Can I confide something to you? I can trust you, right? Of course I can, who am I kidding, it’s you. Okay, so here’s the thing: I think battery-electric RVs and motorhomes and campers are a pretty stupid idea. There, I said it. At the moment, there really aren’t any BEV campers on the market, but there are some in development, like Winnebago’s eRV2. The problem with all-electric RVs and motorhomes is that the inherently limited range of an electric RV is counter to the very core mission of an RV: to go places, any places, places that may be far away from where you live, places away from charging stations, that kind of thing.
But with EV campers and RVs having ranges of barely over 100 miles – if you’re lucky – and long charging times, it becomes clear that battery EV campers and RVs just aren’t the answer. But there are definite advantages to electrification, which means that there is one possible solution: hybrids.
Yes, hybrids! The powerful alliance of combustion engines and electric motors, each one’s strengths helping to compensate for the other’s weaknesses, is a potentially game-changing setup for big, heavy RVs and motorhomes. So far, there are no hybrid motorhomes on the market, but that’s about to change, because THOR Industries and Harbinger have teamed up and built what they claim is the world’s first hybrid Class A Motorhome, the THOR Test Vehicle. I can’t prove this, but I heard the person who came up with that name got a huge bonus and a trip to the Maldives!
The THOR Test Vehicle is built on Harbinger’s medium-duty electric truck chassis, adapted from it’s all-electric incarnation to include a fuel tank and a combustion motor in a series-hybrid configuration (meaning the combustion engine is just used to charge the batteries, and never directly drives the wheels, sort of like a BMW i3 with a range extender) in the rearmost battery bays, and the rest of the battery bays are filled with batteries totaling 140 kWh. The combined range of the batteries and the combustion motor is claimed to be about 500 miles, which is much better than battery power alone would be, and has the significant advantage of being able to be refueled quickly at any gas station, which, as I’m sure you know, are pretty much everywhere.
The electrical system has an 800 volt architecture that allows for rapid charging at DC charging stations, and since I mentioned that it’s worth making clear that this is a plug-in hybrid, so given the right circumstances of charging locations and distance, the THOR Test Vehicle (let’s just call it the TTV because typing THOR in all caps is a pain, even though TTV is also all caps, just go with it, please) can run on just battery power and not have to kick on the ICE at all.
Of course, having that ICE is the game changer here; yes, it’s the electric motors that offer the options of running in near silence and having more torque than a conventional combustion motor, but the combustion motor is what, ironically, makes electrification viable for RVs. You can’t get out and really explore and wander and enjoy an RV like it’s meant to be if you’re stopping every 80 miles or so for an hour or more to charge. Battery technology and the charging infrastructure are just not there yet.
While there was a lot of needless purity in the electrification community, where hybrids were shunned because they weren’t entirely electric, that mentality is changing as reality smacks us all around with its big paws and everyone realized that just battery electric power maybe isn’t a solution for everything. Electrification adds a lot to a motorhome – this motorhome can power a house in an emergency or put energy back into the grid if needed. There’s solar panels on the roof that I don’t imagine make all that much difference when it comes to range unless you’re camping in a treeless expanse of desert in the middle of summer, but it likely will help keep equipment humming along while camping.
Tomorrow morning I fly out to South Bend, Indiana, the former home of Studebaker, to see this thing in person and get to drive it, though there’s a good chance “drive” will just mean I get to take it around the little course you see in this video, or something like it:
Will they even let me try out the bathroom? That’s how I really like to test an RV, by taking my bowels for a nice, informative spin.
A hybrid motorhome is really a great idea, and in hindsight it’s kind of nuts it took this long to develop one. The Harbinger platform has always struck me as a robust and clever bit of engineering, so it seems like a good place to start for something like this.
Hopefully I’ll know a lot more when I see this thing in person tomorrow, so stay tuned!
Will you give us a preview of your review in the Morning Dump?
This is a lot bigger battery than I tend to think makes sense for an RV (even half that size would be more appropriate imo), but mass transit has been relying on battery electric hybrids for decades (technically over a century), and it makes tons of sense. You can add power with motors with much less downside than trying to make an ice engine run at a wider operating range (as opposed to turbine hybrids).
“I think battery-electric RVs and motorhomes and campers are a pretty stupid idea”
Thank you……One thousand Times…..THANK YOU!
The sooner the world realizes that everything doesn’t have to be a BEV to help the environment or whatever the better.
A reasonable mixture of all propulsion types is what the world needs.
BEVs for short around town trips/delivery vehicles/buses makes perfect sense.
Hybrids for a large number of use cases makes much more sense than a huge, resource hungry battery.
Plug-In Hybrids even better, battery 95% of the time and gas when needed for a long trip or towing heavy.
Hybrid RVs make sense. Power everything from battery/solar/engine as needed. The stove, the AC, the refrigerator all electric. Possibly even heat via energy efficient heat pump/mini-split units.
If this could be setup to allow connection to a house for those able to store the RV at their abode……whole house generator during power outages.
Manufacturers and especially governments with their mandates need to realize a combined energy approach is the best approach.
I’d even say that a bigger battery for a plug in hybrid system would be awesome for an RV.
you going to a camp site with hookups? use all that battery to get there, and charge up the battery while you’re plugged in.
you going to a remote boondock with no access to anything? select an option to prioritize charging the battery. that plus the rooftop solar could keep everything running off battery for up to 2 weeks.
need some additional power? just turn on the engine to charge up the battery.
motorhomes just seem like a natural solution here for a PHEV.
but yeah, just overall, governments mandating things, that’s a bit much. go ahead, subsidize things, that’s whatever they already do that for the oil companies to ensure the military can stay fueled, but mandate what can be sold? nah.
It’s about time! Now when a hybrid RV gets down to a Sprinter-scale, that is when we will get really really interested. Come on, get us some . . . retirement and RV travel is just a few years away.
I worry about the battery when stored as RVs tend to sit unused for a long period. I imagine it should be parked on a tender of some sort. Sorta related I wonder how a local campground that has introduced a $60 per day additional fee for EVs would treat this thing.
If it is LFP and have proper temperature control setup, it should be okay.
it might be ridiculous to implement, but what if the RV batteries were otherwise used for house/building backup/storage with a solar setup?
V2L is a thing eg Lightning and Hyundai/Kia cars.
It would scale downward well, Sprinter or even old VW bus size where it can pull double-duty as a commuter/daily driver.
As for that campground, considering a $60 charging surcharge(?) is a go-away price (depending on the base rate it’s equivalent to a night at a Holiday Inn) I’m not sure I’d want to stay at the Fawlty Towers of campgrounds no matter what I was driving.
It isn’t a charging surcharge, it is merely bring an EV on site charge.
I’ve been waiting for a vehicle like this to become available in the RV market.
It solves/reduces a lot of problems simultaneously that are typical of RVs.
First… the fuel economy is greatly improved.
Second… it eliminates the need to have a separate generator
Third… it likely makes supplying electricity for appliances much more simple
Forth… Eliminates the problem of not being able to use a regular generator in a lot of places due to noise.
Fifth… Likely has way better handling and performance with a much lower center of gravity.
The biggest downside is this is likely to be really expensive up-front cost.
But I can see this type of RV getting snapped up by the movie industry, oil exploration/service and other industries that frequently use RVs for business purposes to work at remote locations. Something like this would replace their conventional RVs with generators.
For the recreational market, due to the added upfront cost, I only see this being appealing for the type of RV buyer who does A LOT of travelling throughout the year.
For the RV owner who only does a 1-2 week trip annually, the extra cost likely won’t make sense.
Series hybrids are the future. I’m stoked. Now add a range extender to that dope electric adventure bike that BRP made and you’ll *really* have something.
Isn’t an RV like one of the worst use cases for a hybrid? Like hybrids are optimal for lots of stop and go city miles but lose their advantage when cruising long distances at highway speed?
Unless the batteries onboard offer a lot of convenience/benefit to the living area once parked to justify the cost, or if someone really wants that low end electric torque to get off the line?
Just seems like kind of a waste of money to add technology/complexity that’s ideal for low speed stop and go and lots of miles for a vehicle that’s going to get used 2x per year and 98% highway.
In some ways, certainly, but many RVers and a lot of VanLifers add batteries to their rig anyways, so to be able to use them for mobility, as well as running accessories off the grid, seems like a nice double use. Secondly, the charging infrastructure for RVs is actually pretty excellent, where most campgrounds (and even some interstate rest areas [Ohio turn-pike]) have high-powered plugs for campers to use. Lastly, moving away from an expensive semi-based diesel truck engine to a far cheaper gas or diesel generator seems to make a lot of sense to me. Although I do concede that these cost savings are mitigated by the battery, but for that see my first point.
I’d say a series hybrid like this is ideal for an RV: No need for a separate traction engine and generator, you just have a single generator that can happily hum along at its most efficient RPM sending power to wherever it’s needed. Around my area, mountains exist, so a hybrid can regenerate battery power downhill, lessening brake wear and no jake brake needed.
An RV like this is going to be plugged into site power quite a bit, so now you’re basically refilling the gas tank too while you camp (for whatever all-electric range you can get anyway), and the 800V architecture makes DC fast charging super quick, though good luck fitting that thing in typical EV charging spots.
With this much electrical power on tap, you can use all electric appliances like induction cooktop, heat pump, hot water heater, etc, so no extra fuel types like propane required.
The biggest concern to me is the poor build quality RVs as highlighted by Autopian themselves. You really don’t want an 800V battery slipping around and shorting to the frame…
Consider that many RVs have generators for use when they are stationary. Now consider how long that big battery pack can power lights, fridges, stoves, heaters, etc.
And provide that power silently.
And that matters because many parks have restrictions on generator use due to noise.
Also with this being a plug in hybrid, for the first leg of a given journey, it can run in electric mode and thus, get VASTLY better fuel economy.
And even after that, you still have the benefit of the hybrid tech that includes regenerative braking and an ICE engine that can run at its optimal RPM.
And then when you stop to take a break, you can plug in if a plug is available. And if one isn’t available, no big deal.
Plus with most plug in hybrids, you can usually set it in “EV later” mode.. where it runs as a hybrid right from the start so that you’ll still have a fully charged battery at your destination to provide power for appliances and other things.
My own Ford C-Max (which I bought not long ago) has the same feature and I look forward to using it when I take it camping for the first time.
And thus, as someone who camps, I’m telling you that plug-in hybrids are a fantastic idea for RVs.
Is “it’s a hybrid!” the “thanks, it has pockets!” of the automotive world?
It’s kind of the equivalent to the tech/business world’s “Our product/service uses AI now!” from every dang company
Like i get that AI can be huge in some areas, but it’s getting ridiculous, feels like we aren’t far from seeing something like Heinz ketchup trying to claim they are somehow improved through some incorporation of AI
Very cool! Looking forward to hearing about it more.
140 Kwh battery ? That seems a little light for such a large space. If GM can get 205 Kwh into a standard truck frame I would expect at least double that given the space available in an RV.
Did you miss the part that this is a hybrid? That is an absolutely massive battery for a hybrid.
100%. This is a massive battery considering that this is a hybrid system. For reference, Ford’s powerboost F-150 comes with 1.5 Kwh battery, nearly 1/100th the size.
Looks like Harbinger makes 35kw modular packs that are enclosed in one large casting, which they call a gigacasting, for long term durability. I believe they’re also rigid enough to be used as stressed members. So between that extra bulk and being four separate components it’s not surprising that 140kw of their batteries takes up more space than a single Ultium battery. It’s also possible that stacking the batteries would have raised the center of gravity (and the floor of the RV) to an unsafe and unacceptable height.
This seems like an extraordinary idea. There is no need for additional house batteries or propane; the included driveline batteries can power the house for weeks without issue.
Weeks? Days certainly, but weeks?
140kwh is pretty massive, so unless you’re running AC, this could run a lot of accessories for a long time.
A good general estimate for houses in the US is 30-50 kWh per day. Probably 15-25 in an RV use case, so around a week is not implausible. If anything I think it is about 2x the size it should be.
RV systems are much more efficient compared to a house system. Also, the space is much smaller.
For reference, my RV has 1 kWh of lithium; this is suitable for 2 days of fridge, induction cooking, & 6-8 hours a day of running the AC.
I love that the paint job is not the traditional brown and taupe swishes!
Yes, that’s a HUGE innovation in the RV industry where everyone is afraid of doing anything different but will copy the hell out of anyone who does.
Or maybe it’s not so much about fear as it is some kind of Elkhart hive mind.
Sadly, only concept RVs are allowed to look this cool. The production version will almost certainly be brown and swoopy. 🙂
Sad, even plain would be better than 80’s relic brown and swoopy.
Lots of electricity + the RV industry’s well known build quality. What could go wrong?
I may or may not work for a truck manufacturer and they had their EV batteries shorting out to the frame so I am sure an RV company will be completely fine with giant batteries in their vehicles nothing will end badly at all /s
I don’t see any room for fresh/grey/black water tanks between those frame rails. Are they meant to be hung off the passenger side frame rail?
To compensate for the added stability of putting that drivetrain weight low, we’re installing all the holding tanks in the ceiling to help keep that “unstable at highway speed” feel. As a bonus, hearing your bodily waste slosh around above you adds to the aural experience.
You’re HIRED!
Huzzah! ‘Ol Gil here will be back on the horse in no time!
They’re going with a Dave Matthews style black water tank- just a hose off the side of the road
It only activates on bridges though, so make sure you travel to cities with a lot of river crossings.
You know, railroad lavatories used to dump straight onto the roadbed.
Uh-oh. Are we going to see an article next week from Ms Mercedes about esoteric taillights or a weird trim detail from a long dead brand?
Is this the beginning of The Great Confusioning?!? Will Hardigree buy several shitboxes and regale us with the trials of bringing each back from the brink, while SWG shops for and purchases a brand new, mainstream CUV?
WHERE WILL IT END?!?!
SWG would stay on-brand by picking something cheap and of questionable reliability. Thus, the Dodge Hornet is the only crossover for him.
I hear DT just dyed his hair black and is making cutting remarks about how cars look using cultural references and obscure English swears.
I would pay upwards of eight American dollars to see this happen. In fact, I think that for Halloween this year, each staffer should pick a different staffer as their costume! Adrian is an excellent choice for DT!! Can’t wait to see his mohawk!!
I’d shell out £10 sterling if he’d sport the Mohawk as well.
Even better if David uses previous-generation slang like ‘That’s just pants!’
It started when David bought a BMW.
Just say’n’.
If I recall correctly, Mr. JT also owns a Dodge RV, non-functioning, just to stay on brand.
This reminds me of back in the old days when Jezebel and Deadspin would switch writing staffs for a day (I think on April Fools?).
You should have seen my face when I heard Jason was the one who got the invite and not me. I even tried to have the invite changed! 🙂
Ugh, fine, time to go research some taillights and embrace my Jasoning.
I’d stay away from chainsaws if that’s the case.
Better nip this in the bud: when the deer jump at him riding a motorcycle it’s gonna be bad
I do dig the graphics on the sides of this thing. It’s certainly better than randomly applied swooshes.
For sure! Thank Thor they are finally coming out of the 90s paper cup designs.
100%. Even if the powertrain never sees production, they should run with this new paint scheme on their other products.
I feel utterly betrayed that this article wasn’t written by Mercedes.
Honestly we should just be happy that someone from the Autopian got invited to this at all.
I can’t say that this site, Mercedes, or any of us have been kind to Thor. Which they 100% deserve, btw.
It’s a bit of a Thor spot, for sure. But that’s what they get for building RVs out of balsa wood and paper mâché.
LOL. And Thor doesn’t even seem to be good at building things out of balsa wood. I think at least half of us have built a bridge or tower out of balsa that lasts longer than an Indiana built camper.
And I see based on the COTD article that Mercedes is at an RV show in Indiana today. So it seems today is Thor Hardcore day at The Autopian.
ThorCore, the new music genre where it’s just the sounds of structures collapsing played over a bass guitar.
No drums. Just rhythmic cracking of FRP. And the sound of vacuums sucking up MDF dust.
Thor didn’t give me this embargo and it didn’t invite me to the show, either. Airstream invited me and I found out in a very awkward way that Airstream didn’t actually have the power to invite me to the show.
It then got more awkward when the Thor rep mentioned the negative stories I’ve written. So…there’s that. 🙂
Keep fighting the good fight.
So they decided to give it to JT from the Bowel Business Report, brilliant!
They say “negative,” I say “passionately truthful.” Thor should know a true journalist isn’t going to collect the dust of their crumbling products and fashion it into a shallow puff piece.
They can run from the truth, but they can’t hide. You’re my trusted source on all things large vehicles. If you ever want questions answered about transit bus operations and general goings on, I can drop ya a line any time.
How does that even work? Did they give Jason the embargo specifically, or did they just send it addressed to “anyone at the Autopian except Mercedes because she was mean to us.”
They sent the embargo and the invite to Jason specifically. In reality, Jason could have just sent me the embargo anyway, but I was driving at the time. Sadly, the invite to actually drive the thing cannot be changed. They want Jason and nobody else. 🙂
If THOR built this, it’s gonna burn to the ground and it will be spectacular. Be careful
I think the THOR ownership experience is more like “death by a thousand cuts”. So while Jason is probably safe, the first people to own this will probably be wishing for death after a few months.
Then it will be hammer time
Was waiting for someone to work this in.
Hopefully you’ll get the time to visit the Studebaker museum. I did last year, and it was way bigger and better than I expected! Recommend if you’re in the area.
Who makes the I4 and what is the serviceability like? The engine location doesn’t make servicing the engine “fun”.
My guess is it drops out the bottom quite easily, and then it would be easy to service. Still very important question though.
Having spent 20 years working on heavy truck & coach, I’m betting the floor pulls up and you service it inside on your knees. #phrasing
Gross. I like my idea better.
Your idea would require heavy duty column lifts or a maintenance pit. Column lifts run roughly $20k per post, of which you need 4, and maintenance pits are infrastructure that also runs into tens or hundreds of thousands.
Access hatch? Can be done anywhere with no special equipment.
I didn’t say it was cheap, just easy haha. I am used to cars and most modern FWD cars you can drop the front subframe, with engine and trans, front wheels and suspension all out in one piece and it only takes a few minutes to get it all ready to drop. I was assuming they would make life easy for RV techs too, but yeah the equipment needed is obviously different. Well enjoy providing your service from your knees I guess.
Interestingly enough, we’re having that issue of changing our operation for new accessible transit vehicles. We’re moving to a FWD based bus (ProMaster) for the first time, so we have to change our equipment for that department to exactly what you’re talking about. I told them they’ll want at least 2 two-post hoists and a hydraulic lifting table.
Our current accessible fleet is 3500 Savanna based and get their maintenance on 4-post lifts.
Yeah that style is super convenient if you’re set up for it.
It’s less convenient when the engine and trans are longitudinally mounted and weigh 3500lbs or more combined.
Although, as a 4cyl, I’m guessing the engine/generator assembly in this will be closer to 1500lbs.
Are we still doing phrasing?
I mean, we’re not NOT doing phrasing.
Seriously, we have to bring “phrasing” back!!
Oh, just go ahead and pout.
… Are you not?
Some questions/suggestions:
MPG (obviously).
Is the waste heat from the REX used to heat the living space and/or hot water? If so would it be enough heat to comfortably live in the RV year round even through a Russian winter? If not why not?
Can the solar panels recharge the main battery in any reasonable time frame? I imagine an RV has a good amount of real estate up there. An extendable solar awning would help. Could that be an add on option?
How many gallons/hr does the REX use in stationary mode? Could it be set up to run on natural gas and propane as well? How loud is it? Is it quiet enough to use at all hours in a crowded campground yet not bother anyone?
Fit and finish, is it built better than a typical new RV shanty? How’s the insulation rating?
Is the cooktop electric? If so is it induction?
Is is AWD? It kinda looks like it in the drawings.
As a rule of thumb, you can theoretically get 1kW of solar energy per square meter. (At noon, on the equator, on a cloudless day with perfect solar panels). 3-200W/square meter is more realistic.
Guesstimating that this has about 25-30 square meters of roof you’d maybe get 10kWh of energy out of it over the course of a sunny day. It’s got a 140kWh battery, so it would take two weeks to fully charge. (Of course, with an RV you could have an awning made of solar panels and double your power pretty easily.)
Realistically, the solar panels will just mean that you might not need to run the ICE engine as much/at all to cover your daily electricity use, but won’t really help refill the battery.
You know, I never thought about the awning. Flexible panels on the awning that can roll up would be awesome. As you said, you just need to replace the power you use from fridges/fans/lights/water pumps.
1.) This is really cool
2.) Where in the hell would you charge it outside of an RV park? It won’t fit in a parking spot charger.
3.) I bet Mercedes is jealous (and rightfully should be).
Regarding #2, didn’t the Autopian publish an article about GM trying to build more charging stations that were pull-through, specifically for larger vehicles and trucks towing stuff? Certainly not common, but there’s more and more options. And there is home.
Pull-through stations are slowly becoming a thing!
I got to look at this thing yesterday at the show…from a long distance. You bet I’m jealous! But they specifically called for Jason on this one, no substitutions.
Jason, you are right in thinking that battery-electric RVs and motorhomes and campers are a pretty stupid idea. Actually, any battery-electric vehicle other than 15kW single-seater tilting tricycles for personal transportation in urban and peri-urban spaces is a stupid idea.
Trains seem to work pretty well on electricity.
Trains are not battery electric. They use diesel generators or get it from rails.
This is a great idea. Frankly, I’ve believed for awhile now that basically all ICE vehicles should have just been hybrids like 10-15 years ago, and we’d probably be in a lot better shape overall if that had happened, the technology has been proven for decades now, just do it
So beating your wife and kids, 15 to 25 % less did the trick?
(⊙ˍ⊙)