Home » Volkswagen And Jeep Workers Get A ‘Christmas Miracle’

Volkswagen And Jeep Workers Get A ‘Christmas Miracle’

Christmas Miracle Jeep Vw Ts2
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It’s been a bleak end of the year in some ways, so I’m going to try to cheer people up with today’s Morning Dump. Volkswagen’s union is calling the plan to eliminate 35,000 “future” jobs a “Christmas Miracle.” This means no plant closures or massive wage cuts, which is amazing, with most of the concessions coming to future jobs. The same vibe is continuing in Ohio, where Stellantis has reversed its position on job cuts to a Jeep plant there, for reasons seemingly having to do with the loss of one specific employee.

Did Elon Musk play a role in convincing President Trump and the Republican Party to nearly shut down the government in exchange for Tesla getting the ability to ship jobs to China? This is the claim that some are making and it’s hard to counter.

Vidframe Min Top
Vidframe Min Bottom

Ford’s had quality issues this year, and it seems like the brand is trying to fix those woes, although the speed that it’s been improving doesn’t seem fast enough for CEO Jim Farley, who is making more moves to try to lower warranty costs and improve his company’s reputation.

Volkswagen Workers Don’t Get The Worst Outcome After 70 Hours Of Negotiation

Volkswagen Plant Wolfsburg, Golf Production

It was clear that Volkswagen and its German union, IG Metall, wanted to get a deal done ahead of Christmas. What was not clear was how that was going to happen given that Volkswagen wanted to close a bunch of plants, and workers, understandably, didn’t want that.

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Volkswagen is far from the only major carmaker to find itself building uncompetitive products, struggling in China, and realizing it overcommitted to an EV future that isn’t going to happen without a lot of government support. But Volkswagen is a German company and that puts it in a uniquely tough position. The country’s government is in flux, and, by virtue of being in the EU, has to abide by some rules it wouldn’t necessarily make if things were entirely up to German leaders. General Motors faces a lot of these same challenges, though it has a strong domestic market it can fall back on to support itself. Volkswagen doesn’t, as Europe’s car sales have faltered this year.

Continuing to employ a lot of people, expensively, for years to come to make cars people don’t want or can’t afford isn’t a great strategy. This means that Volkswagen had to find a way to save money. The company’s opening bid was just to close a bunch of plants which, in some ways, is probably the most logical path forward. However, the complicated politics of Germany (the German state of Lower Saxony has a large voting share within VW) makes it difficult to close plants, especially given the rise of the far-right AfD party in exactly the places where job cuts would only bolster that party’s position.

The solution? Volkswagen is going to eventually take 700,000 vehicles out of production in Germany, albeit slowly and in a way that everyone involved hopes will avoid unnecessary pain, as Reuters explains:

VW said the deal would allow savings of 15 billion euros ($15.6 billion) annually in the medium term and saw no significant impact on its 2024 guidance. While there were no immediate closures, VW said it was looking into options for its Dresden plant and repurposing the Osnabrueck site, including looking for a buyer. Some production would be shifted to Mexico.
Vehicle production would shut at the Dresden plant by the end of 2025. VW AG’s staff will not get raises under a collective wage agreement over the next four years, while some bonuses will be scrapped or reduced.
Production at VW’s Wolfsburg plant, its biggest, will be cut to two assembly lines from four.
“No site will be closed, no one will be laid off for operational reasons and our company wage agreement will be secured for the long term,” said works council chief Daniela Cavallo.
Volkswagen is about as weird a company, from a governmental structure, as you can imagine. A lot of this goes back to the fact that VW was remade by the British authorities post-WW2 and, remade again in the ’60s under the protectionist “Volkswagen Law” that attempted to shield the company in a global marketplace. Put all that together and you end up with a company that has the Porsche-Piech families, Lower Saxony, private investors, and workers themselves all a part of the equation, albeit with whacky voting shares. For instance, Qatar holds 10% of the company and Lower Saxony owns about 12%, but Qatar gets 17% of votes while Lower Saxony gets a 20% voting share. The Porsche-Piechs have a whopping 53.3% voting share (effectively controlling the company) with a little less than a third of the shares.
This complexity does force everyone to work together and compromise to make a deal, but it also means that getting any sort of deal is always compromised. Will this latest plan do enough to help out Volkswagen in the long run? It’s not onbious to me that it’s sufficient, especially if Germany is to truly de-industrialize.
Ah, crap. I said the “D” word. The deeper, meta-point you need to grok about Germany in order to understand what’s happening with Volkswagen was that the so-called “German model” for the economy was built on a Thomas Friedman-y, Earth-is-flat neo-liberal view of globalization that couldn’t survive an actual crisis, let alone a bunch of them back-to-back. This was built on a curious bipartisan embrace of this view in America, access to cheap Russian gas, and China’s temporary willingness to make everyone else rich for a while in exchange for industrializing itself.
Successive crises in the Middle East, a global pandemic, the resurgence of far-right populism, and basic economic principles all conspired against Germany. Now it doesn’t make as much sense for Germany to be an industrial powerhouse while China still exists (or, conversely, it makes a lot of sense for Germany to try to re-industrialize itself). Even worse, BYD and Tesla tag-teamed to take over much of the important domestic car market in China.
I’m not alone in thinking this, as a columnist for Germany’s Manager Magazine brings up this tough point:

This society is shocked to discover that the economy and value creation do not run on their own, but require continuous investment and recurring phases of reform.

The poor economic situation is currently the number one issue in Germany, as the latest DeutschlandTrend survey by the Infratest dimap  institute shows. At the last federal election three years ago, the problem priorities were completely different: At that time, the issues of the environment and climate, immigration, social justice and Corona dominated the political mood. Now the pollsters are talking about an “economized problem agenda”. Three quarters of those surveyed are worried about Germany as a business location. Tragically, they do not believe any party has outstanding economic policy skills. It is questionable how the country is supposed to free itself from the pessimism trap under these conditions.

A lot of my family is German, and the pessimism lately on the WhatsApp group has reached historic proportions, even for Germans. People clowned on former European Central Bank President Mario Draghi for his report on European competitiveness, mostly because it seemed impossible to make the changes he asked for given the current appetite for change and meta-governmental structure. I don’t think he was wrong, though. Germans are savers. That’s what they do. Other Europeans do as well.

That’s exactly the wrong response to this crisis. As Draghi’s report pointed out: When European inventors invent things, they go somewhere else to pay for them and make them. Why? Europe doesn’t invest enough in itself. If Germany is to de-industrialize it has to be able to do something else, and it’s not clear what this is. It’s also not clear that de-industrialization is going to work, especially as countries like the United States start to re-industrialize. I don’t know what Germany is supposed to do, and I don’t know that any German companies or politicians have articulated a clear enough strategy for the future.

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The “Christmas Miracle” of this deal is good for about six years, and then I fear that Germany is going to need another miracle.

Jeep Trades One Employee For About 1,100 Others, At Least For Now

Carlos Tavares Lovits
Source: The Wedding Singer

Both the outgoing and incoming American administrations are saying they want to bring more industrial jobs back to the country. If that’s the case, the last thing you want to do is close a bunch of plants here in the United States. Of course, that’s what then-Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares, pictured above, tried to do.

This included cutting about 1,100 jobs at Ohio’s Toledo South Assembly Plant, which is home to the Jeep Gladiator. Now that Tavares is gone, Jeep has decided to reverse course, at least according to the UAW, via Toledo’s WTOL:

On Friday, a Stellantis spokesperson confirmed the postponement and that employees would “return to work as scheduled after the new year.” Stellantis said the decision was made as the company “continues to reassess its strategy in North America.”

Another letter from the UAW on Friday stated that “the number for indefinite layoffs has been reduced to 125.”

“Who knows what it’ll look like when we get when we get to February, but, right now it looks like 125 people,” UAW Local 12 Bruce Baumhower said. “Then you think about all our suppliers, we had another 1,000 of them that were going to get laid off on top of the 1,100 from the initial announcement, and now, they’ll all be saved, too, if this all comes through the way we think it’s going to.”

Baumhower added that Stellantis is offering a retirement incentive that could further reduce the new number.

There’s a lot here that’s unresolved, and it’s not like the Gladiator is going to be a lot more popular, but maybe there’s another Jeep product that slots in here eventually? Either way, it’s good news for some workers in Ohio.

Democrats In Congress Claim Elon Musk Got President-Elect Trump To Threaten Shutting Down The Government To Help Tesla’s Business Dealings In China

April 11, 2022, Brazil. In This Photo Illustration The Official Profile Of Elon Musk On The Social Network Twitter. The Billionaire Bought 9% Of Twitter, Investment Of Us$ 3 Billion.
Illustration: Depositphotos.com

Writing about Tesla CEO Elon Musk is not as much fun as it used to be. There are too many sites, and people, who get knee-jerk mad OR excited about everything Musk does, and one hint in either direction will eventually lead them to the conclusion that you’re for them/against them. Talking about Elon Musk sometimes feels like drinking ocean water when you’re dying of thirst.

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I trust you, dear readers, and I enjoy the back-and-forths I have here, whether its with people who agree with me or the ones I disagree with as I learn a lot from both. This is a valuable aspect of this site, and I do not want to ruin it with politics. On the other hand, we are in the historically unique (I think, please tell me I’m wrong) situation of an automotive CEO (or, really, any CEO) who is leveraging his connection with a President to make some wild changes to the government. Imagine if Robert McNamara was CEO of Ford back when he drove us further into the Vietnam War; that’s as close as I can get.

There are three unresolved conflicts of the President Trump-Elon Musk tie-up:

  • It’s likely, given their histories as dealmakers, that both think they’ve got the upper hand over the other one.
  • Musk builds electric cars, Trump doesn’t seem to think much about them.
  • Musk cannot make his future Tesla plans work without the Chinese government, which was President Trump’s favorite target.

My sense is that the first conflict will resolve itself on its own, with either one swallowing their pride or a huge blow-up. The second conflict plays well for Musk because he can afford to ingest a little poison and his competition cannot. The third one seems more intractable to me and, yet, maybe there was a solution this week.

As always happens around the end of the year, Congress was in a position of having to pass a short-term spending bill or force the government to close around Christmas. There was a bipartisan deal in the table which included a bunch of random stuff, including a provision that would require screening of investment in critical technology (like AI) in China. This is the kind of provision that few people get upset about in Congress because of historically bipartisan concerns over China.

Right as the bill was about to be voted on, both President-elect Trump and Elon Musk railed against the deal. President-elect Trump wanted to raise the debt ceiling for a few years, ostensibly so he could continue the large tax cuts that defined his first term. I guess another bipartisan belief is that “debt” is only bad when it pays for something you don’t like. However, there are a few die-hards on the Republican side of the government who don’t ever want to raise the debt ceiling, and Republicans have an extremely narrow majority and either need Democrats or every single Republican to get anything done.

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What did Musk want? According to this letter from Democratic Representative Rosa DeLauro, it was to protect Tesla’s investments in China:

This outbound investment provision was agreed to after months of bipartisan, bicameral negotiations and years of advocacy from Members of Congress. It would have kept innovation and manufacturing in semiconductors, artificial intelligence (AI), quantum computing, and other cutting-edge technologies in the United States and prevented wealthy investors from continuing to offshore production and U.S. intellectual property into China – benefiting only their bottom lines and the Chinese Communist Party, while hurting American workers and threatening our national security. Importantly, many of the innovations this bill would have protected were developed with the help of taxpayer dollars – all the more reason for these innovations to remain at home and not be used to fuel adversaries’ technological and military capabilities.

It is no surprise, then, that “President” Musk does not want to see a funding deal containing this provision be signed into law. Musk’s investments in China, and ties with its government, have only grown over the last few years – alongside his growing involvement in American politics. Musk’s car company, Tesla has poured billions of dollars into investments in China, particularly its “gigafactory” in Shanghai. The Shanghai plant is Tesla’s largest car manufacturing facility – the Chinese gigafactory produced about 50 percent of Tesla’s global automobile output over the last year,1 and Tesla drew nearly a quarter of its global revenue in 2023 from sales of Chinesemade vehicles from the Shanghai factory.2 And there are signs that Musk plans to double down on his company’s investments in China – as Tesla awaits the Chinese government’s approval of its “Full Self-Driving” technology, Musk noted that “the value of Tesla lies primarily in its plans for autonomous driving.” And in May of this year, Tesla broke ground on a new $200 million factory to manufacture large batteries critical to its electric vehicle supply chain – down the street from its Shanghai car factory. Notably, proponents of regulating U.S. investment in China have advocated for the inclusion of large battery manufacturing in the list of technologies subject to outbound investment screening.

Rep. DeLauro is far from the only person accusing Musk of doing this, and the allegations are getting a lot of attention in the media.

Is this what Musk truly wanted? It’s impossible to know for sure unless he comes out and says it, but there are some reasons to believe this is the case. Discounting what Democrats say because, you know, they don’t like Elon Musk, it’s clear that Musk needs China. Not only does the company sell a ton of cars there, but Musk has been courting China’s government in order to try to build out his self-driving car capabilities with a huge pool of consumers.

Additionally, Musk got exactly what he wanted. President-elect Trump of course didn’t get his debt-ceiling increase. Not much of the bill actually changed, but this provision was removed from the final bill. Trump looks weaker here, as does House Speaker Johnson, who looked to be cruising to easy reelection to Speaker in January and is now facing a potential revolt with some even suggesting Musk as Speaker of the House.

There’s an old truism about the Internet that often applies to Musk, which is that when people are right they’ll refute you, and when they’re wrong they’ll just make fun of you. I will therefore end by pointing out that Musk made fun of Rep. DeLauro on his media platform X.

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Ford: We’re Still Working On That Quality Thing

Flat Rock Assembly Plant
Photo credit: Ford

Ford CEO Jim Farley has made the improvement of quality at the company a huge issue for The Blue Oval, going so far as to delay the rollout of the F-150 until issues were addressed. The company is still spending a ton of money on recalls and fines, though mostly for cars built before 2021 it says.

What’s the next move? Appointing a new quality chief. From the Detroit Free Press:

Ford Motor Co. is appointing a new head of quality, the company confirmed Wednesday, as the automaker works to reverse its industry-topping record of recalls and reduce warranty costs.

The automaker will move control of its quality team from Jim Baumbick to a new leader who has not yet been announced, as Baumbick takes on the responsibility of EV programs.

Baumbick, who has led quality since late 2022, will oversee the entire vehicle programs team, which focuses on keeping the costs and timing of vehicles on track, now including EVs under his supervision as well as gasoline-engine vehicles.

If Ford can save money on recalls it’ll be a big improvement to the company’s bottom line and reputation.

What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD

I realized this year that “Christmas Wrapping” by The Waitresses was actually one of my favorite modern Christmas songs. It’s so ’80s and I love it.

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The Big Question

What car are you most looking forward to in 2025?

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World24
World24
28 days ago

TBQ: I’m looking forward to the new Charger! Only thing that interests me tbh.
Besides the Wagoneer S’s rear spoiler thing.

Ana Osato
Ana Osato
1 month ago

Jeep drivers once liberated the lands from VW drivers xD

Last edited 1 month ago by Ana Osato
Utherjorge, as this site circles the bowl
Utherjorge, as this site circles the bowl
1 month ago
Reply to  Ana Osato

awesome

Freelivin2713
Freelivin2713
1 month ago

HAPPY FESTIVUS TO EVERYONE!!!
“Festivus…for the rest of us”

“I got a lot of problems with you people and you’re gonna hear about it!”

[Setting: H&H Bagel Shop]

(Kramer is picketing out side.)

KRAMER: “Protect Festivus! Hey, no bagels, no bagels, no bagels…”

AlterId has reverted to their original pseud
AlterId has reverted to their original pseud
1 month ago

It’s not new, but if I had a job I’d be looking hard at getting a Mach-E before the end of the year, what with 0% financing for up to six years (longer than I’d be comfortable with, but) and the whole free charger with standard installation and $5,000 on the hood. I don’t see anything in the purchase breakdown about the tax credit (does it not qualify?), but it’s there in the lease breakdown. It’s a tempting price for something that’s not a Tesla, and since my uncle is a Ford retiree, I still may be able to get an X-plan discount through him (I did that for my Mazda at the end of 2008.)

But no job at the moment, so there’s the e-bike and maybe the Grand Marquis that I still haven’t gotten registered or inspected or anything, so nothing.

It’s really not all that wonderful a life, Frank Capra.

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
1 month ago

Here is the thing, Matt,

It doesn’t matter what happened when John Dodge was around, or something to that effect, there is no comp for 2024. So, If Millard Fillmore was tight with the fowl industry…interesting, but not relevant.

I know you know this (since you have worked in politics), that it is pretty disingenuous to suggest that it was a bi-partisan bill, other than everyone wanted to give themselves a fatty pay raise.

The reality is that the bill was full of nonsense add-ons. Including whatever stuff was written in regarding autos, and it wasn’t just Congress shutting it down. It was “normal” people that were pissed. Is the one that passed better? Probably not, but it kinda had to be better than diarrhea, right?

Nobody likes change. All the bitching and moaning about Trump and Elon (Dear Community Members, please insert your own third-grade nickname here) is foolish. What we have had hasn’t worked.

If it takes a couple of new Billionaires (when has it never?) to shake shit up and go a different direction, that might work out? Fuck it, let them have a go.

The ones before sucked balls, Chopper. Like Mitsubishi had ushered in until Honda said to give them that husk.

Last edited 1 month ago by Get Stoney
Wuffles Cookie
Wuffles Cookie
1 month ago
Reply to  Get Stoney

Agreed, that section was one of Matt’s worst. He’s full-in on the narrative that Musk is somehow president, rather than a dude who said something on twatter and a bunch of people agreed and called their elected representatives. We have a word for that- democracy.

Also, holding up DeLauro as some sort of China hawk is laughably ignorant. She’s the ranking Dem on the appropriations committee, a position she holds thanks to being one of Pelosi’s key allies and funnily enough was the Chair in 2022 when the Omnibus funding bill was roundly criticized for having, wait for it, a bunch of handouts for Chinese entities. So here’s a truism to respond to your truism- leftists always project. DeLauro is just pissed that Musk’s china investments got handouts and hers didn’t.

Matt, do better. If you’re going to wade into politics this heavily (though I think we would prefer you didn’t), at least have some semblance of nuance instead of acting like one of the ladies on the View.

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
1 month ago
Reply to  Wuffles Cookie

Lol. Not to talk shit, but Matt isn’t afraid of skewing reality based on his particular history/views instead of objective truth.

That’s all good! Spice of life and all that from an off angle viewing of the Super Bowl.

I read it like Hunter S. never had to clean the chalkboard for cheating on a crossword in third grade.

Last edited 1 month ago by Get Stoney
Horizontally Opposed
Horizontally Opposed
30 days ago
Reply to  Wuffles Cookie

Matt’s delivery (and DeLauro’s alleged sour loser attitude) aside, is the premise true or not? Because from where facts landed, it looks to be true. The delivery doesn’t change the fact that Musk played the Congress like a fiddle with Trump’s political muscle.

Freelivin2713
Freelivin2713
27 days ago
Reply to  Get Stoney

You’re completely delusional…Melon Husk/Leon Mush dipshit should be in prison w/ Trump and rich jerkoffs shouldn’t be in w/ the government and given control to do whatever they want. Melonhead shouldn’t have anything to do w/ government or have a say, he’s already so busy in private business selling stans trash EV’s so conflict of interest

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
24 days ago
Reply to  Freelivin2713

I’m delusional, yet, you are the adult using 3rd grade “pick on me” nicknames? lol.

Grow a pair.

Freelivin2713
Freelivin2713
24 days ago
Reply to  Get Stoney

Ha ha how original…couldn’t think of anything else? I said it on purpose since you asked for a 3rd grade nickname and since it’s true- melonface is a douchebag and everybody but the stans know he’s a terrible person (alien?) Duh, ya dumb fool ha ha

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
24 days ago
Reply to  Freelivin2713

Neat.

Freelivin2713
Freelivin2713
24 days ago
Reply to  Get Stoney

Yup, it is!

Oldhusky
Oldhusky
1 month ago

1) More trash talking of Thomas Friedman around here pleaseandthankyou.

2) It is not at all unprecedented for U.S. government to be run nearly directly by wealthy industrialists and capitalists. This was basically the situation during the decade or so lead up to the Great Depression and the immediate response to the crash. A lot of government and electoral reform happened to dig us out of a basically oligarchic democracy. It’s unsettling to see us going back.

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
30 days ago
Reply to  Oldhusky

 “It’s unsettling to see us going back.”

We can’t go “back” because nothing has changed since the “beginning”. The only difference is who is making the phone call to whom. The structure has been the same for quite some time. It’s just a matter of if you prefer to let it go to voicemail.

Canopysaurus
Canopysaurus
1 month ago

If Ford cannot improve its quality control in the near term, I foresee another Farley living in a van down by the river.

Everyone better hope Germany comes up with viable economic solutions because we all know what their historical tendencies are when the country falls into hard times.

In addition to the government’s response to Musk’s China interests and investments, keep an eye on NASA. That’s a DOGE bogie if ever there is one and there’s already rumblings that its long awaited moon return program is going to be scrapped. Too bad there’s not a commercial company that could pick up the slack.

What new car do I look forward to in 2025? Sadly, I can’t think of any. Have to get back to you in that.

Vetatur Fumare
Vetatur Fumare
28 days ago
Reply to  Canopysaurus

I am not too worried about Germany throwing their weight around in a inter-war fashion – that was a direct result of significant economic pain directly relating to an unwise Versailles treaty, reparations, and various other penalties. AfD is problematic, but they are not looking outward.

TXJeepGuy
TXJeepGuy
1 month ago

I’m looking forward to a used Honda Accord 2.0T once I can get my lemon claim settled on this 4XE.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
1 month ago

What car are you most looking forward to in 2025?

Something cheap with amazing energy efficiency, low NVH, great visibility with knobs, buttons and sliders and either a Double DIN sized hole in the dash or a fully integrated touchscreen.

So a 10 yo used Civic.

Younork
Younork
30 days ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

I bet a 2025 Honda Civic Hybrid is cheaper in the long run than a 10 yo Civic. It also sounds like it ticks all of your boxes.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
30 days ago
Reply to  Younork

It would have to be a very, very long run. I can get a used Civic hybrid for between $9-$11k vs the $24k for a new hybrid Civic. The former is rated at 50 City/47 Highway vs the older hybrid at 43/45 for the same. Even putting 15k on the cars I’d only save maybe $1k every 5 years so it would already take longer than my expected lifetime to make up the difference and longer since I drive nowhere near 15k/year.

Sure there are other reasons to buy the newer car but saving big money at the pump isn’t going to be one of them.

Younork
Younork
30 days ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

When I did the math a couple months ago, based solely on purchase price and fuel cost, ignoring maintenance, the Civic Hybrid was cheaper by a couple pennies per mile to an expected end of life of 200,000 miles. Then when you factor in maintenance, the Hybrid gets even cheaper because, in all likelihood, you won’t have anything besides oil changes for the first 5 years, whereas the used one needs breaks and whatnot because it is used. I am also rather partial to 200hp and apple carplay.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
30 days ago
Reply to  Younork

I DIY so that math usually works out differently than someone who goes to the dealership.

Even with the potentially higher maintainence of an older car I don’t see the math changing much. A set of brakes, new rubber and one cheap fluid flush pretty much resets the clock at least in my mild, no salt climate. Given a newer car will also have much higher insurance and annual registration fees I think the added maintainence costs of the older car maybe even the added fuel costs will be much smaller on comparison.

Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar
1 month ago

As I continue to struggle with options for a large SUV outside of the Grand Highlander, I’ve considered the Ford Explorer and the Lincoln Aviator. They are a good size, they seem nice enough. The 400 hp motor won’t win fuel economy awards, but at least you get some power for it.

But Ford’s reputation for “quality” really makes me pause. It is hard to put your money on the table when you don’t have a lot confidence in how well it is made. I’m not buying a sports car here where I’d forgive some fragility for performance. I’m buying a road trip car. I want it to start every day, make its trips with zero drama, and rarely need service outside of maintenance visits.

Being under warranty doesn’t excuse problems, because so many dealers are shitty stewards of warranty work. Probably at least in part because the OEMs don’t offer enough incentive to take care of customers. Too many stories of people losing their car for a month and not even being offered a loaner.

Harvey Park Bench
Harvey Park Bench
27 days ago
Reply to  Vic Vinegar

Avoid the Explorer. It’s terrible and buggier than a super 8 outside of Needles.

Manwich Sandwich
Manwich Sandwich
1 month ago

What car are you most looking forward to in 2025?”

I’m not looking forward to any specific vehicle. I am looking forward to the greater proliferation of BEVs… particularly when it comes to BEVs replacing diesel-powered trucks because I like clean air.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
1 month ago

I like clean air too but I think hybrid trucks of the REX variety with as small and as efficient an ICE as possible are the best path forward there. A clean, highly efficient on board emergency generator capable of providing heat and power to an entire block party should be a huge selling point to the truck crowd, even to coal rollers as no coal roller want to stink up (insert preferred personal pronoun here) own house/campsite/tailgate party.

Manwich Sandwich
Manwich Sandwich
1 month ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

 hybrid trucks of the REX variety”

I see both being useful. The fact is that the Rivian vans built for Amazon and the Brightdrop vans made by GM are great for local deliveries.

And Tesla has shown that BEVs can work for a lot of longer haul trucking as well.

As the cost continues to come down, I also predict that having solar with a battery pack as a buffer will become a common thing for both houses and RVs.

And I REALLY look forward to ICE generators being less popular. I camped in a park where some people in a motorhome or large RV insisted on running their generator all day. The beauty of solar with a battery is the lack of noise.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
1 month ago

I see both being useful. The fact is that the Rivian vans built for Amazon and the Brightdrop vans made by GM are great for local deliveries.

They certainly are in warm climates. Not sure how well they do in very cold weather though. That’s the nice thing about ICE, they can provide plenty of heat to keep the batteries and cabin warm even with the door opening a lot.

And Tesla has shown that BEVs can work for a lot of longer haul trucking as well.

I’m not so sure. Those batteries are pretty damn heavy, bulky and expensive. And they take a LOT of power to charge so simultaneously quick charging multiple big rigs in a reasonable time frame may be problematic.

I think CNG powered HEVs with lightweight, hyper efficient, fixed speed operation ICE would be better for highway use than either batteries or hydrogen (the other oft proposed solution for long distance trucking). Again plenty of waste heat for cold climates, super cheap, widely available fuel and much, much cleaner than straight diesel. And existing diesel engines can run on it.

And I REALLY look forward to ICE generators being less popular. I camped in a park where some people in a motorhome or large RV insisted on running their generator all day. The beauty of solar with a battery is the lack of noise.

I think solar is a lot less useful than you think. I’ve been camping a few times with solar for tablets and phones. The ever present shade from trees was a big problem. I was able to easily move and angle my panels to maximize power but it was a PITA. I think that would be a LOT harder with an RV. I think anyone camping in a shady campground – like almost all the ones I’ve ever been in – would just fire up the Jenny.

OTOH the ICE of a REXEV needs to meet modern vehicular noise and emission standards AND is much more powerful than any generator. Even if it were to be run on a single cylinder it could provide more heat and power than an RV needs. Hit and miss operation could be used to further reduce emissions and maximize fuel efficiency. That would make the already quiet ICE even quieter.

Steve's House of Cars
Steve's House of Cars
1 month ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

I haven’t actually talked to anyone with Rivian or Amazon, but I can confirm the Rivian vans are prolific here in Chicagoland and have been from early on, at least a couple of years now. It’s a very cold climate during the winter but they run year round. I don’t think they are just a warm climate vehicle or Amazon would have stopped purchasing them.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
1 month ago

Those may have routes << than their winter range. It might be a different story for rural delivery trucks.

Steve's House of Cars
Steve's House of Cars
1 month ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

That would track, similar to the adoption of electric cars in general. There are a lot of use cases where they make sense, if you don’t try to over-extend them past their limits they work quite well.

I’m not right next to a warehouse here, and they use the Rivian vans year round (one literally just drove by my home office window), so I suspect the loss of performance in the winter is low enough to not be causing issues on the normal routes.

Manwich Sandwich
Manwich Sandwich
1 month ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

They certainly are in warm climates. Not sure how well they do in very cold weather though”

Well I’m seeing them used in the Toronto area… so… well enough?

“I’m not so sure. Those batteries are pretty damn heavy, bulky and expensive.”

You know what else is damn heavy, bulky and expensive? The heavy duty diesel engines, transmissions and drive shafts that conventional commercial trucks use. So on a net basis, the weight difference is around 10% more at the moment. And that difference is set to shrink as the tech gets better.

“I think CNG powered HEVs with lightweight, hyper efficient, fixed speed operation ICE would be better for highway use than either batteries or hydrogen (the other oft proposed solution for long distance trucking). “

A serious effort with using CNG was done starting in the 1980s until the 2000s… when the price of CNG spiked. The CNG transit buses and other vehicles were less reliable, had greatly inferior range (think comparable to current electric buses or less) and had issues with not being able to go into underground stations for safety reasons… and sometimes vehicle height reasons (as these buses were taller because the tanks were on the roof).

I was pretty optimistic about CNG and even was considering getting a CNG vehicle myself (I was eyeing a Civic GX). I nixed the idea when I discovered the cost of getting a home fuelling system (which would have been the cheapest way to refuel by far) and the lack of fuelling infrastructure not too far outside of the city.

People complain about EV charging infastructure, but CNG fuelling infrastructure is much worse overall. Sure, a lot of homes have NG… but it’s all low pressure. You need around CAD$7000 of equipment to turn home NG to CNG. Oh and then there is a mandaory annual safety inspection which was around CAD$800 annually. And these are prices from the early to mid 2000s.

And then even after you have the equipment, it takes around 8 hours to refuel a CNG vehicle using a low pressure NG supply.

All the downsides of BEVs, with less safety, higher costs and worse infrastructure.

“OTOH the ICE of a REXEV needs to meet modern vehicular noise and emission standards AND is much more powerful than any generator. “

Even the bit of noise they make can be annoying. You can still hear it from a few sites away. Experienced this with camping neighbours who were using a “quiet” Honda generator.

I think anyone camping in a shady campground”

Well either pick a spot that isn’t shady or take the RV to a charger and recharge it every so often.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
30 days ago

Well I’m seeing them used in the Toronto area… so… well enough?

Depends. Are you seeing them now?

So on a net basis, the weight difference is around 10% more at the moment.

“There is currently an 8,000 lbs weight disadvantage for the 500 mile Tesla Semi compared to a typical diesel.”

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/09/comparing-tesla-semi-versus-diesel-semis-with-real-world-data.html

That’s a fair amount of weight. Granted some of that will narrow thanks to the heavier tanks of NG but not as much as would be lost to batteries. Time will tell if better batteries narrow that range further.

That however does not help the challenge of charging multiple big rigs in areas with limited electric capacity. Those places would be forced to use local FF burning generators which I expect to be less efficient than burning those FFs in the trucks directly.

A serious effort with using CNG was done starting in the 1980s until the 2000s… when the price of CNG spiked. The CNG transit buses and other vehicles were less reliable, had greatly inferior range (think comparable to current electric buses or less) and had issues with not being able to go into underground stations for safety reasons… and sometimes vehicle height reasons (as these buses were taller because the tanks were on the roof).

Since then a few things have changed:

1) Fracking and other unconventional drilling have become a thing and huge reserves of natural gas are now available. There’s so much gas the price even dips into the negative. That’s right, producers have to pay someone to take it off their hands.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/08/business/energy-environment/natural-gas-negative-prices-texas.html

IMO better this gas get burned in a truck than flared into the atmosphere.

There is also more interest in renewable natural gas from landfills, animal waste, etc.

2) Other advances have come in better high pressure tanks. Back in 2000 3.6k PSI was about the max. Now 10k PSI tanks and compressors are available thanks to hydrogen. That alone should increase the range by a factor of three or the tank volume reduced to 1/3 internal volume for the same range.

3) Further development in pilot ignition diesel engines. This is a standard diesel engine that runs on a combination of natural gas and diesel They are much cleaner particulate wise than a standard diesel. As I understand the tech an existing diesel engine can be modified relatively simply to run on an energy mix up to 80% NG.Above that greater modifications are needed up to 95% NG but either way the engine offers the same power and torque as 100% diesel.

4) Bloom Energy also makes NG fuel cells. These are made for stationary applications like buildings but I an unaware of any technical reason disallowing their use in mobile applications. Their stationary FC offer a peak TE comparable to HFCs at 63%, which is much better than any ICE.

I nixed the idea when I discovered the cost of getting a home fuelling system (which would have been the cheapest way to refuel by far) and the lack of fuelling infrastructure not too far outside of the city.

Agreed that will be a problem for home fueling. IIRC there were a few companies back then that claimed to be working on a $500 3.6k compressor but the CNGV market collapsed before anything came of it. I doubt 10k compressors would ever be practical for home use but some home fueling is better than none.

Even the bit of noise they make can be annoying. You can still hear it from a few sites away. Experienced this with camping neighbours who were using a “quiet” Honda generator.

Its still a generator, not a vehicle. Vehicles can be completely silent if designed to be.

Well either pick a spot that isn’t shady or take the RV to a charger and recharge it every so often.

If you’re in a place like Yosemite or Sequoia a campground that’s sunny all day isn’t possible. Even more so for spring and autumn camping. There will also be the issue of power – where do you think that campground power comes from? Perhaps a gas or diesel generator that’s even less efficient than an Atkinson RV engine.

Manwich Sandwich
Manwich Sandwich
30 days ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

Depends. Are you seeing them now?”

Well if I saw one now, it would either be in my bedroom or in a schoolyard next to my house.

LOL



Dan Bee
Dan Bee
30 days ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

Drove through the sixth district of Chicago on surface streets last February for work. Saw many a Rivian Amazon van doing just fine.

Last edited 30 days ago by Dan Bee
Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
30 days ago
Reply to  Dan Bee

How about way out in the cold, dark boonies?

John in Ohio
John in Ohio
1 month ago

I’m mostly interested to see if Ram screws up the Ramcharger truck. I’d like that to be a quality offering but I’m not sure the quality will be there. I know how we got here but it’s still enraging to see a person like Elon out and proud about how much he’s corrupting all aspects of federal government. Aided and abetted by the very people who scream and yell about crony capitalism and all that crap.

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
1 month ago
Reply to  John in Ohio

Pretty sure he is trying to do things to correct it, not corrupt it. That’s not really possible.

John in Ohio
John in Ohio
1 month ago
Reply to  Get Stoney

What an absolutely weird thing to say given all the reporting out there.

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
1 month ago
Reply to  John in Ohio

In what way? And who is reporting it?

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
1 month ago

I’ll continue, in 2025, to clutch my car for another year waiting for Subaru to bring the WRX hatch back.

Taargus Taargus
Taargus Taargus
1 month ago

Does the new Prelude come out next year? That’s at least somewhat interesting. Otherwise I’m excited to drive my Chrysler van for another year.

Fasterlivingmagazine
Fasterlivingmagazine
1 month ago

Im looking forward (and praying) that the 2025 Tundra will have an engine that will make it past its 1st or 2nd oil change. Also is there any way to reign Musk in? I was hoping the whole dystopian future thing was going to be a little farther in the future. I would really prefer if my children will never need to learn who he is.

Urban Runabout
Urban Runabout
1 month ago

Re: Musk
Well, we could start making him un-rich by dumping Tesla stock – because not buying Teslas seems to be having little effect on the stock price.

Rob Schneider
Rob Schneider
1 month ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

Tesla stock doesn’t trade on fundamentals. It’s basically a meme stock.

Horizontally Opposed
Horizontally Opposed
30 days ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

Nah. He’s beyond tesla I think. Starlink and SpaceX are the real stuff.

Mechjaz
Mechjaz
1 month ago

He’s reigning in already, that’s the problem. I’d also suggest reining him in, but it’s not exactly raining adults, you know?

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
1 month ago

On the flip side, should we have never learned about Genghis Khan?

Pretty silly to shield your kids from change…but, you do you. 🙂

Fasterlivingmagazine
Fasterlivingmagazine
1 month ago
Reply to  Get Stoney

I don’t want to shield them from anything, my hope is that elon musk won’t be historically important enough for them to learn about him.

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
1 month ago

Umm…it’s a tad late for that, lol. I don’t work for him or anything, but reality says:

-Built the first/most successful EV company.
-Took over the entire globe’s space efforts.
-The richest man in history.

There are 800 other things, good and bad, that he will be known for, for all of modern history. Ain’t no shielding from him.

Nsane In The MembraNe
Nsane In The MembraNe
1 month ago

There’s not a whole let to get excited about next year. I guess I’ll just cross my fingers that an Integra hybrid happens…and I guess I’m interested to see how the straight 6 Charger is and whether or not Ford is actually building a Mustang sedan or if it’s just vaporware.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
1 month ago

I’m worried the Integra Hybrid is just going to be the Prelude, which isn’t the same thing.

Nsane In The MembraNe
Nsane In The MembraNe
1 month ago

I was going to say I don’t know why luxury manufacturers have so few hybrids, but I do. Wealthier customers are more open to EVs and they need to establish their EV brand and yadda yadda yadda…but for someone like me? A mid 30s professional whose next purchase will probably have a Lexus or Acura badge?

An entry to mid level hybrid luxury sedan or liftback would be the bee’s knees. It would save me money and make me feel a little less guilty about my carbon footprint…and the weirdest part is I’m not the only one. I work in healthcare in DC and I’m pretty sure every one of my coworkers would be too…and outside of a small handful of Tesla stans/EV truthers and the Subaru crowd that doesn’t believe in buying anything but Subarus pretty much all of my friends would be too.

It just seems like such an underserved niche to me. Like give me a stylish luxury hybrid that I can get for 50k or less that isn’t a total snooze dynamically and I’ll write a check tomorrow. I get that the psychotic bean counters probably say SEMI AFFORDABLE HYBRID BAD UPSELL TO THE BIGGEST SUV WE HAVE but I feel like volume would make up for the lower margins at a certain point.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
1 month ago

100%, I’m in the same boat. My big elephant in the room though is the lack of Lexus IS hybrid. An IS350h would be awesome, some variant of the 2.0T with hybrid power.

EDIT: They make an IS300h just not for the US

Last edited 1 month ago by Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar
30 days ago

I’d also be interested in a IS hybrid. I almost am interested in the ES just because I can get the hybrid and I think it is better looking than the NX.

Rob Schneider
Rob Schneider
1 month ago

Interesting Prologue you’ve written there.

Perhaps I’m taking this thread too literally.

GreatFallsGreen
GreatFallsGreen
1 month ago

I can’t help but think the idea for the Prelude started as a new Integra. The new Prelude is a liftback, but Preludes had trunks and 2-door Integras were liftbacks. I’m not anti-current-Integra and don’t want that discourse to start up but it’s not wrong to say that the 2-doors are remembered most. But then they realized Acura would be left with a big hole in the lineup for a 4-door vehicle below the TLX in price and size, but giving them two smaller models when Honda lost both the Civic and Accord coupes didn’t make sense either.

I’m hopeful that the arrival of the ADX makes a hybrid Integra more likely. ADX will no doubt be priced just over the Integra, and when you’re at $40k for the same 1.5T/CVT combo, which one is the average buyer more likely to go for? But a hybrid Integra would be a different value proposition. OTOH – that is right up against the Accord hybrid pricing, and with Toyota going all-hybrid on models like the Camry they may just be focusing on producing as many hybrids of the Accord/CR-V/Civic, which I can’t fault them for either.

Nsane In The MembraNe
Nsane In The MembraNe
30 days ago

I know it’s absolutely not an enthusiast vehicle but I actually find the ADX appealing. It’s a good looking car with good bones in a useful body. Most consumers will indeed choose it over an Integra, but for all the moaning and gnashing of teeth over the Integra amongst enthusiasts it’s actually proven to be a success sales-wise.

I actually agree that the hybrid would be a good differentiator for it, especially considering the ADX is going to offer all wheel drive which is something every normie is convinced they can’t live without. It’s going to take a lot of Integra sales once it’s here…so how are they going to keep the Integra relevant?

The Type S is cool as fuck and well reviewed but it’s a niche product that’s gate kept by a very high base price and mandatory manual. There are currently 521 listed nationally on cars dot com so it’s not like they’re hard to find if you really want one…but the average luxury car buyer with $55,000 burning a hole in their pocket doesn’t want a manual, front wheel drive only liftback. Im not saying it’s a good thing, but that’s just the way it is.

The Civic Hybrid’s powertrain is neat because it’s an upgrade over the incredibly pedestrian 1.5 liter turbo in every way. It’s faster and offers exponentially better fuel economy…hell there are journalists out there who’ve said they’d rather have it over an SI which is saying something.

So you could play up the hybrid angle, the sportier angle, or both. It seems like a win win to me but I think you may be right that they’re saving all the hybrid engines for commodity vehicles because of volume, which isn’t uncommon…apparently that’s why the Hyundai Santa Cruz never got a hybrid option despite the hybrid Maverick making it DOA.

But then again since it’s a lower volume car would it really hurt their ability to sell Honda hybrids? I’m sure the bean counting ghouls probably think so but on paper it’s easily doable and I hope we get it because like I said, I’d show up at an Acura dealership with a check tomorrow if it was an option. A quick, hyper efficient liftback sedan with a luxury badge and appointments would be pretty perfect for my needs.

GreatFallsGreen
GreatFallsGreen
30 days ago

I think the ADX is definitely right product/right time. I worry that it makes the current Integra out to be a stopgap in the end, but I hope some of the ADX’s differentiating features will trickle down to a facelift on the Integra.

And thinking about overlap I’m remembering ADX pricing is going to be right on top of the CR-V with the same 1.5T but it’s separate enough in features that it’s more a choice in features vs. size. So I think a hybrid Integra vs. Accord a the same price would have a place, I know I’d go for the Integra for the same price. Part of that is Honda seems not all that committed to the Accord, with how good they made the Civic, whereas there’s a clear difference between Corolla/Camry. CR-V and Civic are bigger sellers than Accord, so if they spite volume on any model it’s going to be that one. Profit wise, they all share so much I can’t imagine an Accord and Integra are that different to the bean counters as you say.

Then WRT the powertrain capacity, there’s the possibility of a HR-V hybrid which exists globally and makes the most sense marketwise. Maybe that comes at the facelift like the North American Civic hybrid did, but I’m not sure they’re producing hybrids at the plant that makes our HR-V and ADX whereas the Integra is at the same plant as hybrid Hondas, so it should be an easier go. And again with overlap, for the HR-V hybrid…for that money get a CR-V, whereas Honda seems less bothered by a Civic overlapping the Accord.

Fuzzyweis
Fuzzyweis
1 month ago

Well not 2025 but I’m curious what will come of Ford’s small cheap EV, I think they said 2026. Not sure I’ve seen much hoopla for 2025, except maybe the car makes will start putting NACS ports in their EVs instead of having to provide adapters.

Eggsalad
Eggsalad
1 month ago

I think it was in the 1980s when Ford made a slogan of “Quality is Job 1”. I guess we’re still waiting, 4o years later.

Citrus
Citrus
1 month ago
Reply to  Eggsalad

Quality is Job 10

Urban Runabout
Urban Runabout
1 month ago
Reply to  Citrus

Shareholder returns are Job 1

Nsane In The MembraNe
Nsane In The MembraNe
1 month ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

C Suite bonuses are job 1.5

Dan Bee
Dan Bee
30 days ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

And short-term care ones at that. See Stellantis 2023 versus 2024. Talk about juicing the stock price.

Space
Space
28 days ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

Well they are doing a piss poor job on that, my Ford shares are some of the worst stock investments I’ve ever had.

Manwich Sandwich
Manwich Sandwich
1 month ago
Reply to  Eggsalad

For a while, Ford had the best quality among the North American automakers.

“Quality is Job 1” was brought in by Philip Caldwell… the guy who replaced Hank the Deuce.

And that quality focus continued through the 1990s.

Problem is, after years of having better quality, some dipshits in management decided to sacrifice quality so they can save some nickels and dimes.

And as far as I can tell, quality started to slide after Jac “The Knife” Nasser became CEO in 1999

And subsequent CEOs like William Clay Ford Jr, Alan Mulally and Mark Fields also didn’t have a quality focus. If they did, then the Ford PowerShift transmission disaster (development started in the mid-2000s and it went on sale in 2008) wouldn’t have gone on for as long as it did.

Now they’re at the point the company was after Hank The Deuce retired. They must be getting clear messages that their crappy quality is costing them in terms of sales and warranty costs.

So now quality is suddenly a top priority again… for now.

Chris with bad opinions
Chris with bad opinions
1 month ago

It’s almost like Leon and the orange asshole are corrupt asholes that only care for themselves. But we all know they really care about the country and all us peasants. I’m excited for $0.43 cent eggs, $10,000 new cars and no taxes at all. What can possibly go wrong?

Freelivin2713
Freelivin2713
26 days ago

Yeah, I’ll never understand how people are so blind to the fact that those pair of dipshits are such terrible people and belong in prison

Chris with bad opinions
Chris with bad opinions
25 days ago
Reply to  Freelivin2713

Agreed, but as you’ve seen there are people here who worship them. Some people are just beyond stupid.

MrLM002
MrLM002
1 month ago

What car are you most looking forward to in 2025?

I hope the F-150 Lightning will finally get NACS in 2025. I would really prefer one with a front bench seat and at least a 6ft bed but beggars can’t be choosers in this dumb modern Truck market.

JP15
JP15
1 month ago
Reply to  MrLM002

The Lightning has NACS support today with the free adaptors Ford shipped everyone. Plus you get integrated Tesla Supercharger access through the Ford app (no need to set up a Tesla account and have yet another app).

I’m still waiting for my free adaptor for my Mach-E, but the car software is fully updated to support NACS, and my friend with a Lightning did get his free adaptor and said Supercharging works great.

MrLM002
MrLM002
30 days ago
Reply to  JP15

Not an NACS port, an adapter. The cars with adapters will be the first to lose software support out of the bunch (if you didn’t know modern BEVs are reliant on a software handshake between the car and the charger order to charger.

Personally I’d rather wait.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
1 month ago

VW worker guy is back! I hope he’s having a good holiday!

Taargus Taargus
Taargus Taargus
1 month ago

Ha, VW worker guy has certainly gotten a lot of use around here.

And it does make me wonder if there’s an image of me being used as meme somewhere like, I don’t know, Bulgaria or something. I doubt VW worker guy knows that we’re happy to see him again.

PresterJohn
PresterJohn
1 month ago

On Germany, yes, Europe is entering a phase where some very hard corrections will need to be made. It will not be pleasant. The regulatory scheme of most western European countries needs to be radically reformed if they want to compete. It’s a very hard thing because the vast majority of these regulations probably make sense in isolation. Unfortunately decades of adding to the pile means you step back and it’s nearly impossible to start a tech company and make any real money. So what do you do as a European entrepreneur? Come to the ole US of A of course!

I think Musk knows China is going to cut him out of their domestic market like they did to everyone else. Whether he made this move for some short sighted gain I don’t know, but he has demonstrated some business acumen in the past and I have to imagine he sees this. The competitiveness of his products doesn’t matter when your business can be removed from the country with the stroke of a pen.

As for 2025, I’m looking forward to some range extended EVs being on sale and will likely lease one if, say, Genesis comes out with something nice.

PlugInPA
PlugInPA
1 month ago

Looking forward to in 2025? Well, my kids are healthy, so that’s the most important thing.

But the President-elect has promised economic pain, so we’re not spending any fun money at the moment to make sure we can handle a job disruption without selling investments. We live in a good spot for state parks and other free recreation, which is nice. But at the moment I don’t have any plans I’m excited about.

William Domer
William Domer
1 month ago
Reply to  PlugInPA

My sense is to treat the next couple of years as if Covid never went away. I have a hot tip for you campers: County Parks. In WI we found one near Viroqua called Esofia (sp). Nice clean lovely out of the way space, fishing creek, clean new bathrooms/showers and a 9 mile bike ride into Viroqua for breakfast. Oh, $10/ Night

PlugInPA
PlugInPA
1 month ago
Reply to  William Domer

Well, we’re not campers, but we have so many good spots within a two-hour drive of where we live that there’s really no need to be.

AssMatt
AssMatt
1 month ago

It’s not onbious to me, either.

Jdoubledub
Jdoubledub
1 month ago

Didn’t expect to have an existential crisis reading The Autopian. I have a cross-country ski trip early next year. Beyond that, I apparently have nothing to look forward to. I should work on that.

David Smith
David Smith
1 month ago
Reply to  Jdoubledub

Skiing across the country sounds like a hell of a challenge.

Urban Runabout
Urban Runabout
1 month ago
Reply to  David Smith

Getting thru the Penn Turnpike toll plazas on skis is not for the fainthearted.

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