I’ve never taken my car to a dealership, and the only time I even go to a mechanic is to get a wheel alignment or to have tires installed (since these require precision machines — yes, the tape-measure method for tire alignment works, too, but it ain’t precise). I do everything else myself. As a result, when people ask me for shop recommendations, I cannot help them, and when they ask me if something is a “fair price,” I once again have little to offer. In my world, vehicle service prices come from the junkyard, car-parts store, or Rockauto.com, and not from a service manager. So when my friend told me she was at the Lexus dealership, and I asked her to show me the service-quote, what I saw made me immediately respond: “Forget that! I’ll do it! Just let me fix your car!” It took a little convincing, but I did some wrenching yesterday on a 2017 Lexus RX350, and it was actually a pleasant experience.
I know, I know. A Lexus RX350; it’s not an enthusiast’s car, sure, but after driving it I’ve come to appreciate it solely because of its “performance of intended function.” The car is nice inside, it rides well, it’s reliable, and it’s actually quicker than you think. My friend loves her car, and I bet most other RX350 owners do, too, so I have to appreciate Lexus’s ability to nail the “comfortable, sensible, no-bullshit luxury SUV” formula. Anyway, this isn’t about the car, really, it’s about the situation. Let’s talk about the service quote:
That’s $563.58 for the front brakes and $557.20 for the rears. Together that’s $1,120.78 plus tax, so about $1,200 all-in. For a brake job!
I’m not the only one who’s a bit sour about this whole thing. Multiple Autopian writers have been feeling the pain of brake jobs recently. Here are some receipts from Matt Hardigree, who opted for the warranty so he won’t have to pay for this all again:
That’s $1,100 after tax with a brake flush, so about $450 an axle (plux tax) including the warranties you see above. That’s cheaper than my friend’s $560-ish quote, which really seems to be about the standard. Here’s a quote from the Bishop, who also recently got taken to the cleaners by bad brakes:
And here’s Mercedes’ wife Sheryl, who had both axles done on her rusty-but-trusty BMW 5 Series wagon:
Also $567 per axle!
Anyway, I couldn’t let my friend pay more than a Postal Jeep to replace four pads and two discs. Just out of principle. So I bought some of Advance Auto Parts’ best pads and discs for a total of about $380. Add in brake caliper grease and blue thread sealant (which I like to use on the brake bracket bolts), and we’re basically in $400 in parts.
Then I got to wrenching. The front discs, which are all I’ve done so far, were a joy to do. I have to hand it to Toyota for including a threaded hole in the brake disc “hat.” This allows you to thread in a bolt and us it to press the discs off. This is a big deal for me, as I recently had to WHALE on some Jeep discs to get them off, ruining them in the process.
Look at this cleverness:
The pads include a pair of springs, which I assume are there to keep them pressed up against the calipers. I’d never seen these before:
The calipers were dual-piston units; since I only have a C-Clamp and no special caliper tool, to press the pistons back in I just shoved an old pad against both pistons and cranked down on the clamp. It was all so easy, especially since this vehicle has been in California its whole life. The bolts threaded out like butter! I haven’t used my MAPP gas torch in months!
Honestly, the job was a joy! It took me probably three hours to do the front right, since I took my time and researched all the torque specs, and was very careful. The front left took me only one hour, roughly.
The rears include an electric park brake, so that requires a little bit of wizardry for the electric motor to all the piston to retract. I’ll finish that off soon:
My friend wasn’t thrilled that I came in with so much grime on my hands on behind my fingernails. I have to admit: This is the first time this has ever been a problem. For basically a decade, grimy hands have been nothing but respectable among my peers. A sign that I’d been wrenching hard. But now I have to figure out how to clean them? Please advise.
Anyway, I saved her $400 so far for something I enjoy doing anyway, and another $400 in savings will be had tomorrow. Absolutely worthwhile for what I anticipate will be about a total of six or seven hours of work. Of course, if this were michigan, that might be 12-13 hours of work, mostly breaking bolts, drilling them out, re-threading them — and don’t forget the requisite 30 minutes for cursing. Those are important.
“we’re basically in $400 in parts.”
The difference of course being labour costs.
“for what I anticipate will be about a total of six or seven hours of work”
So your time is worth nothing?
You gave a full day of work (spread over 2 days) for free. Of course it’s going to be cheaper than the dealership. DIY is always cheaper, because nobody’s being paid.
100% agreed in principle, but there are some people for whom doing this kind of work is an act of affection, so “time-worth” is relative.
I read all of the comments to make sure I wasn’t doing a repeat on someone else’s post. Having said that, here is my tip for clean fingernails. Prior to beginning work, scrape your fingernails over the surface of a bar of soap so that you get a nice build up of soap under your nails. Yes, it feels weird, get used to it. When it’s time to clean up use a fingernail brush to get the soap out from under your nails. Easy peasy!
Wow! Very interesting…
I can confirm that this absolutely works!
100% works
Makes sense, material can’t exist where other material exists. And it cleans from inside out.
I cannot speak for your peers but 30 years in as a professional mechanic I personally agree with your friend concerning grimy hands.
Just because you work on stuff it does not mean you have to be gross.
I just retired from a New Car Dealer. What I hated, was being ground on to sell “snake oil”! There were 3 chemicals to pour in your gas tank. All over priced and of dubious benefit. All of which could be purchased for a 1/3 of the price at the parts store. Oh, we need to clean your crankcase! Gee I’m using detergent oil and changing it every 5000 miles, why would I need that? Cleaning the throttle body and the mass air flow sensor was almost $300! I could I see a picture or come out to the shop and have you show me why you think my car needs that? Oh, it can wait til next time? OMG. $100 to clean my battery terminals? I’ll watch a YouTube video and do it myself! Shop labor rate (SF Bay Area) was $240/ hr.
With the advent of hubless rotors, no bearings to pack with grease, no grease seals to replace, the average DIY can do their own brakes! If you do end up replacing brake rotors get some good ones. Centric Premium always worked good for me. And never hurts to check Dealer Parts price..sometimes not that much more and they are quality. If possible, try and avoid Made in China. BUT have seen OE parts that are from China!, And changing your brake fluid every couple years IS a good idea! It breaks down and gets contaminated just like any other fluid in your car. Pretty easy to do if you have a person to pump the pedal. Slow and easy on that pedal only go down about half way or so. Best to put a piece of hose on the bleeder, put in a glass half full of brake fluid, make sure the master doesn’t get low..Hope this helps. Rock on Fellow Autopians! ????
I have to say complaining about dirty hands when saving her $800 is what I call a Karen. UNLESS you stained ruined anything. That is why men hang out in the garage.
Why?
It is pretty damn easy to clean your hands…
And not to be crass but depending on the exact nature of the type of ‘friend’ a woman is it is a LEGIT health concern.
Agree to disagree someone saves me $800 I say thank you very much. I would offer them the opportunity to wash up. If they ruin a towel so what. It seems entitled for a person not to appreciate a charitable act. Given DTs kindly nature I guess it was more terse than he mentioned.
I dunno man, it’s not that hard to get cleaned up before exiting the garage. I work on equipment at construction sites and manage to get back in the truck with clean hands…
I agree but your advice is like a woman who asks her husband to load the dishwasher and then complains he loaded it wrong. There are many ways to do a job most are good enough. There is only one way to react to someone doing you a favor.THANK YOU.
Not if they break your plates loading the dishwasher…
But real talk, why so many of y’all just dedicated to having filthy mits?
DT no break dishes where are you coming from where it is okay to not appreciate a favor? You have lousy parents or they are ashamed of you. Answer the question why is it appropriate to insult a friend for doing a favor?
ahhh maybe you don’t understand how a friend can “thank you”. you want to be clean. the subtext I guess is being missed by many and I’mmaa not gonna say it.
My friend is a wonderful woman who appreciates me A LOT.
Here we go again
He’s the reason I wish there was a block function here.
Yes, yes and YES!!
Bad take Dave has entered the conversation to the detriment of everyone.
“Wash your hands” is an entirely reasonable request. Your hands touch stuff all the time, grease is hard to clean and gets everywhere. There’s also pure sanitary reasons – and I’m assuming David’s friend wants him to be healthy because she cares about him, so would be concerned about what fluids and dirt would affect said health.
In short, wash your damn hands.
If the itemized labor/parts quote for the BMW is representative of the lump sum Lexus quote, that $216 is maybe 2 hours of labor per axle which doesn’t sound too far out of line as an average – not every car crossing their lift is such a low-mile cream puff.
Coupla things
On most Toyota’s you would be crazy to have a shop do brakes and rotors. I did my GX470 front pads and rear pads and rotors in under an hour. It’s VERY simple. Unless they are captive front rotors, this job is stupid simple.
Most of the cost is in the parts – Toyota rotors are SPENDY. In my experience though, they are worth it. It might be only the J series trucks that are like this but the rotors from Toyota are WAY thicker and last way longer than anything I’ve bought aftermarket, they also vibrate less from my experience. Carquest rotors? Maybe they will be as good, probably not even close. Probably won’t matter on something like an RX which weighs substantially less than my GX
Depending on where you are, the dealer isn’t that bad of a deal. They charge the exact same rate as the Toyota dealer next door and the service is next level (at least in terms of the white glove treatment, the actual wrenching is – like all places – dependent on which mechanic gets your car and their mood). I do most of my own work on the GX, but stuff like Timing belt and trans fluid? Meh, they take care of it at a reasonable rate and I know I can come back to have them honor their work if they have trouble. I got a free front axle for the GX because they missed it on inspection and it started clicking not long after. Paid for itself for me.
Honestly if you are looking for the best deal its [almost] always best to DIY, but the Lexus dealer experience in my experience has not been bad at all.
My friend actually likes her Lexus dealership!
My kids LOVE when we go to the dealership, they load up on treats and they walk about with arms full.
David, those funny little spring thingies on Toyota brake pads are to pull them separate from the rotor when you let off the pedal. Even my kid’s ’92 Camry has them.
Wow, a brake job on a car without rust. Never seen that before.
Anti-vibration as far as I know. They keep tension on the pins so they don’t rattle.
Correct! these are known as “Anti-Rattle Clips”
I would be interested if you know any experts in this field to ask a question about the current state of brake rotors;
It states here that your friend’s front rotors were warped. My wife’s Volvo XC40 had warped front rotors before 20K miles and luckily replaced under warranty. And I know that European manufacturers love to install thin rotors for (claimed) weight savings.
Given how much weight vehicles have gained in the past several years, are these rotors really up to the task? Should there be new safety specs to make sure the brakes can actually stop a 5-6K lb vehicle? The XC40 is the smallest SUV Volvo makes and comes in at about 4800 lbs. It’s getting out of hand with how big and heavy they’re all getting.
I was wondering if anyone else was surprised at the state of those brakes given the miles, and I also know of similar anecdotal stories. Is this becoming more common, or am I just paying more attention?
Might be tangentially related, but it seems that the OEMs have leaned hard into replacing the rotors instead of turning them. Possible that was done so they could spec thinner rotors instead of making sure they had enough beef to take a turning or two?
Welcome to being the warranty. And congrats on the female friend.
Did your friend get to eat donuts / fresh fruit, drink the coffee and fill her bag with bottled water, then sit in one of those posh massage chairs for two hours, all while watching the big screen tv’s on different channels with competing volume?
My wife works at a Lexus store, you should hear the stories about some of customers.
The receptionist has had her heater stolen three times by customers.
One guy used to come in every day for a donut and coffee, then turn around and walk back out…
Sure dealerships make money on brake jobs, they also have to pay for all the free stuff that goes by 10am everyday.
Yes, for the record, my friend really likes her Lexus dealership!
Yeah, they have all kinds of things on sale around the service area, including very expensive purses / bags etc.
The local Lexus dealer stresses how they service “all” cars. I have a Toyota, I’m tempted to see what their price is for service just go spend the waiting time in a Lexus dealer instead of the shit hole Toyota dealership.
You’d get better service, and overall ‘experience’ or should, however you’ll be paying for it too.
Just did the brakes (calipers and all) on the old ’08 x-type…that’s lived its life in Canada. After a few of these rusty jobs you won’t mind paying $1,200 to not deal with everything you touch being rusted/seized. The part where you said “it was all so easy…the bolts threaded out like butter”….what’s that like? Does not translate to Canadian.
“My friend wasn’t thrilled that I came in with so much grime on my hands on behind my fingernails. I have to admit: This is the first time this has ever been a problem. For basically a decade, grimy hands have been nothing but respectable among my peers. A sign that I’d been wrenching hard. But now I have to figure out how to clean them? Please advise.”
I’m surprised you are unaware of all those different brands of orange citrus based cleaners. I would have guessed you have tubs of that hanging around and using it for everything, even hair washing and tooth brushing.
A quick hack, if you don’t have that stuff is to moisten your hands and rub in baking soda, then work that off with some lemon juice. I hear the LA hoi pol loi are always finding new uses for lemon juice.
I mean, this is the guy who made spaghetti in the shower. Are you REALLY surprised?
I don’t think he made spaghetti in the shower. He made it with spaghetti in the shower. Oh crap, that’s worse. Can’t unsee…
I find a vigorous shampooing gets most of the under fingernail nasty cleaned out. Just scratch instead of rub.
> I’m surprised you are unaware of all those different brands of orange citrus based cleaners.
This is a man who bathes in the Baltic sea and gets trench foot just being himself.
A couple of points:
I think you’re underestimating what the market will bear. These prices are high because people will pay them. The work will typically include some kind of warranty. The car owner doesn’t have to get their hands dirty, they don’t have the hassle of buying parts and dealing with parts that don’t fit, they don’t have to have the right tools, they don’t need to line up thead locker or anti-sieze or caliper grease. Ultimtely these shops employ mechanics which is not a bad thing.
However to support your point, you could have also mentioned that repair shops are typically making a good margin on parts in addition to the labor. So while a 2008 F-150 front rotor might cost me $150 at the auto parts store, a repair shop may charge me $225 for it.
So yes, people have been ripped off by mechanics and will continue to be ripped off, not everyone gets ripped off. However I believe that most people feel they’re getting a fair deal on repairs like these. Sure it could be done cheaper, but the car owner is releived of all of the problems with doing it themself.
Consider the value of a person’s time, either the car owner’s time or the mechanic’s time.
I stopped patronizing the Nissan dealer where I bought the truck when I found out they marked up the parts they used to repair the thing. By marked up, I mean substantially more for just the parts than they would have sold the parts to me for if I had decided to do it myself. I thought the mark up was out of line for the amount of effort involved in walking from the shop to the parts counter in the next room.
Parts markup on repairs piss me off. I always buy from my parts guy at the counter who gives me a discount then leave them on the seat. So long as they are still in Toyota packaging, they don’t mind. In the event that I don’t you can usually talk them back down to non-marked up cost by simply knowing what the parts cost. If you are waiting for your car, go talk to the parts counter…can’t hurt.
Dude, get yourself a canister of GOJO with the pumice in it. You don’t even need to use water with it, just scoop & scrub. Though I usually rinse my hands afterwards anyway to get any leftover pumice grit off…
Truth be told though, only we mere amateurs get our hands dirty. The pros use nitrile gloves. One day perhaps I, too, will get wise, but meanwhile – GOJO.
Also – and this is going to sound odd to some folks, but I’m talking to the shower spaghetti guy, so we can keep it between us, yeah? – the best way I’ve ever found to actually get the grease out from under my fingernails is to take a shower and shampoo my hair really, really well. Grease gone, hair clean, it’s a win-win. One might worry about grease-hair transfer, but that doesn’t seem to happen – the soap carries it all down the drain.
I need more hair.
I feel you DT, so do I. You still have more left than I do, but even I still have enough hair for the shampoo trick to work.
This does work but a cheap fingernail brush is better. The washing hair method doesn’t really get it out from under the fingernails
You’re absolutely correct: my hands are never more squeaky-clean than after I’ve washed my hair, regardless of their initial condition.
Nitrile gloves ????. Not just for cleanliness but for long-term health reasons. Source: PhD chemist, have worked with nasty shit for over 30 years, industrial chemist for over 20 years.
But when the gloves aren’t there or tear, GOJO is the way to go!
I picked up a trick that I thought was stupid until I tried it. Vegetable oil. Get some paper/shop towels and some vegi oil. put the vegi oil on your hands and rub with dry paper towel. You are basically swapping grease for oil but the vegi oil comes off way easier and is way easier on your hands. you can get the bulk of the heavy stuff off with the vegi oil, then just rub them until dry with paper towel and then wash with soap and water. Way less abrasive than pumice.
This is a good tip! My version of the same trick is to use WD-40 to get the worst of the grease off, then wash off the WD-40, but your way is very likely the more healthy alternative.
You beat me by a month.
Veggie or other cooking oils are THE BEST! They also dosen’t trigger contact dermatitis like most of these other ideas. For extra cleaning power add a bit of sugar as an abrasive. It dissolves completely in the wash water.
Spray anti-sieze is your friend in PA. Spray the hub and wheel studs before installing the rotor, spray the back face of the wheel as well so it does not freeze to the top hat. Don’t over torque the lug nuts, lubricated torque level is lower than dry. Always tighten lugs with a torque wrench, it helps prevent warping as well.
Yep, brakes are a scam at a shop. I just pad slapped my RAV4. About $80 for all four corners and a few hours.
Dawn (must be Dawn, no imitators accepted) blue dish soap is my go-to for cleaning my hands. Actually I use nitrile rubber gloves to keep my hands from getting dirty in the first place. Yes my hands get sweaty but it’s a small price for not scrubbing dirt for twenty minutes afterward.
Dawn is the only one that works. I’ve been amazed by that for years, but it seems to be true!
Dawn is all I use while camping. Cleans dishes, cleans pots, cleans me.
And according to the label it cleans baby ducks.
And oiled penguins (and other birds after oil spills). IIRC Dawn provides the stuff for free for rescue operations.
Thanks for the reminder to order pads and rotors for the wife’s car. The dealership quote if $308/axle seems almost reasonable compared to these examples, but the “almost” is because that included turning the rotors, not replacing.
I’m not opposed to turning rotors, but now that places are charging $20 a pop while new ones are $30 (for this car) what’s the point? Still a solid practice for $100 rotors.
I will also add a vote for the gallon pump jug of orange cleaner. Remember not to wet your hands first. That reduces effectiveness.
So what is gonna be your DYI price? I had my rotors turned, $650 all in. I’m satisfied.
With tax and shipping, $280 for everything. Did the rear Tuesday and discovered their “almost metal on metal” was overstated, front gets to wait since it has 1/3 of pad life left.
Ah, yes, I discovered this a week after buying a GX460. I’d bought it in a neighbouring state, so I needed a Massachusetts inspection. I took it to my nearest Lexus dealer, who failed it for water in one of the reversing lights. The quotation from the dealer? Almost $900 for the replacement of the module. Once I’d finished laughing, I declared I’d “think about it”.
Anyhow, I think I was $165 for the module from Rock Auto, a few tools to make the job a little easier and 35 minutes lying on the floor of my apartment garage.
The dealer passed it on the reinspection.
Funnily enough, I didn’t bother taking it back there for its oil change and went to the independent garage along the street that came recommended.
Odd, that. I wonder if the dealers ever wonder why they get such a bad rep? /s
In fairness, some dealers are okay. I used the one where I bought my car and I haven’t had any issues at all with them.
Then I moved to a new city and the dealers in the group for the brand I owned are, uh, somewhat infamous. Like, a friend would drive two hours out of his way to get his Smart serviced so he didn’t have to deal with them – big group of brands, I don’t own a Smart.
So now I need to find a new place to do work with in this city.
I know good dealers that it’s a pleaure to do business with, but they’re in the UK so kind-of inconvenient.
My first proper brush with a US dealer for servicing (I’m over here for a little while for work). I’d previously bought from a US dealer and that experience was so grim I paid the Carmax premium to not have to suffer that way again.
(Yes, I could have “gone Karen” on Carmax about the light, but after 9 months here I really missed wrenching and was glad of the mini-project.)
I got taken to the cleaners in college…$1200 for upper and lower ball joints, front pads, and front rotors for my ’97 Econoline conversion van. I think it was roughly half and half parts/labor.
Of course, on the other hand, I still don’t have a basic grasp of what “ball joints” are or do, but at least I could tell it was braking much better after the job was done.
Those E-series do eat brakes, though. Does the back having drums hurt a lot?
Yes, brakes are important. They’re also generally very easy. The service is overpriced at many shops despite being gravy work. I haven’t had a shop touch my brakes in nearly two decades. Good on you, David.
All luxury car makes are doing this. This whole premise that these foreign lux jobs are complicated and justify an extreme price difference seems to stem from Don down at your local mom and pop perfectly content doing brake jobs on F150 and having no interest in learning slight variations of similar work.
I say this as someone who makes a living working on mainly Mercedes/ Infiniti. It’s the same premise has every other shitbox. If you can fix an Olds, you can fix an S-Class. It’s wild that people pay me 180 plus dollars an hour to turn a wrench. And I’m 120 dollars an hour cheaper than dealer, and 80 cheaper then my nearest competition.
Also Mercedes Benz has an A+B services that’s basically an oil change and giving a good once over while the oil drains. It’s 500+ dollars on most cars. Usually 350+ on lower end cars. It’s a totally scam, but the dealer will torpedo your trade in value if it isn’t done on the dot.
I’m with you on this 100% David. I always did my brakes on my Volvo and on my Tundra before I passed it down to my son. You’re totally right about the awesome threaded bolt hole on the Toyota discs. I always bought top-shelf parts and “rented” (for free) any specialty equipment needed from Napa Auto, and still saved significant $$$.
For fingernail, hand and arm cleaning, I recommend the following:
Step 1: fingernail brush and petroleum-based waterless soap (what we used to call “can-o-cum” when I was in the Navy). Don’t skip the brush – it’s absolutely required.
Step 2: fingernail brush with hot water and Lava soap and/or Dawn dishwashing liquid
Step 3: repeat step 1 and 2 if necessary
Step 4: if there’s still grime remaining, soak your fingers in gasoline (a la Madge in the old Palmolive commercials) and repeat steps 1 – 3.
That is very nice of you to offer. I presume that your friend has not gone back and actually read your old wrenching articles?
I’ve told her: “Do not google my name. You will leave me immediately.”
She claims she’s largely taken my advice. The fact that she can still look me in the eyes proves she’s telling the truth.
COTD, Thanks David, that made my day
We are very happy that you have escaped The Rust Abyss, found kittens and a nice lady friend, and even leveraged your new relationship to do some wrenching.
so…a couple of months prior to your big move to LA, you were posting articles about ‘having to sell some of your fleet, because you’d realize the social price you were paying spend your time wrenching on rusty MOPARs, and that there were ‘developments’ going on in the deep background that were providing some sort of motivation for you to make this type of change.
Certainly one could cite the new website, but inquiring minds want to know: were there other developments behind the radical lifestyle changes?
Now that’s funny! Possibly accurate and also funny!
> You will leave me
So it’s officially not a friend.
If you have access to a lathe and can turn the rotors yourself you can further cut the cost in half.
Dealers used to do that too, but gave up on that recently.
Nah, not worth it. You cut a warped rotor and then with even less mass it just warps worse the next time it gets hot. Then you’ve killed a set of pads too. It’s just more efficient to replace the rotor.
If its warped that bad, sure. Our issues here are rust creep. Lathe takes it down to clean metal in no time. It’s even worse now that cars all have dust shields on the inside, just traps the moisture.
If you have warp issues you should try different rotors. I have better luck with ones made in Mexico. Avoid the stuff from Asia.
Good advice. I’ve just about had it with China rotors. I’ll start looking for Mexico ones. Thanks!
Up here in the native range of the tin worm, even coated rotors get eaten from the inside out. I’ve replaced far more from clogged vanes than being worn down or warped.
You can clean the vanes if you want to save them.
Agree it’s not worth it, especially considering that rotors are dirt cheap. Usually I warp mine in the mountains, when you can’t go slower because the 18 wheelers will run you over.
Turning rotors while not on the hub could lead to lateral runout. It also reduces the mass of the rotor, which reduces the amount of heat the rotor can dissipate. At $20/rotor, and the time spent waiting for the machine shop to turn them, it’s much more effective to just out new ones on (this assumes you have simple, separate hat rotors, not integrated hub rotors like a B body Chevy). Matching doesn’t always remove the “hard spots” that abused rotors can have.
I have always done the brakes on my Volvo myself. The markup on brake jobs is egregious. I can get the good pads and rotors for far less, and I can do all four wheels in about 2 hours, which includes lifting each end of the car, since I don’t have a lift. I did the math last time I did brakes, and I was saving myself (in 2020) $600 over when my indie Volvo shop charges, and $1100 over what the dealer would have charged.