in sales is partly attributed to the change in inventory mix, with a notable rise in units sold priced under $15,000 in August.”
It’s almost like America wants affordable cars. Crazy!
Where Is The Durango Going?
The Dodge Durango is a vehicle sold in the United States, which is how I would describe it to anyone asking me if they should buy one. Some people like it. It does have an available V8 and has resisted the softening that’s plagued a lot of three-row crossovers. Sales are only down 11% year-over-year, which is better than a lot of Stellantis products.
It’s currently a vehicle built in the Detroit Assembly Complex-Jefferson, which is known to all normal human beings as Jefferson North. The UAW doesn’t think it’s going to keep being built there and is pissed. Everyone else is just confused as to why the UAW thinks this is happening.
What does Stellantis have to say?
From the Detroit Free Press:
“[T]he union said it filed unfair labor practice charges with the National Labor Relations Board against the automaker that owns the Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, Dodge and Fiat brands for its “illegal refusal to provide information about the company’s plans regarding product commitments,” which the union said also violates the contract.
Stellantis provided a statement about the unfair labor practice charges, which were confirmed by an NLRB spokeswoman. However, the company response did not answer questions about the alleged efforts to move Durango production.
Huh. That’s strange! I wonder why they won’t directly answer such a simple question.
Volkswagen Is Ditching Its In-House Captive Finance Company
If you’re an employee at Volkswagen Financial Services it might be a good time to update your resume as the company has announced it’s going to stop writing loans and instead kick that business to Wells Fargo starting next week. VWFS will still handle loans and other “usage-based” products.
What about the company’s employees?
According to a Volkswagen Financial Services employee who asked not to be identified, executive leadership has said organizational change would occur because of the Wells Fargo partnership but provided no details. However, team leaders have predicted large job cuts to the U.S. operation would arise, the employee said. Volkswagen had not responded about the employee’s account and assessment.
Bummer.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
There’s a gray, cool sky out my window and it looks the way Belle & Sebastian make me feel. Piazza, New York Catcher, are you straight or are you gay?
The Big Question
Is Silicon Valley a canary in a coalmine or just a weird place whose experiences can’t be extrapolated?
Top photo: HBO/Silicon Valley
At this point I won’t buy a Tesla, becasue it won’t suit my needs, but I have no problem with them existing. The whole Elon thing is an issue, but I haven’t grappled with it since I’m not a potential customer.
I do not use Uber, due to their boardroom scumbaggery, so maybe that’s a template for me. But even then, I don’t find ignoring them negatively affects my life/lifestyle in any way. Plenty of easy options to go from A to B without them. I do a lot of travel and I have never found the ‘best’ option at home or in another city to be Uber. I’m convinced they have simply sold people on some sort of koolaid. Perhaps it’s the addiction to novelty…
I’ll give Elon credit for one thing. He accepts that he has more than enough money so burning on tantrums is not a problem for him. We can’t accuse him of greed. /s
There sure are a lot of people in here with such high uncompromised morals that they would NEVER buy a product from a company that has a questionable figurehead or could potentially be linked to such a person. I’m sure there is no hypocrisy of any kind here and if we looked at all your purchases you used that same logic in everything you bought or where you bought them from. Or, and I’m just spit-balling here: People purchased a product they liked irrespective of the largest stock-holder. To call people who purchase a Tesla “morally compromised” is a broad brush stroke that makes you no different from Musk himself.
Enrrrng, no, buzzbuzzbuzz, bad take.
Your broad brush puts cars, which are highly subject to consumer preference and having a relatively robust marketplace with as-close-to-perfect-as-exists-in-the-real-world control for the consumer to accept or decline the contents or context of the product offered, on parity with other goods and services in which the consumer has little to no power save to abstain from modernity.
Are you going to tell the ER docs not to use that tourniquet until you’ve vetted the rubber for the latex was sustainably harvested? That the urethane tubes are recyclable and the CEO of the Medical Supply Corp volunteers with kittens on weekends?
Some things consumers still can’t get away from:
You know what a consumer can get away from?
I don’t have to accept what I can easily avoid, just because I can’t readily avoid the things I can’t readily avoid.
Not to mention that the thing that is easily avoidable is thousands of times more expensive than the stuff that is more difficult to avoid.
Some things consumers still can’t get away from: Conflict minerals
Sure you can if those minerals are diamonds.
Buy synthetic, they’re even better than diamonds from dirt! They also cost about $300/carat or less to make so they’re cheaper too.
Incredibly well put. Going off prior discussions here, I’d also say, I’d be a lot more suspicious of your average Cybertruck buyer than your average 3/Y buyer.
*Types reply on a device based on semiconductors that are the product of, and integral to the military industrial complex.*
I’ve seen several people here comment about people saying they wouldn’t buy Tesla because of Musk, but questioning whether they’d actually back that talk with action.
Musk is resulting in consumers I know removing Teslas from the cars they’d consider before they do any other research on the cars themselves.
In the last two weeks, two people I know found themselves in the market for a new car after having been in collisions (one hit by a drunk driver, and one by a distracted driver) that totaled their old cars. One had been driving a 2019 Model 3, and one a newer hybrid. Both were explicit about not wanting a Tesla to replace their old cars, and both were explicit about Musk being the #1 reason why. Both followed through and bought EVs from other makers.
My wife and I bought an S in 2015 and a 3 in 2018. We’ve sold the S and replaced it with a Rivian. We were planning to replace the 3, and had considered a Y, but Musk was enough to make us pause. The direction he’s taken the company and their cars isn’t one we like, but his politics have absolutely removed any doubt. We’ll be selling the 3 and replacing it with a new EV in the next year, and it won’t be a Tesla.
Having driven EVs for 9+ years now, I’m regularly asked about them by people in the market for new cars. Several other friends have purchased new cars in the last year, and none picked Teslas despite having considered them and asking me about them in years past. These were all people I would have identified as likely buyers a few years ago, and all of them chose non-Tesla EVs or hybrids instead.
My Dad bought a 3 in 2018 and traded it for a Y in 2023. With all of Musk’s antics, he traded it for a Plug in Hybrid SUV a couple months back. “Loved the cars, can’t stand the guy behind them”
I feel like there’s lots of people out there like that. I have spotted some “I bought it before he was crazy” bumper stickers on Teslas.
I missed out when I told my wife I should market “It’s possible to drive and Tesla AND think Elon’s an asshole” bumper stickers and didn’t follow through on it.
True, this all resonates. I have plenty of left leaning friends who own Teslas, mostly purchased pre-Twitter but not all. I also have plenty of friends who would never buy a Tesla now, due to Musk. I don’t know where I stand! My opinion truly fluctuates all the time as I think about my upcoming EV purchase. Fluctuates between a hard no on a Tesla due to Musk, and a well maybe go for the Y due to the massive number produced (lots of used options, lots of parts options, etc.), and generally positively reviewed product. I’ll let you all know where I come down LOL. I think it is a serious problem for Tesla though. I think most car buyers know they don’t agree with giant car companies in all respects. But not having it in your face is a huge deal. And constantly feeling mildly uncomfortable about your car is not something most folks want to opt into, nor do they want regular negative reminders about that feeling.
Let’s call it Muskrat Love!
“I know plenty of people who held their noses and bought Model Ys because they were such a good deal.”
Yeah, sure, “held their noses” *eye roll*
That’s the problem, when people are more than willing to choose prioritizing their wallets more than their principles & beliefs. Good grief.
But, yeah, it does indeed look like more and more people are choosing alternatives now, fortunately.
I understand and fully support that people should put their dollars where their values are.
Where do we stand on buying goods from China? They have committed international crimes.
I’d love to not buy stuff from China, however that’s not the reality, although I don’t go out of my way to buy stuff from China, I also don’t check for alternatives either.
What about buying VW products, VW being a car company started by actual Nazi’s? Sure the government later sold them off, but without the Nazis VW wouldn’t exist.
Whereas Musk has said things people don’t like or said things he failed to, or now associates with someone people don’t like. He may have done more, I don’t follow twitter / X / my-face-snap-gram-rumble-toc so I’m not fully up to speed with his goings on. I think he’s the worlds richest man (or one of them) so he must be doing something right – if that’s how we choose to measure a man.
Of course he got rid of turns signals and should be disliked just for that.
Is it all a form virtue signaling to some degree? Do we say we don’t care what other people think, but then we don’t want to be judged by other people for our choices?
I think the difference between VW (and Ford) and Tesla is that VW’s association with fascism was over 80 years ago and everyone involved is probably dead.
Though VW has certainly done other crimes since.
It IS all virtue signaling to some degree.
Which I am fine with too.
If you do actual good stuff to virtue signal you are still doing actual good stuff.
Life is complex.
I’m on the other coast, but still in a very similar populous. For lack of better term, most people I associate with are “Costal Elites”. Basically high income earners, in a high cost of living area, who would rather walk barefoot thru a volcano then give a vote to someone with a R next to there name. And they loved Tesla. It was one of the few opportunities to buy a lavish thing without suffering a perceived moral failings that would come with buying a Corvette or like. And it’s a group, largely thanks to Apple, who are conditioned to replace a think every two years for a marginal gain. Now, I’m pretty sure, Elon thought his Cult of Personality, would withstand some questionable comments. But, it for sure didn’t. Hitching his wagon to a New Yorker who polls below Arod in Cambridge, was a bridge too far. And with some borderline peer products coming out, there’s a safe harbor for jilted lovers. Mainly Rivian, but also Kia, Vag, and a few people bought Nissan Ariya.
How many people are like this? I’m sure not a ton. Still was a very safe bloc, where Tesla could move a shoe with a couple AA’s tape to it, if the logo was big enough and it was new. Now, I ain’t the world’s riches manor anything. But breaking the safest consumer you had, all for an outside shot at political power and maybe protecting one’s self from a 44 billion dollar impulse purchase seems like directly shooting yourself in the left foot, hoping the ambulance will bring you to the promise land, and I don’t think this will workout long term.
Also well said.
People are something else, right?
Thankful Tesla provided the products they did to move the conversation.
And many folks who are not terminally online prob don’t care about Musk a lot.
If Tesla can continue to make the Model Y the Default Car for folks who don’t want to/can’t/won’t go down a moral wormhole then I think they will keep doing fine.
Another Masshole?
Perfect timing – I just watched the episode of Silicon Valley (great show!) screenshotted up top last night…While watching that episode, which is from 2018, I thought that the “Tesla-as-a-techie-status-symbol” thing was a pretty interesting time capsule that didn’t really age well. First, the 3 and the Y made Tesla less of a status thing, then Elon’s fascist pivot and the CT made the brand more of a culture war signifier. Pretty wild to think how much the brand’s perception has changed in just over 6 years.
Plenty of morally compromised people. Rationalize it however you want… you’re supporting and enabling a toxic jerk.
One of them is an employment lawyer, I think he’s pretty sure he’s going to get that money back one way or another.
Was in the more red region of the bay area over the weekend. Was waiting for an EVGo charging spot to open up, and had a chat with a lady in her son’s F150 Lighting. She was new to EVs, and she mentioned how there were no instructions on the EVGo station. I said that’s why you go Tesla, for ease of operation. She made a face.
But yeah, I discourage friends and family from giving Musk their hard-earned money so he can spend it to make the world a worse place.
Wells Fargo, what a scummy lender. Personal experience long before their fake account fraud.
VW, a scummy car company. Never forget Dieselgate. (⩺︷⩹)
We finally have a picture of Toecutter! I’ve been wondering what they look like!
Sorry, but at this point, I will not buy a Tesla, ever. I know they are great cars, but I won’t because of Elon. We have discussed this before in TMD. And, it comes down to advertisement. If you advertise your opinion, you must expect there to be repercussions as a result of that opinion.
You choose to advertise your opinion, allowing me to choose to interact with you or your business.
You don’t need to do this, and you definitely probably shouldn’t if you side with rich narcissists (and perhaps are one yourself) that are fully disconnected from the general population that is paying attention to what is going on around them, and cares about their neighbor.
So, no, I won’t be buying a Tesla, but I am in the market for an EV.
Were great cars, past tense. Sorry I can’t consider cars without a turn signal stalk to be good.
‘Picture of Toecutter’ was my immediate thought.
-though I don’t think he has ever admitted to having a Burning Man phase
I have always thought of that douche as the Steve Jobs of cars. Both deserve no money from me. I have not once thought of those things as great cars, they were and still are quality nightmares.
That’s the first thing I thought of too, but then I noticed there wasn’t even a windscreen. The CD on that thing must be crap.
I don’t look anything like that dude, and my trikes are lower to the ground and not nearly as offroad worthy as the ne featured in the picture. Still, it was an interesting trike to look at.
I’m a full-time nomad traveling around the West. I have become accustomed to the majority of vehicles being pickups, SUVs and crossovers. I hadn’t been to the Bay Area in a few years (used to live there) and was not only impressed by the high percentage of EVs but also the high percentage of SEDANS. Yes! Actual sedans, man! They aren’t dead yet. Also nearly all the pickups I saw were commercial vehicles. It was like going back in time.
I think Tesla genuinely has problems at the moment, at least in terms of US sales. I don’t think Elon’s personality is the issue, though. Tesla hasn’t come out with anything new or interesting since the Model 3/Y, and the Model S is now old enough to be on buy-here-pay-here lots. Updated versions of all Tesla vehicles have been released over the last few years, but the vehicles are mostly the same. If you aren’t a Tesla fan, you might not be able to distinguish a 2024 from a 2018 or a 2014. In some ways, new Tesla models are actually worse than older models (one example would be eliminating the stalks; this has made the controls far less intuitive).
Tesla needs to build something new that has mass appeal. There are a lot of options that could work – a cheaper car that competes with the Bolt, a conventional pickup truck that is sized like the Maverick, a van, etc. I’m sure they can come up with something if they stop focusing on self-driving vehicles (the technology doesn’t appear to be ready for that yet) and sideshows like the Cybertruck or the upcoming Roadster.
People focus on Elon’s controversial opinions, but I see his product planning as a bigger barrier to continued success.
Completely agree.
I tend to discount people complaining about cars like the Charger or 370Z being on sale forever, because the people who buy them don’t always value the latest and greatest.
By contrast, the person buying a brand new modern EV probably cares a lot whether it looks exactly like a 10 year old version of the same car.
I can’t tell the difference between any Tesla by year. I can only tell the difference between models.
The only real difference I can see is that the S had the black fake grill on the very early ones. Outside of that, they look identical. I think the 3 got angrier looking headlights recently too.
I can’t tell the difference between any Tesla, period. The Y, S, X and 3 look so similar that unless they are next to each other, they are nearly indistinguishable. It doesn’t help that they only seem to come in 4 colors and almost universally have no badging.
I still get the X and Y confused, they look the same to me
I agree Tesla needs another mainstream product that will be a volume seller. The issue is doing so would be an admission that they are not a tech company. You can debate if they are a car company or not (they are) but having investors see this would almost certainly tank the stock price. They are stuck between a rock and a stupid place.
Tech companies roll out new products all the time though.
It’s easy to forget that a lot of people aren’t online as much, so they might be discouraged from buying a Model Y because even Nissan is putting out something newer and fresher.
But given how many people I know who will mention how much they hate the guy, and how many people who buy EVs are also online, I think him being a weird racist is definitely a major factor in sales declines.
Definitely need to do the double punch of making him shut up and actually doing a comprehensive and visible update of every model.
He’s racist as well? When did that happen?
Probably in the blood emerald years.
Like, specifically how? Probably isn’t an answer. I’m being serious here, adding racists to the litany of insults isn’t one I’m familiar with.
I can’t tell if you’re serious or not. Do you have eyes and ears?
For a long time now. There were several lawsuits surrounding racist discrimination – including a $3.2 million settlement at Tesla – and he regularly reposts racist memes on Twitter. His obsession with fathering children is also driven by the idea that white people are being “replaced.”
Well, I do follow him and the content of his posts lately have been almost exclusively either about SpaceX, the illegal shenanigans in Brazil, and the SAVE act. I can’t recall seeing a “racist” meme, but then again, I don’t hunt down his posts specifically. They might exist, but it’s not the general vibe I get from what I’ve seen.
As to what he posts about procreating, it’s been pretty much all about the general population decline across the world. Again, that’s just what I have seen.
New would be the cybertruck, though that in reality was 3 years old before the first one actually made it to the public.
The Cybertruck is new, but realistically, I can’t imagine any rational person expected it to be a high-volume mainstream product. At this point, the vast majority of Tesla sales are the Model 3 and Y.
I’m not sure how well Tesla can do selling only two models, particularly since they are similar.
Agree – there’s a BHPH lot here in OKC that is majority Teslas. Lots of Model S, lots of Model 3. The shine has definitely worn off that diamond.
I recently shopped for vehicles and wouldn’t consider a Tesla because of Musk. It’s not that we don’t agree politically – I assume I don’t have much common ground with any high level auto executives. It’s because he is impulsive and his power within the company is entirely un-checked.
If I disagree with the CEO of Honda and send an insulting tweet, I may get blocked. If I own a Tesla and send a tweet Elon finds insulting, he could brick my car. It would be stupid for him to do it, but there is no adult in the room to stop him from doing it.
He should be spending more time claiming credit for someone else’s work.
He can do better than brick it: steer it off a cliff with you locked inside. Definitely an ability his mean 5-yr old mind would consider cool.
I can imagine him just remotely turning on my heated seats on a warm day and laughing maniacally. Like a less-cool Captain Chaos (South Park, not DeLuise).
This is totally something I do to my friends when riding in cars with them…
Some might argue that this is a big enough reason not to buy ANY car that is so connected. Why would you want a vehicle that is capable of being commandeered remotely?
I don’t want a connected car. It seems like the value is all for the owner of the data and none for the vehicle owner.
That said, if the ability to commandeer exists, I’d rather the button not be in the hands of a guy looking for something to do when he’s done burning ants with a magnifying glass.
I’ve always kind of liked the current Durango, but not enough that it would be high on my list for the segment or as a recommendation. At this point it’s pretty aged, but 2023 was the current generation’s best sales year ever in the US. Yet isn’t production of the current one supposed to end at some point? Or is that a Mandela effect on my part confusing it with another model?
It would seem like they could just build more Grand Cherokees at that plant and/or add a line for the L, assuming they’re able to also…sell more Grand Cherokees, since that has had a steeper sales decline.
I know someone that had one. They bought it primarily because they needed to tow a boat, so they got a V8 Durango. It was less expensive than a Tahoe/Yukon/Expedition/Sequoia. It did start falling apart after 7 years or so.
“Still, if there’s any state in the nation to be turned off by Musk it’s probably California.”
This says more about the groupthink morality bubble of celebrity-adjacent Californians than it does about Musk. It’s very childish.
I don’t know about that. Deliberately antagonizing (via the HQ move as well as public statements) most of the state’s 40 million or so inhabitants doesn’t seem a particularly mature business decision.
I gotta disagree there. Getting out of expensive Cali, and more-or-less consolidating the businesses in Texas, seems pretty wise.
Financially, probably. But as someone else mentioned about the value of virtue-signaling through a Tesla purchases, shutting down a factory and putting a lot of Americans out of work takes a lot of the virtue out of the signal.
These aren’t abstract foreign workers, they are actual Americans who probably worked stupid hours to establish the brand – put out of work because a billionaire doesn’t like paying taxes.
He can’t understand why it would be better to have someone else to take the blame for the decision, even if it is Musk’s decision. When the decision is to fund a children’s hospital, this makes sense. When the decision is to immediately fire 60% of Twitter, it makes a lot less sense.
There isn’t a company in the world that enjoys paying taxes. While there are a bunch of workers in Cali that were affected negatively, there is a converse number of folks in Texas that are happy.
Factories open and close all the time in many industries. Sometimes, they aren’t even welcome in an area, like the Amazon in Queens debacle from a few years ago.
Yes. And here is the problem with Elon and the Company being linked so directly. Everyone knows that companies and billionaires do not like paying taxes.
What the average billionaire does to avoid taxes involves moving profits to wherever they are taxed the least. Most of this is done by lawyers on paper and is shady but has no direct victims.
By making himself the tax hater and the reason for the move, his tax benefits have many observable human victims.
Yes, 38 million people, the vast majority of whom live hundreds of miles from Hollywood are “celebrity adjacent”. SCOTD.
I consider 23 million people to be ‘Florida Man Adjacent.’
Touche’
I consider them all related.
So does genetics.
I can’t stop laughing at 20+ million emails going out every time a Florida resident sends their DNA to Ancestry.c0m.
The Durango has been on sale since 2010 for the 2011 model year, which makes it even older than the Tesla Model S.
The UAW has reason to be worried, if Stellantis follows their usual practice with an aging model that’s still somehow selling in any numbers, it would mean they are about to discontinue it right now, and then eventually come out with a half-assed and vastly more expensive replacement somewhere around 2030 or 2031 (which will be built in either France or Italy, depending on which government makes the most trouble for them by then)
Does Tesla even care if Dear Leader has stated they aren’t even a car company any longer?
As for the Durango, Stellantis isn’t answering because what they want to do is going to obviously be stupid and seriously unpopular.
You can bet your life’s savings on whatever decision Stellantis makes being the wrong one
Short of raiding my 401(k), I’m cleaned out from 8 months of unemployment. If I can work the kind of magic that will turn all fifteen of my dollars into twenty, I’m down.
(In the scope of betting against Stellantis. I’m not *that* down.)
To me, I’m getting serious vibes that Stellantis is going to let Dodge and Chrysler wither on the vine and shutter them in favor of Peugeot and Citröen replacing them, or as I like to call it: DaimlerChrysler Part Two; Electric Boogaloo.
“want to do is going to obviously be stupid and seriously unpopular”
Discontinue it without a direct replacement and tell Dodge dealers to just deal with it, because the Hornet should be enough
Rename the Hornet ‘Durango Sport.’
Problem solved.
Great choice for the topshot, team.
Agreed. The people that develop and pick the topshots are excellent at the job. It’s part of that makes this place so wonderful.
I think the number of people who actually change a $50,000 purchase decision over the political beliefs of the CEO are quite small.
I think the number of people who claim they would never buy something they actually had no intention of buying anyways, or who switched for another reason but want to chase clout online by trashing a political target on the the other side is many multiples higher.
Fair points. I’m sure the number of keyboard warriors outnumbers the real-life actors. On the other hand, if there is one life purchase that people insert emotions and politics into, it’s a vehicle.
Ah, “real-life actors”? I feel like I should say something here, but I don’t think I’m qualified. Janeane, do you want to weigh in on this one?
I guess I conceive of more separation between the person of the CEO and the actions of the company itself than maybe others do.
For example, I draw quite a distinction between not buying a Tesla over Musk’s comments and not buying a Chinese car over spying concerns or even WWII vets not buying Japanese cars.
I can’t recall a situation quite like this with such an outspoken and politically controversial CEO before.
We live in interesting times.
It’s not as if we haven’t had outspoken, controversial figures in the auto industry in the past. Bob Lutz rubbed a lot of people the wrong way as example. And they all reach such a high place in industry stature, net worth etc that they all seem to fall victim to believing in their own bullshit.
Now of course social media is amplifying the issue to a point that normal people are exposed to the lunacy where in prior years (decades) you really had to seek out the info through trade magazines or whatnot.
And then the world went and forced Musk to buy Twitter. I mean, he walked into that all by himself and for once he was forced to pay the consequence. But it feels like we’re the ones really paying for that decision with every stupid tweet. Even if you’re not on X (I’m certainly not) it’s hard to avoid.
But him owning a platform that already amplifies stupidity? Yeah, that is why Tesla is probably a unique case with the relationship the general, buying public has with an automotive CEO.
Yeah I certainly agree that someone like Lutz might not be to everyone’s taste, but it seems difficult to imagine anyone buying a vehicle or not just based on his presence at a company.
Hell, which products would you even boycott, as he worked for all 3 of the Detroit companies?
Fair, but now try and imagine him going on Twitter and telling everyone that bought a Mustang instead of a Camaro that they’re a pansy sissy man (or whatever he would say in his overly gruff persona).
I don’t know that it would happen. I’m just saying that many, many people turn into assholes when given a microphone and a lot of attention. CEOs are probably more susceptible to that inclination by virtue of the personality type that you have to have in order to pursue that level of leadership.
If you don’t go on X, how do you know what goes on there?
For instance, it’s pretty easy to avoid the drivel by only following accounts that are positive, interesting, funny etc.
If one is unhappy with whatever the algo creates for them, it’s their own fault for curating it that way. There is a majority chunk of X that has nothing to do with radical ideas/theories in any of their forms.
I’ve had a Twitter account for years and had curated my interests closely. I haven’t posted there in at least 12 months. The only time I go there now is for something sports related that one of my sons sends me in a direct message, or if I’m reading something that includes a link to a tweet. Without fail, any time I go there now I’m pushed more ads than content I was actually there to see and the majority of the content being pushed at me is offensive. It doesn’t matter how much of it I block, and I’ve blocked a bunch of it, there’s no shortage of offensive accounts (not all of which are human) that fill the void.
Interesting. Maybe it’s different on mobile, but I only go on it on my laptop. I also, use the Control Panel For Twitter extension. I see no ads other that the top banner sponsored ones. I also generally stick to only the “following” tab unless it’s some breaking news story, like the pager bombs thing that happened this morning. Which is a fucking wild event and pretty damn scary notion that it’s even possible.
I never get pushed content that I haven’t chosen to be involved with, and I think I have maybe 15 posts total, and those are all retweets of things I personally think are exceptionally cool. Maybe I’m the one doing it wrong, lol
What people like Musk say on Twitter is reported in the news cycle, you don’t have to personally be on it to know what’s going on there. I’ve never had a twitter account, but I still come across his deranged tweets at least weekly.
So out of over 200 million daily active accounts, Elon and maybe 10,000 dipshits represent all of it? That’s an interesting way to form an opinion.
This is one of those situations where had Musk receeded into the background after making bombastic comments, everyone would have probably forgotten.
Instead Musk seems hellbent on doubling down and transmitting said bombastic comments over, and over again. Trust me when I say, people are tried of his nonsense. I don’t know many people who have been in the market for EVs recently, but the few that have won’t even look at Tesla because of him. This isn’t a $7 chicken sandwich. People don’t love handing over 50k to enrich someone they actively despise.
The opposite of this is how Subaru manages to sell a gazillion Outbacks in the northeast almost entirely on good vibes. Car buyers are weird.
“I can’t recall a situation quite like this with such an outspoken and politically controversial CEO before”
Have you driven a Ford lately?
https://www.history.com/news/henry-ford-antisemitism-worker-treatment
Henry Ford was literally Adolf Hitler’s source of inspiration!
I’m not interested in a Tesla as I EV shop. Elon’s antics come into it on the margins not through politics but through company governance. His apparent instability plus the degree of sway he holds over the company plus the X/Twitter debacle plus Tesla’s over the air update changes DOES mean that I wonder about the long term stability of the product. Like, would Elon decide to degrade features in any car in a blue state? Things like that aren’t out of the realm of possibility given past patterns. That’s just marginal though, icing on top of many reasons to not get a Tesla the others being a) so common b) weird decision decisions like no turn stalks and overselling Autopilot c) the competition has gotten much, much better and more varied–hyundai/kia are the practical choice, Rivian/Lucid are the prestige choice, etc. Tesla should be the solid, reliable Camry obvious choice but the company ain’t set up that way.
I think you’re probably right. I could see it being a tie-breaker, but I don’t think many car buyers out there run into tie situations when shopping.
> I don’t think many car buyers out there run into tie situations when shopping.
I disagree. The average EV buyer looking for a mid-sized SUV will have to work hard to find important differentiations between the ID4, Mach-E, bZ4X/Soltera, Q8/Q4 E-trons, Lyriq, Model Y, Ioniq5, i-Pace, Niro, EV6, EQB. Are they exact replacements for eachother? Obviously not! Are they close enough that the emotional aspect of Musk can tip the scale away from a Y? Definitely.
Bingo. As will be evidenced several times in these comments today.
I dunno. I know a reasonable number of folks that have decided they will not buy Tesla based on Musk’s behaviour alone. The “glow” of Tesla is definitely getting a very tarnished within my circles. Among the financially successful ones that were early adopters with Tesla, I don’t know any that have purchased another Tesla when it was time to get a new vehicle.
Time for anecdotal observations at my local Tesla store. That store is located at a mall in the top 5 highest annual sales per square foot in North America. The mall is obviously popular and the demographics skew to higher income. 2-3 years ago when walking by the store there were at least 10-20 people in the store shopping. Now it is often empty or with only 1-2 people shopping. This is when the mall is busy. At the same time the Apple store right across from the Tesla store is over flowing with people. Other very high end stores are also significantly busier than the Tesla store. So at that store it certainly looks like interest in their cars has decreased significantly.
I think Tesla definitely has a Musk problem.
You know a number of people who say this to you, but how many were really going to buy a new Tesla until some point when Musk said something? Who went out and bought another $50,000 car instead on a whim?
Car purchases, especially new EV purchases, are rarely purely rational decisions (if they were, they’d probably buy a 2-3 year-old used EV or hybrid and save a bunch of money). People tend to choose emotionally, and then make up justifications later. Now that there are a lot of competent alternative EVs available, it doesn’t take much to “nudge” a person away from a Tesla and into something else.
In most cases like that, things are struck from the list of potential options. Say you want an EV crossover, you’re going to have a list you’re considering and then start knocking stuff off the list for whatever reason. A common EV list is going to be something like Mach-E, Ioniq 5, Model Y. Then a buyer is going to cross off the Model Y. They might have bought one of the others anyway, but that doesn’t mean that the deal breaker didn’t matter.
Well, many did actually buy a new EV or PHEV. And none of them purchased a Tesla. So I guess I’ve go that going for me.
In fairness, they had a new model to show 2-3 years ago.
Well, the do have the refreshed new Model 3 that does actually look quite different (in my opinion) than the previous design on the exterior. I can’t say if the interior has changed much, since I haven’t bothered going into the store.
I agree with the second point wholeheartedly. There can be a lot of virtue-signaling for fake internet points from people who can’t or won’t otherwise purchase a Tesla (or insert other product as you’d like).
However on that first point, you have me wondering: how many potential buyers are being put off not just by Musk’s remarks, but by the specific outcry from those encompassed by point two? A lot of these buyers are buying these cars specifically to virtue-signal through action, and if that virtue is tarnished, what good does it do? Especially for those in that small portion of the country who can make that $50k purchase more often than most.
I think it’s a small overall thing, but one to be considered. If the people who made a brand what it is start to drop them, how long does that brand have the same cachet?
That is a good point I hadn’t considered, and it does end up getting complicated trying to suss out the various motivations people have for doing what they do.
I definitely think that from a purely self-interested POV, Musk is clearly doing the wrong thing by morphing into a social conservative (no one seems to mind CEOs acting in their own interest as fiscal conservatives). Whatever his motivations (and I’ve heard many theories), he’s clearly committed to it now, even at potential risks to his own companies.
I’m not so sure. A large part of the luxury car market is people buying the image of the brand and all that comes with it. For most people a Honda will do the same things as a BMW so why spend more? They want people to see them in a certain way because of the car they bought is a large part of that. If you no longer agree with the image that the car puts off due to the CEO or the styling or any number of reasons I’d argue it will definitely effect sales.
I don’t know. I live in an uppity left-leaning area with people who own expensive boring cars, like MB SUVs, and are thinking of going EV. They ask what’s good besides Tesla because of muskrat. Buying cars at this strata are generally either a passion purchase or status. Not one of them are car enthusiasts nor can I see much passion behind a CUV purchase. Status relates very much to the company image. At first, Tesla seemed like the new, forward thinking company, but now it just looks like a lackluster company run by a bored, intellectually unimpressive man-child who inserts himself everywhere. I’m not going to say it’s everyone everywhere, but it’s not just people in CA or some car enthusiasts getting turned off by the guy.
We bought an EV last fall and cross shopped five models including the Model Y, which we test drove twice. Musk’s behavior wasn’t the only reason we passed on the Y, but I will tell you it was probably the largest contributing factor.
Maybe we are in the minority, and I recognize that this decision was driven in part by emotion. But I imagine that most people want to feel good about their purchases, and I would not have felt good about buying a Tesla in that moment.
I often think that the CEO of Kia could also be a raging bigoted prick, but the difference is that I don’t know if he is or isn’t, because he isn’t telling me about it every day.
I mean, this is the issue, right? I make plenty of money, my wife makes plenty of money. In a few years now, we’ll be buying new cars (current garage is an Audi A6 Allroad and a Volvo XC90), and they’ll more than likely be EVs. When we buy, it won’t be a Tesla. Musk is a racist asshat and I’m not going to drive a car associated with him.
Not only that, really, based on recent comparisons, Tesla isn’t keeping up with the offerings that other companies are putting out, notably the Korean manufacturers. But the main reason is Musk is a giant “replacement theory” racist fuck.
It’s an interesting question. Musk is responsible for most of the reasons I wouldn’t buy a Tesla, some of which are stupid design decisions that he pushed and some are the fact that I don’t want to financially support a company run by such an obvious scumbag.
One counterpoint would be that I have resisted getting Starlink because of Musk’s involvement. I’d probably like having it because I work remotely and would like to work from even more remote locations than I can with a cell hotspot, but the stench of Musk on the product just turns me off to it.
So I’m not realistically a potential Tesla customer, but I absolutely am a potential Starlink customer and while I can’t say I’ll never sign up for it, I can say I haven’t even seriously looked into it for purely ideological reasons.
I have a vacation property in a very rural area. I can do most of my work remotely, and me wife has at least one day a week that is entirely remote. We could spend more time there than we do, but cel service is spotty, and there’s only one internet provider. That provider notifies me at least once a week of an outage in my area. More than one person I know out there has suggested Starlink as a more reliable option, but I can’t bring myself to do it.
Exact same situation. My family has a cabin with garbage cell service and as much as I’d love to stay there during the work week I just won’t.
Kind of like the folks who said “If Trump wins, I’m moving to Canada”.
Then famously didn’t move to Canada.
What happens in Silicon Valley should stay in Silicon Valley. Please
If anything it’s where the wall needs to be built. I’ll happily vote for whoever wants to completely enclose Silicon Valley and cut it off from our society entirely. Or they can all go try to colonize Mars with God Emperor Musk. Really either is fine with me.
I’m nearly finished reading Kara Swisher’s take-no-prisoners volume on that CA techbro ghetto, Burn Book, and based on what I’ve learned of the appalling individuals that wield power there, I can only hope it’s the latter.
This is why I’m actively rooting for crypto to fail. It’s an attempt by some of the shittiest tech bros in existence to take control of the financial system, and that should terrify everyone.
Fortunately, said tech bros also have absolutely no idea how to build a financial system so crypto is wildly unsuited to everything except speculation and illegal financial transactions. I hope it stays that way.
But the Orange guy has just made his own crypto bank.
And it’s gonna change the world’s banking system bigly. Bigly I say.
Can’t make this shit up…
Crypto fails every few hours.
For Tesla adoption it’s probably the canary. That’s the area that made Tesla. If folks who are likely repeat Tesla owners skip to other brands, it’s a big signal to Tesla that something needs to change.
Also, it is very clear that the strategy is NOT going to win Tesla sales in other parts of the country, they will not replace disaffected Californian buyers with new buyers elsewhere. Some guy in West Virginia who agrees with Musk’s recent political statements isn’t going to replace his Ram 1500 with a Cybertruck, he’s just going to shrug and go “well, I agree with Musk on that point, but I’m still not buying one of his electric cars”, and that will be it.
Alienating the people who have enthusiastically purchased your products in order to appeal to people who will never in a million years purchase your products no matter what is not a good business strategy. And this can go both directions across the political spectrum, ask AB InBev
I Googled 100 gec.
That CANNOT be good for anyone.
Elon Musk is such an asshole that he makes even Jeff Bezos look like a good person LOL
indeed, and therein lies the problem
Yeah. He says F you to all the advertisers that left Twitter (I refuse to call it X, but that’s a whole ‘nother story) and can’t seem to fathom why that pushed even more advertisers away. Now he’s basically doing the same thing to a big chunk of the Tesla market, and again doesn’t seem to realize that that’s a huge turn off for even more potential clients. The effect on the bottom lines of both companies has been staggering.
Someone much smarter than me once observed nature doesn’t deal in punishment and reward, only consequences.
I rather suspect historians would extend the idea to include their subject matter as well, and I think we’d all be a lot better off if we all kept that concept in mind – particularly the billionaire set. Musk should tattoo that quote to his forearm, and look at it every time he’s about to hit send.
Better that he not get the tattoo. I don’t want an asshole like that to have even more power and influence. He already has more
free speechmoney than he knows what to do with. It was only a matter of time before he started buying politicians to spread his toxic views.He told them to Fuck Off and then sued them for fucking off.
Yeah. An interesting rope to push on.
Vintage 1% brain rot.
FUCK YOU! I DON’T NEED YOU! I AM A RUGGED INDIVIDUALIST
Sounds good, bye.
WAHHHHHHHH WHY ARE THEY BEING MEAN TO ME WAHHHHHHHH I’M SO OPPRESSED WAHHHHHHHH I’M THE REAL VICTIM HERE AND THEY NEED TO PAY ME MILLIONS FOR MAKING ME FEEL BAD WAHHHHHHH GOVERNMENT PLEASE STEP IN AND HELP ME IMMEDIATELY!!!!
It’s funny that a guy who moved his factory to avoid taxes and minimum wage laws receives most of his income from government checks.