Car enthusiasts. Apart from car designers they’re absolutely the worst people imaginable (and I say that as a car enthusiast and designer). You can’t say or write anything remotely contentious without getting metaphorically duffed up – I should know. OEMs constantly get it in the neck for ignoring enthusiast demands and getting on with the business of building cars they know (or hope) will sell to normal customers. ‘If only this car came equipped with x, y and z it would sell thousands more!’ Or the classic “I would have bought one of those but it costs $10k too much!” And then there is the old “I was interested in getting that car but twenty years ago the OEM let a minor defect get out which was blown out of all proportion on the forums so I’ll never buy one their cars again.”
This fickle attitude manifested in the return of a much storied and much loved nameplate: The Toyota Supra. At first the A90 was decried for containing too much Munich seasoning. Eventually it gained a manual transmission and a cheaper two liter model and it still struggled to sell more than 6 thousand units a year worldwide. Oh yeah, it was too expensive! Back in 1993 the inflation adjusted price of an A80 turbo was getting on for $86k – they were never the accessible rear wheel drive everyday coupe that exists solely in enthusiasts’ minds. Now the A90 is dead. Twenty years hence people wearing a faded tee shirt with a stick shift graphic on it will be bemoaning the death of cars like this even though they didn’t buy any at the time. Catering to these entitled babies-on-wheels is a tricky business, because like me they are never happy.
If you’ve been following along with this series for a bit you’ll know it’s not just about what’s good and why or what’s bad and why, but what examining a car’s design context and history can teach us (or rather you because obviously I know it all already). It affords me the opportunity to talk about other aspects of car design and conception beyond just the drawing pretty pictures-part that some online commentators assume is the only thing (apart from talking utter bollocks) that car designers are capable of.
Because we’re a dynamic and membership focused media organization at the Autopian, one of our mottos is customer service fourth – we listen to our members and then immediately get sidetracked by looking at cars shaped like boats or boats that are classed as trains, which actually happened the afternoon I started writing this. Recently a reader got in touch and wanted an expert take on the Toyota GT(R)86. More specifically comparing the first generation which they disliked and the second generation, which they adored. This sounded like a job for me so I’m here to deliver. Less facetiously it gives me the chance to cover in more depth a couple of things I’ve talked about tangentially in other articles; namely why cars targeted at enthusiasts must cater to a wider market and how the design of a car evolves over time.
How The GT86 Came Into Being
The story of the modern “86” begins with the Toyota FT-HS (FT standing for Future Toyota) hybrid sports car concept shown at the 2007 Detroit show. A joint product of Toyota’s CALTY advanced design studio and the Advanced Product Strategy Group, it was envisaged as a 3.5 liter V6 with associated hybrid system combining for around 400bhp – a sports car for the eco-conscious generation.
An odd mix of sharp creases and more rounded surfaces, the cab forward proportion and openings behind the doors gave the impression of the FT-HS being mid-engined but the powerplant was up front. Visually and conceptually, reall,y the FT-HS was a progenitor for the later 2014 FT-1 concept that became the A90 Supra; its relevance here is that it demonstrated Toyota was thinking seriously about a rear wheel drive enthusiast-targeted car, something they didn’t sell at the time.
The concept that really marked the genesis of the GT86 was the FT-86 which debuted at the 2009 Tokyo show, designed by Toyota Europe Design Development (ED2) in the Cote d’Azur in France. Nice work if you can get it.
This Flash Red five seat coupe contained hints of the earlier FT-HS but, with realistic sized wheels and calmer exterior surfacing, it was a lot closer to a realistic production proposal than fever dream show car.
The typical concept bullshit was mostly limited to the interior – funky secondary controls around the instrument binnacle and a CD slot concealed behind a zipper — fun and original but not a hope in hell of making production. The expensive 3.5 V6 hybrid powertrain bit the dust and was replaced by a more prosaic 2.0 boxer engine, and the 86 moniker left you in no doubt precisely where this new model was targeted.
Toyota then wheeled out the FT-86 II at the Geneva show in 2011. Again the work of the ED2 studio it was a gussied up version of the production car that finally broke cover at the Tokyo show in December of that year and appeared in showrooms in 2012. Subaru had recently started staying with Toyota at weekends so the new coupe was a joint effort; Subaru supplied the engine and built the whole car at their Gunma plant. Initially available in the U.S. and Canada as the Scion FR-S, it was called the Toyota GT86 everywhere else. The Subaru version nobody cared about was the BRZ. [Ed Note: Some people prefer the Subi! -DT].
The brief was clear enough – create and build a stylish car that wouldn’t empty your wallet and was fun to drive on the road, much like the original AE86 in the eighties. On the surface it looks like Toyota got things mostly right, but if we cast our designer’s eye over it and consider the whole execution, some odd choices were made.
Toyota made a big deal about this car being the spiritual successor to the AE86. The bore and stroke of the engine are both 86mm. The diameter of the exhaust is 86mm. There’s an 86 roundel flanked by opposing pistons in the scalloped area of the front fender. So far so on the nose.
The new car had a trunk as opposed to a hatch, even though part of their spiel to the aftermarket crowd was the ability to fold the rear seats flat so a set of wheels and tires for track days could be chucked in the back. Instead of a buzzing straight four motor it had a throbbing cast-iron stove of a boxer motor with a hole in the torque curve. A car aimed squarely at people who used to read Tarmac Scraping Hatchback and Swimsuit Model magazine on the toilet but now had real adult money to spend, it ended up being a simulacrum of an OEM tuner car created from expedient ingredients that sounded good on paper, but to some didn’t quite add up to sum of it’s parts. [Ed Note: Many people loved the BRZ/FR-S, though that hole in the torque curve was indeed strange. -DT].
Critiquing The Design
When it comes to the exterior of the GT86, there’s not a huge amount wrong with how it looks (sorry John). The proportions are good, the surfacing is clean and it’s not trying to be something it isn’t. You view this car and understand what it is straight away.
I think the shapes of the lighting units both front and rear are out of place and sit uneasily with the surrounding bodywork, and some of the detailing like the diffuser feel contrived. Other than being a modern rear wheel drive two door coupe there is nothing visually remarkable about it. The overall effect is fussily acceptable rather than heart-wrenchingly captivating – it’s mildly anodyne with a few odd details in the bland grand Toyota tradition.
Cars like this I always think of as being a bit “thin” – lacking in substance and depth. There’s no love, personality or overarching style to draw you in and keep you there once you get past the driving experience. Offering special editions with trick aero and suspension pieces is admirable, but didn’t broaden the appeal to offer anyone outside the enthusiast target market a compelling reason to buy one.
Narrow appeal aside, one of the key issues with the design of the GT-86 is how Toyota marketed it. Toyota released a series of videos with chief designer Akihiro Nagaya outlining how the exterior of the GT-86 was directly influenced by the Toyota 2000GT – a Yamaha built straight six Japanese E-Type that went on sale in 1967. I thought the GT86 was supposed to be a modern incarnation of the original Hachi-Roku? Now it’s here you’re pointing out how the curved body side and DLO (the outline of the side glazing) and the humps on the instrument panel upper are meant to deliberately evoke a completely different car from forty five years ago?
While we’re about transposing visual motifs, those odd lighting shapes are meant to represent a piston and con-rod – something that is replicated again in the trim piece at the base of the gear shifter. I’m always against this sort of thing because taking A and slapping it on B and calling the result C is not useful design – it’s too literal an interpretation. This sort of post-modernist bullshit is fine for art, fashion, architecture or interior design if you enjoy that sort of playschool whimsy, but here it’s misplaced. A Memphis Group designed car as a thought exercise might amuse design bores but as a design movement the ideas and style of overt post-modernism are rarely suited to mainstream automobiles, even if it’s just sparingly done on the details. It feels corny to me but I’m a snob.
GT86 Becomes The GR86
The GT86 became the GR86 for the arrival of the 2021 second-generation car. More significant than the letter change was the concerted effort Toyota made to make the car more attractive to the wider market. The power deficit was addressed by punching the boxer motor out to 2.4 liters. Michelin Pilot Sport 4s replaced the Prius spec ditch finders on the first gen and the exterior was given an extensive makeover. Designed by Kosuke Kobo and Kazuhiko and led by chief designer Koichi Matsumoto, according to Kubo one the stated intentions was:
“to create a simple and timeless design by trimming away all excess, so customers can treasure it for a long time”.
Out went the odd lights and slightly fussy detailing for a much smoother, joined up muscular look. The scallop in the front fender which served no purpose other than providing somewhere to put the 86 logo was banished and replaced by a vent that neatly flows down to run along the rocker, adding solidity and width between the wheel arches.
The rear diffuser and lights are far tidier and compliment each other much better this time around. They look like they were drawn by an adult as opposed to someone coming off an all night Initial D bender. The trunk volume actually got smaller, demonstrating what a load of bollocks that spare set of wheels and tires thing was, and the trunk lid itself received a more convincing duck tail style spoiler ameliorating the need for aftermarket tea trays. It just looks like a completer and more grown up car.
It Needed Wider Appeal
None of these improvements should come as a rattling surprise. OEMs solicit feedback constantly – not just from customers who bought their car but crucially from those who didn’t.
A year or so after the on-sale date when it’s time to start thinking about the facelift or replacement they have a fairly good idea of what changes need to be made. At Land Rover during a quiet afternoon I would dig around on the company intranet and read these reports to try and better inform my work. Toyota had the best of intentions designing a car to appeal to a specific subset of the enthusiast market: In Japan the GT86 was even available with a stripped out interior, unpainted bumpers and steel wheels. But crucially by accommodating the type of customer who enjoys fitting aftermarket parts and personalizing their cars, they designed everyone else out. Regular drivers won’t be thanking you for engineering in easy oversteer when they gun the motor on a wet on-ramp.
The problem was the first generation was just too single minded to capture the type of customer who just wants to walk into a dealership, slap down a check, slip the sunglasses on and drive out in style.
Making it an unfinished blank canvas for drifting fans meant it had no hope of peeling customers out of Miatas. Toyota must have realized this quickly; it seems the reason the GT86 had a trunk instead of a hatch is because it was design protected from the beginning to offer a convertible version.
Design protection is when you try and anticipate future variants and make the necessary engineering accommodations. For example I would be floored if the new Dodge Charger cannot accommodate the Hemi V8 – even though it’s not currently in the product mix. We don’t know exactly why the convertible GT86 never happened – Toyota showed it twice in 2013 at the Geneva and Tokyo shows but Subaru chief Yasuyuki Yoshinaga said the car would need complete re-engineering but in the same interview admits there had been requests from the U.S. market for an open GT86. A convertible would certainly have added to the GT86’s rather lackluster sales figures, which cratered two years after release dropping from around 40k to just over 20k worldwide, suggesting everyone caught up in the initial hype bought one, and didn’t buy another. Sales picked up slightly when the second generation went on sale to about 25k, but because of the EU implementing Global Safety Regulations 2 , the latest model has been pulled from the European market.
Understanding The Market
It’s easy to sit at our keyboards and throw stones at enthusiasts for wanting what they can’t have and at OEMs for not building what enthusiasts want, but the reality is much more nuanced. A point I’ve made elsewhere before is we used to get cars like the original AE86 because they were the consequence not the conclusion – that car was built during Japan’s bubble period and was based on the previous generation Corolla from 1979.
The new car market has changed out of all recognition since then. The Miata has endured for thirty five years because it overcame the stigma of being a car for dog walkers and hairdressers. The ND made a marked departure from the cutesy design of previous generations. Mazda also offers the RF giving the security and style of a hardtop (if not the practicalities) for those customers who want it, cleverly without requiring any alterations to the existing body in white (the underlying structure). There’s even a smaller 1.5 liter engine available in non-US markets. With a niche vehicle you have to offer as much choice as possible – the success of cars like the Fiat 500 and Dodge Challenger and even the 911 is proof of that.
Toyota had become the beige cargo shorts and fleece normcore dad; boring and utterly dependable. The first GT86 was a hail Mary to prove they were still cool – ripping the fleece off to reveal a Pixies tee shirt underneath. Their intention was commendable but it took ten years and a second generation to become the car it arguably should have been in the first place.
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The problem with the Supra was two-fold. It was savagely beaten with the ugly stick, and it wasn’t a Toyota. It was just an even uglier BMW. And at this point that takes some real serious intent to pull off. Perfectly fine mechanicals, wrong body, wrong badge. And the lack of a manual Day 1 did it no favors, even if they wouldn’t have actually sold that many. It’s the principle.
The problem with the GT86 was just what you say – it was a lovely sportscar chassis with delightful handling, just enough space with the useful added bonus of vestigial back seats (should have been a hatch though), but absolutely the wrong engine in it. It didn’t need any more power, but it needed more *fun*. That engine wanted to be bolted to a CVT in a cheap econobox, not in a sportscar. How the company that makes the WRX could get it so wrong is absolutely baffing. THE most disappointing test drive I have ever taken. I wanted to love it, but I just didn’t. No idea if the new motor really fixed it, haven’t tried one, the damned thing should have had a turbo from the get-go, at least as an option.
I like to think I have done my part buying new enthusiast cars (all manuals):
’02 Golf GLS TDI
’08 Saab 9-3SportCombi
’11 BMW 328i wagon (RWD AND 6spd stick, and I plan to be buried in it)
’13 Fiat 500 Abarth
’16 BMW M235i
’17 GTI Sport (should have kept it forever, sigh)
’18 Fiat Spider Veloce
It was fun while it lasted, nothing new I have any interest in buying anymore, and I really don’t see that changing the way things are going in the industry in the US.
Plus LOTS of used ones.
Nothing to add. Just wanted to say hey.
I bought an FR-S in 2013 and still daily it today. Moved across the US 4 times with it (true ocean to ocean moves) and I cannot tell you how much a hatchback version would save my sanity on an ongoing basis. You can fit a surprising amount of stuff in it, but the trunk opening is so small.
The torque hole is a real problem, and the whole car only does that tighten up and shrink around you thing when you are over 5000rpm.
I bought it at in my mid 20s and even then I thought it looked too boy-racer. That front isn’t getting any better with time. IMO the only good angle is about 8 feet away 3/4 behind it looking over the rear hips.
I will drive it till the wheels fall off though.
Enthusiasts are the worst.
I spent years sh*tting on the development leaks for the first 86. I was convinced by the time it hit showrooms, it would be an appearance package on a Solara.
When I saw the production model, and the specs were pretty close to what was promised, I bought an FR-S. I think it was a 2013 modey year purchased in mid-2012.
A considerable amount if first-year problems and I wasn’t in love with the styling or the very obvious orange color (Hot Lava), but I do remember the driving experience fondly (even with the torque dip).
I’ve been very tempted to pick up a new one. I like that it looks more aggressive from the side than from the front and rear – allowing a bit more blending into traffic. I am a little disappointed that it looks like (or at least reminds me of) a Civic coupe from the early 2000’s from the front or rear, but I don’t care about that from the driver’s seat.
“Prius spec ditch finders.” Thank you for calling out those god-awful tires.
When my Focus ST blew up from Ford problems, I needed another daily and the GR86 literally just started coming out in road tests and they reported that they fixed the engine problem and the juvenile, yet bland styling, so it was between a GR86 or a manual Civic hatch. The main things that appealed were that the ’86 was cheaper, didn’t require much use of the touchscreen, and (the manual) didn’t have any of that abominable Eyesight crap. I had no interest in the first gen. The first gen reminded me of the meh 240SX while the 2nd gen reminds me of the 240Z (though a lot better than that car, which has become highly overrated in the last few years). Never considered the Miata because it’s overpriced, purely a toy with virtually no cargo space or comfort, and I have no use for convertibles. Wisely, Toyota let Subaru do the chassis as it reminds me of my mk1 Legacy instead of, well, anything Toyota. Too bad it doesn’t have that car’s steering and clutch feel (though, TBF, that was with an aftermarket wheel which can’t be replicated with the airbag handicap of the new car), throttle response, flat torque curve (The FA24D still has a bit of a dip and I hate hp-over-torque engines to begin with. This one is merely acceptable.), and seat comfort, though chopping the shit out of the seat bottom bolsters made it more comfortable than this POS Chevy Equinox I’ve been driving lately (WTF does this POS have bottom side bolsters, especially ones made to fit a 90s runway model?!). The handling/ride compromise is excellent, though—with the 17s, it even rides nicer than a number of CUVs on broken pavement. It wasn’t an ideal car (can’t put kayaks on the aluminum roof, so I built a trailer), but I figured I needed to buy something like this while there was still something like this to buy. With the market so packed with unappealing cars, I really don’t know what else I’d get at any price except for maybe an LC500 (I can forgive the auto for the sound of that engine and because it’s really a cruiser). I can’t daily a Morgan Super Three.
When I drove my Miata home and started driving it as a car, I felt like someone was going to take it from me. I felt like the Miata was obviously not meant for use on the roads with other vehicles – like driving a SXS on the highway.
I still have it and really enjoy taking it out, but I don’t drive nearly aggressively enough to justify its suspension setup and comp tires. We’ll probably sell that towards a new GR86 soon.
I’m having my own picky-enthusiast moment right now. I really wanted to get a Civic Hybrid. In our family we already have a 2019 Honda Insight. It’s a delightful car with surprisingly sporty steering. It has great responsiveness and accuracy. It’s fun and tossable and also somehow has a nice smooth and controlled ride quality. But it needs more power and less engine droning.
I thought the Civic Hybrid would be like that car but quieter and with more power. It’s not. The power train is really nicely sorted and I like that. But they sucked all of the fun out of the steering. It’s slow to respond, squishy feeling, and it just feels like it wants to be pointed straight ahead. The car feels like dead weight in corners. It would drive me crazy if I had to live with it.
But I also know that Honda is pretty good at making things their customers want. I’m quite sure they’ll sell more of them because of this new relaxed handling. They probably got feedback from customers that the previous cars felt too jumpy or something.
I can hope that someday they’ll make an Si Hybrid. Or maybe the upcoming Prelude will have better handling. I really want the better gas mileage, and the Hybrid power train works really well now. It’s got enough power and is much quieter than the one in the Insight.
I’ve always had manual transmission cars. My Focus ST is a hoot to drive. But mostly I’ve always gotten manual transmissions because I tend to like small displacement cars that just can’t handle an automatic. But their current hybrid drive train feels peppy and responsive enough for me. I Just need to get that combined with good steering and handling.
I think you answered your own question. There’s a good chance that the Prelude is what you’re after.
Regarding car enthusiasts not purchasing the stuff they say want: I did my part by purchasing a Fiesta ST new before they went away. Didn’t seem to help.
My son-in-law has a 2nd gen GR86. Nice car, but I have to admit it didn’t give me quite the vibes I was hoping for when I drove it. Competent, but nary a whisper from a little devil sitting on your shoulder telling you to do inappropriate things; in direct contrast to the way the FiST demands you drive it. Then again, I was admittedly being careful since it wasn’t my car. Also, I was able to keep up with his GR86 in my FiST pretty easily going up Palomar Mountain (if you’re a car enthusiast living near San Diego, you know the road) despite my relative lack of power. Admittedly it’s a tight road that really favors cornering over sheer grunt but I took up the chase position because I thought he’d pull away and it didn’t happen.
I would argue the Fiesta ST is a slightly different case because it’s a hot version of something that already exists, rather than a car created solely for enthusiasts.
I bought what some consider as the spiritual successor to your car in the Kona N after I bought and owned a GTI (both new) so I’ve tried to do my part as well. The Kona got canceled because no one wanted it/all the car publications exaggerated how bad the ride is. I acknowledge that it’s a very stupid car but that’s what I like about it. It’s a rolling shitpost.
I bought a (obviously used as I’m in the US where Ford no longer sells cars) Fiesta ST just two weeks ago. It’s bouncy, noisy and kinda impractical…. so perfect for my 2nd car that just sits in the garage and I look at it while I go do other stuff in the daily.
Not sure if that helps, but I like to think I’m doing my part…. even though I didn’t order a BRZ which I could have with the employee discount I get from working sales-adjacent at a franchise dealer with a subaru arm.
I had a 1st gen BRZ, it had certainly had a couple of styling glitches (wheels, tail lights…) but was more than good enough for a cheap fun car. The bit that seemed to get by most reviewers/bench racers at the time was how cheap they actually were. The base car had an LSD standard, no GT or sport package required to get the minimum viable option set for an enthusiast. All you got if you paid more were foglights and interior niceties.
While the second gen isn’t quite as bad, I’ve never really liked the 86. For one, I found it uncomfortable to sit in, but the main reason is it committed what I see as a terrible sin; it’s the right tool for the job. Same reason why I don’t like Miatas. It looks boring and it does the job of being a weekend play/race car acceptably. I can’t accept the boredom of a car that isn’t visually interesting and isn’t interesting to operate in that it’s either mind bogglingly stellar to drive, wants to kill you, or a bit of both.
I have a first gen, absolutely love it.
I think the second generation is a really attractive car. Whenever I see them in person they always give me a wee hit of serotonin, particularly in Neptune, their powder blue that unfortunately doesn’t look like it’s available on the 2025s. A couple folks at the track I go to have them as well and with a few mods and a good driver they’re pretty damn quick, at least through the twisties.
Like all of us I do genuinely love the RWD, manual, momentum car archetype. I’d probably lean Miata over one of these personally because I think the “added practicality” these offer is a little overblown and I enjoy a drop top, but that’s just me. You can’t go wrong with either and if you’re thinking of getting one just go for it already, this stuff isn’t going to be around much longer.
I’ve tried to talk my old man into going halfsies on one of these (I am not in a phase of life that’s conducive to buying a second car that’s a toy) or a Miata but he just won’t budge. I guess he didn’t get to the position he’s in (that allows him to custom order X5 PHEVs) by splurging very often. Oh well. I also can’t go test drive one because I’d probably leave with it and have a lot of explaining to the wife, dog, and 7 month old to do when I get home.
But anyway…any word on them putting the GR Corolla/Yaris powertrain in the Toyobaru? There’s a lot of smoke that that’s been in development (including a one off that was for Sema or one of those type of events) and I’d imagine it would make for an absolute riot in one of these. I get that power isn’t really the point here but a 300 horsepower, peaky turbo 3 cylinder with AWD and a trick differential? Downright naughty.
In my opinion, what I disliked most about the GT86 was the wheels. I’ll agree that the GR86 redesign was a vast improvement, though.
I would have loved for a longer car with useable rear seats, and with a proper hatch/liftback.
But then, I’m a hatchback proponent. And vocally express my displeasure that Subaru axed the WRX hatch.
Ooof….I’d fuck with a shooting brake version of this HARD.
You see? Never happy.
I’m not buying new until Stellantis makes a brown Hemi powered manual Pacifica…but I’d also settle for a rotary powered Mazda 3 wagon as long as it’s stick and electrified.
I don’t see the word ‘diesel’ in your post. Surely that was an oversight.
I actually nearly said “diesel rotary” but then I realized that unfortunately such a thing is probably not possible due to diesels being compression combustion
Diesel rotaries were developed- they useda roots blower or turbocharger to pre-compress the intake charge. The combustion chamber shape will forever remain the problem
the Pacifica still have the ‘stow and go’ seating in that hemi version, or did they have to axe it to fit the AWD system in?
who are we kidding, if there was a manual version of a minivan I would be a buyer even without the hemi or AWD.
so put my name down on the waiting list after yours would ya?
Can’t rain all the time.
I just don’t like the flat four. If they wanted to channel the AE86 (or even the 2000GT) an inline engine needed to be used.
“There’s no love, personality, or overarching style to draw you in and keep you there once you get past the driving experience.”
The idea that a car benefits from ever broader appeal is how we ended up with all-CUV lineups. Of course, there needs to be a balance to achieve financial viability, but an enthusiast isn’t enthusiastic about financial viability. The Miata and 86 twins are appealing largely because they are compromised as a means of more specialized appeal.
BMWs have gone for selling cars without compromises in terms of performance, luxury, utility, etc. But they also no longer have any feel or appeal to the types of enthusiasts on which they built their brand. They now make cars primarily for people who want to present the appearance of being driving enthusiasts while cruising in a car, but they will never tap the potential.
Also, always be very wary of anything that taps nostalgia as a selling point. It is rarely used for any reason other than to cover up a significant flaw.
The point is the original GT86 was too compromised even for a lot of enthusiasts, namely the ones who wanted a manual rwd two door but don’t want to faff about fixing the flaws with aftermarket parts.
I always thought the same thing about the TRIANGLES all over the RX-8.
Yes another good example.
Now I really want to know more about this boat that’s classed as a train! What on earth (so to speak) could that entail?
How about the Small World ride at Disney World? That’s a boat pulled around a track.
We (I) went down a UK-France cross channel rail service rabbit hole. When Sealink ran the ferry service for operational reasons some of the train carrying ferries were classed as trains:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_99_(ships)
He’s back!
In black.
One of the early videos I found had a Subaru engineer who kept beating the “low center if gravity” drum about the design. The aftermarket will create the extra horsepower and torque but only the OEM can build in the low CG. Anyways, he blames that for the lack of hatch, sunroof, or t-tops and even the turbo. Because that would have moved weight up top.
I call BS, every day I’ve owned my BRZ I’ve wished it had a hatch and would happily trade a usable rear opening for a few pounds moved to the roof. T-tops and a turbo would have been awesome too but mostly a rear hatch.
The proposed convertible was why, but it’s interesting to think what would have generated more sales – a hatch or a drop top.
Why not both? The 2G Eclipse was offered as a hatch or a convertible. The only thing that suffered on the rag top was the drivetrain.
Cost I expect. There would be too many parts unique to each version.
Same here. The amount of crap I can fit in it is amazing (set of mounted wheels and replacement tires, 9′ boards with the trunk closed), but it would be so much easier and fit a lot more stuff if it had a hatch instead of a small trunk opening (I often have to load from the passenger door). T-tops or 2-piece targa would be about perfect.
The pedals on my bike are about 1CM too wide to fit through the trunk opening, otherwise my bike would fit in the back with the seats down. That’s my biggest complaint.
I know a guy who bought the BRZ cousin when they came out. Working at a Subaru shop he was stoked to throw everything he could as far as tuning goes. Afterall, the shop was a hot spot for pushing 300-400hp (nice ponies back in the day) from WRX’s and lifting Outbacks the right way…along with custom exoskeletons.
After throwing way too much $$ at it he traded it as far away from him as he could because it still wasn’t exactly fast.
To date I have only seen GT86 and BRZs clapped out like they are owned by 14 years olds…being passed by soccer mom SUVs on the highway all they while being reved out like they are driving it like they stole it.
Like the last generation Non Supra Celica, they look great. They look like they should be fast and driven like a proper sports car. But in the end has the powerplant intended for an engineer’s 16 year old daughter’s first car.
I don’t think they are particularly light. But the first engine was definitely a boat anchor.
I think I speak for at least several people when I say “Adrian! Great to have you back.” What a treat!
I need the money.
From a business perspective, it’s pretty obvious that middle-class car enthusiast are a difficult bunch to cater to. A lot of us won’t buy a brand new car because we don’t want to spend that kind of money and then take a large depreciation hit, so we don’t contribute to the sales numbers when we buy cars after they’re 10+ years old.
The current GR86 really is one of the only cars I would buy new, but I don’t want to deal with car payments or expensive insurance so I just keep driving 30 year old BMW’s.
Middle and upper middle class enthusiasts also want stuff that regular buyers don’t. Manual transmissions, cars that are loud, cars that have less tech rather than more, etc. We don’t want BORING cars but we don’t want any that could be considered immature either…and we’re all incredibly fucking cheap so if you’re going to crest the $35,000 mark you’d better make it worth it. The Golf R is too boring. The GRC is too juvenile. We really are insufferable lol.
Trying to appease us is a fools’ errand and I get why lots of manufacturers aren’t even trying anymore. Hell just look at the Integra launch and reception. That poor car got absolutely eviscerated by enthusiasts, but Honda had a backup plan and put a CVT in it and now it sells really well for a small sedan because normies see it, go “hey that looks sharp and has a luxury badge”, they realize it’s more or less the same cost as a moderately equipped Accord or Camry, and the rest is history.
But anyway, making cars for us is basically a passion project for manufacturers that sell enough volume that they have some disposable income. Really all I have to add is a request (and this isn’t directed at you) that people please BUY THESE CARS so they stick around. Enough with the “I’ll wait five years and buy a used one” or “yeah it’s cool but I don’t like the 2-3 shift so I won’t buy one” stuff.
If you want affordable fun cars you’ve got to talk with your money at some point…but uncle Adrian is right. Our favorite thing in the world is to shun attempts at winning our hearts, watch them get canceled, wait a few years, then whine about how good we had it/they don’t make em like they used to.
Of course I’m right.
Good points as usual Nsane. I’ll also point out that the middle class enthusiast market has been a little *ahem* Nsane for a while. I really tried to get my hands on a new Civic Type R or GR Corolla, but greedy dealers and their ADM placed those firmly outside my budget. I ended up getting a Veloster N and don’t regret my purchase, though I sometimes wonder what life would’ve been like with one of my other options had it worked out as originally planned.
Anyway, I agree that enthusiasts need to vote with their wallets if they want cool cars to be available. But sometimes the market forces just won’t let us, even when the desire is there.
I was trying to get a GRC before I got my N. I wanted to look at the new CTR as well but once the $8,000 pre ADM price increase was announced and dealerships got their grubby little hands on them that was out as well.
For what it’s worth I got my car a little under MSRP and I do think 35-40 is the sweet spot for middle class fun cars. The fact that the CTR is and for a little while the GRC was a $50,000+ proposition was silly. At that point your primary market can’t afford your product…and while (not at all bragging here just giving context) I could hypothetically fork over 50-60 for something at that point it damn well better have a luxury badge.
Slash I’m cheap. Anyway, you’re happy with your N? Mine has been oodles of fun and handled a few track days quite well. I got hit with the dreaded knock sensor issue the high output turbo 4s seem to have commonly but other than that it’s been relatively trouble free…and to be honest the DCT is better for me anyway since my wife can’t drive stick and I spent probably 75% of my driving in traffic.