The Pentastar Tick is a well-known problem, with rumors starting to fly around not long after the engine’s 2011 model-year launch. As owners put miles on their engines, forums and Reddit threads lit up with more and more reports and questions about the issue. I first heard it for myself when I was driving a Dodge Charger media vehicle that had well under 30,000 miles on the clock.
You’ll find details in several internal documents like STAR Case #S1309000016, which dates back to 2014, as well as at least one technical service bulletin. Plus there are videos all over Youtube about it, and there’s been a class action lawsuit filed.
Here’s a look at the STAR document:
Here’s a TSB:
Here’s a YouTube Video:
Here are some screenshots of that class-action lawsuit:
And here’s a Reddit post and a Jeep Forum post:
And here are a bunch of complaints on the National Highway Safety Administration website, though it’s worth noting that that the complaints don’t specify the engine involved (though all of these vehicles could be equipped with the Pentastar):
This Pacifica was only equipped with the Pentastar:
And so was the Wrangler JK:
It’s not clear that there’s only one singular problem, here, but the shortest version of one of the main issues as I understand it goes like this: The Pentastar tick is a loud, rhythmic metallic tapping, with a higher pitch consistent with something loose in the valvetrain. The noise, in some cases, provides a warning that, if ignored, will end with a camshaft failure and metal particles being sent through the oiling system, which can destroy the engine main bearings and require a rebuild or replacement.
Later engines may be better; according to folks on this Bob is the Oil Guy thread, metallurgy in some parts batches may have been the problem. While there has been a Pentastar Upgrade version of the engine released, the valvetrain design is, as I understand it, essentially unchanged, so it’s possible one could experience a similar issue with any year and displacement of the engine.
Note that this isn’t the left-bank cylinder head issue early Pentastars also suffered. And it’s also not the same camshaft issue that sometimes happens to Hemi-V8 powered vehicles. There’s a lot of model overlap between the two engines, but the specific problems are different. It’s also worth noting that, though I’ve found plenty of complaints online, I don’t know the prevalence of the issue; it’s likely most Pentastar engines are just fine.
Let’s Step Back A Second
Before we get into the meaty details of this particular issue, let’s do a quick refresher about the basics.
Engines have cylinders where the combustion happens to convert air and fuel into physical force. Valves are used to let the air and fuel in, seal the cylinder for the burning part of process, and then let out the exhaust.
Everything is carefully timed and linked together. The valves are operated by a camshaft — basically a metal rod with teardrop shaped lobes. The lobes push on something – in this case a “rocker” — a metal finger that pivots and ultimately transfers the camshaft’s motion to the valve, which is normally held shut by a spring. (There’s a hydraulic lifter that is there to take up the “lash” in the system; it uses oil pressure to make sure everything is tightly sliding/pushing so there’s not too much play, which can cause damage/affect engine performance).
With all these metal pieces in contact and spinning, when things go wrong, they can really go wrong. Normally, with proper lubrication and component durability, things last for many hundreds of thousands of miles. And therein lies the rub: In this case, durability isn’t what it should be, and even though Chrysler engineers did a good job designing a simple, robust overhead cam valvetrain with rockers that use a roller (like a skateboard or rollerstake wheel, just small) as the element that’s in contact with the camshaft lobe, for whatever reason, a whole lot of these have not held up.
In the land of air-cooled VWs and red-block Volvos, loud valves are usually no big deal. Happy, even. But when your modern car goes all tippity-tappity in the engine bay, as my 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee did, it’s a problem.
The “Pentastar Tick” is a common issue for the 3.6 and 3.2 liter V6 used in many Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram vehicles since 2011. The good news is that, in many cases, it’s pretty straightforward to fix, but bravery is required.
Don’t Sleep On This
The Pentastar Tick, which you can hear above, can be fatal to your engine’s camshafts, and by extension, the whole engine. It’s never good to send metal flakes through the lubrication system. The cause of the tick, in many cases, is a failure of the needle bearings in the roller rockers that follow the cam lobes.
Basically, there’s a little wheel that’s supposed to spin as it rides the teardrop-shaped cam lobe. This design reduces friction for more efficiency. When the bearings die, though, the wheel drops out of its proper position, and then the steel of the rocker contacts the cam.
This is bad. The roller and the camshaft are properly hardened and designed to be in rolling contact. But sliding contact is bad, and could lead to lots of metal particles being sent through the motor.
And the longer you wait, the more expensive the repair gets. Rockers are about $10 each for decent ones. Camshafts are more than $350. Engine swaps are well over a grand in labor alone.
Parts Plus Labor Will Be Thousands
Given the amount of disassembly required to replace the $10 rockers – to do all 12 in that cylinder head – this job at a shop or dealer will cost you between $1500-$2000. The nice thing in this instance, if you can call it nice, is that the Pentastar is pretty well-designed and robust. It’s not that hard to get in there and fix it. To start, you just have to remove:
- Engine Cover
- Upper Intake Manifold
- Throttle Body
- Ignition Coils (in that bank only)
- Cam Position Sensors
- Valve Cover
- Cam Phasers
- Camshafts
And there’s a dipstick bracket bolt on the bellhousing that’s a sneaky bastard and a bear to get at. I had to use a bunch of long extensions and a universal from below. I *may* have cross-threaded it on reassembly.
Dive In
The job doesn’t require much more than a pretty good Harbor Freight tool kit, some cleaners and solvents, penetrating oil, and a tube of RTV. The biggest challenge I faced was making sure the cams and timing gear were locked in place. I just had to make sure I had all the torque values and instructions for reassembly. I had to pick up a Harbor Freight torque sensor to get the cam caps properly torqued.
These are the special tools you need: Chrysler #10200A, #10202, and #10369A to lock the cam phasers and timing apparatus in place. The official versions are nice, made out of metal, durable for repeated use. I went with a $25 plastic set sold as appropriate for the VW Routan, one of the first vehicles to get the Pentastar. They’re good enough but won’t hold up to shop-grade regular use. Watch the video mentioned below by MotorCity Mechanic to see how they’re used as part of this job; it’s easier to see than it is to describe.
I researched the job first, looking at the Haynes manual for the WK2 Grand Cherokee and sifting through the bullshit online. This two-part video by David Pike, on Youtube as MotorCity Mechanic was thorough and clear.
There are some shortcut techniques that involve loosening the cam caps and wriggling the bad rocker out and the replacement in. Don’t do this. If one is bad, the rest are the same age, so they may be close to failure, too. You’ll be back in there again soon if that happens. You don’t really save anything, either. Once the valve cover is off, it’s not much more work to just do all 12 rockers and reset the counter.
How It Went
Once all the bolted-on stuff is out of the way, it’s not hard to get into the rocker box. Don’t be afraid to get unrelated stuff out of the way so it won’t snarl your work, unless you like to pretend you’re working in the tight confines of a cabin cruiser. Sadist.
I cleaned everything as I was disassembling, and also used a paint marker to leave breadcrumbs for myself about what plugs into where. Valve cover removal was a little belligerent, the factory sealant is very effective. I used some wooden wedges and a 1×2 to carefully pry it up with less chance of breakage.
Inserting the timing tools took a couple tries, but rushing only ensures you’ll do it twice. When it got frustrating, I took a minute for a sip of coffee or to curse the heavens and then got back to it. There’s a large socket needed to remove the cam phasers, and it’s a little nerve wracking lifting the camshafts out, but it’s not hard at all. There will be some gunk on the tonewheels at the back of the cams, but you can just wipe it off; it’s normal.
Inspection
Clean things up and look closely. Cam lobe damage will start on the edges – you’ll see a bright area where the rocker arm has begun to dig in. If you can feel a bump between that area and the rest of the cam lobe with your fingernail, that’s bad. The more pronounced it is, the worse it is. You get to decide what’s acceptable. Luckily, the single problem lobe in this project has very light marking on the lobe — nothing bad enough to require replacement.
I measured the height of the cam lobes with vernier calipers to make sure they hadn’t self-machined themselves undersized, and that was also fine. A note: my engine has had a diet of synthetic oil since brand new, and it shows. This thing was sparkly clean inside with low, if any wear detectable.
The Reverse Of Removal
The new rockers just drop in place, they’re retained by the cam. I opted to leave the original hydraulic lash adjusters in place, as none of them were a problem, but it’s worth considering renewing those, since you’re in there. Budget about $9 each.
I cleaned off the cam journals and they were in great shape. I made liberal use of red assembly lube when putting it all back together, and dunked the new rockers in a bath of oil before installation. Torque it all up, and you’re done, just hit rewind on the process.
Re-sealing the valve cover gasket was a little tricky, and it’s got a little leak, so I’ll need to re-do that. It’s a plastic valve cover with retained fasteners, so it can be difficult to get in place just right without three hands. No big deal, and the chassis gets some rustproofing. There’s some contortion to get the throttle body and hoses back in place, and that dipstick bracket is a jerk.
Success…oops
My heart sank when I first fired it up. The revs went very high, and something wasn’t right. I shut it down quickly, and found the large intake leak caused by the hose I’d missed by the throttle body. I had to pull the upper intake again to get it back in place, but after about 20 minutes of swearing, the engine was purring.
That kind of satisfaction can’t be bought.
A Couple Tips
Have a clean workspace and a table or two. You’re going to need a place to spread out all the stuff you remove, and a work surface for measurement and parts prep.
Get all the tools and parts you might need. Return the stuff you didn’t use; planning for contingencies will avoid stalling progress. That means you should…
- Research obsessively. Find out what’s involved, list out the tools you’ll need, and see if the special tools are really necessary. I needed the right size sockets for the cam phasers, the digital torque meter, etc.
- Get a quote from a shop. This would have been a $2K bill from the Jeep dealer. Other shops may be cheaper, and you need to choose what you want to bite off, and what you’d rather just pay for. My local Jeep dealer is awesome and they turn stuff around done right and quickly. I traded time for cash in this instance, because I was comfortable with this repair, but it’s not for beginners. There have been other jobs on this same car that I opted to just pay for, as expensive as that was.
- Mark stuff as you remove it. I used a paint marker to put dots on things; it’s surprising how quickly you forget stuff.
If You Don’t Wrench
Because Jeep is aware of this issue, you may be able to get some relief from Jeep Cares. The worst they can say is “no,” and they might have a couple of ways to help.
Independent shops are often less expensive than dealer service, as well, so seeking out a recommendation in your area for an upstanding mechanic is another option. Especially if they’re a Jeep specialist.
It’s unbelievable to me how widespread this issue is. It started with the 2012 Jeep Wrangler, and was never addressed until the end of the JK’s production in 2018. Jeep said that the issue was fixed, but I know plenty of people with the current generation of Wrangler that have had the long block redone due to the Pentastar tick. Just yesterday I met someone on the trail who had the passenger side fixed, only to have the driver’s side start ticking shortly after. Seemingly every time I go off-road I run into people who have had to deal with this problem. I’d never touch anything Pentastar-equipped with a 10-foot pole.
It’s really not that big of a deal, other than being a high-labor repair. You get plenty of warning when it starts ticking; get it fixed when it gets noisy and you’ll be OK.
I think that is the issue many people have. High-labor issues aren’t typically cheap.
It’s not a cheap repair, no, but it’s cheaper than most down payments. Vehicles need maintenance and repair sometimes, so you kinda have to budget for it. The plus for this rig is that it’s been paid off for a while now.
I’ve had two Pentastars, one in a 2014 WK2 and another in my 2022 WL. Never had the tick of death in either. I really like this engine. Plenty of power on tap and can tow my 17ft camping trailer no issue. I do wish the gas mileage was a bit better.
Man, that is disappointing, I thought the pentastar v6 was a pretty good engine…. it’s almost like in chasing emissions and reducing friction, they make things way less reliable and as a result create more waste.
I’ve had two vehicles with this motor and never had the tick in either. It’s a solid motor.
Even with the tick, it’s a solid engine. The Hemis wipe their cams when they shunt a roller lifter sideways in its bore, so, that’s worse, in my mind.
I’ll trust the Pentastar before the Hemi. The Hemi will do the exact same thing more often with its MDS lifters due to its poor oiling design. Its camshaft will either get chewed by the same issue or at times, it’ll break off this tiny little nub it has on the end for timing or whatever without any prior warning.
So Chrysler took the worst parts from ’90s Mitsubishi and made it even worse 20 years later 🙂
My old 93 Mitsu 3000GT had the ‘lifter tick’, but that was only because of the hydraulic lifters, the rocker arms were fine. Basically the top oiling holes were very small and would get clogged if someone was using crappy oil or never changed it.
Since I bought my car with 80k miles from the local drug-dealer, who spent most of his free time getting high on Oxy (according to his GF) and had a company car from his day job that was his daily, maintenance on this Mitsu wasn’t on his priorities list.
The nice thing about these Mitsu engines (and the part that Chrysler missed) was that I only had to remove the valve covers, and the rocker arms and lifters would come out WITHOUT removing the cams, so an easy 3-hour job to replace all 24 (half the time was removing the intake on the transverse V6 to get the rear valve cover off, especially with all the plumbing for 2 turbos in there). Also since the rocker arms were not failure-prone, the ticking lifters would not ruin the cams & engine, you could just run like that for years (which is exactly what the prev owner did).
The best fix is to buy any other brand.
This is one of a number of companies that I cannot understand how they remain in business. What we have here is just one example and all of this for such ordinary vehicles. I’d get it if they offered a great experience, were the kind of vehicle nobody else made, were significantly cheaper than competitors, or were at least drop dead gorgeous. The Wrangler or the (now dead) RWD sedans, OK, but pretty much anything else, WTF. Even Range Rovers make more sense to me as they offer a better experience and hardly anyone buying them new seems to keep them very long.
Unfortunately Toyota doesn’t offer anything with a solid front axle in North America!
it’s simply not that big a deal, tho, so you’re good
Culminated with all of the other issues that plague the pentastar, I’d never touch one. The 3.8 is certainly not powerful but I trust it much, much more.
What a well written and practical article. Thanks, Dan Roth!
The HEMI tick is more fatal than the Pentastar tick, from what I have seen on the Internet (and also in real life…).
My Grand Cherokee SRT is coming up on 200k miles and so far no hemi tick. I have been very disciplined about synthetic oil changes every 5k miles though. I do need to replace the rear main seal but otherwise (knock on wood) it has been a solid engine.
You should not idle it too much…that is what actually kills the engine eventually.
Other than that, good you are taking preventative measures to keep the engine running longer…
As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so I always added a few tubes of Frontline Plus to mine at every oil change and I never had any tick issues over the 20,000 miles I put on the car.
You might consider adding heart worm meds at the same time, just to be safe.
Oh fleas!
I read the TSB and the customer complaints. Challengers, Chargers, and 300s aren’t mentioned. How is this possible?
too busy doing burnouts
Why on earth would you use roller bearings on a stressed part like cam rockers. I wonder what other shitty decisions they made on that engine.
A (very) quick search suggests to me this is common. What should it be, what would you recommend instead?
Roller bearings are used in most modern engines without an issue, from his forum name I take it he’s only familiar with pushrods and he’s never seen overhead cams.
Let’s cut him some slack 😀
I am used to heavier duty diesels I guess???? On Cummins for example they tend to use bushings and sleeve bearings instead,even on the 2,8 liter. Also the same on Scania engines. Needle bearings are probably fine,and cheaper in production too,but I don’t think they stand up to the same use.
I have seen a few overhead cam engines as well,but usually with the cam working directly on the hydraulic lifters. I probably got out of the small-car business just in time.
Maybe they used roller bearings on certain VAG products when I was there, I am not sure. I guess if the engines are cheap enough you can just replace them instead of tearing them down.
But yeah,as you mentioned I work mainly on push-rod engines.
I’m with you, even though roller bearings are very common on rocker arms, and are often used as a sales point on aftermarket parts, I would much rather have plain bearings (sleeve/bushing/journal). They are so much more robust for a small penalty in friction. In an ideal world I don’t think ball or roller bearings should be used anywhere in an engine, or in turbos for that matter. But I guess the ball/roller bearings are cheaper and can be made to work acceptably in less heavy-duty applications, so here we are.
TLDR: Don’t drink the Kool-Aid folks, plain bearings are where it’s at.
Sleeve bearings work fine on the crank.
It’s very common!
Just another quality Stellantis product. Good thing they haven’t been building this engine for years….
This engine is pretty tried and true…hard to argue that…
Proper oil changes can fix the Pentastar tick…
No – the tick will happen regardless of how much you change the oil and the grade of oil you use. This engine has had all its oil changes on time since new (I’m the original owner; I’ve had this car since it had like 20 miles on it). It’s not a care issue, and when it starts ticking, oil won’t help, the only fix is to replace the rocker.
Idling can also play a role. If you do not idle it, then the engine can last as well…
At least replacing the rocker in the worst case is better than an engine replacement…
Confession: I actually read this slowly and carefully, and actually grok most of what’s described in the repair process, but I can’t parse the rocker arm images well enough to say what’s actually gone off.
I watched a little of the video and the bearing at the center is what actually nominally contacts the lobes of the camshaft. The bearing (seizes? and) falls out of place, which means the rocker arm drags on the camshaft lobe – tick tick tick tick every time the camshaft spins – and using your camshaft like a wonderfully expensive lathe to turn your rocker arm into metal shavings.
Right?
Pretty much. I had this a few times on rocker arms with bushings as well. The rocker seizes to rock and just makes a mess of the cam lobe or push rod or whatever it sees fit.
Yeah, that’s about it. The needle bearings keep that little roller wheel in the right position. When they fail (they get ground into dust or something) the wheel doesn’t stand proud of the rocker arm assembly, and so that’s what wiinds up contacting the cam lobe.
This sounds like a lack of quality control on the rolling element bearings. Just like all the unitized wheel hub bearings that shoot craps. Where’s Ed Deming now that we really need him?
Have Tracy call up his old buddies at Chrysler Powertrain and get the inside view.
Sounds like it’s a Mopar
Odd, as much as people like to complain about electric cars I’ve got two with over 140K miles and never had this issue…
The valve train on BEVs is especially robust. I’ve not heard of a single failure.
The exhaust systems and O2 sensors last forever on them too!
That’s because Stellantis is a johnny-come-lately to the EV wave. Don’t worry, they’ll make sure this makes it in.
Stellantis, Chrysler, Dodge, RAM, Jeep, tick, tick, tick, you pays your money you takes your chances.
Unrelated to the article… But it’s great to see you here Dan! I still remember listening to you on the Autoblog podcast when I was supposed to be working
Thanks!
My brain hurts reading this. In my case this is a description on how to make a mountain out of a molehill. I am envious of people who read this and say okay no big deal.
I don’t quite understand your comment, could you clarify what you mean? A description of how to make a mountain out of a molehill (so no big deal), but you envy those that read it and say no big deal?
I mean no ill will, I’m just puzzled – I was confused as hell at first myself by the hows and whats of the issue.
Nice job! And he’s a literal shade-tree mechanic.
I was a dealer line mechanic for a long time. I pay good money for meticulous maintenance and 125,000 mile/7 year extended warranties to not have to deal with it. We just traded in my wife’s 2018 Ram 3.6L and it had the dreaded “Cam Position Sensor” error. No tick, so the dealer thought it was just the sensor and took it in trade anyway, knocking $1000 off the value. Traded it in on a low mileage 2021 Jeep Cherokee 3.2L. Our 2019 Ram has the 3.6L and 41k miles but also a 7 year/125k mile warranty. It’s cool people do these things for themselves, but somewhere around the age of 50, you lose the desire to DIY and spending $20 or $30 a month for an extended warranty doesn’t seem too bad.
If you can trust the extended warranty. I read so many complaints that they don’t cover what they claim, or requires so much testing covered by the owner prior to agreeing to the job it is cheaper to pay for the repairs yourself. So why pay for fly by night warranty.
There’s a large difference between a factory backed extended warranty and a third party warranty. The latter are usually junk. The former can be worthwhile for some people or some vehicles. As always, read the fine print.
Busman’s holiday syndrome, I suppose. I just got into modest wrenching at 60 and kinda love to take on jobs I think I might can handle (like water pumps and AC compressors) – but this one is way beyond my ken.
It’s not: a human bolted it together one step at a time—and you can too.
-I rebuilt my first carb when all I had ever done was replace brake pads a couple times and replaced one alternator.
ie: you can dooo eeet!
The craziest thing is about this, is that Chrysler had a huge update for the Pentastar V6 called the “Pentastar Upgrade” engine. It had a completely new valvetrain, with completely different rockers, completely different design and a system very similar to v-tec.
These new engines also rocker/follower failure problems. But ironically it’s not the rollers. There are 3 sets of followers for the cam – two “low lift” roller followers and a “high lift” direct finger follower. The low lift roller followers are fine, but the high lift follower is known to erase the high lift cam lobe.
I saw this issue mentioned on Tiktok and of course all the Pentastar owners were trying to cope in the comments saying ‘Well, just don’t idle it! This only happens to cars that idle too much!’
Of course it was on TikTok.
This would explain why I haven’t heard of this issue with Pacifica Hybrids – it’s just on the gas side of Pacifica Forums that people’s engines are failing.
Fun fact, the Audi 3.0TFSI has the same rocker arm failure mode, only on the 2018’s though. Later engines got a revised rocker arm. Repair steps are similar but the cams actually come out with the cam cover.
If you’re going to do a deep dive repair, get a alldata DIY subscription. The 3 month or a year is peanuts to add to the price of a repair that can nuke the engine if done wrong.
I hope this gives people the nerve to try this repair, I once had a lifter fail in my musclecar and had to pick little pieces of roller bearing and cam scrapings out of the entire engine including the destroyed oil pump. The only thing is, will the replacement parts be any better…or worse? Experience tends toward the latter, unfortunately.
As a veteran of many complex repairs where I had no idea what I was doing going into it including such things as transmission rebuilds and having it be successful, I can’t stress enough to have bench room or just a long board placed across sawhorses where each part and fastener is laid out in the order removed, with a post-it note recording any thoughts or self-suggestions when applicable, along with careful following of the manual when one is available. Especially when reassembly winds up being more than a day-or-two later it can be invaluable.
You should have gone ahead and did the other bank of the engine while you were in there. You already had the cam locking tools, and getting those in there is probably the hardest part of the job.
That was my thought. The parts are cheap. If you’re that far in with all that labour, might as well replace the other ones.
I thought about it. Needed the car back in service after the end of a long weekend. It’s been together for quite a while now and the driver’s side bank hasn’t yet gotten noisy. It’s now just shy of 190K miles.
I’ll get in there again if I need to.