I was not expecting to write another story about the current state of the electric car market this morning until I saw a chart that perfectly depicts what’s going on in the United States and how it differs from the internal combustion engine car market. For all of the talk of consumers being illogical with their car purchases, this chart shows that most electric car buyers are actually making extremely rational decisions when it comes to EV transactions.
Is this data going to make product planners feel any better? No. Carmakers everywhere are confused, and that’s especially true for European automakers who see restrictions coming quickly in Europe and slower in the United States. It’s a weird time, especially at Tesla, where the CEO of the company that benefited greatly from EV subsidies pushed by Democrats suddenly finds himself backing a candidate who seems less sure about EVs.
Today has been a little EV-heavy so, shifting gears to a car with actual gears, Maserati is going to be showing a new MC20-derived car this week in California.
Happy Monday, let’s Morning Dump.
If You See A Non-Tesla EV There’s A Decent Chance It’s Leased
Last time I saw this much burnt orange in one place I was leaving Darrell K. Royal sStadium and may or may not have been wearing a cowboy hat made out of a 24-pack of Lone Star. My memory is a little foggy, but something something OU sucks.
What we’re actually looking at here is a chart from S&P Global Mobility that shows just how much the non-Tesla electric car market is completely dominated by leasing. These are the electric vehicles with the highest lease rates and, as you can see, it covers most of the major electric cars on sale from non-American automakers.
Can you guess what orange is? It’s leasing, of course! The blue is financing and the little bit of red (almost evil Sooner red) is everything else (mostly cash purchases). If you’ve read this website before you’re aware that this makes a lot of logical sense. Why?
- Electric cars are too expensive. The average transaction price for a new electric car is over $60,000, compared to under $50,000 for a new gas or hybrid vehicle.
- This generation of electric cars, especially vehicles like the Mini Cooper, Porsche Taycan, and Toyota Bz4X are simply not that competitive when it comes to total range. Buying one of these vehicles outright means likely overpaying for a quickly depreciating asset.
- The lease deals are insane. If you don’t care that much about the EV you’re getting, there are places where you can lease an EV for under $100 a month.
The why of #3 is important. With electric cars being overpriced, the Biden Administration worked with Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia to pass the Inflation Reduction Act, which puts a credit of up to $7,500 on top of every electric car sold in the United States… assuming your income is below a certain amount. And the vehicle is made in the United States. And it doesn’t cost too much. And the battery doesn’t contain a lot of materials from China. As you might expect, the number of qualifying vehicles is quite small, though it does include the most popular Tesla models, most GM models, and some Ford and Rivian models (as well as PHEVs).
There was a big loophole left, however, and that extended to vehicles used for commercial purposes. Does that mean leasing? The Biden Administration is interpreting it that way, which made departing Senator Manchin super mad. Ultimately, Biden seems to have decided that pissing off Manchin wasn’t as bad as pissing off our many allies in Asia and Europe who were already upset about the IRA.
Being able to toss $7,500 on any EV lease is a big win for automakers like Toyota and BMW whose vehicles would otherwise not qualify either because of where those vehicles were made or because of vehicle cost.
As you can see, it’s working. From S&P:
This increased value proposition of leasing EVs, relative to purchasing them, understandably has driven lease levels to exceptionally high levels. While industry-wide lease mix has only risen slightly in the last several months, the EV lease mix among mainstream products has climbed from 4.9% in Q4 2022 to 63.6% this past April and May; similarly, lease penetration in the luxury EV sector has jumped from 8.6% in Q3 2022 to 42.7% in April and May.
Let’s compare this graph to the overall market:
You can see the overall market for leasing has stayed within a reasonable range, with the obvious downturn that occurred during the vehicle shortages connected to the pandemic. While non-EV leases have rebounded, they’ve yet to come back to historical norms. Luxury and mainstream EVs? Clearly, it’s most of the market for all brands that don’t otherwise qualify for some sort of tax credit.
The only reason the numbers aren’t higher is that GM, Rivian, Volkswagen, and especially Tesla still manage to sell cars. Buying a Solterra new makes zero sense right now. Leasing one? Sure, why not?
It also goes to show that the market for EVs that are not built in America is almost entirely built upon this one tax credit. If that were to go away…
Tesla’s Elon Musk Wants The Credits, Would Rather Not Share Them
We all contain multitudes. We are all bundles of contradictory thoughts and impulses held together by our ability to ignore cognitive dissonance. This seems especially true for Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who is one of the biggest supporters of former President Donald Trump.
Having a carmaker CEO support a Republican presidential nominee isn’t usually a big deal as, I assume, most domestic automotive CEOs over history have supported the Republican candidate. Hell, George Romney, a former CEO of one such company, ran for the Republican presidential nomination. He didn’t get it, but his son Mitt Romney eventually did.
So let’s not act all surprised. What’s a little weirder about this one is that Musk’s company might not have survived or, certainly, been so profitable early on without a huge influx of government subsidies largely passed by Democratically controlled legislatures over the objections of Republicans. Also, former President Trump has not exactly been pro-EV, though hasn’t called for an outright ban. Trump has seemed generally anti-subsidies for EVs, however.
Reuters has a whole write-up on the many contradictions, which includes this bit:
The disparity is hardly the first time that the billionaire entrepreneur – himself increasingly dismissive of subsidies – has sent mixed signals on business and politics.
“Elon tends to say he’s hostile to subsidies while Tesla is gobbling them up like a hungry Godzilla,” said Mike Murphy, a Republican strategist who runs the EV Politics Project, a Los Angeles-based advocacy group that seeks bipartisan support for electric vehicles.
I think there’s a simpler explanation for this from the article:
People familiar with Musk’s management at the carmaker told Reuters his approach to subsidies is pragmatic, a willingness to accept public money if it’s there for the taking. Musk’s willingness to overlook outright Republican opposition to an industry he helped pioneer, meanwhile, signals a broader focus on goals that may not dovetail with the immediate interests of his businesses.
“Tesla is not the endgame for him,” said Andrew Ward, a management professor at Lehigh University, noting Musk’s holdings in sectors ranging from artificial intelligence to space exploration to neuroscience. Musk could “sacrifice some of the short-term interest in Tesla,” Ward added, “if it’ll satisfy the long-term interests of his ambitions.”
This sounds right to me. Musk seems fine prioritizing other companies and beliefs over Tesla, so why should it be any different when it comes to politics? If he can get money, he’ll take it, which is I think how most people operate.
What Do You Do With His Info If You’re A European Carmaker?
Pity the European automaker trying to make any sense of this. I don’t think a 2nd-term President Trump would have the ability to overwrite the Inflation Reduction Act as, frankly, getting laws passed was not his particular forte (he was far more successful redoing the judiciary). Still, as shown above, there’s plenty of room for interpretation in existing law and a Trump administration could certainly attempt to futz with the IRA.
If you’re a European automaker and you’re facing growing incentives to build EVs in Europe, but mixed demand, and an unknown future… what do you do?
From Automotive News, it seems like the answer is to hedge, which doesn’t work for everyone:
Volvo has vowed to go all-electric globally after 2030. But the brand might be ready to retreat on its EV-or-bust strategy as its battery-powered models struggle to find traction in the key U.S. and China markets.
For Polestar, slowing its EV roll is not an option as the brand was launched as a bold bet on a zero-emission future. Polestar’s U.S. lineup will triple this year, with two premium crossovers. Deliveries of the coupe-like Polestar 4 crossover, billed as the brand’s fastest production model, will begin in the fourth quarter.
British automaker Jaguar Land Rover still plans to launch the full array of the EVs it has announced, but the timing has slipped on two Land Rover models.
Fun times.
Maserati To Show An MC20-Shaped Thing At Monterey
I’m excited to be going to Monterey Car Week for many reasons, most of which have to do with hanging out with Jason, Jeff, Beau, David, and the crew. I’m also excited to get a chance to drive the new Maserati MC20 as I haven’t yet had the chance and it looks great.
Maserati will be showing a bunch of MC20 vehicles, including the MC20 Tributo Modenese (pictured here), as well as something new:
The festivities at The Quail, A Motorsports Gathering, will begin with the global unveil of an all-new super sports car derived from Maserati’s MC20 halo vehicle. Kept completely under wraps until the scheduled press conference taking place from 9:12-9:19am PST, Maserati Global Head of Marketing & Communications Giovanni Perosino, together with Maserati Global Head of Design Klaus Busse, will reveal the project for the first time, which stands as a testament to the state-of-the-art pure Maserati racing performance and unique “fun to drive” Italian dynamics the brand is famous for worldwide.
We’ll bring you photos as soon as we get them.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
What better way to start the day than with a little “Hair of the Dog” courtesy of Nazareth.
The Big Question
Last night’s NASCAR race at Richmond ended with Austin Dillon taking out Denny Hamlin and Joey Logano on the last lap. I know rubbin’ is racin’ but is this a little too far?
Okay, but hear me out here: what if one of you bought me a Taycan Turbo GT? I think that’s a logical purchase.
Flush: Yeah, that’s a bit much. Entertaining? Sure. A fair way to win a race? Absolutely not. You shouldn’t be allowed to intentionally wreck people to get them out of your way. Dude even admitted it was the case.
Mmm, Cook Out, though. I could go for a milkshake right about now.
My friends with the electric Audis ended up leasing, then buying when it was clear the mid-cycle refresh didn’t really gain much. They tend to be way further ahead of the curve than I am on tech adoption, but they can afford to be much more than I can.
Yeah—the tech is progressing at such a rate that it seems silly to buy new. Let someone else get stuck with the depreciation.
I just had a chance to watch the end of that race. If you insist on grouping the cars that close and then cutting them loose for a short sprint to the end, this is going to happen.
I’m OK with it. Nobody wants a race to end under a yellow flag.
I always feel like the winner of a Nascar race doesn’t win on his own. He’s allowed to win by the car behind him.
Can you institute some questions before approving new commenters? Here are my suggestions:
I hope the comments section can stay what it has been since this website started (I was here on March 32nd, 2022). There has been a degradation recently, and it is concerning.
I’m pretty sure I’ve got the wrong answers on the first three.
Our site is quite basic compared to other commenting systems. We don’t have a real “grays” or anything like that. There’s just a spam filter and it doesn’t seem to know how to identify spam that well. I’m not even sure we could implement a questionnaire!
So, moderation is pretty manual here. I nuke transphobic, homophobic, racist, etc comments (and yes, there have been all of the above) while Matt handles debates that get way out of control and devolve into outright attacks. That latter one is why some once-frequent commenters are no longer around here.
As of now, the editors believe that making fun of major public figures and politicians is ok, just don’t attack your fellow Autopians in doing so.
I think you all do a good job, but as the old saying goes, you can’t fix stupid. The questions suggestion really was more tongue an cheek. I agree that a light hand in moderation is probably the better choice, I just wish we as commentors would do a better job policing ourselves. I know that I have deleted a few comments that I typed after giving it a second thought. I hope more people do the same going forward. A love a cars and car culture is what this site is about. If we could focus on debating issues related to that and stop making it personal, it would be better for us all. We all have hot takes, but just because we disagree, it does not make us enemy’s. This is one site that I actually enjoy reading the comments normally. There are very few places on the internet where that is true.
It’s really sad to see the comment section starting to be derailed by one boring troll. 🙁
Yes. This was a major asshole move on Dillon’s part here. Earnhardt could get away and did so with such shit stuff. But that was 30 years ago. And before we really understood what happens to the brain and body when this happens.
I really want to see this one recinded but know that will never happen.
So fuck NASCAR. Fuck Austin too.
The Republicans noticed this too. Project 2025 was the result. Don’t count on him being as ineffective at getting things done the second time around.
That depends on which party has the House and the Senate and by how much. Having moves like Mussolini only goes so far.
Yeah. But when you have dance moves like Hitler the equation changes.
Have you seen his moves?
Dance like hypnotizing chickens says Mr. Pop.
Now that is clucking funny!
Please accept this complimentary hood ornament with my compliments.
He should be break dancing in the Olympics…
Bruh, you have a fixation on project 2025 and that colbert video. Consider for a moment that you have been hoodwinked. P2025 is not new, it’s the latest edition in project <insert inaugural year here> the heritage foundation has been doing every election cycle since the mid 80’s and spoiler, it’s the same warmed over reaganism it was back then. The media outlet (or comedian) “reporting” this to you certainly knows this, but the fact they are not telling you it should be a hint as to their motives.
I’ve been reading the Heritage Foundation’s publications since they were founded. This new one is significantly different in scope and method, and that’s why there is such concern about it. The new version includes simply ignoring the legal framework built over the years by bipartisan action, basically saying “sue me later, but too bad: what’s done is done”. Very much how a certain executive operates. It’s a takeover manual, not a renovation guide.
I have mixed feelings about Nascar and RCR reissuing the #3 but at the same time…Dale put quite a few people in the wall too. His reaction was that he was there to win races and not make friends. It ain’t right and I’d rather they win cleanly but it’s not like Austin just invented this strategy. Those drivers have a long memory though and he’s going to get paid back.
Austin Dillon. What he did stinks. I agree with what Logano said. It was a chicken shit move and then he hides behind God and a baby.
I’ve said it before, but I am shocked that NASCAR allowed someone else to put the “3” on their car. You think they’d retire 3 and 43 at least. But I don’t really follow NASCAR, so what do I know.
With the way EVs are depreciating, I think I’d be hard pressed to buy one without a significant discount. And as someone who isn’t eligible for the tax credit for buying, I mean a significant discount from the manufacturer/dealer. If the timing was right, I’d certainly take one of these dirt cheap leases for a commuter car.
The way this works is.
The 3 is a number “owned” and copyrighted by RCR or Richard Childress Racing, and has been so for at least 40 years, probably more. But there are some limiting factors related to that. For example.
Dale was the real number 3 driver for decades. Childress basically retired the 3 number for years but NASCAR rules say that “if you don’t use it you lose it.” And the result was using the 3 number again.
I think NASCAR can retire a number, but with so many great drivers over the years it would become a can of worms and self defeating thing.
Thanks. I know you can retire every star’s number, but if they’d do it for anyone, you’d think it’d be Dale and Petty.
The best way to understand Musk is to remember that bigotry is not rational.
Neither is casting judgement on strangers.
The subject of this discussion has moved on, from stranger to public figure with his hand in the taxpayers pocket.
Thank you for defining bigotry, but I think we all understood the original post.
And neither is unusual as common, typical behavior.
I somewhat look forward to the pricing on the current outgoing leases when they pop up for CPO. Especially if we see solid state batteries in the next 3-5 years, those with short commutes like myself just might get a killer deal on a current short-range model.
you can already get them. I got a 2023 CPO.
True, I should’ve specified that I’d like to watch what pricing will do over time as technology progresses, especially for the non-NACS examples.
Rubbin’ is racin’. Rubbing out, well that’s something else entirely.
Ba-dum-tishhhh.
On the Nascar, that’s like the whole thing the crowd goes to see so that’s fine.
Also just a note on the MD’s lately have been getting a little chart/statistic heavy. I’m not sure if that was a directive or not but personally my eyes are just glazing over reading it and then I shoot down to the question and comments to say something whitty.
I guess if you’re not first you’re last or something witty…
I just leased an EV, got a great deal. Car has been amazingly easy to live with. It can more than recharge from her daily commute plugged into a regular 110 outlet overnight and fast charges in minutes from local Electrify America chargers which are (surprisingly) available and operational.
what’d ya get?
I love charging my leaf on 110v. Slower keeps the cells happy longer.
Ioniq 5. I’m going to put a charger in the garage at some point, I just have to order one that will plug into the 220 outlet I have out there.
How much are you paying at EA?
Free for 2 years.
I think there are limits. Like it’s free for a half hour on a fast charger. But the local fast charger has 4 350kw chargers and they charge very quickly. Like I think it went from ~40% to 90% in less than 20 minutes.
Well get ready for sticker shock once the free charging runs out.
From what I’ve been reading $0.48/kWh is a typical price at EA which according to my EPA calculator, PHEV competitor works out to about $6.50/gallon of gas:
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/how-to-use-electrify-america
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=47501&id=47502&id=38491&id=37309&#tab1
I’ve only used them once just to make sure I had the app set up properly.
It’s used for a ~50 mile round trip commute three days a week and recharges from a wall outlet at ~5 miles / hour. We don’t even need to plug it in every night.
EA charger use probably won’t be too common.
Son of a Bitch….over and over LOL
Is the rubbin too far? In what era?
60’s and 70’s? That’s a tap. Let the drivers fight it out on the track.
80’s and 90’s? Ok but no fighting on the track. Do it in the garage.
00’s and 10’s? Bad boy. Finger wag.
20’s. Nope. You start at the back of the pack next race.
Washington state is offering a $9,000 instant e-vehicle rebate for 36-month leases vs. $5,000 for outright purchase. That doesn’t include the savings from federal tax credit.
Oh, PS, just noticed this is a “low-income” program so a single person’s income must max out at $48K per year, $61K for a couple.
They ain’t offering it, you are funding it.
I’ve already funded Boeing several billion dollars then, I don’t see why I can’t get a car out of the deal, seems to be the way things work
Ah, and yet you haven’t funded them billions. Rather, it’s death by a thousand cuts. A quarter here, a fiver there.
It’s not OK, and yet some people shrug their shoulders and shuffle along.
Now that I drive an EV should I be complaining about subsidies on oil derived fuel?
Maybe not. But, I am concerned about all the derivative plastics in my life.
It doesn’t matter, one way or the other. You do you. 🙂
I will take unwillingly funding a national defense contractor over unwillingly funding a billioners sports palace each and every day.
Especially when the shelf life of said sports place is closer to a carton of milk than to a normal building. Having your hand out for a new one when the construction mortgage on your old one isn’t even paid off yet I’d not a good look
Please tell me we’re talking about the Bengals here. I’d hate to think more than one market fell for this crap.
At some point they ALL fall for that crap!
WAIT A MINUTE, are you saying that my taxes are paying for government programs??
I’m shocked, shocked, I tell you!
No not YOURS!
YOUR taxes go directly to corporate bailouts.
I’d consider an EV lease, but until my job decides whether it is 2 days, 5 days or something in between in-the-office, the lease terms would be a guessing game. Plus, I bought a new car 5 months ago, but not an EV because I needed something that could tow some and take longer trips in.
“I need more cowbell”
SNL skit of BOC lol
Woo hoo. We all get to have our taxes used to subsidize a fetish of a minority of people, only to generate more waste.
There isn’t anything remotely non-hypocritical about mass produced EVs at this point.
Waste, waste, waste. Spend, spend, spend.
Might as well start smoking cigs again.
Depends. What brand?
Old Gold.
Oh hell yeah! Light em up!
I was really hoping you’d say Lucky Strike, cause they had the best liveried F1 car, for a tobacco sponsor.
If you’re going to do it, might as well do it right and go with unfiltered Camel. The Turkish blend gives it a sweeter, milder taste
We always liked the Marlboro Red sponsored paint work.
They were really well done.
The lung cancer part sucks though.
L.S.M.F.T.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
There isn’t a better day to start.
‘Cause then I’m gonna get a cocktail
Vodka and ginger ale
Yeah I’m gonna smoke a cigarette that’s nine miles long
I’m gonna kiss that pretty girl on the tilt-a-whirl
Yeah this old man is goin’ to town
Oh great, we have a new anti-EV fan who likes Elon Musk for who he hates. I wish we could block people on here.
You don’t know me. Painting an imaginary profile of who I am based on your own notions…is weird.
Watch my specials on Comedy Central. I’m clearly not in some lumpable group.
I’m a big fan of your work in the Larry Sanders Show, FWIW
Heads to Google…
WOAH! I love how many different people are Autopian readers!
Janeane Garafolo…Yeah, yeah, that’s the ticket!!
Yeeeeeah, I don’t know her, indeed. (Thus, I have no clue whether this is a screen name or not.)
Who uses their real name?
IDK, man. I’m the long-rumored Elon Musk commenter screenname and this blue bunny seemed believable. </s>
Hang on a sec. We are expected to believe that this is the real, actual Janeane Garafolo writing this? The same person who had a show on Air America radio back in the oughts?
I paint a picture of that chick from Reality Bites, and not Winona Ryder.
What is this “more waste” you speak of? Wasted money? Literal waste products? Because if you’re saying that EVs produce more waste products over their lifespan than ICE vehicles I have bad news for you.
Maybe he is lamenting the tech heavy disposable nature of new EV’s. Made right, the non battery part of EV’s could be decades beyond their current expected lifespan.
We need better repairability.
Again, I have to say, if Musk’s interests and priorities are elsewhere, then why is he still the CEO of the 3rd largest US automaker? An unmotivated/absentee CEO sort of seems like the sort of thing Tesla shareholders should maybe care about?
If an “absentee” owner is doing rather well compared to “legacy” owners, that says more about those that are failing, yeah?
Is he? Net income was down 45% last quarter, and was down 55% in the 1st quarter. They had an OK 2023, a good 4th quarter, but a bit uneven the rest of the year, but 2024 hasn’t been all that great
Whoopdedoo.
I’m not gonna sit here and defend the man as a human, but Tesla is the unchallenged king of EVs in the western hemisphere. They will continue as such. You can talk shit about them all day, but it ain’t changing the numbers. Don’t hate just because it’s “cool”. Tesla prints money alongside all the other intermingled companies.
And, believe it or not, their stuff works, and we are better off for it. Just ask those astronauts stuck on the ISS because Boeing is…
Tesla’s job is to generate a return on investment for their shareholders, and they are not doing that job as well as they traditionally have, when that happens, ordinarily there is some discussion about whether a change in leadership is warranted, especially when that leadership seems to be losing focus on the core product (the core product that generates ca $20 billion in revenue per year and should therefore still warrant quite a lot of attention, regardless of what other new ventures are on the horizon). They did well on the ascendency when they had fresh products and little direct competition, but now they have a rapidly aging product line and are going up against increasingly competent rivals for the first time ever and are not really hitting back in a serious way.
I have no idea what the ISS and SpaceX has to do with the situation, SpaceX is an entirely separate company. Did people constantly bring up Case New Holland when talking about Fiat Chrysler, just because the two shared the same CEO?
I’m not picking a fight here, buuuut, aside from the Chinese (which cannot be sold here), who exactly is a competent rival at the moment when looking at sales?
Those 2000+ Lyrics, or the 8000+ Hyndais aren’t exactly breaking through the barn doors.
The age of the fleet means something, I suppose. That hasn’t really disrupted the Ziplock industry, though, for example.
Tesla’s EV market share slipped from 65% in 2022 to 55% in 2023 to 49% in July 2024, they’re at about a 4% share of the entire auto market. Competition is clearly stepping up and eating into them. I would argue that share of total market is more important than share of EV market, since 100% of the market will be EVs within about 8 years or so, but, even then, Tesla slipped from 5.03% at the beginning of 2023 to 4.2% by the end of the year, and is at about 4 even right now
“…since 100% of the market will be EVs within about 8 years or so,…”
Do you really believe that?
I believe we’re up to like 11 states banning new ICE sales by 2035, which is enough of the USDM to effectively constitute a ban on the whole country, I don’t believe economies of scale would be enough to make ICEs profitable by selling them in only part of the country, especially if California isn’t in that part. Unless any of those states walk that back, then, yes, it will happen, it’s the law of the land
Unpopular laws change with every election – there is no way that new ICEs will be outlawed in eight years.
I’ll happily eat my words if it happens…
We’ll see, I suppose, but I disagree that ICE bans are unpopular with the general public.
Also, in several cases, it has been done as regulatory rule making by an executive branch agency, rather than through legislation, so that sort of shields it from the electoral process
I respect your take, but to say that EVs will capture the full 96% of sales that they currently do not have is bold.
That seems pretty difficult to do.
If the market is reduced in size, it becomes a lot easier, EV sales don’t have to grow to equal the current market size, the market can also be reduced to match EV volume. Both means accomplish the same goal. Either way, new ICE vehicles can’t be sold after a specific date, if there aren’t electric equivalents to replace them, then those are just sales that don’t happen anymore
So, supply is reduced relative to demand? That doesn’t seem like a good thing for anyone.
Maybe not, but a ban is a ban, regulators make the rules,everyone else has to either adapt to them or die.
I, for one, didn’t vote for that or want that. I mean, if you are all on board on this, by all means. Good for you.
Furthermore, I don’t agree and would rather it not be so. Who are these “regulators” that are presented to be more knowledgeable than any of us?
There is a far deeper agenda than just “EVs are the future!” Lots of large bank accounts are involved, and none of them end with my last four digits.
No Buena.
I’m not necessarily in favor of it, I’m just realistic as to the way things work
LOL – Tesla is riding momentum it built up over the last decade, but the collapse is coming fast. Their car models now look and feel dated, and the cybertruck is an epic failure of a vehicle that will be drowning Tesla in warranty and liability debt very soon.
They can easily solve the warranty problems by electing to do fuck-all about it, which they actually do on occasion
I’m not sure I agree Tesla is doing much better than the “legacy” owners.
GM and Tesla have both discovered the hard way there really isn’t much of a market for $100,000 electric trucks. Hummer and Cybertruck both appear to be busts. GM is probably in a better position to absorb that failure, though.
Ford apparently gave up on Quality is Job 1 years ago, but Tesla also has recall issues and FSD is years late and likely never going to live up to its promise (certainly not with the older cars – their sensor set isn’t adequate, though that’s just my personal opinion; perhaps they’ll surprise me).
I’d maybe give Tesla a step up on Stellantis, but that’s about it. Chrysler has pretty much been a shit show since Iaccoca bowed out.
As for the current fascination with Robo Taxi, I’ll believe that is viable when I see it. It also depends on reliable automated driving, and I think that’s still at least a decade away. (Note: It’s always going to be a decade away.)
I don’t disagree on the latter points, but the profits bear the truth.
Name one other company that is making money on EVs.
Is Tesla? How much of their balance sheet is coming from carbon credits? I’m pretty sure for a while there that was the only thing that was keeping them out of the red.
Perhaps they have been profitable without those recently (I haven’t examined the numbers), but the CT fiasco is going to be expensive to unwind and sedan sales have fallen through the floor recently. I think the rest of this year and the foreseeable future are going to be pretty rough for them.
You might be right. However, they will still be profitable because we are paying for it. All of us. Like it or not, the Average Joe is non-consensually consenting to this marginally beneficial 8th grade science fair.
In 32 years we have taken the national debt from 4 trillion to 35 trillion dollars when it took 63 years to get to 4 trillion (starting at the 1929 market crash and ensuing depression).
You’d think that we would at least not add to it by paying middle income earners to buy a product that may or may not produce a NET benefit. Hell, even if it does the negatives of adding all the debt outweighs any gains.
If we want to get the debt under control, we need tax increases. Unfortunately the last administration pushed through significant tax cuts, leading to the fastest accumulation of debt under any presidency in history.
Yes and no. One thing I can’t blame Trump for is the spending on COVID which in one year added $5T to the debt over and above the debt accumulated in the normal budget. Should we not have done that? I don’t know that I can argue that.
Lowering taxes often results in increased tax revenue. Not always but often. It definitely happened under Reagan and then he blew it all on increased defense spending.
If you raise taxes to an amount that even addresses the deficit it will crush the economy much less taking anything off the debt.
The absolute only way out of the debt is a massive reduction in the size of the federal govt. Spending as a percent of GDP is killing us. I don’t know how you do it since everyone will panic and vote anyone out of office that tries. I honestly think the country is doomed and the debt is just going to eat it alive, slowly.
The rest of the world is in for a tough time when the dollar collapses as well. I’ve personally given up hope anything will be done and now just hope that I’m old enough to make it through retirement before all my savings are worthless.
If the Federal government showed the slightest inclination to use those tax increases to actually pay down the debt, then that might be true. But they never, ever do. Tax increases are always about paying for Program XYZ, never a boring “lets pay some more of your monthly income to reduce our future national interest payments.”
The debt will be dealt with the same way it was dealt with coming out of WWII- reduce government spending, grow the economy (and hence tax base), and retire high-interest notes in favor of lower ones (this is a problem with interest rates being higher at the moment).
Or, ya know, Covid happened, and we gave the “Big 3” companies, along with each one partnering with a mid-tier and small tier supplier, to make vaccines and ventilators, when we couldn’t even go to the beach with our dogs.
That’s where the Billions went, and it didn’t do a damn thing. People still died every day.
4 Trillion was small potatoes versus what the world demanded of it’s “Boss (USA)”. Our leaders made dumb decisions and everyone else followed the money.
To be fair there was a global pandemic that we really didn’t have full understanding of how to deal with and most everyone was trying to attack it with whatever we had available.
In the US that means mobilizing a large manufacturing center. We were preparing for the unknown which means a lot of the actions may prove unnecessary. It wasn’t an ideal situation for any of us to go through but I don’t think we need to invent a lot of conspiracies to explain a global reaction to an illness we weren’t qualified to define or understand.
I agree about the hyper-reaction part, but it was well known. Even if you and me weren’t privy.
Either way, tomorrow is supposed to be sunny and windy, so, that’s ideal sailing weather (for the captain of whichever boat I rent). 🙂
Yeah, if only we had a dedicated govt org specifically created to deal with such an event! Oh, wait.. we had one Obama put up.. only to be dismantled by some screaming dude with a strange orange complexion, because ‘government waste’.. but pay no mind to the corporate tax cuts adding trillions in debt
Corporations don’t pay taxes. Never have. Never will. Individuals pay one way or another.
Sure, it’s only because ‘corporations don’t pay taxes’ that they somehow got cut from 35% to 21%, and then that translated into a sharp decline in tax revenue because.. reasons?
Taxes can be levied all day but corporations don’t pay them. They get paid by us one way or another.
You can go 10% or 90% tax but they all get paid by you.
Taxes levied on a corporation get paid in (basically, I am simplifying here) three different ways:
Higher prices
Lower wages/fewer jobs
Lower returns for shareholders
I’ll let you guess which of these is least likely.
It’s time we stopped trying to pretend we can get corporations to pay “their fare share.” They never have and never will. It just makes the ignorant feel better about sticking it to some unnamed bad guy in their world view.
Very, very valid point. You’re absolutely right about that.
(And just for clarity, no, I’m not “that” Rob Schneider. Personally, I think you’re much funnier that either of us.)
I generally agree with your points, but I will say, I don’t think the Hummer EV was made to make a profit. I’ve seen it said that it was made to get “ICE/truck guys into EVs”, to show them EVs could be cool–to act as a halo car.
Not only that, but by law the officers of the company have a fiduciary duty to act in the interest of shareholders.
If it can be proven that Elon Musk sabotaged Tesla’s business operations in any way to prop up another of his companies, that could open the door to lawsuits.
Ding ding, fiduciary duty.
Welllll, except Elon. There is an exception to every rule when you are rich.
Well, pretty well all corporate executives are rich, but there’s rich, and then there’s “I can buy all of North Korea, seven times ” rich
The rich do seem to have a, ah, “trump” card.
No, it’s “fiduciary duty” does not mean what people think it means. “Acting like an asshole I don’t like” is not a breach of fiduciary duty, nor is anything covered by business judgement (ie- being bad at running a business is not a crime). These days, it comes down to making fraudulent statement about material or financial circumstances of the business, self-dealing and undisclosed conflicts of interest, or insider trading (lol- good luck getting the SEC to do a thing about that).
Last night’s finish was a joke, dumping the 22 was one thing and if it was just that we would have all probably gotten over it by now but immediately right hooking the 11 into the wall after that was too far. Dillon should have been black flagged and not given the win but we all know he’s going to at most get a slap on the wrist fine and a points penalty that isn’t going to affect anything all while NASCAR endlessly uses a replay of the finish in ads for the next few weeks.
I’m all for rubbin is racing in NASCAR but that was more than just rubbin, that was how I used to play NASCAR Thunder when I was in 4th grade.
Yes, all the True Fans said “Hey, Dale Senior used to do the same thing!” Only he didn’t. Rubbing fenders or “taking the air off his spoiler” is one thing, but a deliberate dive-bomb maneuver is another. Dillon would have ended up in the wall all by himself if he hadn’t used Logano’s car to slow him down. And, conveniently, muscle him out of the way.
NASCAR wouldn’t do anything to upset one of its favorite Paw-paws (Childress and Gibbs). However, you can bet if either Logano or Hamlin so much as scratch little Austin’s wrap-job next weekend, penalties will fly.