It’s an unfortunate fact of life that reality is occasionally cruel. Sometimes the poster car is met with a litany of caveats, a rift between in-period legend and actual experience. Sometimes the less obvious choice is pleasantly surprising, meeting or even exceeding the high praise it warranted when it was new. Consider this be a tale of two sports cars, the iconic Honda S2000 and the somewhat unloved Mazda RX-8.
Let me preface this by saying I respect the hell out of the Honda S2000. As an engineering exercise, especially from a brand that hadn’t built a front-engined rear-wheel-drive sports car in decades, it resulted in some astonishing figures and electrifying force when you really had the hammer down. However, the other 80 percent of the time, I’ve found every example I’ve driven to be asleep at the wheel.
It starts with the early two-liter engine known for its prodigal redline and occasionally clowned-upon torque output of 153 lb.-ft. What people seem to forget is that it didn’t make peak torque until an enormous 7,500 rpm. The later 2.2-liter F22C engine attempted to rectify this, but it didn’t quite go far enough. While an increase of nine lb.-ft. is appreciable, the torque peak only dropped to 6,800 rpm, and fuel cut fell from 9,000 rpm to a comparatively modest 8,200 rpm. As a result, no matter which S2000 variant you choose, all their powertrains are underwhelming unless you’re absolutely on it.
However, power delivery is only one facet of a sports car. After all, the Mazda MX-5 is the best-selling sports car of all time, and nobody would accuse it of being all ate up with motor. A proper sports car has to indulge your senses, and while the S2000 has a sublime shifter and that wind-in-your-hair appeal, it doesn’t talk to your fingertips. The dialogue between the contact patches of the front tires and the driver’s hands is part of what makes a sports car trustworthy and engaging, but the electric power steering in the S2000 does its best to lock that out, with little feedback making its way through the steering wheel. As a result, it’s a car you drive more reactively than you would a Miata or a Porsche Boxster, finding yourself more frequently on the far side of the tires’ optimal grip peak.
This is a little less optimal in AP1 models, as they developed a bit of a reputation for bumpsteer due in part to the toe curves of the rear suspension. This characteristic was improved on the later AP2 cars, but it’s still incredibly easy to see why so many of these roadsters end up with questionable Carfax reports. For those who’ve never been on track or taken a car control course, the combination of twitchy limit handling and quite uncommunicative steering could be quite nasty.
Then there’s the fact that the driving position isn’t quite spot-on. I’m 5’10”-ish tall with a 30-inch inseam, which is pretty damn average for a man. Despite this, I sit weirdly high in an S2000, and the reach to the fixed steering wheel isn’t ideal. The end result is a sports car that’s excessively singular, a weapon when you’re on it, curiously aloof when you’re not, and one that doesn’t exactly make the best learning tool in the world. Happily, there is a Japanese sports car from the 2000s that offers a sky-high redline while making up for some of the traits the S2000 lacks. The weird part is, a lot of people seem to hate it.
I’m talking about the Mazda RX-8. Sure, it might not be a convertible, but on the surface, it seems to feature several things that made the S2000 an instant icon. The six-port Renesis two-rotor engine in early manual models revs to that legendary 9,000 rpm mark, and although it might be down six horsepower over an F20C-powered S2000, it makes six more lb.-ft. of torque at a comparatively more reasonable 5,500 rpm. Add in a similarly bolt-action shifter, and the result is a much more accessible power band than in the S2000.
According to Honda, the curb weight of a 2004 S2000 — the more common AP2 model — clocks in 2,835 pounds. This means it actually weighs about the same as a period Porsche Boxster, which totes around two extra cylinders, an extra trunk, and almost eight inches more length. Comparatively, a 3,029-pound 2004 RX-8 isn’t preposterously heavier, especially when you think of how much extra car it comes with. Rear seats, two extra half-doors, a better sound system, a metal roof, larger alloy wheels that you can stuff bigger brakes behind, you know the drill.
Crucially, the RX-8 doesn’t feel 194 pounds heavier than an S2000, partly because it’s heavily related to the third-generation MX-5, partly because it, like the S2000, is front-mid-engined, and partly because it actually talks to you like you’re hoping it will. Despite also sporting electric power steering, Mazda’s hardware and calibration gives the driver of an RX-8 a brilliant feel for what’s going on, from effort building naturally with load to better feedback of camber changes in the road.
I’ve been lucky enough to drive several RX-8s including Mazda’s own heritage fleet 2010 Touring model, and they’re all instantly joyous. The driving position is excellent, the engine is revvy yet surprisingly tractable, the chassis breathes with the road, and while the car’s eager to rotate, the steering gives you a ton of warning before the rear tires actually let go. As a result, the S2000 is engaging on some drives, when the traffic’s a whisper and the roads turn curvy and you can really wind the powertrain out, but the RX-8 is engaging on every drive, even if you’re just running out for takeout.
Now of course, we have to mention the elephant in the room, Renesis reliability. Sure, a loved RX-8 will require an engine rebuild at some point, and you will have to put up with rotary engine peculiarities such as oil consumption and not wanting to shut the engine off when cold for fear of flooding the engine, and the big end result is extra car and attention and needing to keep a few grand in the bank for the inevitable rebuild. However, compared to a nice S2000, a nice RX-8 is cheap. Cheap enough to easily make up the difference of one, possibly even two rotary engine rebuilds. Looking on Bring A Trailer, the price range of nice S2000s is between $20,000 and $35,000, while a solid-looking RX-8 will run you between $6,000 and $15,000.
So, if you want an engaging, communicative Japanese sports car that revs to 9,000 rpm, give the Mazda RX-8 a try. It might not have a legendary reputation, but it genuinely feels legendary. Worth trading the wind-in-your-hair feel for? In my eyes, absolutely.
Top graphic images: Honda; Mazda; depositphotos.com
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TDIL that electric power steering was a thing as far back as the early aughts. I thought of it as much more recent development, driven by the efforts to squeeze out one more tenth of an mpg. Gone was the belt squeal pushing a little too far at full lock and replaced by a dimming of the headlights.
Neither of these cars work for me anymore, but you make a compelling case for the Mazda.
Well now I want an RX-8.
As this article makes clear, but still manages to miss, the RX-8 is one of the most misunderstood cars on the market, and for many reasons.
Saying “it burns oil” as if it’s a bad thing is silly. “A diesel engine doesn’t burn gas” is just as valid a complaint. It’s part of how the things works. It’s one of those tropey things people who aren’t that familiar with rotaries say about rotaries akin to “watch out of those apex seals!” or how every article that mentions a black hole is required to say “a black hole is so massive not even light can escape”.
That exact misunderstanding was a major contributor to the reliability issues as well. A decent enough percentage of people had a vague idea that the engine was special somehow, but would just stare at you blankly if you asked them why. These people roached engines in a hurry. They complained loudly, and dumped them. Then some kid with no money AND no sense would think “Ooh! Cheap sports car!” Kinda get it running, but only into the ground. Repeat ad infinitum.
That said, there absolutely were some intrinsic issues with the Series 1 (04-08) Renesis engines that caused them to not live as long as they should have. Mazda performed a MAJOR update to the engine for the Series 2 (09-11) such that there is almost no parts interchange (this goes beyond the engine as well). It goes beyond the usual major redesign even to where major things like oil filters are in completely different places (Series 1 is on top toward the rear, and Series 2 is bottom front). Series 2 engines are reported to easily hit 200K without needing major attention (I can only speak to about 85K personally).
Another common one I hear is about poor fuel economy. Looking at other roadsters, they seem to get around 30mpg. Compared to other GTs (the more apt comparison), I don’t think it comes up all that short. I get low-20s in my Series 2, with regular driving (which is pretty aggressive).
Back to the mass misunderstandings, even this article compares the RX-8 to an S2000. But the Miata is right there in the same breath, and the Miata is what should be compared to the S2000, and everything else in the class. The RX-8 is NOT a roadster. That same sort of logic led to it being a major letdown to a lot of people expecting a successor to the FD RX-7. It wasn’t intended to be another RX-7. That’s why they gave it a different name (there’s a whole book about this out there). The FD RX-7 was something like $70K when it went out of production, and the RX-8 came in at $40K. Different price tier. The FD had two seats (sorta four if spec’d as such in certain markets, but really just two), and the RX-8 has a very usable four. The FD is a straight up light weight sports car, the RX-8 is a GT with a lean in the sports direction (again refer to the book). The FD made big power, but the RX-8 was more about being smooth and linear. It goes on and on. Point being, it’s not an RX-7 and was never intended to be. To be appreciated, you have to see it for what it is (and it is excellent in that role)
What the RX-8 actually is, is a GT on the sporty side with Mazda’s famous understanding and execution of balance. The engine, transmission, and suspension are all excellent. It’s super fun to toss around, and also quite comfortable. One thing that surprised me tremendously was that I can get my whole family in it quite comfortably; that’s an admittedly short (5’6″) me, wife, and two kids in car seats (car seats take up more room than the people in them). We can also fit a decent amount of stuff in the trunk. If you discount the reliability of the engine, it’s still wrapped in a Mazda (sorta the opposite of a Cummins powered Dodge). It’s a lot of fun, while still being comfortable and practical.
I can confirm the roominess. My 2-series is more roomy, sure, but the RX-8 is surprisingly roomy. I’m 6’5″ and fit in just fine. I wish the steering wheel was telescopic, but it’s fine. It really is a fun little GT.
I forgot to mention up there that the suicide doors make getting kids in car seats super easy. One of the other cars in the stable is a JKU, and it’s easier to get the kids through the doors of the RX-8 than the Jeep.
I took my prom date back in high school to the dance in a RX8 and she had this HUGE poofy dress. It was probably the best part of that prom, watching her friend stuff that dress into the front seat of that car
Thank for giving these some love. I have always loved these cars and I still want to own one. Honestly I still regularly second guess getting my BRZ instead of an RX-8 and a second car…
Love my RX8– these are way underappreciated. I’ve owned it for 18 years and the biggest issues I’ve had with it are a cracked fuel pump and a cracked radiator- no rotary specific issues. Just loads of smiles and (sadly) a lot of 91 octane/nonsynthetic motor oil.
Counter point to both of those: why not a first gen Z4 with the 3.0?
Weight is similar (3000lbs), power is up, torque is up, and while you lose that high redline, the torque of the i6 comes at 3500rpm, making it fun at every speed. You also you to keep the wind on your hair fun.
I feel like those are being overlooked by enthusiasts for some reason despite everyone obsessing about E46 and their extra weight avec fragile rear chassis.
The brakes suck but beyond that, they are a great alternative to the overhyped S2000.
I found the z3 better, as the z4 steering wheel i tried loved to cut my hands. Sadly the last M clownshoe near me had a sunroof and the one i loved without a sunroof was 4 states away.
The Z3 suspension is a little subpar but I guess the hydraulic power steering can make up for it.
Hush up you two! I haven’t bought my Z3 yet
2004 RX8 was the first car I ever bought and I bought it new. Sure the AC was underpowered, the sun visors were terrible, water got into the taillight assemblies, the mileage wasn’t great, and it was a pain when I only needed to move it 10 feet on a cold engine & had to wait for it to get warm. Still, I loved driving it and still miss it. Nostalgia sure is a thing, isn’t it?
So… what’s the deal with a cold shutdown? I’ve not heard about that in the articles I’ve read about the RX-8.
As a kid, I had a poster a friend brought back from Germany of a Mercedes C 111 on “the wall” at the M-B test track. I have, so sadly, lost it over many moves since then, but I remember “Die besten Mercedes ideen und un Zukunftsidee” Or something like that. From the era when Mercedes, along with others, were intrigued by Wankel engines.
At age 12, I was so hot for a 300 SEL 6.3 when everyone else wanted a Pontiac GTO. I suppose I was fortunate to not get either one.
A V6 Camry or Accord (which I have) would dust either one of those, these days. Might be close with the top spec GTO.
But what a German nerd I was. I drooled over the NSU Ro 80 of that era as well. Just from its looks. When I read about those now, it was pretty advanced for its day.
A college classmate (mid-70s) had an Audi 100 his parents gave him and compared to the 68 Datsun 510 wagon I drove, it felt so sophisticated.
My Accord is very competent, not loaded up with (so far) unnecessary driver assist nannies, and will probably outlive me. My rentals, when I vacation, all come up short (latest… Chevy Mailibu/Dodge Charger). And I’m okay with all that.
Basically, it’s a combination of requiring more fuel enrichment when cold to start and run reliably, the spark plugs location in the housing where excess unevaporated fuel can build up on a cold shutdown causing wet plugs and misfires, and that unevaporated fuel also hurts cold compression by affecting the apex seal and housing interface. If you shut it down after just starting it, all that excess cold -start fuel doesn’t evaporate and burn, it just stays in the combustion chambers since it has nowhere else to go (unlike leaking down the cylinder walls and past the rings into the crankcase in a piston engine), so the next time you spin the engine that fuel from the previous time, plus a fresh dose from the current starting event, all get flung around wetting the spark plugs and hurting apex sealing.
While this can happen in a piston engine too, the extra enrichment, spark plug location, and lack of drainage really exacerbate this in a rotary
Thanks!
Let’s start with my 500 Abarth.
S2000, i just sit wrong in it. Like na miata is barely ok, while s2000 isnt.
Fun fact: Honda actually uses Mazda rear differentials for the S2000, and I believe the transmission is similar as well.
I’ve had two RX-8s. I bought a used 2004 in late 2005 with 36,000 miles on it. I had about 100k miles on it when I sold it to a friend, who had it for a few more years with no issues.
I picked up a 2008 40th Anniversary Edition last year with about 54,000 miles on it. It needed the auxiliary port valves cleaned and new coils – now it runs like a top and passed CA emissions with ease.
I had a 2000 Civic Si before this, so I know the dual personality of VTEC engines like the S2000 quite well. It was actually a lot of fun in the Civic as you could drive under 5,500 RPM when you had non-car-fan passengers or didn’t want to attract attention. But that behavior is less appealing in a roadster. I would still have an S2000 in my dream garage, but I think the Honda I’d really want is an EG hatch with a B16B swapped in.
I work from home now, and also have a 2010 Dodge Challenger R/T and a 1992 Mazda B2600i 4×4, so I’m unlikely rack up a ton of miles, but the RX-8 has become my default runabout as it’s fun to drive, easy to park, and everything I own get 16 mpg driving around on surface streets here in SoCal. Hilariously, though, my Challenger gets better highway mileage due to that TALL 0.50 6th gear.
My biggest complaints with the RX-8 are the tiny gas tank (RX-7s had tanks in th 18 gallon range, the RX-8s is like 15 gallons) and that it’s not a hatchback. The short range isn’t an issue on long trips – my wife wants to stop about that often anyway, and my bladder can barely handle the Challenger’s 450 mile range on the highway – but with all surface streets driving I have to actually fill the tank more than once a month. 😀
Rotaries burn oil, they’re designed to, and I put 4oz of two-stroke oil in every tank of gas for added protection. I check the oil after every other tank of gas. It’s really not a big deal but a lot of cars got their engines destroyed by treating it like a Corolla.
They used the same Mazda supplier/parts for the differential. The differential is not really seen in a positive way, though 🙂
The transmission was amazing, like many Honda manual transmissions, and was made by Honda. https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases/release-4a111fc377fd37d93a2f73004c34c870-honda-s2000-transmission
I’ve previously owned an EK Civic, Del Slow Si, and a D16Y8 CRX Si. Had another commuter 2001 Civic that I gave away at ~350k miles. A 5-speed CRV commuter.
Still own a B18 vtec-swapped CRX Si, bone stock S2000, CBR600RR, and an *inhales* CBR1000RR-R-RR Fireblade SP.
S2000 has been relegated to occasional weekend-car. Commuter is a Lexus LS460L. Older and a parent, CRV is likely in our future…
Kia used the same supplier. Specially the Kia Sportage 4×4’s diff with the 4.77 gears was an upgrade for the S2k and possibly some Mazdas. The s2K came with 4.10 from the factory, but you common swaps were 4..44, 4.56, 4.77 from various cars.
I daily drove a S2K with 4.77, cruising on the freeway at 80 was something ridiculous like 4500 RPM or so, but the car was a riot.
I have to disagree, but respectfully!
I bought an AP2 a long time ago. With 12k miles I got it for $27k, which probably isn’t possible anymore. The other consideration was a C5, Boxster, and I believe I saw at a couple high mile NSXes in a similar price range. The S2000 still sits in my garage almost 15 years later (a painful realization) with 40k miles.
A roommate previously had an RX-8. I always had an interest in them, but his trouble with it kind of soured my interest. It’s possible he didn’t maintain it as well as he should have, but he definitely didn’t neglect it. It was a fun drive, but I had forgotten it until reading this article.
The S2000 has the best manual shifter I’ve personally ever experienced. I thought the steering feedback was excellent despite being electric, and the vehicle I was commuting prior to the S2000 was a manual steering-racked CRX Si. Maybe the 2008 had some steering refinement? It is a bit gutless at lower RPMs, but when I’m driving for fun — I just avoid going to the gutless lower RPMs. Yes, it is a car that seems designed for a singular purpose, but I’ve always considered that to be one of the most charming things about it. It’s a ‘driver’s car.’ No fluff, no distractions. For better or worse, the S2000 still seems to get a bit of attention.
However, in the year 2025, I wouldn’t recommend buying one. There are definitely better options if you’re after the most fun for your dollar.
Complaining about a rotary burning oil is like complaining about a Cummins burning diesel. It’s SUPPOSED to burn oil. It’s a completely different kind of engine from the every day gasoline powered piston engine that’s in 99% of every other car on the road.
Here’s my breakdown of smallish aughts sports cars today:
• S2000 – now overpriced, mostly shines at the track, has trunk
• RX-8 – Gas guzzler, finicky, very engaging, spacious, no convertible(this could be a pro or con depending), back seat
• MR2 Spyder – low on power, amazing handling and feel, very little storage, low running costs, requires aftermarket roll bar for track use, cheap to buy
• Miata – similar but you trade mid-engine for a usable trunk, but cabin is more cramped
• Boxster – higher running costs, more technology to break, relatively heavy, way more storage space, similar prices to S2000 for a nice one, comfiest
• Elise – same as the MR2 Spyder, but way more power, way more expensive and even better steering feel
I was watching for a Mister 2 for a while. They were never that cheap, and the most reasonable examples had that terrible, slow-shifting autotragic. I liked that it had the same engine as our Vibe (and corolla before that), but the dream was to swap in a 2ZZ to make a poor-man’s lotus.
Luckily, I found a home-built lotus instead.
Or just buy the Miata. Plenty of great ND’s (including the higher revving ND2) in the S2000’s price range, or if you want something from the early 2000’s you can score a Mazdaspeed NB or a pretty mint NC Club for the mid teens.
And here I find both to be incredibly disappointing. The S2000 has always been a bland and uncomfortable driving experience for me, and the RX8 is a letdown to a legendary line akin to what became of the Eclipse.
Letdown how?
Choked the engine due to emissions changes which really limited the performance potential and severely increased carbon buildup issues. And not having a turbo model meaning there was no real flagship model for people to lust after.
Carbon build up is only an issue with the use of synthetic oil (which Mazda expressly states to avoid in the owners manual) and lack of really driving it (revs, which might also be in the manual). I think the perception of choking was because it wasn’t a big number turbo engine following along the RX-7 ethos. It was never intended as such, wasn’t priced as such, spec’d as such, etc. Even the name is different (8 =/= 7) It was a GT car on the sporty side of the spectrum. Four seats, heated leather, sunroof, etc. There’s a book out there on the development of the RX-8, and it goes into depth on what the design parameters were, etc.
Lots of comments about apex seals. If you are that worried then buy yourself a good rotary compression tester and take readings at least once a year. You will see the gradual effect of the seals wearing and can plan on a rebuild early. It is a lot less expensive to do a rebuild before the seals go and possibly destroy your plates.
Reneses don’t go through apex seals anyway. Side seals are the ones that go bad if any are going to. Tomato tomato, but still.
When I was looking for a fun weekend car nine years ago, my wife suggested an RX-8 as she had driven one at the Skip Barber school and really liked it. So I scoured the want ads and came across a one owner, 2010 R3 with 23k miles on the odometer for $15K. I was barely a mile down a twisty back road when I knew I was going to buy it. It has been the most fun car I have owned and is a perfect weekend cruiser. Do not believe all the tropes about the Renesis. If properly maintained it is a very reliable engine. I now have 60K miles on mine and it runs just as well as when I bought it. I give it regular 3K mile oil changes, change the plugs every 30K miles and will replace the BHR coils I installed when I purchased it this year. It is truly one the best under appreciated performance values to be had. Anyone interested should check out the following resources on things to look for when buying, including the obligatory compression test.
https://www.rx8club.com/
https://www.reddit.com/r/RX8/
http://www.rx8help.com/
This conclusion is wrong because it starts with a bad premise.
I don’t want a learning tool. I want fun. I also want my sports car to feel excessively singular. It should be the opposite of a standard issue CUV.
I have an ND Miata and drove a few S2000s before making my selection. I think the Miata is the better choice for the money, but I am also at the limit of fitting comfortably in the Miata. This article overstates the difference in feel, but I agree that the Miaita is better.
But the biggest reason I went with the Miata is that it is smaller and smaller (if you can fit), which makes every part of driving better. Not just because of weight but because of visibility and immediacy of your surroundings. The RX8’s larger size is a killer in this comparison. So is the relatively poor visibility.
Top-down driving, for me, isn’t catching some rays; it is about removing barriers between the environment and the driver. The sounds and amazing visibility are a big part of the experience. If anyone has driven a Caterham or Ariel Atom you will know that a big part of the thrill is the ability to see the front wheels turn and the go-kart nature of driving them. Especially at speeds you can achieve on the road.
Depending on when you were looking at S2000s, I agree. When I bought mine, you could find used-but-great S2000s for $10-15k. Higher mileage or F&Fed S2000s could be found just under $10k. Those days are long gone.
Never owned a Miata, but the ones I drove were fun.
It was only 3-4 years ago, and S2000 prices were quite high, to say the least. I looked at some very low-mileage third-generation MR2s as well. I like all of them very much, but I found that the Miata did what I wanted as well as anything else, and it was easy to acquire, which also meant that there wasn’t any of the price premium that comes with rarity.
Any of them was much more the sports car I was looking for than the RX8. That isn’t to say the RX8 is bad; it isn’t in the same category for me due to its size.
Yeah. The S2000 is only going to get more expensive. I agree the Miata is a better value.
s2000 has a lot of class but for the price they command you could do anything you wanted to a Z – turbo/suspension wise and still have money left over for when you inevitably blow that VQ two or three times.
heck your basically in c5 z06 territory these days.
I do still want a S2000 lol. RX8 just never had any zuz for me.
Just get the best of both worlds… an NC Miata.
My RX8 is what taught me it’s more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.
…what’s that? You thought the RX8 was the slow car?
Nope. As much as it gets memed on, especially after two decades’ worth of horsepower wars, the RX8 is not a slow car. Part of the reason I sold mine is that it never felt like it was even remotely challenged by real-world conditions. I’d be flogging it around the wilds of NC, look down, see I had tons more powerband left, and was in real danger of losing my license if Boss Hogg decided to lurk nearby.
It’s hard to put into words just how damn good that chassis is at going fast. It’s light, compact, all the weight is down low. 232hp at the crank, even if it’s way up in the rev range, is a lot in that thing anywhere other than a drag strip.
The rest of the reason I sold mine is that, contrary to Thomas’ take, I actually found it to be a pretty “meh” daily driver. Getting 15mpg around town is no fun, especially with all the babying a rotary requires. I’m going to commit Rotary Blasphemy here and say that a little 2.0T, especially if they finagled the design to not compromise the center of gravity too much, would have made the RX8 a much more usable car and, overall, perhaps more fun. It might take a bit of the 8/10th – 10/10ths fun off it but the other 99% of the time would be a lot more enjoyable.
Might have had something wrong with yours… I get low-20s in mine. You’re supposed to beat on it pretty regularly, or you get carbon build up on the seals. The mandatory fun is part of what makes it so much fun, imho.
Goodness I wish I got low 20s in mine! I had an ’04 and absolutely obsessively did all the things I was supposed to. Obsessed over oil types, redlined it daily, gently warmed it up and cooled it down, swapped the ignition coils for the far better GM ones, the list goes on.
Still have extremely fond memories of the car though, and I’m thrilled that you’re enjoying yours!
Sorry to revive a a slightly old thread but I’ve always wondered this RE: it should’ve had a turbo 4 instead of the rotary. Interesting to hear an owner confirm it. I drove an RX8 once and it was fantastic. But I’ve owned a 2004 Mazda 3 and Mazda makes great 4 cylinder engines, the 2.3 in mine sounded and felt better than many of the Hondas I’ve driven. And as you point out it would’ve reliably gotten high 20s mpg and be as reliable and fuss free as their other cars tend to be.
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with this take, at least as far as the S2k verdict goes. I’ve had an AP2 since new. I haven’t tracked it but I’ve had many miles in the twisties as well as all the usual unexpected on-road driving situations. At least with the second gen cars the suspension is pretty hard to upset in the rear, certainly if you’re on good rubber. I will grant that the power steering was not as communicative as my E90 was, but that goes for 99% of the cars sold in my lifetime. It’s still quite good compared to most. I also continue to not get why people don’t think the car is suited for plain old cruising. All the way back to the first C&D review, the automotive journalist take was that if you’re not driving a S2K at 10/10 then it’s no good. But put the top down on a nice evening and cruise around – it’s still a delight. It doesn’t burble like an old British sports car exactly, but it still hits all the right notes.
I’ve never been in an RX8 so I can’t comment on the comparison. But after the first three decades of a career in engine development I remain fascinated by the rotary in equal measure to thinking it’s a terrible design if you want an engine that does engine-type things for any length of time. I’ve met the engineers at Mazda and they are an amazing bunch. But I don’t have time in my personal life to deal with engines that can’t live to 100k miles no matter what kind of car they’re in.
Series 2 Renesis often see 200k without any trouble. More/better oiling. Very few parts in common to the point that major things aren’t even in the same place (i.e. oil filter bottom front rather than top rear). Solved pretty much all the issues with series 1 engines, but reputational damage from series 1 means only about 5k sold across all three years of production.
Yup. Agreed on your take. Didn’t get my S2000 brand new — I couldn’t afford one until they were already out of production. But, I did get to be a second-owner with 12k miles.
Second gens, as you mentioned, had a much more predictable rear. I never accidentally slid out. Steering feel wasn’t as good as the CRX I was driving prior (with a manual rack), but I still thought it was excellent. I don’t know if the 2008 had steering refinements over earlier models.
As far as people not enjoying it for cruising, maybe it’s the short gearing? I’ve never driven an AP1 to know how much different the low-RPM driving is, but I wouldn’t expect it to be significantly worse. My best guess is that due to the gearing, you have to rev a little higher to keep up from a stop, but the shifting was like silk and I didn’t mind at all.
Interesting article here and brought back a bunch of memories. Back in 2008, I had a job where I was making quite a bit of money, doing a lot of IT work out in the region, and wanted something fun to eat up the miles – up to 700-1,000/week. I looked at both of these cars as I needed to replace my still missed RSX Type-S (which was perfect for that job as the highway mileage was stellar, the trunk was huge, and it was fun winding it out to 8,000 all of the time.) The Honda dealer wouldn’t budge on the S2000 price, and the trunk was marginal to hold some computer/server/printer parts so I had to pass. I ended up getting the RX-8.
I must have had a unicorn RX-8 because (and I did baby the engine), I was never stranded, and after 80,000 miles, I didn’t need a rebuild and new seals. I did watch oil consumption, and was careful with the cold engine shut offs. I loved winding it out to 9,000 and realized quickly why Mazda included the beep to remind you to shift – it was such a smooth revving engine that it was easy to miss a shift. But wow, did that highway mileage suck. On a good day, with a hope and a prayer, low 20s were the norm. And we all might recall what happened to gas prices in 2008. Several years later, after having this car just destroying my budget with gas consumption, it was traded in and my sports car itch was taken care of for the short-term.
In 2025, I think getting a mint S2000 is the better buy because so many have been modded, crashed, or used up. I don’t think the RX-8 is ever going to be looked at as fondly as the 1993 RX-7, so that’s the car to get if you just want something to wind out and have a lot of fun with, consequences be damned.
I owned both when they were relatively new and the rx-8 was great, when it worked. I always drove it around with a couple of quarts of oil in the back. I was adding a quart at least every thousand miles. The interior also felt cheap. It did have more room than the s2000 though. That’s literally the only category where it beat the s2000. The s2000 was quicker, had better build quality, and you didn’t worry about blowing up the engine every time you drove it. Yes, it took a little more skill to drive it quickly but that’s where the fun came in. This is why the s2000 is now collectable and costs more than the sticker price for a good one and you can pick up a decent rx-8 for 5k.
A quart every 1k miles is EXACTLY what it says to add in the manual. Would you complain about having to add diesel to a Cummins at a rate commensurate to its fuel consumption? That’s just silly. Add oil in your garage periodically as required, and you don’t have to carry it around with you either. Or just buy a quart at the gas station. You’re supposed to buy the cheap stuff anyway, and that’s what they always have.
I don’t remember it saying that in the actual manual but even if it did that doesn’t mean that it’s acceptable in my book. I understand that it’s a rotary and it has needs and let’s just say that I abided buy a long list of things that you’re supposed to do to take care of one of these engines. But most people have them rebuilt at around 100k miles. Most people say they’re temperamental and you need to do this or that or the other think. I have a different saying for it though. Hot garbage. Any engine that has to be rebuilt at 100k shouldn’t be allowed to go into production in this day in age. You know what engine I didn’t have to add oil to every 1000 miles? My s2000 or literally any other car of over the 50 that I’ve owned.
There are two kinds of people in the world – those who get the Wankel, and those who don’t.
I got bit by the rotary bug early. I’ve owned not one but two RX8’s, a 2004 I bought used and had for two years, followed by a 2007 I owned for ten years. Before I had a RX4 and a Suzuki RE5 Wankel motorcycle. For me, the RX8 was one of the most fun car I’ve ever owned out of the well over 100 (so far…) I’ve had in my life.
There’s a fair amount of dissing the car online and resulting myths that have sprung up. I’ve found that most of the critics have never owned or even driven an RX8. The internet brings out a lot of armchair experts and bench racers. Besides, their carping has just kept the prices down for those who really know the car.
The RX8 is not a “numbers” car. If you want to brag about 0-60 or quarter mile times, it’s not for you. But if you care about sheer driving fun, about getting goose bumps from a car being hard-wired straight into your central nervous system, of feeling your hands directly connected to the road in a way that few other cars can match (except maybe the S2000 or an old Lotus), then the RX8 might be for you.
It just feels special to drive. It feels like an exotic, but for a fraction of the price. Mazda uses the phrase ‘jinba ittai’, ‘horse and rider as one’, to describe the Miata. The Miata is a great car (I’ve had a couple), but I think it applies even more to the RX8.
The RX8 has a low center of gravity and a low polar moment of inertia. It’s actually a front mid-engine car, the engine is behind the front wheels. When you rev the engine past 8000 rpm, and it shrieks like a jet fighter spooling up at takeoff, the car instinctively carving its way around corners… it’s addictive.
Some common internet gripes…
‘No torque’. Yeah, well, the S2000 and Formula 1 cars aren’t known for being able to pull tree stumps out at idle either, and few people accuse them of not being fun to drive. It’s part of the Wankel experience – the faster you want to go, the more you have to rev it – torque is linear with rpm’s. There are only 3 moving parts in the engine, it can take it. You have to, you know, actually know how to use a clutch pedal and shift lever.
‘Burns oil’. I hope so. All Wankels do. They are oil injected, crucial to keeping the apex seals from departing this world. Think of it as a 2-stroke. With the RX8, it’s about 1 quart for every 500 miles. Many piston engine cars, like most air-cooled Porches, consume oil too, and I haven’t heard too many people complain about them. If you drive a sports car, is it really that much of an imposition to check the oil?
‘Short engine life’. See above. I think a lot of the problems of engines grenading themselves were because most people don’t check their oil level. Some people seem to feel put upon just to put gas in their car. With most modern cars, you can get away with not checking the oil level between changes (still not the smartest thing to do in the world). Not with the RX8. A quart every 500 miles means it would be bone dry before the next change. I can’t help but wonder if there’s a correlation between premature engine failures, and people who let them run out of oil.
On the RX8 forums, there are people with over 100k miles, and some with over 200k miles, on the original engine. Proper maintenance goes a long way for longevity with a Wankel. It’s simple: if you can’t be bothered to check the oil at every gas fill up, and actually top it off when it’s low, don’t buy a Wankel.
‘Poor gas mileage’. Well, yes, there’s that. The Wankel inherently has poor thermodynamic efficiency (banana-shaped combustion chamber). In the real world, think 14-15 mpg city, and 22-23 mpg highway. But this is a fun car, not an econobox. If you measure it on a fun-per-gallon instead of mpg basis, I think it beats just about anything on the road for the price.
The prices of these cars are (finally) rising but still low for what you get. The fun for your dollar is amazing. What other car is so much fun to drive, has a 9000 rpm redline, an exotic feel, Japanese quality, you can track it but it even has the practicality of a back seat and is comfortable enough to be a daily driver, for what is essentially credit card money?
Top Gear tested the car, this is what Jeremey Clarkson had to say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5FNjyaLfC8
If I had to pick only one car to drive for the rest of my life, it would be the RX8. One of the biggest (automotive) mistakes of my life was selling my RX8, in a weak moment when I had to ration how many cars we could transport in a cross-country move. A 2015 Mustang GT won the space on the transporter over the RX8.
It was a mistake.
I don’t have the numbers, so going by gut feeling, but I have to believe that many of the Wankel failures were due to the automatic transmission. I recall getting that transmission lowered the redline by, what, 1500 or so, and the average automatic driver likely wasn’t winding it out, which is needed with the rotary. And losing all of those revs meant losing a considerable amount of horsepower. I think one of Mazda’s biggest issues with that car was offering the AT. They should have done an S2000 or RSX Type-S and made it 6-speed only. If anything, it could have saved the engine from early destruction.