It used to be that you couldn’t get a real sports car or supercar without a manual transmission. Now the opposite is becoming true. Manual cars are becoming rarer which means, inevitably, that manual transmission cars are now super valuable. A quick look at the upcoming Monterey auctions shows cars with three pedals are where it’s at this year.
What’s the opposite of a ’90s sports car with a manual transmission? Possibly a new Rivian, which is neither particularly manual nor highly desirable at the moment. The electric SUV/truck-maker thinks it’ll hit its sales target for the year after a dip in the third quarter, but that’s still not a huge number.
Honda more than blew through its quarterly projections due in large part to a strong desirability for hybrids, a lower yen, and other factors. In fact, Honda is doing so well that ex-Nissan-Renault-Mitsubishi CEO Carlos Ghosn is claiming that Honda is looking to steal his old company.
It’s another hump day Morning Dump and this one should be fun.
Monterey Car Week… More Like Manual-rey Car Week, AMIRITE?
That joke didn’t work as well as I’d hoped, but you get the general idea.
Many years ago I was editor of a small automotive media concern called Jalopnik and I had a columnist you’ve also probably never heard of named Chris Harris. He wrote a piece for me that said, essentially, the death of manuals was overrated and that, in fact, manual transmissions would eventually be the more valuable option.
This was ten years ago, around the launch of the Porsche Cayman GT4 and his belief was that the GT4 was extremely important as a harbinger of a rethink in performance vehicles:
No, seriously – the GT4 is a massively important test-case for the future viability of the manual transmission. It sows the seed of a new generation of drivers’ cars that speak a language of interaction and not lap-times. This I think will be the new performance niche for the dominant brands, and it makes perfect sense on two important levels. It allows them to move the conversation away from ever decreasing lap times at the Nurburgring – something that needs to happen as soon as humanly possible. And it introduces the concept of low-volume ‘specials’ as viable money-making opportunities.
In the neo-manual phase, the stick will become the chronograph to the digital watch of the early 1980s – not as technically good on an Excel spreadsheet, but way more desirable. And capable of supporting a premium price.
Chris was correct. He was sometimes correct and I think he was able to take his abilities to some regional British television show, if memory serves. He was talking about new cars, primarily, and I think the success of both the 911R and Gordan Murray cars, as well as the general lack of success of the Rimac Nivera and Pininfarina Battista tend to back this theory up.
This trend isn’t just limited to new cars, either, I was listening to Hannah Elliott and Matt Miller talk about the upcoming Monterey auction in their latest podcast and Hannah made the point that one big trend in auctions right now are manual sports cars. Matt also pointed out the general lack of desirability of that generation (or any generation) of automatic cars, especially calling out the Ferrari F1 transmission and the strange Aston Martin sportshift automated manual.
In her Monterey preview for Bloomberg, Hannah made a similar point, and quoted an investor in Singer:
The current push for electric vehicles has only served to increase enthusiasts’ appetite for increasingly scarce manual-gearbox, internal combustion, roaring and rumbling sports cars…
I think that’s quite true and a quick look at the lots up at Monterey this year show a lot of manual Ferraris and AMG products. I think the most telling description is of this 2010 Aston Martin DBS Volante at RM:
First, DBS. The inaugural DBS arrived in 1967, toward the tail end of Aston Martin’s crucial David Brown era, as a muscular yet elegant tourer. The DBS nameplate was revived in 2007; true to form, it was an imposing machine wrapped in instant-classic styling. Motivation came from a 510-horsepower version of the company’s 5.9-liter V-12, which could be paired with either six-speed manual or six-speed automatic gearboxes.
It could be paired with a six-speed manual transmission. You have to get all the way to the bottom to find out that this beautiful example, unfortunately, wasn’t.
Rivian Is Doing Fine, Thank You For Your Concern
As Lucid has Saudi Arabia, Rivian now has a helpful pater in Volkswagen. Based on the company’s latest financial report it’s going to need the assistance.
From the shareholder letter:
Rivian produced 9,612 vehicles and delivered 13,790 vehicles during the second quarter of 2024. As expected, production was impacted by plant downtime associated with the retooling upgrade. As a result, deliveries exceeded production as we significantly reduced inventory of our first generation R1 trucks and SUVs. In addition, despite the vast majority of R1 deliveries in the quarter being first generation R1 vehicles, we continued to see the impacts of our cost initiatives and experienced an improvement in gross profit per vehicle delivered in the second quarter as compared to the first quarter of 2024. The plant is now in the process of ramping production of the second generation R1.
Basically, the company had to slow down production and try to offload its first-gen trucks while it tried to tweak its existing lines to make the more profitable “second generation” R1. This helped the company lose less money, but now that inventories are low it’s going to likely have a down quarter as it rebuilds.
Honda Is Doing Better Than Fine, Thank You For Noticing
While the yen may be going back up after a little BOJ intervention, Japanese exporters are still in a great position to grab profits. Honda, in particular, had its most profitable quarter ever as people continued to buy the company’s hybrid vehicles.
Overall, Honda thinks it’ll sell about 1 million hybrids in 2024, one of which they sold to me. So I get it.
Profit in the April-June quarter rose 23 percent to 485 billion yen ($3.3 billion), thanks to steady demand for cars in the U.S. and strong two-wheeler sales in India and Brazil, Honda said Aug. 7.
The company also cited a weak yen as a reason for its strong results. The automaker kept its outlook unchanged at 1.42 trillion yen.
China remains a challenge for Honda, though strong sales in the United States are keeping the company’s exports above water in the first half of the year.
Ghosn: The Honda-Nissan-Mitsubishi Deal Is A ‘Disguised Takeover’
Fugitive ex-Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi CEO Carlos Ghosn has crawled out of his transport box and climbed onto his soap box in order to decry the news that Honda, Nissan, and Mitsubishi are entering into a big joint venture to try to prep for a future of software-defined vehicles and electric cars.
Hans Greimel spoke with Ghosn and here’s what the man himself had to say:
Ever since rebalancing the alliance with Renault last year to gain independence, Nissan has resembled a company “trying to find a savior,” Ghosn said. “Signing an agreement with Honda looks like an initiative of trying to turn attention away from the miserable results.”
Ghosn was once Nissan’s savior and you can sense a little saltiness in this statement given that a small cabal of Nissan employees conspired to have him tossed in jail. He added:
“I can’t imagine for one moment how it’s going to work between Honda and Nissan unless it’s a takeover, unless it’s a disguised takeover by Honda of Nissan and Mitsubishi with Honda in the driver’s seat,” Ghosn said. “It’s going to be a takeover, a disguised takeover.”
Does Carlos Ghosn read TMD? If he does, holler at yer boy. This is just a more conspiratorial take on what I said last week, which is that Honda should just take over Nissan and Mitsubishi to make one company:
A consolidated Nissan and Honda bring engineering and manufacturing scale without the huge culture clash. I also don’t think their products are so similar that they can’t work in concert. Nissan/Mitsubishi have a truck competency that Honda lacks whereas Honda is way better at building hybrids.
I say do it!
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
I have sensed some friction in the comments over The Last Dinner Party which, admittedly, has such a cohesive schtick that it can sometimes feel a touch pastiche. I say: who cares? It’s a good schtick and they rock. This cover of Blondie’s “Call Me” for Like A Version is great.
The Big Question
How much more is a used sports car/sedan/supercar with a manual worth to you than an identical car with an automatic transmission?
I fail to understand how a Nissan takeover would benefit Honda at all.
Is it just to say they’re bigger or as big as Toyota? Then I say skip it. You don’t want to drag that corpse around trying to figure out how to bring it back to life. That will just distract from making your core business better.
It would give Honda that Big Altima Energy.
I would say the increased profits from manufacturing all those replacement bumpers would likely raise margins by 4-6%. Except Altima drivers don’t replace damaged bumpers obviously.
Honda wants Nissan’s EVs.
It’s hard to overstate how far behind Japan is on EVs. They got tangled up in domestic politics, so they had a late start. And it’s not the 1990s anymore, so instead of swooping in fashionably late and showing the amateurs how to party, they stumbled across the threshold and horked up the BZ4X, MX-30, and e:NY1 on the doormat. I’ll save you the rant, but the real-world performance of these EVs is ten years (!) behind.
Nissan’s EVs are deeply mediocre, but that’s a virtue here. The Leaf has too many cut corners, but it does turn a profit. The Ariya needs a price cut, but it’s otherwise competent. Honda wants in.
Personally, I think Honda would be better off doing it themselves. Just design the drivetrain first and wrap the car around it, instead of vice versa. But Honda’s confidence is clearly shaken, and they’re partnering with anyone who knows how electricity works, including GM and Sony.
Japan honestly asks the question, are BEVs a near term viable solution if governments weren’t forcing the issue? Toyota has said many times they don’t make sense at this point. Hybrids are a different story.
I thought it was the catalytic converter?
In keeping with the Autopian sense of humor is this the response of the day?
Somebody needs to make a Honda CR-Z that doesn’t suck. Small + hybrid + manual should have been a home run but the whole was less than the sum of its parts… shoulda bought one when I had the chance though.
“#DIV0!”
Doing the math: Because the identical car with an auto is worth 0. To me.
Automatic transmissions are for people who order sweet tea in restaurants; they’re content to let somebody else determine how their tea tastes. When I want sweetened tea, I order unsweetened and sugar to flavor it to my tastes, by stirring my own.
I can tell where you are not from based on this sweet tea take.
Just sadly trapped there by circumstance, for now.
Nah the better metaphor would be autos are sweet tea and manuals are unsweetened tea. Manual drivers love that raw feel.
If that’s the case then I think all for 4 or 5 of us DCT enjoyers are entitled to being Arnold Palmers
Yeah, I don’t miss a manual.
But the sugar doesn’t melt into the tea. It just sinks to the bottom of the glass…
Use powdered sugar.
“the general lack of success of the […] Pinanfirna Battista”
Is that the same company that makes Alpha Romeos?
To me it depends on the car. I am not a manual diehard and have stated the reasons why enough by now so I won’t stick my dick in that hornet’s nest again. That being said, there are many cars that are absolutely ruined by a lackluster automatic, particularly older ones. Current autos like the ZF8 or GM tuned 10 speed are so good that I don’t necessarily pine for a manual…but in other situations it definitely matters.
If I’m looking at a WRX there’s no fucking way I’m buying one with a godforsaken CVT. If I’m buying a Toyobaru or Miata I wouldn’t even vaguely consider the dated, half assed torque converters in either car…both because they slow the cars down substantially and the point of a lightweight, rear wheel drive experience that exists solely for your driving pleasure is to row your own gears. And even though I like the ZF8 a lot I absolutely wouldn’t take it over the stick in the Supra/Z4.
All of those cars are driver’s cars first and transportation second. If you’re already compromising why not go all out? I have no interest in pre PDK automatic Porsches and the market agrees. If it’s an older car that’s either stick or slushbox of course I’d go stick…and the bizarre, early auto manuals of the 2000s are a hard pass as well. Why the fuck would I want a clunky, unrefined automatic in something like a Ferrari 360? It’s all the minuses of a manual without the benefits of an automatic. Extremely dumb.
Anyway, I don’t think people actively dislike The Last Dinner Party…I think it’s moreso that the level of hype exceeds how interesting the music is and their overnight success story feels a little less than organic. When it comes to stuff under the rock umbrella authenticity is really important to people. They’re not my cup of tea at all, but I definitely don’t dislike them. They’re just kind of…there. They’re fine but not really remarkable in any way.
I think the F360 actually used a real manual transmission with automated shifting and clutch actuation.
I think converting it to manual is more about adding the manual controls than physically swapping the trans.
I’ll put in another vote that any ICE with an automatic is something I have zero desire to buy, and have never owned. If it only has 2 pedals, better be an EV, or at least a range extended EV. If it has an engine as the primary motivation, the 3rd pedal is a requirement.
It really depends on the car. Big sedans/SUVs with lots of torque are generally better with automatics, but a Miata should always be stick. High powered sports/sporty cars can go either way depending on how well the engine/trans combo works together.
The Fiat 500L is a car that was destroyed by a crappy automatic! I have one with the relatively rare 6 speed manual, and it is a fantastic car that’s great fun to drive. The stick makes the car very engaging and lets you keep the tiny Abarth engine on boost (above 3k rpm) where it makes surprising power and generally puts a smile on your face.
The automatic version was clunky and incredibly unreliable. It was also in 90% of the US cars, leading to great deal scorn for the 500L in general.
Serious question – how has the reliability of the MultiAir engine been for you in your 500, and how many miles do you have on it? I’m seriously attracted to the *concept* of a manual Fiat 500 Sport or Abarth as a fun commuter car, but the reliability reputation of that car company in general and my concerns with the longevity of the lost motion hydraulic valve actuation they used in the MultiAir specifically scares me away from seriously considering it. But reputations and concerns are only that – and I’ve owned plenty of cars that “everyone knows” are lousy (Daimler Chrysler era Hemis, plastic-fantastic GM’s, etc…) that have turned out to be among the most reliable vehicles I’ve ever heard of, let alone owned. So some real-world examples from someone who isn’t trying to sell me something would be very interesting to hear!
Mine is a 2014 I bought two years ago with 35K miles on it, and its at 70k today. I’ve had no issues with the engine at all, but I have experienced a common 500L problem with the strut bearings making noise when turning at low speed. The sound was like a painful groan mixed with an occasional popping noise, and the first time it happened I seriously thought something major was failing in the steering. I went online and discovered that it is a common problem, one that seems to cause no real issues beyond the annoying sound. You can buy aftermarket bearings… but I sprayed mine down with lithium grease and the noise has not come back (its been around 8 months). Other than that, I have had no issues mechanically.
I believe many of the general problems people had with the 500L were actually caused by the dual clutch automatic overheating in US traffic, which pushed under hood temperatures up high enough to create issues with the wiring and other components.
I was looking for a clean Mazda CX-5, and decided to test drive the Fiat on a whim. I expected it to be on the small side, but the interior is absolutely huge! The rear seat legroom and headroom was noticeably better than the other cars I had looked at, and the doors open wide. This was important for me because I needed something that could occasionally carry older folks to appointments. The cargo area is however is on the small side.
Mine is a Trekking, which has nicer wheels, trim, and equipment then the base model. And I highly recommend the panoramic sunroof. The A/C is ice cold, all the switches are one touch, and vision is terrific. My biggest complaints would be an overly sensitive tire pressure warning system and a truly crappy backup camera.
I kinda went down the rabbit hole with the 500L, and just remembered that you were talking about buying the smaller 500… so most of my earlier post may not apply. I have driven a standard 500, and even with no turbo it was a hoot! 🙂
This is a fine example of a subgenre specific to me called “Listen Don’t Watch;” it’s a pretty great cover, but they immediately told me I’m not the target audience with their presentation. Not even the fact that they were clearly having a good time (especially the lead guitar player) could overshadow the singer’s head-doily and the bass player’s streamers. Difficult to listen objectively while subjected to so much twee.
As collector cars go, I’d prefer a manual transmission. If I look inside a car at a museum, I expect to see the stick shift. But if an owner is actually planning on ever driving the vehicle, and maybe they’ve got bad knees, I can understand the automatic.
This is me. I love my Miata, but it can hurt to drive it.
I love my Miata, but it can hurt to get in/out of it.
I’d say a manual is 100% more valuable to me seeing as I’ve never owned an automatic. Even with terrible commutes sitting in stop and go traffic every day for over a decade I still insist on a clutch pedal.
That’s crazy. I have to sit in traffic about once a month and the manual drives me nuts. Maybe you just have an incredibly strong left quad from years of stop-and-go in a manual?
I just pop it into neutral a lot but mostly after all this time I’ve just grown numb to it both physically and emotionally. Except on my motorcycle, stop and go traffic with a hand clutch is still hell on earth.
I’ve owned one automatic since the 90’s. I didn’t own it long. I live where our traffic is consistently rated in the top 10 nationally (bottom? whatever, traffic here sucks. We had a tea party once). Keep fighting the good fight!
Depends on the car and traffic but if you put a relatively torquey car once moving into second you basically have one pedal driving from 2 to 40 kmph in my car saving brakes and petrol by coasting with the clutch when needed.
manual – sale
no manual – no sale
That makes sense for a track car, but if you’re just trying to have some on-road fun then lap times don’t really matter. If you also have to drive your fun car in heavy traffic… that can change things.
The solution is two cars (per driver).
Americans are suffering, yet neither party has offered this solution.
Depending on where you live, that’s potentially a non-starter.
Space (or lack thereof) and insurance would kill you where I am with that many vehicles.
Shopping for certain vehicles, the difference I’m willing to pay is infinite. Not because there is no limit to what I’ll spend, but because I simply will not buy an automatic version of some cars.
I guess the difference could be the cost of a manual swap, but that’s a big pain in the ass. Unless I literally cannot find a manual I wouldn’t consider doing that. Especially since on some cars that cost is huge. Just watched a video the other day where a guy had manual converted an F360 and the cost of the conversion was $25k (on a $47k well-used Ferrari).
I don’t buy used, so the question is only relevant to me as far as resale to others goes.
As far as new cars go, don’t tell automakers, but I probably would be willing to pay a few thousand bucks for a manual *in certain circumstances, on certain vehicles* Example: the C8 Corvette with a TR6060.
Counter examples:
I will not and would not buy a manual in a truck anymore; the autos have become too good and the manuals are too inconvenient.
I don’t necessarily think the driving experience of a typical FWD-based sedan, van, or crossover is improved by a vague, cable-shifted manual. Perhaps I’m spoiled with the directness of the transmission being my seatmate in the Viper, but economy/normal car manuals are often more trouble than they’re worth in enjoyment IMO. In any case I’m not paying extra for one.
All manuals are not created equal. I had a 6-Speed BRZ and a 6-Speed Forester. They are obviously not the same transmission. The Forester feels like its transmission belongs in a tractor, while the BRZ felt great.
I actually have the same TR6060 transmission in both my Viper and my Holden and the experience is quite different. So much depends on other factors of the car’s design.
For the most part I think we’re really only talking about sports cars, and perhaps one of the few remaining sports sedans before they go fully extinct on us.
As many others have stated, automatic transmissions have gotten quite good so why would you want your family hauler or truck to have a manual? Maybe if you’re an off-road enthusiast you might enjoy hitting the downshift on the down grade or sliding in the mud while shifting as much as I enjoy hitting that perfect shift going into a corner but there aren’t many other driving scenarios I can think of that can offer a more fun experience.
So, yeah if I were buying a 911, a Vette, Mustang or any other sporting coupe or roadster I would pay more. How much more depends. Mustang I’m looking at $1500-2000 I’d be willing to pay for the experience. In a Porsche I’d pay the porsche tax of probably closer to $4-5K maybe.
TL;DR: I am absolutely willing to pay more for the more fun experience. I’m already paying more for the performance car so why not go big on how much fun it would be?
You and I are speaking the same language here.
My old truck is a manual because back then autos were terrible. I really enjoy driving it and towing isn’t a problem until I get above 8k lbs, or reversing uphill on pavement with a heavy trailer, then I’d take the automatic. If I had a Ford I could unlock the front hubs and put it in low range on the T-case. It’s nice not worrying about the long throws and slow shifts losing significant speed and that awful gap from 3rd to 4th on the 5 speed nv4500 when towing heavy.
A perfectly matched heel-and-toe en route to said perfect apex is a feeling as good as sex, and you’ll not convince me otherwise. I’m 53 and this is as true to me still as it was 30 years ago when I first learned how.
I don’t really care that the GT-R’s have quicker lap times, I’m having more fun than they are.
That suggests to me you’re not good at one or the other 😉
I wouldn’t have waited so long to learn the sex thing, but otherwise…. carry on.
What’s funny about that example to me is that the #1 reason to buy a Blackwing over its competition is the manual. I’m sure the auto is fine, but there are better ways to spend $100-120,000 if you don’t need to shift for yourself IMO.
Do they let you use discounts on Blackwings? That’s awesome if they do. In years past when I had a supplier discount all the good stuff was ineligible.
I really like the chronograph-vs-digital-watch analogy. I think that explains it well. It also may end up applying to ICE cars vs. electrics, somewhere down the road.
About ten years ago I posited that eventually, a gasoline car will present a value proposition over an electric. My theory was that as electricity demand goes up, so will the price, and as gasoline demand goes down, so will the price. In theory you could eventually fuel an efficient gasoline car for less than you could charge an electric to drive the same distance, in fact I think in some markets this is already occurring.
So not only do I think combustion cars will always have a future among the enthusiast crowd, it’s entirely possible that they will in the lowest end of the market spectrum as well, as long as a clever manufacturer saw the potential of this and was able to sell the idea to consumers, despite it being counter to current efficiency thinking.
And as long as the relatively high fixed operating costs of oil extraction and refining allowed for gas to remain cheap in the face of lower demand.
I used to work in the industry and drillers just … shut the drills off when oil gets too cheap. Commence thumb twiddling until prices creep back up from the constrainted supply. In the absence of (more) government incentives, they aren’t going to keep sucking it out of the ground without a profit.
The issue is that renewable electricity is getting cheaper than electricity from fossil fuels, and many people have the option of generating their own electricity at home with solar. On the other hand, gasoline currently has the requirements of finding the oil deposits, pumping it out of the ground, transporting it to a refinery, and then transporting it again to a gas station. There is a lot of overhead and large industrial complex type of stuff needed. And much of the oil industry is controlled by a cartel. If someone comes up with an affordable contraption that can just be stuck on the roof of a house and dribbles out fuel when the sun is shining, that would change things, but right now renewable/eFuels are super expensive and not projected to get cheap.
I think that covid is a good indication of what could happen as demand for gasoline drops, just way more rapid. Initially, with the rapid drop in demand, prices dropped quickly, but then the oil companies adjusted. At least in the US, refining capacity dropped ~10%, some refining was converted to renewable diesel/SAF, and investment in any new production dropped a lot. Once demand ramped back up, the oil companies just raked in profit.
I don’t think any of the big oil companies are planning to invest significantly in production capacity at this point (in the US), and if demand drops significantly, I highly doubt that they will continue to produce at low prices, instead ramping down/swapping over to different things such as SAF. Initially, such as now, gasoline prices will drop in the shorter to medium term with lower demand, but eventually it won’t be worth the cost to support all of the needed infrastructure. If the overhead costs are spread out over less and less product, long term that should drive costs up.
With low enough demand, gasoline might become the unwanted waste byproducts of plastics production.
I can definitely see gas cars becoming reliable ultra low end transportation in that case, but with cities probably banning gas cars within city limits within the next 50 years that’s probably going to not be long term.
Maybe “I want a gasser with a stick” will become the “i want a pony” for the next generation: generally recognized to be desirable, but prohibitively expensive and/or inconvenient for all but the ultra rich. Assuming the next generation even want to drive as opposed to “mobility” in whatever form that exists.
That’s…that’s the opposite of how a supply-demand curve works. At high demand for electricity, prices will come *down* to equilibrium as supply increases, unless for some reason you’re positing that electricity supply will be constrained.
If Honda can remake Nissan into what it was 20 years ago, I’m all for it.
But don’t let anything left over from the Renault days touch Honda… that would be detrimental.
I immediately filter for manual transmissions and ignore all other listings.
There’s always some jerk who has it listed wrong.
You scroll through the pictures only to find no third pedal.
Seriously. They could just select Automatic and be right 97% of the time.
Some dealers think a flappy paddle auto is a manual.
When I see a low-priced manual, I go immediately to the interior pictures and it’s almost always an automatic.
I’ve never daily driven an automatic. Its been almost 25 years since I stared “daily driving”. I have converted two auto cars to manual though and then driven them for a good while. So i guess what i’m getting at is, I’m not going to buy the automatic. I will instead just buy something else that DOES have a manual (or maybe convert the auto to manual…for that I would buy the auto).
Weird flex but you do you buddy…
I think the exhaust manifold(s) would probably be hotter, but okay.
Exhaust valves- even hotter!
Leave that gear lever in the top pic in the sun for a while, and it’ll give that manifold a run for it’s money.
As long as the Honda / Nissan merger doesn’t end up like Boeing / McDonnell Douglas where the more aggressive losers took over and ran the combined company into the ground.
McDonnell Douglas’s (grammatically incorrect sorry) stink still remains today in Boeing
Hopefully Nissan learns something from Honda.
Any car with a manual option will be my first choice over the automatic version. Example, my Ford Ranger, Jaguar X-Type, Honda Insight.
100% because if it was offered with both, I’m not getting the automatic.
The low end of original Honda NSXs is all autos.
I’d buy an auto if the discount was enough for a manual conversion, and if I had that much money, which I do not.
I would as long as there’s no cutting into the tunnel/firewall/dash needed. If there is, the auto+conversion would have to be a good bit cheaper than the factory manual.
Math Teacher: your calculation is incorrect. Please try to divide by zero.
Suadi Arabia. Is that a Brooklyn accent?
No, that would be Suadi Arabier.