Today on Shitbox Showdown, we’re going into the future. (Insert cool ethereal-sounding music here.) We’re looking at cars that can only get more common in our price range as time goes on, and talking about what that might mean for us lovers of cheap cars.
But first, let’s go back in time to yesterday and see which Buick wagon you wanted:
And so it is. Shamu the Killer Whale wins. I think this is the right call; I like the looks of the old wagon better, but the newer Roadmaster feels like the “sweet spot” of automotive technology to me, and it sounds like a lot of you agree.
So let’s go from that sweet spot straight into the modern age, and look at a couple of cars that might as well be X-Wing fighters to some of us, looking under their hoods. Hybrid technology sounds cool, and it certainly works, but what happens when those cars have a couple hundred thousand miles on them, and are available for sale for only a couple grand? How does that complexity play when the fifth owner of these cars has to tinker with something on the weekend to get to work? What the hell does that light on the dash mean, and whaddaya mean it has two batteries?
I get the feeling that there are going to be a lot more cheap used hybrids for sale in coming years, so someone like me who only buys cheap used cars is eventually going to have to learn all this shit, because fifty miles to the gallon counts for a lot more than sharp handling and a snicky gearshift, at least when it comes to commuting. I’ve driven both of these cars, and they’re fine, and I wouldn’t mind driving either of them every day, as long as I have a fun stickshift purely dinosaur-powered toy for weekends (which I do). But I have to know I can keep them running myself, or there’s no point.
So let’s dive in, and see just what we’re up against.
2007 Toyota Prius – $2,000
Engine/drivetrain: 1.5 liter DOHC inline 4 plus electric motor, CVT automatic (kinda), FWD
Location: Austin, TX
Odometer reading: 205,000 miles
Runs/drives? Yes, but with a warning light on the dash
Priuses (or “Prii,” if you’re trying to be clever) are everywhere, and they’re Toyotas, so they probably will be everywhere for a long time to come. So it’s probably important to at least understand how the damn things work. I’m learning this too, so bear with me, and if you’re an expert in these things, feel free to point out what I get wrong.
As far as I can tell, the Hybrid Synergy Drive system consists of one small four-cylinder engine, two electric motors that can also act as generators, a really weird-ass tramsmission that I don’t quite understand, a regular 12V lead-acid battery, a big high-voltage nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery, and a computer to control it all. One motor acts as the starter and alternator for the normal 12V side of things, and the other is coupled to the engine through that weird transmission and either supplies power to the wheels or recharges the high-voltage battery, depending on what’s needed at the time. (Sheesh. More like Hybrid Sorcery Drive, am I right?)
This particular Prius has a big red warning light on the dash, and one thing that it has in common with regular cars is that red lights are bad. How bad? Opinions vary, but it could mean the battery needs “reconditioning” (deep discharging and recharging to gain back its capacity) or partial or full replacement. Opinions also vary on whether this is a do-it-yourself proposition, but none of the options sound cheap. However, the seller insists that it drives fine at the moment. You pays your money, you takes your chances, I guess.
Apart from the “Triangle of Death” (as the warning light is colloquially known), this looks like a 200,000 mile Toyota: grubby but basically fine. The catalytic converter has recently been replaced (and hopefully shielded against theft), and the tires are newish. There are some dents and scrapes along one side, which I guess makes this one a “Battle Damaged” X-Wing fighter.
This generation of Prius really is a nice, if uninspiring, way to get around. But are cheap ones like this going to be worth the trouble to keep going?
2007 Honda Civic Hybrid – $1,900
Engine/drivetrain: 1.3 liter SOHC inline 4 plus electric motor, CVT automatic, FWD
Location: Granger, TX
Odometer reading: 199,000 miles
Runs/drives? Yes, but has dead cells in the battery pack
Honda’s hybrid system, as I understand it, is nowhere near as complicated or weird. It uses a small gasoline engine, with an electric motor between it and the transmission that also acts as a generator to charge a high-voltage battery (and alternator to charge the 12V battery). Previous generations of Honda hybrids were available with manual gearboxes, but this second-generation of Civic Hybrid only came with a CVT. The motor acts as a helper, not a counterpart, to the engine, offering a boost to the tiny engine’s meager power output. Because of this arrangement, even if the high-voltage battery is completely toast, the car becomes basically a really underpowered normal Civic, insetad of a high-tech lawn ornament like a Prius with a completely dead battery.
This Civic is in about the same condition as the Prius, and is also hovering around 200,000 miles. The seller says it runs and drives fine, but needs five cells replaced in the battery. How they determined this, I don’t know. The seller claims the cells are “available on eBay,” but I couldn’t find any mention of such a thing, only complete battery packs. Reconditioning services are available, however, it looks like. I understand the process of reconditioning NiMH cells from my days as an RC racer: charge the battery all the way up, then run it all the way down, a few times, to break up crystals that form inside the cells and restore their capacity. Will it help in this case? I have no idea.
This car is also a little banged-up, and it looks like someone tried to break into it; it has what look like crowbar marks along the top of the passenger’s side front door. There are some general dings and dents here and there as well. But the interior looks pretty nice.
This one feels like a safer bet to the shadetree mechanic in me, simply because if there ever is a catastrophic failure of the big battery, it gets slow and ineffcient instead of dead. And the system feels more tinkerer-friendly.
It’s a brave new world, and it is finally catching up with us bottom-feeders. It’s still easy enough to avoid old hybrids and focus on strictly internal-combustion choices, but the fuel economy possibilities of hybrids are hard to ignore forever. The technology is a hell of a learning curve, but it might be worthwhile. Where do you want to start?
(Image credits: Craigslist sellers)
Well if you have to work on the car yourself, a DOHC 4-valve is way worse than a SOHC 4-valve using rockers.
The SOHC doesn’t need cams degreed if you remove the timing system to change a headgasket or cylinder head. The DOHC needs a complicated cam degree procedure that won’t be fun with regular tools. Cheater-marking the sprockets with paint also doesn’t work when the sprocket free-wheels on the cam using the bolt-force to lock it in place.
The cells for the Honda are available on Ebay and with a balance charger can be easily fixed. Removing 2 plugs on the IMA computer disables the battery but keeps the 12-volt DC-DC working so the battery will remain charged.
My 1st gen Insight blows away both of these on mileage by almost 50% and is also a never rusting Aluminum frame. It beat the Prius to market by half a year and without the hybrid system still nets over 70mpg. Forged aluminum control arms, no alternator, no hydraulic power steering pump, the only accessory on the belt is the water pump and air conditioner. Exhaust flange is 3 bolts off the head and won’t rust in place. Has a wideband O2 from the factory.
No contest in my opinion.
I voted for the Honda out of sheer cowardice. I’m not proud.
Prius all day. According to what I’ve read, Toyota caught Honda by surprise with how much mileage they were able to get out of the Prius, and as a result Honda had to abuse their battery to try to keep up. As a result, Civic Hybrid batteries tend to have a much shorter lifespan than Prius ones.
I personally wouldn’t bother with playing the whack-a-mole game replacing individual modules, which you’d have to do again every year or two since it still leaves you with an old battery overall. Entire brand new batteries can be had for under $2k and are pretty easy to DIY. 205k is just getting started for a gen 2 Prius so with a new battery I could see getting another 100k out of that car. Not bad for a $4k investment.
Disclaimer: I DD a silver 2007 Prius which also has a pretty beat up body. Mine was more than twice the price, but had no warning lights and a lot less miles. After a year+ it has saved me enough in gas that when I have to replace the battery I’ll still be ahead.
“Priuses (or ‘Prii,’ if you’re trying to be clever)…”
The actual Latin plural of Prius is Priora, but yeah, I’m beginning to accept that this ship has sailed (true both of the name and of the language).
Didn’t have to read to know the answer: Prius. That generation of Civic Hybrid is both slow and unreliable. The battery is known for failing rapidly. And if it’s had the fix it won’t get any better fuel mileage than a newer regular Civic. Plus the battery will still crap out eventually. Not one of Honda’s shining moments.
The interiors of this vintage of Japanese car all seem so outright hostile to live in to me. I can’t fault the engineering, but every time I’ve had to drive one I’ve found it unpleasant to *be* in. The weird split displays, instrument clusters not behind the steering wheel, awash in weird angles and unintuitive button layouts.
I do like the blue upholstery in the Honda, and find the interior to be less ugly, so that’s my pick.
Speaking only for me–I got used to the centered instrument cluster faster than I expected. All the most important information (speed, gear, “tach,” etc.) is on the left edge in your line of sight. And one little thing I do appreciate is that this means the steering wheel itself never *blocks* your line of vision of the instrument cluster. I remember in my old van that at certain angles one piece of information or another might be blocked from view based on how you were sitting, or leaning to see a mirror, etc.
While I would prefer mechanical climate controls, I’m grateful for the separate tiny climate control display, because it’ll be one less thing to worry about when I get around to replacing the head unit.
Link to vote hasn’t appeared for me on any of the last three.
At any rate, Prius for me. The people on r/Prius and PriusChat.com know their shit. It’ll be a bit of an investment, yes, but you can get that one running not only normally, but better than new, in a jiffy.
The big thing right now is getting Project Lithium replacements for your HV battery (~$2000-$2500, depending on model/year). They’re half the weight (~40 pounds instead of 80), yet have a higher capacity *and* let the car accelerate faster than stock. It can take the ~50mpg of a stock one to ~60. Honestly, sounds like a video game upgrade in terms of straight cash investment–> nearly risk-free improvement to the car.
I don’t drive my 2012 v enough to actually get gas savings from that upgrade in the short or even medium-term, but I do plan to get it if/when the original NiMH battery dies.
I’m only voting because I already made the trip: Honda because of motorcycles, V-12 engine, Richie Ginther, and Mike Hailwood.
Having once owned a very underpowered Honda with a rebuilt motor, I gotta go with the Civic. I know what I’m in for when the battery pack dies for good.
I voted for the civic, but I do have to give props to that generation of Prius. My best friend had one until a few months ago. It was trouble free until around 230k miles, where the dashboard only worked intermittently. She kept on driving it until around 250k miles, when she lost power brakes. A host of other issues that popper up after 230k such as throttle body, catalytic converter, and a dying hybrid battery made it too costly for her to fix. She sold it to a Prius specialty shop, and apparently they’re going to fix it and re sell it, so it’s story isn’t over yet. For all the complexity of the Prius, for it to make it 230k with almost no issues to speak of, is pretty impressive. It only ever went through one set of brake pads too, I changed them for her once at 140k.
I have one of those Civics.
You want the other car. I almost don’t care what the other car is. It is just a hair shirt of a car.
The Prius, and it’s not even close.
Prius parts are plentiful and cheap, Priuses are easy to work on (at least for me, I’m a mechanic for a living), and I actually like the things.
The Prius will continue to run less efficiently in gasoline motor mode until the traction battery is well and truly roached beyond belief. Junkyard packs are readily available, as are individual cells and new aftermarket traction batteries. And a DIY rebuild using reclaimed cells is not beyond question. It’s not a fun car, but it’s a great car.
The Honda will also die if the traction battery gets bad enough. There are a lot of miles between “not working” and truly dead. Everything about the battery is a lot less available. I don’t even know if a brand new aftermarket pack is available for these. The Honda is a little more fun, but a lot less great engineering went into them.
The internal planetary gearset and how the engine and motors are connected to them inside the Prius is absolute genius. Watching videos of how the Hybrid Synergy Drive works internally (specifically the Power Split Device) should be mandatory viewing until understood for any gearhead worth knowing, just because it’s so damned clever. And they rarely fail. Any failure is almost always something electrical, because mechanically, they’re pretty close to immune to wear and tear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofycaXByTc
The Honda is more traditionally built, but with an added electric motor stuck between the motor and transmission. Conservative, and built to Honda standards, but not revolutionary.
I’d take the Prius, because a Toyota engine and HSD means this thing will out-cockroach even a GM V6 powered car. The Honda is a good system, too, but nowhere nearly as good as what Toyota cooked up.
With a roached battery, they will both be pretty pathetic, but the Honda is almost certain to be at least a little less miserable to drive as the battery gradually goes from weak to just being ballast. “Common and affordable traction battery options” is the deciding factor for me, and why I chose the Prius.
My last few cars have been from Honda, so there is a comfort level there. But when it comes to hybrids, Prius are everywhere. I voted that way because of the community available to help me learn yet another thing I really don’t want to know.
I was leaning Prius in terms of overall value, but then I saw that side shot…woof. The warning light tells me the battery pack is probably on its way out if it isn’t already, which is no better than the Civic. Plus, as the article mentions, the Civic is still useable if worse comes to worse.
And did you see that sweet blue upholstery in the Civic? Holy moley, is that gorgeous.
Civic.
This makes me wonder what the future is for electrified cars. Will battery prices, and their installation cost, make it worthwhile for cars like this to have a long life in the shitbox market? Or, will these things be filling up junkyards in the next decade?
This was one of my points last week on EVs for the morning dump article. It’s a very real issue that the industry and EV enthusiasts are willingly remaining ignorant to right now. In 15 years what happens to an EV with a dead battery? If it were an ICE car you could drop in a $5k motor (worst case) but are you really gonna drop $15k into a 15 year old EV? I wouldn’t. And then what happens to the toxic batteries? A junk yard sure as shit won’t care about proper disposal.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the logistical hurdles for EVs are FAR from being solved to a point where we can scale them.
You’re a propaganda victim of the right wing media.
The batteries are rebuildable and refurbishable. Will those be as good as new? No. Will those cost $15,000? Not even close.
The batteries are no more toxic than the things an ICE is made of. And they’re infinitely recyclable. The junk yards you mention should be shut down by the EPA. Most junk yards are decently run businesses that care very much about avoiding liability for toxic waste, and do a pretty good job at managing it.
You’re entirely wrong about “the logistical hurdles for EVs are FAR from being solved to a point where we can scale them” because they’re already being produced and sold at large scale. 2.18 million EVs were sold last quarter alone.
Ah yes, the 15 year old car as a paperweight instead of a beater. The split between those that can afford a car and those that can’t only gets wider from here.
I hate Prii (sp?), but it’s the right choice here. The battery may be OK after reconditioning, but if it needs replacement, it’s cheaper and easier than the Civic, which defiantly needs a battery.
I’ll take the Civic, purely because it has a regular shift lever and not the annoying Prius one.
Just curious, have you owned one or…? It was definitely weird at first for me, but it went from “weird” to “completely unnoticeable background detail” surprisingly quickly. Unless the gen 2 ones work really differently from gen 3, but they look very similar.
The Civic hybrid has a cooler interior, with the blue seats and digital dash. It’s also less prone to catalytic theft from the tweekers.
Ditto to Nsane!
The only “fun” I ever had with either of these was to see how long I could keep them on the battery before the mouse motors jumped in. Answer: not very long.
Awful, awful cars. People bought tons of Priuses — and still do — but I still can’t see it.
These are both Old And In The Way.
Not going to take a position on either of these because neither seem worth it to me, but the sight of yet another silver 2nd gen Prius made me think about how certain vehicles just seem to *always* be a certain color. When I imagine a Prius in my head, it’s always that silver color. Even though I know it came in several other colors too, it’s hard to picture them.
Other random examples, at least for me personally, of common vehicles (I’ve never owned any of these in the colors listed, so it’s not like a repressed memory of my own vehicles, just a weird brain thing that seems very much in the spirit of this site)
GMT400 trucks: That dark maroon color, you all know the one.
GMT800 trucks: beige. All of these were beige, right? Especially the Suburbans/Tahoes.
GMT900 trucks: That blue/gray color
OBS Ford trucks: Navy blue
Ovoid Taurus: white
Chevy Lumina: white
Nissan Sentra/Altima: Gray
Dodge Grand Caravan: Red
Feel free to tell me how weird I am, how you owned one of these cars in a different color, etc. It’s just funny how the human mind works sometimes.
You’re weird.
Always happy to help!
my GMYT800 is red, but whatever. However I do agree, I would not buy either. These should be cautionary tales of the BEV future as both are going to be mechanically totaled if one were to have to actually change or even just recondition the batteries. A “refurbished” Battery for the Civic is 1200 to 3000 clams, and then you still might need a new motor and definitely a CVT soon.
In my experience, the GMT400 trucks are always that dark green they made. The Lumina always came in marroon. The rest I’d agree with.
Nope. Totally agree. I don’t think I’ve even seen a Prius that wasn’t silver (tho that could be my brain playing the same trick on me).
Around here most of the 2nd gen Prii seem to be mint green, although the silver was a close second.
Fond memories of the plum-colored Dodge Caravans of my youth.
GMT400 my dad owned in Green so I will always think they are that color
GMT800 Dad had navy blue, I had one in Bermuda Blue
My exs family had 3 different color prii (black, silver, and that light shade of green) then my sister owned a baby blue one for a while.
Our minds differ cause of our experiences, but I will say that I get excited when I see cars that are an actual color, vs the sea of monotony that has taken over the world. Whether that be with car colors or just the #brands “simplifying” their logos.
Take me back to when things looked more excited and oh, why yes, Get off my damn lawn!
I always associate the ovoid Taurus with that weird metallic teal color Ford had in the early 90s, but in my brain a Ford Tempo is always white.
I picture all late 90’s Thunderbirds in teal, unless they are the SC, in which case they are always red.
100% on the Prius. I don’t remember the last time I saw one in a different color outside on the blue Prime at work. I had a ’99 Silverado in a silverish/beige color, so right again. I was going to say beige for the Ovoid Taurus, myself. Oh, and the gold ’97-01 Camry with the horribly mismatched bumpers – that is one that is burned into my skull, too.
Also – we had a maroon Voyager when I was a kid. I like this game!
Good call on that Camry, absolutely correct.
Finally created an account just to weigh in here. Both are a little scary, between the body damage and the battery weirdness, but if these are your only options you need the Prius. The battery might need work (as opposed to the Civic, where the battery WILL need work). New tires are a big deal on cars this cheap. Priuses (Prii?) are way more common, making it easier to find used parts. And a Prius is way less finicky than a Honda hybrid.
Those Hondas suck to work on. If the 12V battery is even a little weak, all the electronics go haywire and the whole car hates you. If the traction battery is not holding a charge, the whole car won’t run right (as opposed to the Prius, where you just burn more gas and have lights on the dash).
12V battery is equally as testy on the Prius (I got my mom this exact same car, so I’ve got some experience). If the 12V system starts getting even a /little/ weak, all the wierd crap in the WORLD will start happening.
Can attest. 2012 Prius v, 12v dying led to multiple seemingly unrelated warning lights that all went away once the battery was replaced. Didn’t even suspect the battery until a few times it wouldn’t go into “READY” mode on the first push of the button.
Must be a hybrid thing generally, a Chevy Volt with a low 12 volt will wreak all kinds of havoc.
I’ll take the Civic.
Not that I want it.
Just that I’ve driven a Prius of that generation before, and all attempts to use the shifter made me want to rip it out of the console and throw it into traffic, then retrieve it, stomp on it a few times, then beat it against a brick wall, then shove it down a cow’s throat, then pick it out of the cow’s poop, then fire off a few shotgun rounds at it, then give it to a bunch of scientologists.
Damn.
But, like, how do you really feel about it?
I also had this generation of Prius. It is boring to drive, but the one reason I would choose it over the Civic is that it is surprisingly good at moving things. That hatchback with the seats folded down holds way more things than I expected.
Okay, with that established, how do you feel about the gen 3 shifter (if you’ve used one)? I have a gen 3 and I’ve never used a gen 2, but they aesthetically look extremely similar so I don’t see why it would work differently.
Aside from the fact it bounces back into a starting position on releasing it and that you have to *hold it* in the neutral position for a second for it to *actually* shift into neutral, I’m quite used to it and unoffended.
I have not found myself behind the wheel of a Gen 3. The Prius belonged to my mother-in-law and she didn’t really like it and ended up trading for a Subaru, which she loves. I just remember trying to shift it into reverse over and over and it not doing anything but occasionally beeping at me. It wasn’t my car so I never bothered to learn what I did wrong, and it was so not-fun to drive, I didn’t have any desire to.
I’ll never be a fan of shifters that don’t make an obvious gear change and remain in a position that lets the driver know really quickly what gear they’re in. This has been proven to be a safety issue over and over.
Not that the 4-speed shifter in my Spitfire is any better. Best guess about reverse sometimes. Even after I rebuilt the shifter.
(That’s not to say I HATE Priuses. Logically, they are GREAT cars and bring a lot of good to the world)
Interesting! Mine beeps at me constantly (inside) when it’s in reverse, which is aurally annoying but conceptually helpful. (Apparently there’s a way to turn it off, but I don’t think I care quite enough to do that.)
I also find the gear indicator on the display to be competent enough.
But I get it, not everyone’s cup of tea and there was a certain borderline-intoxicating feeling shifting the old automatic column shifter in my ’97 Econoline. *THUNK THUNK THUNK*
Neither. These are both so complicated and painfully uncool that I’d rather pass altogether.
Priuses are shockingly simple. Yes, they have more electronic components than a normal ICE, but the mechanicals are dead simple. They’re actually great to wrench on.