It’s an unfortunate fact of life that reality is occasionally cruel. Sometimes the poster car is met with a litany of caveats, a rift between in-period legend and actual experience. Sometimes the less obvious choice is pleasantly surprising, meeting or even exceeding the high praise it warranted when it was new. Consider this be a tale of two sports cars, the iconic Honda S2000 and the somewhat unloved Mazda RX-8.
Let me preface this by saying I respect the hell out of the Honda S2000. As an engineering exercise, especially from a brand that hadn’t built a front-engined rear-wheel-drive sports car in decades, it resulted in some astonishing figures and electrifying force when you really had the hammer down. However, the other 80 percent of the time, I’ve found every example I’ve driven to be asleep at the wheel.
It starts with the early two-liter engine known for its prodigal redline and occasionally clowned-upon torque output of 153 lb.-ft. What people seem to forget is that it didn’t make peak torque until an enormous 7,500 rpm. The later 2.2-liter F22C engine attempted to rectify this, but it didn’t quite go far enough. While an increase of nine lb.-ft. is appreciable, the torque peak only dropped to 6,800 rpm, and fuel cut fell from 9,000 rpm to a comparatively modest 8,200 rpm. As a result, no matter which S2000 variant you choose, all their powertrains are underwhelming unless you’re absolutely on it.
However, power delivery is only one facet of a sports car. After all, the Mazda MX-5 is the best-selling sports car of all time, and nobody would accuse it of being all ate up with motor. A proper sports car has to indulge your senses, and while the S2000 has a sublime shifter and that wind-in-your-hair appeal, it doesn’t talk to your fingertips. The dialogue between the contact patches of the front tires and the driver’s hands is part of what makes a sports car trustworthy and engaging, but the electric power steering in the S2000 does its best to lock that out, with little feedback making its way through the steering wheel. As a result, it’s a car you drive more reactively than you would a Miata or a Porsche Boxster, finding yourself more frequently on the far side of the tires’ optimal grip peak.
This is a little less optimal in AP1 models, as they developed a bit of a reputation for bumpsteer due in part to the toe curves of the rear suspension. This characteristic was improved on the later AP2 cars, but it’s still incredibly easy to see why so many of these roadsters end up with questionable Carfax reports. For those who’ve never been on track or taken a car control course, the combination of twitchy limit handling and quite uncommunicative steering could be quite nasty.
Then there’s the fact that the driving position isn’t quite spot-on. I’m 5’10”-ish tall with a 30-inch inseam, which is pretty damn average for a man. Despite this, I sit weirdly high in an S2000, and the reach to the fixed steering wheel isn’t ideal. The end result is a sports car that’s excessively singular, a weapon when you’re on it, curiously aloof when you’re not, and one that doesn’t exactly make the best learning tool in the world. Happily, there is a Japanese sports car from the 2000s that offers a sky-high redline while making up for some of the traits the S2000 lacks. The weird part is, a lot of people seem to hate it.
I’m talking about the Mazda RX-8. Sure, it might not be a convertible, but on the surface, it seems to feature several things that made the S2000 an instant icon. The six-port Renesis two-rotor engine in early manual models revs to that legendary 9,000 rpm mark, and although it might be down six horsepower over an F20C-powered S2000, it makes six more lb.-ft. of torque at a comparatively more reasonable 5,500 rpm. Add in a similarly bolt-action shifter, and the result is a much more accessible power band than in the S2000.
According to Honda, the curb weight of a 2004 S2000 — the more common AP2 model — clocks in 2,835 pounds. This means it actually weighs about the same as a period Porsche Boxster, which totes around two extra cylinders, an extra trunk, and almost eight inches more length. Comparatively, a 3,029-pound 2004 RX-8 isn’t preposterously heavier, especially when you think of how much extra car it comes with. Rear seats, two extra half-doors, a better sound system, a metal roof, larger alloy wheels that you can stuff bigger brakes behind, you know the drill.
Crucially, the RX-8 doesn’t feel 194 pounds heavier than an S2000, partly because it’s heavily related to the third-generation MX-5, partly because it, like the S2000, is front-mid-engined, and partly because it actually talks to you like you’re hoping it will. Despite also sporting electric power steering, Mazda’s hardware and calibration gives the driver of an RX-8 a brilliant feel for what’s going on, from effort building naturally with load to better feedback of camber changes in the road.
I’ve been lucky enough to drive several RX-8s including Mazda’s own heritage fleet 2010 Touring model, and they’re all instantly joyous. The driving position is excellent, the engine is revvy yet surprisingly tractable, the chassis breathes with the road, and while the car’s eager to rotate, the steering gives you a ton of warning before the rear tires actually let go. As a result, the S2000 is engaging on some drives, when the traffic’s a whisper and the roads turn curvy and you can really wind the powertrain out, but the RX-8 is engaging on every drive, even if you’re just running out for takeout.
Now of course, we have to mention the elephant in the room, Renesis reliability. Sure, a loved RX-8 will require an engine rebuild at some point, and you will have to put up with rotary engine peculiarities such as oil consumption and not wanting to shut the engine off when cold for fear of flooding the engine, and the big end result is extra car and attention and needing to keep a few grand in the bank for the inevitable rebuild. However, compared to a nice S2000, a nice RX-8 is cheap. Cheap enough to easily make up the difference of one, possibly even two rotary engine rebuilds. Looking on Bring A Trailer, the price range of nice S2000s is between $20,000 and $35,000, while a solid-looking RX-8 will run you between $6,000 and $15,000.
So, if you want an engaging, communicative Japanese sports car that revs to 9,000 rpm, give the Mazda RX-8 a try. It might not have a legendary reputation, but it genuinely feels legendary. Worth trading the wind-in-your-hair feel for? In my eyes, absolutely.
Top graphic images: Honda; Mazda; depositphotos.com
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My mother always wanted the latest “cool” car. A 1995 Eclipse, a New Beetle, a new Mini. So, she had to have a brand-new S2000, an AP1 in black.
She drove it around like a grandma, shifting at 3k or maybe 4k like it was a normal car. She just wanted a nice convertible.
She let me drive it, and I ran it up to 9,000 rpm. She screamed at me, “WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?” What a waste of a cool car.
My mother has always lusted over my S2000. She convinced me to let her drive it to work a couple days while I was borrowing her CRV to move the family around while we visited. I could never convince her to drive it the way its supposed to be driven 🙂 She is scared of high RPMs for some reason.
I’ve driven an RX-8 and was immediately converted. They are immensely fun, great-handling, and very practical. You do have to take special care of them, and as the article says, you kind of have to look at the engine as a wear item, so I understand why that might not be for everybody.
I had a friend in the AF that had one. I drove it once and thought it was an amazingly fun car to drive. Add in some of the reliability improvements that have been worked out over the last decade and I bet one would make a reasonable daily driver that would keep a grin on your face
I’ve always been curious about trying an RX-8. The only thing keeping me from it is that I a have an e36 M3, which on paper is a very similar car but with 100 ft-lbs more torque.
I can’t believe no one has mentioned this yet, but the RX-8 is an excellent candidate for LS swapping. The kit to do so is actually cheaper than any of the Miatas, and it will handle better than many Camaros. Clean ones with blown Rotaries are cheap, so at the end of the day, you’ll have a better handling, better looking, and more practical Camaro!
You could also just modify a Camaro, if handling is your goal. The rotary is the entire point of the car.
RX8 is lighter. Plus, I like the styling more
This is such a common swap that it has its own category for judging at the DGRR. Personally for me the whole point of an RX-8 is the perfect handling Mazda designed into it based on the performance characteristics of the Renesis engine.
Thank you for explaining why the lovely looking S2000 are always looping out at the local autocross. It now makes much more sense. When they start to slide, if they get past a certain angle they end up in a spin with most drivers.
The earliest year S2000s were the most snappy. The limits were high, but once you passed them you were probably already off the road. Honda wisely decided this probably isn’t good for a car normal people could buy, so adjustments were made over the years to make it a little easier.
I bought my RX-8 new in November 2003. We had over twenty years and 117k miles of fun adventures together. Unfortunately there have been more and more age-appropriate problems like dried up seals and cracked plastics. When it became clear an engine rebuild (its first) was due, I decided to move on instead of letting it break my wallet and my heart.
I recognize I’m in the minority here, but I love how they look. It’s a great example of clean lines common in early 2000s cars. Which I preferred versus the overly busy styling in vogue today. Every time I walked up to my RX-8 it made me smile. I still smile when I see somebody else’s RX-8 on the road. Or better yet, hear it as it goes by.
I hate convertibles and love chassis feedback, so despite the glorious stupid engine the S2000 is not for me. Had it been a coupe maybe I could put up with dead steering. I loved my E86 Z4 Coupe despite it’s terrible steering feel. That 3.0 magnesium straight six was amazing.
The RX8 though. I have had two RX7s. You buy a Wankel with five grand in the bank for a rebuild. And for less than 5 grand more than an RX8 you can buy a GT86 that revs to 7500rpm and has the right number of doors for a coupe. Plus I can get high 40’s to the gallon instead of high teens.
Had the RX8 been as pretty as the FD RX7 I’d have bought one.
I know it’s possible to get better than EPA mileage, but it’s rated for 32 mpg. Find it hard to believe you can beat it by 50%
I believe the good Cap’n is using imperial gallons. They’re like regular gallons but they wear top hats and monocles.
We buy fuel in litres, but measure consumption in gallons, because this entire country is broken.
Cue the gallows meme, and an American is freaking out over their country being broken.
The Brit next to them: “First time?”
Yeah, your panic over having some guy declare himself king and then horribly abuse the power is like most of the last two thousand years here.
I was using UK gallons. Also while I can get 47mpg out of a tank my average is currently 34mpg.
Ugh. I want an RX8 so hard. But 19 mpg on premium with premix every tank. So I did the practical thing and bought a MAZDASPEED6 big bro for my NB1 Miata. I’ve rebuilt most of it and will be rebuilding the rest of it (engine) soon. Figure I’ll be 12Gs deep on a car worth half that that I’m certain I will only enjoy half as much as an RX8. Mazda, you bastards!
“the big end result is extra car and attention and needing to keep a few grand in the bank for the inevitable rebuild.”
Hmmm, that sounds prudent. So, if you own an RX-8, you need to pay extra attention (and money) and have an extra car.
I thought rotarys have telltale signs of rebuild needs? I don’t think they just die like a Jaguar, BMW, or Tesla, do they? From what I understand there are signs of seals going out (higher fuel costs …which to your point are in the high teens) but they have some pre-planning to a major repair. As a lifelong Hondafanboi, the cheaper the S2000 the more you are likely in for repairs that may include the motor. I also picked up a NC PRHT for 60% the price of a S2000 in ’15 with both 28k miles. ’07 and ’03 models. I do have to say I loved the hell out of that boring Accord spec S2000 I was looking at with it’s refrigerator white exterior and tan interior (only year of AP1 with that combo).
Anyway , the RX-8 is an excellent option if you have $13-15k to spend on a RWD sports car that can hold 4 and spend at least 20ish minutes travelling so you can warm it up and give it some revs. An S2000 at that same price needs something and likely already had something done to it that makes one hesitate in the first place.
I do think that rotaries die slowly, so you at least get some warning. It seems like the people who claim they just blow up out of nowhere weren’t paying attention to the warning signs, and maybe even could’ve prolonged the life of the engine.
Can confirm. Wankels are also good for aircraft applications because they fail gradually rather than all at once.
There is a reason that the Rotary has a three sided rotor. It’s all about the power of three:
The rotary has the reliability of a 1.3l engine, the power of a 2.6l engine and the fuel consumption of a 3.9l engine.
I still want one, especially since my new Autopian T shirt has one on it!
Rotary is a fun science fair project or toy if you’re wealthy enough to not care about maintenance and reliability. I always liked the RX8 conceptually but… no. Now if they refreshed it with Mazdas current styling language and powered it with their I-6 they might have something interesting. TBH I live in a relatively affluent (but smart) area and I don’t recall seeing an RX-8 on the street in years.
Affluent and smart don’t always mean car culture people. At least the ones in your ‘hood as you’ve described. The RX-8 is practically 15 years old+ at this point and doesn’t have the cult following of Porsche for that type of neighborhood.
The model you are after is more a MX given you don’t want a rotary power train. R in the RX acronym always means rotary for those unfamiliar. I was surprised Mazda didn’t offer a 2.3/2.5 MZR edition of the RX-8 platform to improve sales and offer a base model and eat up those not wanting a V6 Mustarg.
Agree on the last sentence!
I think you’re probably being a little unfair on the S2000, but you’re right on the money about the RX-8.
Had a friend with an RX-8 and what a sweet car that was. Handling was sublime, steering may as well have been hydraulic (fooled me), and the engine had no right being that special in a car like this. Smooth, buttery, and linear power delivery up to 9k with an amazingly unique sound to go along.
Having said that, you can all guess what happened to it. He now drives an ND…
Having never driven either of them I never really felt much draw to the S2000.. like, yeah, 9k redline is neat to say but that’s about it. The RX8 has a rotary which is worth more cool points (to me) but I’ve literally never heard a good word about a Renesis motor.
Think of rotary’s as though you were flying a plane. There is a checklist of do and don’t items you must follow.
The S2000 is like the current MX-5. It was never a numbers car. It isn’t that comfortable of a car (and I was an ND2 owner for years). It’s a car built around your feelings and how the car feels. The sensations of 9,000 rpms. The sound, the buzz of the wheel and the shifter, and the thrill knowing that the engine can keep taking more thrashing. We are surrounded by a country filled with grayscale blobbish CUVs that never go above 2,500 rpms and a sharp corner causes instant freak out. The S2000, and the Elise/Exige, and now the ND3 MX-5 say f*** all of that, grab them by the scruff, and beat them up. All of those cars are an easy car to love, but sometimes a tough car to like (if that makes sense) because of all of the compromises they make to keep them light and handle like on rails. And I hope Mazda continues to find a way to keep the MX-5 going for future generations.
While nobody talks about the S2000 without mentioning the redline, there is genuinely a lot more to it. It’s a very basic car, but in my opinion that’s what makes it ‘special.’ The seats aren’t heated. There are no displays. There are only a few buttons and knobs to manipulate. Comfort is an afterthought. It only exists to drive near readline around curves.
I don’t think many younger drivers will really appreciate it. It was pretty anemic (especially low RPM) when it was in production. Nowadays it’s even slower relative to what’s available, and doesn’t have any of the features people expect from their four-wheeled appliance.
It’s a fun car, though.
Oh, I’ve been tempted by the call of the RX-8 sooo many times. Every time I get that new product itch, it’s time for an RX-8, I say. Then I go and actually try to find one. And literally all of them have significant motor issues. Unless someone rebuilt that spinning corn chip recently, the juice is not worth the squeeze. As rebuilding a Reny is actually kinda oddly expensive. Seriously, no-one ever sells unless it stops hot starting. As they’re not worth much, but also can’t easily replace. So, everyone waits till the apex seal is more of a window. Those sweet 7k RX-8s are going to be a real slow 17k car all said and done.
And S2Ks are overpriced. If you refuse to accept Miata as the answer. And refuse anything that doesn’t come from the land of the rising son. A SR20 Swapped and/or JDM S14 is honestly probably the way to go. There’s a lot of them around, and the prices are coming down
Rebuilding a Renesis is still way less expensive than rebuilding an S2000 motor. There are a number of reputable shops that specialize in rotary rebuilds.
Possibly true, but I’m casting doubt on it being cheaper in the long run 🙂
I have never driven an S2000, so I cannot compare the two. However, I do daily drive and RX-8. It is sublime and the best chassis I have ever driven in my life. It feels planted and inspires confidence. I took it to Tail of the Dragon and all of the surrounding roads last year and it was absolutely amazing. The steering still has feel, the engine revs to infinity, and you can fit four adults in a pinch.
Now, yes, they have a rotary. As much as Mazda has tried, the rotary just does not work as a mass market engine. I say this as someone who has had at least one rotary in my possession for the last 25 years. If you know all of the tips and tricks and can follow them like a disciple of Kenichi Yamamoto, you can have a long and happy life with your rotary engine. Anecdotally, through 25 years and 200k miles across three cars, I’ve only killed one engine. And that was because I let that car sit for ten years and the coolant seal wall corroded away. But they aren’t for everyone, especially someone who wants to do zero maintenance.
Also, if you can find one cheap with a blown engine, these engines are not all that hard to rebuild. There’s lots of careful measuring and it’s tedious, but anyone who has torn apart a piston engine (or even not) can rebuild a rotary.
Go buy an RX-8.
Yes, the RX-8 talks to you.
“I am about to break and best of luck finding someone who can fix me.”
that wind you hear outside is definitely saying “apex seals.” It’s not your imagination. It’s a premonition from the ether.
I think these are cool cars for a very specific type of person. As folks are mentioning, the running costs are very high. Much higher than an S2000 or Miata of your choice. The fact that they’re really weird looking doesn’t help their case either. I’ve seen many in person and up close and something about it just doesn’t look right to me. It’s kind of a bulbous microcosm of every tooner trend from the 2000s.
Which again…is great for a very specific buyer. The other elephant in the room is that the fuel economy is absolutely putrid. I’ve heard that when you wind these out as god intended you’ll be getting low teens. Maybe that matters to you, maybe it doesn’t. I’d imagine most people don’t care, but it’s something to factor in to the ownership costs.
And again, that’s the rub on these. If you’re mechanically inclined, are nostalgic for the early Fast movies, and don’t mind the compromises then I do think they probably make for fun weekend cars…but count me among the folks that would rather have a toy that’s more carefree to own.
Once again, a Miata is the answer. Or…for the amount of resources it’ll take to keep an RX8 alive I’d rather roll the dice on a sketchy Boxster.
MPG on the S2000 isnt great either. i manage about 19 combined.
I average 18 mpg in my RX-8.
I do think the S2000 has aged much, much better than the RX-8 and most other cars from the period.
I also understand that as an owner, I may be biased.
I still think it’s a great looking car.
The S2000 has some very 2000s styling cues but it more or less just looks like an angry Miata and as a result it has traditional roadster proportions. I certainly don’t think the design is anything remarkable but it looks just fine in 2025 which is more than I can say about the RX8…which is entirely a “time and place” car with its design.
Lol my nephew is saving up for a Miata, like a real high school kid should, and mentioned the RX-8. I let him know why they were cheap, not that he was considering one anyways. But just to make sure. He is planning on making a great decision, DON’T EFF IT UP BOY!
My son bought an NC Miata which is basically the same suspension as the RX-8. It’s been a blast and is very reliable, even with a teen driver. He loves the car and occasionally lets Dad drive it.
They also share the same 6-spd manual.
Yeah, it’s basically the same chassis but shorter. There is a kit to put a modern Camaro V6 into the RX8, but it’s expensive. Still, 300hp and 21x the MPG is a pretty fun deal.
I’ve kind of had the same thought before, but I also loved the RX-8 since it first came out.
Also, it might have some reliability issues in the context of a daily driver, but at this point, it’s more likely to be a weekend toy (like the S2000), and any premature wear should come much more slowly.
It’s not just the horrible rotary (as redundant as that is), they also rusted like they were made in the ’70s in a factory undergoing constant worker strikes, hence why I’ve only seen one in quite a lot of years and I think that one is a lawn ornament as it doesn’t seem to move. It’s also ugly, a particular letdown considering how beautiful the last RX7 was. Is the steering better than the 3? I bought the 3 (also a rust-prone POS) because it was reviewed as being a driver’s car with great steering feel, but only if compared to a Corolla. TBF, though, there really wasn’t much else in that market, so it’s not like I had a lot of options. The S2000 has always been overrated, but I hate high hp/low torque engines, so neither are for me.
You were so close, it’s the NC2 Miata that is basically the RX-8 minus 500+ lbs, and it has the droptop, a reliable engine, and hydraulic steering.
This was what I was thinking. Aside from the rear seats, the NC is everything people love about the RX-8 without all the things people hate about the RX-8.
I still want to own an RX-8 at some point, RX-7s being mostly unobtanium for me and s2000s doubly so. If anyone here has played the tokyo xtreme racer reboot on steam, that car gives people nightmares in the form of gloomy angel.
I think there’s a lot of sense in this, the RX8 is always acknowledged as having a fantastic chassis, it’s just saddled with the worst rotary engine since the 70s unfortunately.
That being said some easy reliability mods and attentive maintenance and you can actually have a pretty reliable little car. For a rotary treat the maintenance like you would an Italian exotic (ie before you reach the milage and frequent) and you’ll generally be ok or get warning signs of impending doom and the rebuild will be much less expensive!
I really like Mazdas. I own a competitor to the S2000 (an MX-5). I can’t wrap my head around the RX-8. I think every generation of RX-7 was beautiful, but I find the RX-8 ungainly looking. Also, a big reason for my purchase of an MX-5 is that it was cheap to operate and gets pretty good fuel economy. I think the same applies to the S2000. Not sure it applies to an RX-8.
I submit the the 944/968 may be a closer approximation of the car that everyone wants the S2000 to be.
And amazingly enough – you can get a 968 Cabriolet with well under 100K miles in the 25-35K range.
YUP! They’re still a bargain by Parsh standards, and they won’t be for long. I love 968s in particular, for some reason the wonky 928/944 hybrid styling just tickles me the right way.
And if I recall correctly, the 968 also had the largest and most powerful 4 cylinder engines of it’s time – I don’t believe there’s been a larger one since.
My father had a MX-5. It was a lot of fun to drive around. It wasn’t as fast or powerful as my S2000 (which I liked to poke at him for), but it wasn’t any less fun.
I agree the RX-8 just doesn’t look good. I think it’s the bubbly styling that was popular at the time. I definitely used to think they look good.
S2000 still looks good, I think…
I had an RX-8 for a few years. Super-duper fun car to drive, as long as you’re not stressing over apex seals. As Thomas noted, they’re very comfortable. Even the back seat isn’t too bad, albeit slightly claustrophobia-inducing.
One of the great joys of that car is that it’s best to take it to redline each time you drive it in order to keep the engine healthy. “Sorry, officer, but I had to do that to keep my engine reliable!”
Eventually, though, got to the point where I was stressing more over apex seals than I was enjoying the car. I sold it and bought a Z32 300ZX, which I loved dearly.
How quick does the motor get to operating temperature? I got a short commute…
From Experience with my RX7, water temps are usually up in about 5 minutes (which is where the flooding risk comes from) but oil temps take about 20 minutes to fully rise and you need to do that a bit for engine longevity too
But when are you not stressing over apex seals?