From advancements in suspension technologies to the horsepower wars, it’s no secret that we’re living in a golden age of outright speed. However, just as cars have come a long way over the past few decades, so have tires, which has begged a persistent question: If you put new tires on an older car, how much quicker does it go around a track? Well, thanks to Porsche and Michelin developing a new tire for the Carrera GT, we have a little more evidence to suggest that the hero cars of our youth are even more heroic on modern rubber.
Just in case this story slipped past you, more than a year ago, Porsche placed a stop-drive recall on 489 Carrera GTs because their control arms could fracture due to salt exposure, wear from driving, and the ravages of time. However, just a few months ago, the marque announced it had a fix, and it was throwing in a pretty big perk for owners — a brand new set of newly-developed tires.
Like many automakers, Porsche works with tire companies to engineer model-specific tires to meet certain internal targets. Don’t worry, they still come in normal sizes, but Porsche’s special tires all have the letter “N” followed by a number stamped into the sidewall. The “N” certifies the tires as Porsche-approved models, while the number notes revisions. For the Carrera GT, Porsche worked with Michelin to create a set of ultra-sticky Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires specifically for the Carrera GT, and they were provided to affected owners free of charge.
Now, although the Cup 2 isn’t the latest semi-slick tire on the market, this particular composition is roughly 20 years newer than the Pirelli P Zero tires that came on the Carrera GT, and that’s a lot of time in the tire industry. It really makes you wonder what effect the new rubber would have on lap times, and German publication Sport Auto decided to find out on the car world’s open proving grounds, the Nürburgring Nordschleife.
With support from Manthey Racing, Sport Auto loaded Porsche factory hotshoe Jörg Bergmeister into a Carrera GT and waited for a lap time. It didn’t take very long. It turns out that with twenty years in tire technology advancements, the Porsche Carrera GT is able to lap the Nordschleife in 7:12.69. That’s quicker than a 991.2 Porsche 911 GT3, quicker than a BMW M4 CSL, and much quicker than the 7:28 time laid down by rally legend Walter Röhrl back in 2004.
Sure, conditions won’t have been identical between the two dates and the track has certainly seen some repaving since 2004, but that alone doesn’t explain a nearly 16-second delta. That’s a serious improvement in time that largely comes down to the added grip and predictability of modern tires, and it’s especially impressive when you consider how much body movement is happening here.
It all goes to show the importance of tires. They’re the only things that directly connect your car to the ground, and even if your 20-year-old car isn’t a Carrera GT, a good set of new tires can seriously upgrade your handling, braking, and potentially even acceleration if traction off the line is an issue.
(Photo credits: YouTube/Sport Auto, Porsche)
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I see a lot of comments saying maybe other factors helped the time in addition to the tires, but there’s factors the other way around as well: Several parts of that track look pretty damp, and the original laptime was set by Walter Röhrl. While it’s possible it’s a couple seconds faster because of factors other than the tires, it could also have been a couple seconds slower from other factors.
Tires are absolutely the best thing you can do to improve handling. Losing weight and suspension geometry fall after that. I’d really love to see how many more of these classic sports/super cars fare on modern rubber.
Sidenote: I read an article recently w/ a tire engineer that said modern high-performance AS tires are about as grippy as proper summer tires from 10 years ago. It’s pretty insane the progress.
16 seconds sounds impressive, but that’s something like a 4% improvement. A good portion of that could be attributed to better asphalt and weather.
Were they filled with winter air, or summer air? If they were running winter air in them, you could probably knock another 5 seconds off that lap time with summer air in them.
That would be true if air didn’t degrade like gasoline. After a few months, summer air starts to separate into spring and autumn air, which throws tyre balance completely out of whack.
I’d be curious to see the results taken one step further with a suspension upgrade. Apparently the current V5 of the KW kit is absolutely top notch and does nothing to hinder, but only improve the driving experience. Being 20+ year newer suspension technology goes a long way, even at stock ride height with similar ride quality. While I imagine tires will be the biggest improvement, I’d wager there’s at least another 5 seconds to shave off with the KWs, getting some of that body motion under control will do wonders for maintaining the tires contact patch at speed.
And one last thing… It’s amazing how close to each other the yellows of the Chevy Colorado in the article below this one, and the Carrera are.
I suspect their lap times would not be as close.
I also read those 2 articles back to back and noticed the same colour! I wonder if me (whose racing career is 4 dnf’s in 4 races) in the Porsche could beat the pro driver in the Colorado extreme. I actually kind of doubt that I could. Maybe I could eke out a win in the Porsche against a pro driver in a 4 banger Colorado.
Meanwhile, I loved the look of these antiques:
Michelin X | Tire Rack
And from Italy:
155R13 PIRELLI CINTURATO CA67 – Lucas Classic Tires
I’m sure they would not hold their own against today’s tires, but they were so much better than the bias-ply tires that were dominant in that era.
And the tread pattern looked so exotic compared to the tires on my parents’ car back then.
My first car was a very used ’68 Datsun 510 station wagon, and it understeered so badly with the bias-ply tires it was wearing then. I scrubbed the corners off of them hooning it around as best I could with its 96 hp engine of that era.
My parents were not dumb and saw what had happened and made me buy the replacement set of tires. I went with a set of Michelin X tires and stopped driving that way (for the most part) going off to college. A couple of years later, it was getting a bit understeery, what do they call that in NASCAR… oh yeah tight.
And then I swapped the fronts to the rear and vice versa and then it was pleasantly loose.
And then I moved back to a place with no elevation changes and a grid of county roads, bought a different car (my goofy, elegant, competent, and so durable Peugeot 504) and gave the Datsun to my brother. Who promptly wadded it up, like he had several times before, to big, beefy, Oldsmobiles. That had been handed down from our parents and my grandfather, who had bequeathed his Toronado to me, when he passed.
(And Autopian spelling checker, which doesn’t even recognize your own site name, don’t try to spelling check me into making the Olds a Tornado. They didn’t and you shouldn’t either. @Matt_Hardigree you or your web people should figure that out.)
PS… I’m a retired newspaper reporter, photographer and Emmy Award winning TV news photographer and happy to help in any way I can. (I do observe a lot of typos that pass through whatever editorial process[es] you have in place. And I would be happy to merely hang out to make this site even better. As in, I could be a proofreader before you post,)
I love this site, all your writers and the width and depth of the content that gets posted here. And, and this is huge, the quality and intellect of the commentary provided by the participants. I hope most of them are supporters as I am.
And I get so much entertainment from reading this site at least once a day, that I am going to step up to a higher level of financial support.
It’s 0137 here. That process will probably have to wait until later today. It’s beddy-bye time.
I’ve never tried the Michelin X but I have the CA67 on four of my cars and I’m pretty happy with it. It seems to work well with suspensions from its era.
Wow… four cars of that era? Cool!
The Michelins I put on the Datsun were a much newer version.
Well, I admit I’m pushing the upper limits of “that era” a bit. The cars are a ’67 SAAB 96, a ’76 Volvo 66 GL, an ’82 Austin Allegro, and an ’82 Triumph Acclaim. For the Volvo/DAF and the Allegro, however, their suspension designs had remained pretty much unchanged since long before 1976 and 1982, respectively, so the CA67 still seems like a good choice. Besides, it’s not like there are a lot of other tire options in those sizes these days that are even close to having the right construction.
I was going to ask what your four horses of the Apocalypse were… Judging by the collection, you must be across the pond from here. The only one of those we saw in the States was the Saab. The Acclaim looks like a rebadged Honda Civic and indeed, Wikipedia is telling me it was the lovechild of Honda and BL. Along with the Rover 200.
Now I’m curious about the rest of your automotive menagerie. You sound like a good candidate for the Autopian series where they profile a member and all their various vehicles.
I’m in Seattle. I have no excuse for my automotive choices.
Wow. I was not expecting that location. I’m just down the sound in Tacoma.
My dad had a 1981 4 speed manual mercury lynx wagon with silver paint and Bordeaux red vinyl inside. I was young dude then but I remember he came home one day with some Michelin XZX tires on that Lynx one day and even then I felt the difference… Largely because he drove that 70hp wagon like it was stolen from then on. ????
So “Good tires, but certainly not great tires” in reverse?
On older sports cars, I’d prefer tires that had a progressive feel at the limit than super grip and suddenly loosing it. Too much grip makes driving at reasonable speed boring.
Not to complain about this achievement, but sometimes you just want to have fun.
If you like that feeling you would enjoy the way an Evo handles. I used to enjoy how drivable that car was even during mild sliding. Rainy onramp days were fun even at slow speeds you could get it to swing out a bit then “drive it”.
But wow I kinda felt this was a bit harsh considering tires on a Carrera GT is what killed mr Walker…. Poor taste to not mention him.
My experience with motorcycles tires is the opposite. I much prefer that tire that holds steady to a predictable level than one that provides progressive “feedback” as they feel far too squirrelly and unsettled for me.
Over time and many sets late: I was able to easily know where that grip point was on a set of tires and could put a lot of trust in them. So I knew, in the back of my head, what I could get away with – or safely ride away from in a potentially dangerous situation (like a car cutting me off).
I’m currently going through this in my new 13 Si, it’s got some tires I’ve never used (blanking on what they are) and the grip just feels off. I’m used to Falken and Toyo tires, which do do a good job communicating to my brain; these seem to just hit a grip wall and then let go… I haven’t spun it or anything, just tossing it around through roundabouts in an obnoxious way; very much looking forward to the spring where I can hopefully get it on a track and really figure it out.
Oh! Here’s a thought, it could be the LSD, which I’ve never had in a FWD car before. That might explain it…. Anyways thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
Sorry, but what is a 13 Si?
Civic
Yeah sorry, 2013 Honda Civic Si Sedan………
Yep, tires make a difference. A good set can make a land yacht corner better. A bad set can be ditch magnets.
That is quite an improvement, but I think the long lap and subsequent difference does make it seem more impressive than it might be. Like if this had been a 2 minute lap, the same percent change would have given it something like a 1:56 second lap with the new tires. Yes still very impressive, but like mentioned there are a lot of variables like track surface, ambient conditions etc.
3.6 percent improvement for free is HUGE. it brought the lap time FASTER than a porsche flagship 10 years newer the 918 spider. (which cloud admittedly also get a faster lap time if it had more modern tires. )
No doubt tires make a giant difference, I am just saying that there are a lot of variables here too that could be an influence. I believe not only was there a track resurface that could account for major improvements, but also I saw after 2005 there some alterations to the track, shortening it’s effective length by a bit (but maybe that was just for the configuration including the GP circuit). Anyways, even things like weather and such could play a measurable difference here, not to mention that the original Michelins back then may not have even been the pinnacle of what a performance tire was. I remember a few track day tires from back then which could throw down better laps than either those or the top Pirellis.
But on that note too there are considerations like how many laps Walter Rohrl got versus this new driver Jorg. I suspect Porsche back then had A LOT more opportunity to put together a clean lap, whereas Jorg may have only had a couple good laps to really push it. So hats of to him if so, and may indicate that the time could be even lower with another few days to keep chipping away at things.
i’m sure there is some run to run variance but probably not close to 3.6 percent. They also post the FASTEST times not the average so the run to run variance is not as relevant to the conversation. The track resurface is an interesting data point, however the 7:28 lap time was done 20 years ago so the track surface was also fairly fresh back then.
I’ll never forget when I inherited my late uncle’s DeVille and it had these awful Vogue whitewalls on it. When I threw on a set of Radial T/As it was like a completely different car.
Any relation to Jack Klompus?
Nope.
“You think I’ve never ridden in a Cadillac? I’ve ridden in a Cadillac hundreds of times, THOUSANDS!”
Appreciate the laugh.
Also, the difference between current and past motorcycle tires is perhaps even more pronounced than in car tires. The tread compounds used these days in moto tires make street tires stick better than Goodyear slicks did back in the 1970s. And the improvement in traction on wet surfaces is staggering, in part because silica is used in the compound.
You’re absolutely correct about m/c tires… On wet pavement, the level of grip available now is kinda mind boggling. Until you hit leaves, or a steel manhole cover and there’s a moment (milliseconds, really) of puckering while you wait to see if the tires find grip again. And they usually do.
Wet and/or cold improvement is so improved from years past. And they last way longer too! It’s crazy.
I just got some new Dunlop Mutants, and they feel amazing. I realize a huge part of the improvement is that I’m replacing worn out tires, so it exaggerates it a bit, but I’m still damn impressed.
The Mutants are a very good tire ! I’ve used up three sets of them on my Husky 701 supermoto. They’re decent tires in the dry, very good in the wet, and they make riding over tar snakes on a hot day ( when the tar is liquified ) less terrifying than it would be with other tires.
This effect is even greater for ordinary cars. My Fiat Spider, for instance, came with Pirelli P6 tires new in 1981. Just about any ‘minivan tire’ (e.g. General Altimax, to take an example I can think of) will be as good as or better in objective performance measures than the original P6s. Brand new repops of a P6 (if they existed) will be markedly better than original ones were when new. New performance tires of the same class, if they existed in that size, would be much better but would also change the feel of the car pretty significantly.
Honestly, the P6 wasn’t the stickiest tire in its category when it was introduced. There was a tire called Phoenix Stahlflex which was the tire to have if you wanted to get the most from your car on a twisty road. I realize this may have been “before your time”.
Yeah it certainly wasn’t the stickiest around or even in its category – it’s just the first example that came to mind because they were on my Spider (the last set didn’t get replaced until 2008!) I’m 50, so I do remember those Phoenix Stahlflex ads in the back of the car magazines in the ’80s, though!
The General Altimax was a surprisingly good tire, but also, the two sets I’ve installed on two different cars came after really atrocious Goodyear Eagle LS OEM tires.
Friggin’ bean counters… They don’t realize the damage they do to a car’s handling reputation by saving what, $100 at most, on the tires the car is delivered with.
I’m not talking Porsche, BMW, MB et al. I’m talking VW (’01 Jetta) and Honda (’17 Accord). Both cars were so much better in so many ways with the Generals. Which are “Generally” not quite the most exotic things that Continental makes, but the genes seem to be there.
I’m sure Goodyear makes some good tires, but that they make something so bad and tempting for the OEM market is just sad.
My SE-R used to have some really nice Bridgestone V-rated all season performance tires on it but when it needed a new set in ~2016 those choices were all gone and I put Altimaxes on it. They’ve been quite good and more than good enough for the use the car sees. They’ll probably go on the Fiat, too.
You can really see this in some of the hot hatches running in the stock classes in SCCA Autocross, which will normally pull .8 to .9 G cornering on all weather tires and as much as 1 G on summer only performance tires. On DOT approved 200 Tread Wear Index “street” racing tires data recorders are showing 1.4 to 1.5 G cornering!
Neat!