It used to be that you couldn’t get a real sports car or supercar without a manual transmission. Now the opposite is becoming true. Manual cars are becoming rarer which means, inevitably, that manual transmission cars are now super valuable. A quick look at the upcoming Monterey auctions shows cars with three pedals are where it’s at this year.
What’s the opposite of a ’90s sports car with a manual transmission? Possibly a new Rivian, which is neither particularly manual nor highly desirable at the moment. The electric SUV/truck-maker thinks it’ll hit its sales target for the year after a dip in the third quarter, but that’s still not a huge number.
Honda more than blew through its quarterly projections due in large part to a strong desirability for hybrids, a lower yen, and other factors. In fact, Honda is doing so well that ex-Nissan-Renault-Mitsubishi CEO Carlos Ghosn is claiming that Honda is looking to steal his old company.
It’s another hump day Morning Dump and this one should be fun.
Monterey Car Week… More Like Manual-rey Car Week, AMIRITE?
That joke didn’t work as well as I’d hoped, but you get the general idea.
Many years ago I was editor of a small automotive media concern called Jalopnik and I had a columnist you’ve also probably never heard of named Chris Harris. He wrote a piece for me that said, essentially, the death of manuals was overrated and that, in fact, manual transmissions would eventually be the more valuable option.
This was ten years ago, around the launch of the Porsche Cayman GT4 and his belief was that the GT4 was extremely important as a harbinger of a rethink in performance vehicles:
No, seriously – the GT4 is a massively important test-case for the future viability of the manual transmission. It sows the seed of a new generation of drivers’ cars that speak a language of interaction and not lap-times. This I think will be the new performance niche for the dominant brands, and it makes perfect sense on two important levels. It allows them to move the conversation away from ever decreasing lap times at the Nurburgring – something that needs to happen as soon as humanly possible. And it introduces the concept of low-volume ‘specials’ as viable money-making opportunities.
In the neo-manual phase, the stick will become the chronograph to the digital watch of the early 1980s – not as technically good on an Excel spreadsheet, but way more desirable. And capable of supporting a premium price.
Chris was correct. He was sometimes correct and I think he was able to take his abilities to some regional British television show, if memory serves. He was talking about new cars, primarily, and I think the success of both the 911R and Gordan Murray cars, as well as the general lack of success of the Rimac Nivera and Pininfarina Battista tend to back this theory up.
This trend isn’t just limited to new cars, either, I was listening to Hannah Elliott and Matt Miller talk about the upcoming Monterey auction in their latest podcast and Hannah made the point that one big trend in auctions right now are manual sports cars. Matt also pointed out the general lack of desirability of that generation (or any generation) of automatic cars, especially calling out the Ferrari F1 transmission and the strange Aston Martin sportshift automated manual.
In her Monterey preview for Bloomberg, Hannah made a similar point, and quoted an investor in Singer:
The current push for electric vehicles has only served to increase enthusiasts’ appetite for increasingly scarce manual-gearbox, internal combustion, roaring and rumbling sports cars…
I think that’s quite true and a quick look at the lots up at Monterey this year show a lot of manual Ferraris and AMG products. I think the most telling description is of this 2010 Aston Martin DBS Volante at RM:
First, DBS. The inaugural DBS arrived in 1967, toward the tail end of Aston Martin’s crucial David Brown era, as a muscular yet elegant tourer. The DBS nameplate was revived in 2007; true to form, it was an imposing machine wrapped in instant-classic styling. Motivation came from a 510-horsepower version of the company’s 5.9-liter V-12, which could be paired with either six-speed manual or six-speed automatic gearboxes.
It could be paired with a six-speed manual transmission. You have to get all the way to the bottom to find out that this beautiful example, unfortunately, wasn’t.
Rivian Is Doing Fine, Thank You For Your Concern
As Lucid has Saudi Arabia, Rivian now has a helpful pater in Volkswagen. Based on the company’s latest financial report it’s going to need the assistance.
From the shareholder letter:
Rivian produced 9,612 vehicles and delivered 13,790 vehicles during the second quarter of 2024. As expected, production was impacted by plant downtime associated with the retooling upgrade. As a result, deliveries exceeded production as we significantly reduced inventory of our first generation R1 trucks and SUVs. In addition, despite the vast majority of R1 deliveries in the quarter being first generation R1 vehicles, we continued to see the impacts of our cost initiatives and experienced an improvement in gross profit per vehicle delivered in the second quarter as compared to the first quarter of 2024. The plant is now in the process of ramping production of the second generation R1.
Basically, the company had to slow down production and try to offload its first-gen trucks while it tried to tweak its existing lines to make the more profitable “second generation” R1. This helped the company lose less money, but now that inventories are low it’s going to likely have a down quarter as it rebuilds.
Honda Is Doing Better Than Fine, Thank You For Noticing
While the yen may be going back up after a little BOJ intervention, Japanese exporters are still in a great position to grab profits. Honda, in particular, had its most profitable quarter ever as people continued to buy the company’s hybrid vehicles.
Overall, Honda thinks it’ll sell about 1 million hybrids in 2024, one of which they sold to me. So I get it.
Profit in the April-June quarter rose 23 percent to 485 billion yen ($3.3 billion), thanks to steady demand for cars in the U.S. and strong two-wheeler sales in India and Brazil, Honda said Aug. 7.
The company also cited a weak yen as a reason for its strong results. The automaker kept its outlook unchanged at 1.42 trillion yen.
China remains a challenge for Honda, though strong sales in the United States are keeping the company’s exports above water in the first half of the year.
Ghosn: The Honda-Nissan-Mitsubishi Deal Is A ‘Disguised Takeover’
Fugitive ex-Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi CEO Carlos Ghosn has crawled out of his transport box and climbed onto his soap box in order to decry the news that Honda, Nissan, and Mitsubishi are entering into a big joint venture to try to prep for a future of software-defined vehicles and electric cars.
Hans Greimel spoke with Ghosn and here’s what the man himself had to say:
Ever since rebalancing the alliance with Renault last year to gain independence, Nissan has resembled a company “trying to find a savior,” Ghosn said. “Signing an agreement with Honda looks like an initiative of trying to turn attention away from the miserable results.”
Ghosn was once Nissan’s savior and you can sense a little saltiness in this statement given that a small cabal of Nissan employees conspired to have him tossed in jail. He added:
“I can’t imagine for one moment how it’s going to work between Honda and Nissan unless it’s a takeover, unless it’s a disguised takeover by Honda of Nissan and Mitsubishi with Honda in the driver’s seat,” Ghosn said. “It’s going to be a takeover, a disguised takeover.”
Does Carlos Ghosn read TMD? If he does, holler at yer boy. This is just a more conspiratorial take on what I said last week, which is that Honda should just take over Nissan and Mitsubishi to make one company:
A consolidated Nissan and Honda bring engineering and manufacturing scale without the huge culture clash. I also don’t think their products are so similar that they can’t work in concert. Nissan/Mitsubishi have a truck competency that Honda lacks whereas Honda is way better at building hybrids.
I say do it!
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
I have sensed some friction in the comments over The Last Dinner Party which, admittedly, has such a cohesive schtick that it can sometimes feel a touch pastiche. I say: who cares? It’s a good schtick and they rock. This cover of Blondie’s “Call Me” for Like A Version is great.
The Big Question
How much more is a used sports car/sedan/supercar with a manual worth to you than an identical car with an automatic transmission?
When I was looking for my GTO last year, I only wanted a manual. The 2004-06 GTOs were majority manual. I could have had my choice of automatic, but a good manual was both harder to find and about 10-15% higher than the auto with equivalent milage and it absolutely was worth it to me.
How much MORE?? Ugh, this is going to suck.
“How much more is a used sports car/sedan/supercar with a manual worth to you than an identical car with an automatic transmission?”
Depends on the vehicle in question.
If it’s a Ferrari from the 2000s, I would pay for one with the manual. And it would be “no sale” for one with that stupid F1 transmission.
Same deal with the 2012+ Ford Focus… with the manual, there would a sale. With the ‘PowerShit’ automatic… No Sale.
So for these two examples, I suppose you could say I would pay “infinitely” more.
And for a Honda Fit? I’d say it’s worth paying up to 50% more to get the manual Fit over an automatic Fit.
However, if the comparison is between a hybrid like a Prius vs a manual Honda Fit (because I was looking for a daily driver), then it would go the other way… I would pay a little more for the Prius because it’s such a durable/reliable vehicle with better fuel economy even if it’s less fun to drive.
I might pay as much as $1-2k premium for manual.
aside from being more fun, i believe that manual transmissions are safer:
1- better understanding of traction. roads terribly slippy in winter here, MT not gonna mess me up by shifting gears when tires lose traction and put me in a snowbank. i can start rolling MT in 2nd or 3rd gear if icy. also, engine braking more practicable with MT.
2- easier to control my speed..e.g. 2nd gear in school zone only gonna go 25mph without me noticing engine revs.
3- i’m more engaged in driving…am i in the right gear for conditions (speed limit, traffic, road surface quality, visibility, etc.)?
I don’t need a manual in land yachts or other comfy cruiser-type or HD work vehicles, but anything with any degree of sporting nature or with low power is manual or a no-go for me. The automatics might as well not exist unless maybe if we’re talking something old with good parts availability that can be swapped without too much pain.
Although I make exceptions for cool cars that only came in auto, I’d take a bump in price paying more for a manual version because it would be more fun for me. Or at least with my winter car and just about any econobox imo…less boring to drive.
I would happily pay double for a manual over an automatic. Honestly I probably would just find a different model car to buy if I couldn’t get a manual one.
The only automatic car that has seriously tempted me is the mid 2000s Jag XJ and XK, because they are seriously cheap for their performance and can be had in Aluminum body so I don’t have to worry about rust.
Yes!
Manuals are more fun. Full stop. In a digital world where you have to wait for things to sync, grabbing a gear is absolute heaven. My son and I converted a 1972 Puch moped to Electric…but with a 5 speed bike hub as a transmission. So it’s manual shift/electric. Helps it scoot, then go faster. Eventually someone will figure out gears can help an EV be more efficient and thus have a lighter, smaller battery pack. I just wish they would make it a manual shift instead of using “algorithms”.
Hard to say how much “more” I would value a manual when I wouldn’t even consider buying a car with a slushbox.
Honda, quit pissing around with Nissan and get the Prelude into your stores already. You do you and them fail their fail.
I’m just here to say the 550 Maranello (see “manual Ferraris” link) has always been at the top of my wish list since its introduction. Unfortunately, but appropriately, it’s now beyond my means unless I want to eat cat food in ten years. I’ve seen quite a few, and they look magnitudes better live.
Upcharge for a “standard”? I guess if that’s the world now then flip it to be about what the upcharge used to be for an automatic, think it used be about $1000? I feel like that’s what it should be.
I remember it around $1000, but that was a long time ago. Probably $3000 today dollars.
What? Dinner Party couldn’t find a female drummer? They need to go talk to Zepparella, the world’s second best cover band. Clementine freaking rocks the drums.
Broken Peach being the world’s best cover band.
Obviously the majority of automakers that serve the lazy American air conditioned public have determined that there’s more money to be made with smooth driving automatics or they would still be offering them..
Yes they have gotten way better and can be tuned for performance / economy but in our families eyes no fun.
We have three manual transmission cars/ trucks in our fleet of 5 vehicles.The losers end up taking the slush boxes if they are the last two out the door in the morning.
It’s fun competition and we all agreed on the rules a year ago.
First out the door gets first choice unless someone really needs one of the trucks for work.
We have 2 manuals, one auto pickup and one auto hand-me-down car from Grandma. My children drive manuals and I’ve taught their friends too.
It’s a fuel economy thing. The autos can be completely synched with the engine management to deliver the best fuel economy. Whether that’s just for the tests or also in real life is a question.
“But they’re slower!” screamed every ignorant product manager at every car company in the world, missing the point completely.
Yes, I’m still salty about that Alpine engineer. 😛
Engineers tend to be plagued with a certain kind of stupidity. They will see only the numbers and decide wholly on that. Other times, they will make up a specification and demand it without understanding that their specification may be pointless. As a chemist, trying to get mechanical engineers to understand chemical specifications is often brutal, especially the engineers who think that they can’t be wrong.
But we can’t be wrong… 😉
Yeah that’s never happened.
I don’t begrudge anyone else their choice of automatics, but for me, it’s a total deal breaker on a sports car, or any vehicle I’d buy for driving pleasure. So, to me, it’s worth whatever markup I can afford, or a bump down in class/performance. I’ll get a manual sports car for the price of an automatic supercar, a manual sports sedan for the price of an automatic sports car, a manual hot hatch for the price of an automatic sports sedan and so on and so forth until I can’t keep up with traffic. If the best manual I can afford is a base Yaris, so be it.
My thing about a manual is that, in traffic, it’s by far and away the most engaging thing about a car. When I’m on a 4-lane stroad keeping a respectful distance from the car in front as we slowly roll up to a red light, I’m not playing with power, handling, braking performance, tire grip, steering feedback or exhaust noise. Between dotted white lines, the only thing I can do safely is shift.
I’d honestly be more open to a slushbox track car than a flappy-paddle commuter, because on track I can challenge myself with handling and speed instead. I’d be ecstatic to enter LeMons or ChumpCar with an automatic something-or-other if that’s what’s available. I’d prefer a manual, but it’s not necessary in that case.
I like your take and as a parson that exclusively drives manuals, I’d consider the right automatic on the autocross course.
I assume we’re talking classic/collectible cars here, since you mentioned Monterey? It’s an easy formula: Average asking price of a manual example minus conversion cost to swap from automatic to manual minus five percent for making me drive it home with an automatic equals offering price.
I have been debating about a more fuel efficient and fun car for a daily that is stick shift and if it is not a stick shift I most likely will just go electric for quick straight line speed. So yeah if I am looking for something sporty and fun I will look at getting a manual if it doesn’t have one it wouldn’t be worth much to me. Besides maybe if it is a classic car but even my Firebird I have converted to a 6 speed manual from an auto when every one was telling me I should just stick with an auto but I just didn’t see the fun in that my car isn’t built to be a drag car. If I were to track it I rather build it for handling.
I think a lot of people don’t remember how bad the transition was between conventional hydraulic transmissions and the hyper sports transmissions like DCT’s was. I remember when the E46 M3 and Lamborghini had SMG’s which were essentially a racecar auto for the street in the sense that it slammed every single gear. There was no soft shift, just on or off. That pushed a lot of people who thought they wanted an auto into the manual transmission and made them much more desirable.
I have to interject on behalf of the E46 M3 SMG. They don’t have to slam every gear if you don’t want them to. They require you to drive it like a manual transmission ie lifting the throttle between shifts because they essentially are a manual transmission. It’s just the computer that does the shifting/clutch engagement. When they first came out, they got the reputation of crude clunky shifts because people thought “hey, it’s an automatic so I can drive it like one”. Once the learning curve is over, you find that it drives just fine. When we first got our M3 SMG, I looked into having it converted to 6mt but after awhile, I’ve come to enjoy it. I can pin the throttle and shift without letting up if I want but while driving around town, it still requires my involvement to drive smoothly, just like all my other manual cars.
Manuals are the norm for small, cheap ICE cars here. Automatics are rare in this part of the market.
Automatics are complex and expensive compared to manuals. Of course small, cheap cars aren’t offered with them.
For example, from what I can find, the Dacia Sandero is not available with anything but a manual in its lowest trim. Why would it? If you buy a Dacia, you want something cheap and reliable. Both are not attributes that you would find in an automatic.
And I think still most Europeans can drive cars. I mean, real ones. With a gearbox. That you need to use. Yourself.
Manuals are dumb. There I’ve said it.
I’m glad options exist, and I certainly have driven and can drive stick. It doesn’t add pleasure for me, and so I drive other options.
Unironically the most fun I’ve ever had driving any machine is in a sector almost exclusively using CVTs. Snowmobiles.
Manuals are cheaper and more reliable. You don’t want them for the fun, you want them for the simplicity and cheapness.
Speak for yourself. 😛
Well, not you, personally. I mean people in general. ICE cars are sold with manuals because they are cheap and reliable. People that want cheap reliable ICE cars are not interested in paying extra for an automatic (which is more complex, hence more expensive and less reliable), and that is why cheap ICE cars don’t usually come with the option, and if they do, it’s a hefty surcharge.
Manuals are only as ‘reliable’ as the worst driver to use the car. So unless you live alone and never let anyone else touch your baby, I’m willing to bet the average manual owner has more frequent transmission maintenance and costs than automatic. I agree that on the lowest end of the market, where like with bikes, overbuilt heftier (relative to power demands) are common, manuals make a lot of sense. They can be cheaper. They can be more reliable.
Also deferred vs upfront costs. People are much less cognizant of deferred costs like transmission maintenance, and the actual costs of more frequent cheaper maintenance (as long as you don’t burn through clutches) is often not much different than less frequent more expensive maintenance.
I have been driving cars, mostly manuals, for several decades. Older ones, newer ones, ones with clear driver histories and ones with questionable driver histories. Cars with few kilometres and with many.
Not once in all those decades have I had a problem with a transmission. Clutches, maybe. Those are consumable items, after all, like brakes. But transmissions? Never a problem.
You’re entitled to your opinion. Given how bad of an opinion it is, however, I will be choosing to ignore it.
The most fun automatic vehicle I’ve drive was a CTV Nissan Cube. That transmission was fun with how you could play with the torque, engaging in a very different type of way.
Seeing as it’s a Nissan CVT, I’d imagine it promptly blew up and the bill to repair it probably took away any joy you got from it (though I’ve heard that people who meticulously maintain them can get a lot of mileage from them.)
There’s been a few times in my life where I knew the end of the world was coming. The most vivid was when I climbed into a jeep wrangler and saw it was automatic. This was about 1990. I wonder what percent are manual now.
Watched a little of the video. Meh. Not as good as the original, so fail. Is she supposed to be singing off-tune?
Try some Post-Modern Jukebox for new (and oftentimes better) interpretations of old songs.
“How much more is a used sports car/sedan/supercar with a manual worth to you than an identical car with an automatic transmission?”
I see a real premium, (often 20% or more) on a used Miata with a manual vs. automatic. My challenge with a manual is that I’m the only driver in the household that can drive one. My middle son wants to learn though, so I do plan to teach him soon.
I drove an Astra manual as my daily for 7 years and it was annoying at times that the wife couldn’t drive it. Now I keep a manual as an extra “fun car”, though I’ve barely driven anything other than the Miata since getting it about a month ago. None of our daily drivers are available as manuals anymore. That’s a shame. Even my econobox Astra was engaging and fun as a manual transmission.
Wife couldn’t learn stick?
Couldn’t or wouldn’t. Lol. It’s tough to teach a spouse. I think we need a program where spouses trade and train other people’s spouses. She said she would learn when I was buying the Astra. She did a few lessons with me and gave up quickly.
Took me 10 years to finally get my wife to drive a manual. Now she insists on a third pedal.
There’s hope!
You have to buy something she wants to drive with a manual. It’s easier if it’s a daily driver. Hurry, there really aren’t many options left out there.
I have no interest in an automatic right now—but it’s all about use-case: my knees don’t twinge much (yet), and I have a work van. Plus, our little burg doesn’t have much real traffic.
Now, if a decent XJ came up for sale with an automatic I wouldn’t spurn it because it lacked the 3rd pedal