Here’s a wild stat to start out the day: There are 41 plug-in hybrid (PHEV) models on sale in the United States. You know how many regular hybrid (HEV) models there are? Just 39. And, yet, HEVs are dramatically outselling PHEVs, as are electric cars. What’s the deal?
Not to get full-on Seinfeldian, but what’s the deal with Jaguar? They’re supposed to be going all-in on electric cars and are basically no longer making anything until that transition happens. And, have you ever noticed that Stellantis is in trouble with everyone? There’s something going on there, though dealers are now starting to like what they hear.
That’s one group that’s feeling better about the company, but even President Biden’s Press Secretary is chiming in on the promises Stellantis is making. GET OUT!
The Biggest Reason Why PHEVs Are Not Working Out
I like PHEVs. I think they’re a totally reasonable solution and a good transition technology. Unfortunately, PHEVs in the United States are not good enough. We’ve covered this before, but the ranges of most PHEVs in the United States are too low.
Here’s a list of vehicles and ranges:
- Jeep Wrangler 4xe: 22 miles
- Ford Escape plug-in: 37 miles
- Chrysler Pacifica PHEV: 32 miles
- Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe: 26 miles
- Hyundai Tucson PHEV: 33 miles
- Hyundai Santa Fe PHEV: 31 miles
- BMW X5 xDrive45e: 31 miles
- BMW 330e: 23 miles
- Toyota Prius Prime: 44 miles
- Lexus RX450H+: 37 miles
The big Lexus and Toyota Prius Prime are, maybe, good enough. The Volvo S60 Recharge is also ok at 41 miles. Anything significantly under 40 miles isn’t great, as it’s barely enough to go to work and back.
Because of the development time involved in making a car, a new car you see on the road now was likely first planned at least three years ago and probably more like four or five. This means most of the PHEVs out today were conceived back when automakers assumed: a higher take-rate for EVs than we’ve had; the old version of tax credits; charging infrastructure was bad; and BEVs are very expensive.
With the exception of the infrastructure assumption, almost every forecast has been wrong in some way. EV adoption has lagged, new tax credits currently work against buying most PHEVs, and many new EVs are expensive but the best EVs remain reasonably cheap.
In fact, a new study from JD Power shows that PHEVs are now way more expensive than HEVs and BEVs:
PHEVs are significantly more expensive to purchase than BEVs or HEVs. The average customer-facing transaction price (CFTP),for a PHEV in the compact SUV category is $48,700. That compares with an average CFTP of $37,700 for a HEV and $36,900 for a BEV in the compact SUV category.
This is actually the first study I’ve seen that shows BEVs are lower in price than hybrids, which I think reflects the model mix (hybrid trucks, Toyotas that rarely get discounted) and the fact that the Tesla-led price war and tax credits have driven BEV prices down a lot. I reached out to JD Power to find out if this includes leases, which would definitely pull the BEV number down.
Understandably, expensive PHEVs with a limited range aren’t exactly popular with customers. From the same study:
Overall customer satisfaction with PHEVs has been significantly lower than BEVs. Overall satisfaction with PHEVs is 669 (on a 1,000-point scale), while mass market BEVs (716) and premium BEVs (738) score significantly higher.
Not great! This might explain why the graphic above shows that there are now 60 BEVs, 41 PHEVs, and 39 HEVs on sale currently and, yet, HEVs are the most popular non-ICE vehicle followed by BEVs and PHEVs.
It doesn’t have to be this way! In China, there are PHEVs with real range (like the nearly 100-mile Chevy Equniox PHEV) and, even better, Range-Extended Electric Vehicles (REVs) that are EVs first and have a small gasoline generator, a la the i3, to provide more range in a pinch. The closest we’re getting is the Ram Ramcharger, which is a potentially game-changing product.
PHEVs are still a good idea, but the fact that there are 41 models on sale and they only cover 1.9% of the market means that all that product investment went to a tiny market that everyone is fighting over.
Jaguar Gets A New Strategist
The wild thing about Jaguar is that the entire company has paused production for a number of months as it makes the switch to an all-EV future. It’s just not making cars. Jaguar dealers have a ton of inventory, of course, so this doesn’t seem to be an issue right now.
With most automakers walking back their plans for complete electrification, I’m curious to see if this plan holds. Jaguar has the one advantage of being connected to Land Rover, which isn’t going full EV quite as soon.
All this talk about stopping production to assume that Jaguar was being killed off, a rumor that seems even more illogical in light of the news that Jaguar is mixing up its C-Suite with a heavy hitter according to Automotive News:
The automaker has hired Swarna Ramanathan as chief strategy officer from consultants McKinsey, where she was a leader in the company’s automotive and assembly division. Prior to that she worked at General Motors as an engineer.
Ramanathan takes over from Andrea Debbane, who did the job on an interim basis. Debbane gives up responsibility for strategy and continues in her role as JLR’s chief sustainability officer.
Both report to CEO Adrian Mardell.
There are a bunch of other people who swapped jobs, too, but I just want to reiterate that Jaguar isn’t going anywhere. It’s possible the EV sedan they’re going to show later this year is going to suck and they’ll be going in the wrong direction, but that’s still going somewhere.
Stellantis Makes Dealers Feel Better
The vibes at Stellantis have been bad, with everyone getting mad at the company. Suppliers, governments, workers, customers, and dealers have all been more than a little ticked off. The company badly needs to sell more cars in North America, so its first move seems to be an attempt to placate the same dealers who called the company a “disaster” in an open letter earlier this year.
So far, the application seems to be working.
“They’re coming ready to work with us, and not the previous approach, which was, ‘Figure out a way to get it done,'” Farrish, a Virginia dealer, said Wednesday.
The dealer-company gathering, which occurs every few months, centered on Stellantis’ Auburn Hills headquarters on Tuesday and involved 21 dealer council members and key executives like newly-appointed North America leader Antonio Filosa, who also heads the Jeep brand.
What does working with dealers look like? According to the report, that means putting dealer profitability front and center, trying to better understand North American consumer preferences, giving out better incentives, and killing the unpopular program that tied incentives to ordering more cars.
Well, that should just about solve it.
Everyone Else Is Still Kinda Mad At Stellantis
In full fairness to Stellantis, if it was my call I would also try to make the dealers happy first. There’s no use designing cars, making cars, or getting government incentives for cars if your front line isn’t on board. It’s full triage mode at Stellantis.
The workers are mad because they think part of the Stellantis triage plan involves cutting them out of agreements they’ve already made. The current White House doesn’t love this.
On Wednesday, Jean-Pierre said the administration applauded the UAW and Stellantis “for coming together after hard, good faith … negotiations, and also reaching a historic agreement that secured record raises, greater retirement security and investment in the future.” She noted that the agreement included “a commitment to reopen and expand production in communities that were devastated by previous plant closures.”
“What we want to see is Stellantis certainly deliver on those commitments to the UAW and to the communities that have long supported the industry. That’s what we want to see, and so we want Stellantis to keep their commitment,” she said.
That seems like a nice way of saying “There’s no way we have your back” to Stellantis if it tries to walk away from its plans.
Site Update
Is the site time-outing for you? We’re still having issues. Our apologies.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
After yesterday’s inclusion of Jeff Buckley’s cover of “Hallelujah” someone in the Discord (shout out Funkthulu) mentioned that a true artist created a version where it’s the tune matched to the lyrics of “Baby Got Back” by Sir-Mix-A-Lot and I’ll be damned if it doesn’t kinda work. Even though “Hallelujah” has become a song meant to convey peace, it’s really still just a song about humping.
The Big Question
How many miles should a PHEV have? Should we just ditch PHEVs for REVs?
50 miles as a bare minimum target. That should shuttle a great many, even in winter conditions. For me, that would easily cover my round trip commute and any additional runabouts while out.
Yup, was just going to say this. The sweet spot would be 50 miles of all-electric. That’s enough to do the work commute plus any other errands that might come up during the day/on the way home, and do it even in freezing weather.
Let’s see, how much range did a second gen Volt have? 53? Your story checks out.
I thought by now GM or Ford would come out with a PHEV Colorado/Ranger with 50-70 miles of EV range. Sell it for 55k and it would be a winner.
Almost as good is this slow cover of Cherry Pie.
https://soundcloud.com/rich-banks/cherry-pie-cover
It would help if Stellantis 4xe PHEV vehicles didn’t have loads of issues that dealers have no idea how to diagnose or repair. My friend had a Rubicon 4xe that he got rid of at a loss just to get out of the cycle of endless CEL and trips to the dealer, who would take his vehicle for 3 months at a time and not really fix it.
That is the kicker here for Stellantis. As I continue to see zero inventory at my local Toyota dealer (and a stop sale on the Grand Highlander) I keep looking for other options.
The Pacifica looks nice enough and Stow n Go is a great feature. It is cheap enough with $10k on the hood that I could get one and slap a big fat Mopar warranty on it. There, go ahead and blow up Pentastar, I got $100 for the deductible.
But what good is that if the dealerships (and include factory support there) are worthless to fix your car? The thing doesn’t need to run like a Swiss watch, but the customer service needs to be good when something does go wrong.
It was all the 4xe components. Their only plan was to replace every component, one part at a time. With many of the parts delayed for untold months. All while he was making payments and the car sat at the dealer. With no loaner vehicle.
Right, and that isn’t the first time I’ve hear of woes at the Chrysler/Jeep service department. The corrosion issues, the 4xe/Pacifica Hybrid issues, and anything else. Just not a good experience.
No Stow ‘n Go for the PHEV since the battery goes into the wells the seats would use. The non-stowable seats are more comfortable, though
The third row Stow ‘n Go-s.
The Pacifica has a totally different setup than the 4xe and dealerships are more able to fix them.
I think I am swinging around to the idea that depending on your situation either a hybrid or an EV with range extender is likely to be a better solution than a plug-in hybrid. *BUT* this all depends on price and availability at the end of the day. It seems like hybrids have decent availability at competitive prices in many vehicle segments but plug-ins not as much. And then if you can conveniently charge at home, you may also be likely to have multiple cars and prefer to go full EV for your commuter anyway. And the EV price wars fueled by Tesla have resulted in much more competitive prices too. So yeah, I favor variety of choice, but I’m willing to let plug-in hybrids go in favor EVs with range extenders at this point.
As long as the range extender let’s you keep using the car at real highway speeds as loong as it has fuel. Otherwise it’s a BMW i3.
Careful now. Go any further and you’re likely to get banned.
No, I like the i3 as a commuter car and one would work really well for me in that function, but the restrictions with the range extender are ludicrous.
okay, but hear me out here: someone should buy me a Cayenne Turbo e-Hybrid
I’d daily a free one, or a very cheap one. I have a home charger that is just sitting idle since we got rid or our Kia EV that was depreciating like the Titanic.
A 50 mile range should be just fine by me. I think a lot of people are a little stuck on the idea that their PHEV should use absolutely no gas unless it’s a road trip situation. It’s ok to use a little bit!
50 miles would just barely get me back and forth to work, and in the winter, gas would be needed to complete the trip home. But that’s way better than the alternative. Any more battery and lets get real, the expense and the robbing of passenger/cargo space is going to be a problem. That honker of a battery needs to go somewhere after all.
It is legitimately undesirable to use gas for short distances since you’d risk effectively short tripping the engine (not running the engine long enough to warm up), potentially causing wear/reliability problems.
It’s also kinda disappointing when it happens lol.
Many HEVs and PHEVs have management software that ensures the ICE engine is run enough to keep it lubricated and that the fuel doesn’t go stale.
Exactly. Even if it only runs on battery for half your miles, you doubled your mpg and halved your trips to the pump.
I could drive to work and back with 20 miles of battery power in moderate weather conditions.
If it were safe to for me to do, I’d consider getting an ebike for commuting the 4-6 months of the year the weather wouldn’t be too bad. Unfortunately, there’s no way to avoid multi-lane roads with narrow shoulders and no bike lanes on the commute.
Stellantis just needs to come up with a way to replace the 500,000-600,000 sales per year they are losing due to discontinuing fairly strong performing products with no replacements ready
I suspect that they should have started that process 4-5 years ago, and based on announced product, didn’t do.
I don’t think I’ve ever come across a person that hates Stellantis like you do, MH. It’s almost admirable, and it’s definitely palpable. lol.
I’m not sure he does though. There’s such a relentless own-goaling coming out of Stellantis it just… It’s a news stream all its own. Mix heavily with a cocky, useless CEO (so, uh, a CEO) and it’s an evergreen recipe for news. MH just happens to be the one running TMD where most of this comes through.
Plus, and, with all love, I know there are some soft touches on staff and I’d rather be told straight up that Tavares is pissing off everyone as much and as fast as possible than hear some milquetoast “strained relationship” bs. They’re angry at his mismanagement, and the whole company is floundering as a result. It’s okay to say so.
I agree with you.
It’s just funny to keep beating the shit outta Mr. Ed. I think the memo is clear at this point. Dr. House himself couldn’t revive that joint.
I really want a PHEV, and 40+ range is fine for that, but they’re too dang expensive. I just bought a new ride for the wife and couldn’t even realistically shop PHEVs. Too bad, maybe next time?
Try a lightly used one! They depreciate fast, are eligible for the $4k used tax credit, and have 100k mile warranties on the hybrid system. Not a lot not to like
As everyone else in the comments is saying, it’s the price. In my ideal world, I’d have a EREV with an ~120 mile battery range and a wee little efficient engine and generator to top it up at a sufficient rate to make highway driving possible. Ideally in a station wagon or hatchback form factor.
As it is, my next DD will probably be a depreciated EV sedan, and I’ll invest money in nicer seats for the truck for road trips, and maybe save up my pennies to stick a gearvendors overdrive on it to try and get the highway mileage up closer to 20.
I could drive the EV for free within range of my house, and only spend (way too much) on gas for the roadtrips where there really isn’t a viable charging network (i.e. everywhere in the west that isn’t the California coast)
Current PHEV’s architecture of basically just adding battery and a plug to a hybrid should go away, replace them with low range EVs with range extenders. The extra complexities and compromises just aren’t worthwhile. Any non-supercar that has EV only capability for more than a mile or two shouldn’t have complex, full feature engines, 8+ speed/CVT transmissions, etc, including a powertrain that needs to suddenly fire up the engine for full power/acceleration.
Make an 80-100 EV as the base vehicle, and add a simple, low feature engine that is only used for extra range. It can even have the ability to drive the front wheels directly (the hybrid system in the CRV is begging to be put into a full size EV pickup as a range extender in my opinion), but keep the engine part as simple as possible.
GM and the army apparently realize this- https://insideevs.com/news/737329/gm-defense-electric-diesel-tactical/, not sure why it is lagging in normal cars.
The problem with engine simplicity is that it still needs to pass emissions. In China, where PHEVs and REEVs are very popular, their engines still have DOHC and VVT, and sometimes direct injection and turbocharging. The only technologies missing are dual port and direct injection, fancier turbos (twin scroll, etc), cylinder deactivation and variable valve lift/duration. They often have high compression ratios too, but that’s mitigated by running Atkinson cycle.
Toyota and Ford have shown that there is little need for complexity with their eCVT transmission. Of course, their cross-licensing shuts out the rest of the industry from that solution.
PHEVs are great. But PHEVs inherently have very real drawbacks in building and producing them that are directly leading to the high prices, low availability of popular models and limited electric ranges that are hampering their adoption.
1. Cost. This is actually 3 parts related to manufacturing cost. The first is the battery itself. With a HEV, the capacities are so limited manufacturers can often get away with using cheaper NiMH batteries (looking at you, Toyota and Honda) rather than Li batteries (Li-ion or LiFP). The second part is that the more electric range you want from a PHEV, the more heavy and expensive battery you need to pack, and the heavier the car gets, again the more battery you need. Do automakers want to build PHEVs with Li-ion batteries with 50 mile ranges? You bet. Are their accountants telling them there’s no way they can sell them for an acceptable price and still make a profit? Very probably! The third part of cost is complexity. PHEVs have the full engines and transmissions of HEVs, and then you throw in charging and the structural support for a mini-BEV skateboard and its temperature regulation. Go look at the difference between powertrains for a RAV4 HEV and a RAV4 PHEV. That’s more assembly and manufacturing time, parts, and labor that goes into the PHEV.
2. Prices. Batteries are the most expensive part of BEVs, and proportionally you need ten times more battery for the PHEV then you do for a HEV. In the RAV4 PHEV, that’s 18.1 kWh of battery, instead of a relatively tiny 1.6 kWh in the RAV4 HEV. Toyota’s not going to sell that for a loss, and that’s why the RAV4 Prime is $10,000+ more expensive than for a RAV4 Hybrid. From a normal consumer of limited means, that’s a tough pill to swallow to get those sweet 42 miles of electric range. From a pure ROI standpoint, it doesn’t make much sense, unless you’re going to keep the RAV4 around forever, you already produce your own electricity through personal solar panels (or wind), or you think gas prices are going to $10 a gallon in the near future.
3. Goldilocks paradox. Sometimes trying to please everybody means that you please nobody. To spend the extra cash for a PHEV means you’re already comfortable with charging, scheduling your driving around charging, and making sure you have access to chargers, which is probably the biggest life changes to make for driving… a BEV. And if you’re spending $30-50K for a good PHEV with decent range… you could also be spending $30-50K for a good BEV, too! Unless you swear fealty to a car manufacturer that doesn’t offer good BEV options (Toyota, still looking at you), the only real use case for a PHEV over a BEV is if you’ll be driving in the boonies away from home for extended periods of time, or you absolutely have to take long road trips in the car and not wait half hour times for refueling.
About point #1: Basically everyone except Toyota has moved to Li-ion batteries, and Toyota is also transitioning to them whenever they redesign their non-trucky vehicles.
I want to heavily emphasize how HEVs can get away with air cooled batteries (basically just a cabin vent, a fan, and a couple finned heatsinks), while PHEVs need full liquid cooling systems for their batteries.
I disagree with your third point. Why would you need to do anything differently other than charging at home? A PHEV is a perfect fit for me. I either drive short distances or very, very long ones with no middle ground. I do NOT have any interest at all with dealing a BEV on my trips between my homes in Maine and Florida. But with even 25 miles of EV range I could do 90% of my trips on electrons painlessly. And that small of a battery charges just fine on a plain old 110V outlet, no “charger” required.
IMHO, the price difference between HEV and PHEV is largely down to “because they can” and the tax credits available for PHEVs that just jack up the price.
It is the price. While I love the idea of not using gas, I buy hybrids to reduce operating costs. So the math has to work.
The RAV4 Prime is about $10k more than a RAV4 Hybrid. The Prius is a bit better, but still probably $7-8k more. It is tougher to compare the Prius/Prius Prime trim levels apples to apples. Even if gas became…$6/gal, you can buy a lot of gas for $10k, especially when your hybrid gets 40+ mpg.
Now maybe that choice becomes easier when you are comparing a gas Wrangler to a 4xe.
Regarding range, my commute is about 80 miles round trip. I can’t charge at work. It’d be great to have enough electric range to do my commute, but I also know I have a longer than average commute, so I don’t expect that.
But that means some PHEVs struggle to be much better for me commuting when you consider the EV range and the gas mileage you get when you are off battery, which for some isn’t that great. I considered buying a Volt years ago, but after running out the battery range, I’d be getting worse gas mileage than a Prius on my way home. So in the end, the Prius was the better move for me.
The RAV4 Prime was a great deal with the now gone 7500.00 tax credit. Ridiculous pricing now. I was lucky and am very happy with it.
The reason why there’s so many PHEV models compared to HEVs is mostly because luxury automakers often only make the former and not the latter; amongst the volume mainstream brands, HEVs are as common than PHEVs.
PHEVs with an EPA range rating of 55-70mi seem extremely viable to me; in general, 50+ miles of range is good, and Toyota’s RAV4 could easily push past that barrier with a low 20s-kWh battery compared with the ~18kWh it has right now.
Most PHEVs are based on ICE car designs that don’t prioritize aerodynamics as much, which hurts EV efficiency in the real world much harder than it does to ICEs. Because of this, you’d need to aim higher for EPA range than you’d expect for good real world highway range, and it’s why I chose 55miles to cover the national average 42mi commute distance.
At least 100 miles. America big.
Regarding the site, it’s rolling for me. If I can’t reach it, I wait about 20 mins to an hour and then I can get in.
My sorta lukewarm take is that PHEVs (and hybrids) are not ideal because dual powertrain. Will the added costs always bite you? No. But they could. Small battery size should in theory translate to an easy swap depending on where they stash it.
In my opinion, 100 miles is firmly in range extender EV (REEV) territory, since battery sizes to achieve that sort of range already encroaches on the pack sizes of small BEVs. I think it’s hard to go past the 25kWh mark without running out of space to fit a full size engine, fuel tank and exhaust pipe (including cats and mufflers) required in a 2-row crossover PHEV. The solution would be make it a REEV with a much smaller engine and exhaust system, or perhaps even a side exit exhaust (highly unlikely but we can dream).
50 Miles. Yes, Range Extended EVs should be the standard, not PHEVs.
Just make them so that they’re BEV only mode unless the battery is low and or you’re going 45+ MPH which would allow you to start the ICE engine, and or it’s very cold outside and your battery need to heat up.
If they’re BEV only at city/town speeds it cuts tailpipe emissions where it matters most.
Yes. It takes 3 or 4 times to get in.
To add to my post, the issue seems to be more on my Android phone than my Google Chrome browser.
I’ve been too lazy to switch to Firefox, but Android Chrome has been having lag issues when switching tabs for the past couple of months across sites
Only here for me.
Is this related to today’s music selection?
I just want an i3 REX but with a slightly more powerful range extender and a 10 gallon tank, is that really so hard BMW?
To what degree is the lack of PHEV sales due to low inventory or other specific factors? Prius Primes are almost non-existent where I live and tend to be show up on searches one state over where state-level incentives are in play; there are a few RAV4 Primes, but the price delta over both hybrid and gas models is hefty. I’ve looked around at local Hyundai and Kia dealers and saw none except for Niros, and most of those were hybrids rather than plug-ins, and I haven’t seen a 330e at BMW dealers either. Jeeps are around but had a significantly higher street price than gas-only models last time I was looking (and isn’t there a recall going on or just recently wrapped up?), and the Pacifica could be a really nice choice if it didn’t own the lowest spot on Consumer Reports’ list of least reliable new cars. HEV market shares are going to climb because they now comprise most (Accord) or all (Camry) current offerings of the two most popular cars (and despite the consumer shift to crossovers and trucks, still two of the most popular vehicles of any type) and will continue to expand as the 2025 Civic rolls out. PHEVs seem to be sidebars to the gas and HEV nameplates they share and don’t get the same degree of marketing emphasis when if anything they need more to better explain the concept to buyers who aren’t paying close attention to the industry.
Where do you live? I know some brands only bother stocking PHEVs (and hybrids to an extent) in areas where they think they will sell. In my area there are a ton of RAV4 Primes around. They even get discounted now. Prius Primes are still a bit harder to find, but the Prius had a stop sale for a bit so I think there was still pent up demand. I also see Kia PHEVs, 330e’s, a bunch of X5 PHEVs, etc.
Southeastern Virginia. There aren’t any state incentives apart from the HOV lanes, and traffic here isn’t bad enough to encourage someone to spend extra in order to have access. It has been a few months since I’ve looked, but I usually open the search up to a radius at least as far as Richmond (100 miles) and the PHEVs and even low-volume EVs (was considering a BZ4X when there was an absurdly low lease rate in April) start to appear at southern Maryland dealers where there are additional incentives. More appear in a 200-mile radius where Northern Virginia dealers are likelier to carry them.
Using autotrader.com with search parameters set to “New”, “PHEV” and within 75 miles of my former office there are 364 hits, but 213 are Jeeps, 22 are Dodged and there are Chryslers. There are 30 Fords and eight Lincolns; 24 Hyundais (all Tucsons) and 23.Kias (all but one Sportages, and the Sportage I clicked on is in suburban Baltimore, well over 100 miles away); 15 Audis, 14 Mazdas, six Mitsubishis, five Volvos and a BMW. The closest Toyotas are between 75 and 100 miles, probably in either exurban St Mary’s County, Maryland or smallish Salisbury that serves as the sorta-urban destination for most of the Delmarva Eastern Shore. This is very much a middle-income and heavily military area, but there are healthy numbers of BMWs sold and the radius encompasses two million people or so. (Note that cars.com had no hits at all, which I knew wasn’t accurate, and I didn’t comb through to see how many dealers weren’t listed or how many hits were false.)
I’m in Northern VA. They are here. And in MD near DC and Baltimore.
Maryland is a CARB state, so they get even more in terms of EVs.
We’re semi-CARB now, kinda? I know the General Assembly had passed legislation to that effect (but without any incentives), but Youngkin started pulling away from at least the EV mandate.
Where I live (Oklahoma), the only PHEVs that are actually easy to find are the Pacifica and the Volvo XC90. Kia/Hyundai won’t sell you one in this state, as they’re going to allocate them to states that have tax incentives or emissions requirements. BMW doesn’t seem to give a toss, as I’ve never seen a 530e or 330e on one of the lots here. Volvo will occasionally get an S90, S60 or XC60 PHEV, but those are pretty uncommon. The RAV4 Prime and Prius Prime seem to only be for special orders, the dealers just won’t order them on spec, or they don’t last long enough on the lot to be available if you didn’t order one. They’re all pre-sold.
Isn’t the lowest spot of the least reliable list a good thing? Seems like that would mean the most reliable. (I’m kidding, mostly)
Why are PHEVs sooo expensive? If it’s the battery- BEVs should cost more. If its the duel drivetraings- HEVs should cost the same amount. PHEVs seem to be the ideal vehicle for me (I have a garage adn I mostly drive around my small town, but need to go to Detroit or Chicago about once a month) but, holy shit the cost. Why.
I think a ton of the cost is ultimately just the battery materials. Most hybrids have sub-3kWh battery packs, while google tells me the average PHEV pack is about 20 kWh. At roughly a cost of $125-150/kWh in Lithium, that’s about 2k USD more in just lithium over a standard Hybrid. Then you need a larger motor than a typical hybrid, generally a liquid cooled pack instead of a standard hybrid air cooled battery, thicker cables for higher current draw, and it does quickly expand into a sizable production cost increase. It absolutely suck, but it’s not without some reason.
Not only what you said about battery quantity, but many HEVs are built with NiMH batteries instead of lithium batteries in PHEVs and BEVs, meaning the manufacturer is already saving a qualitative 40-60%ish on buying cheaper NiMH rather than lithium already, before you factor in the need for ten times the amount of battery in a PHEV.
HEVs get significant cost savings by:
– simply having 10x less batteries
– being air cooled rather than having a full liquid cooling system
– weighing less and requiring less strength/reinforcement due to safer placement
– not having equipment for plug-in charging
– not having to do wacky exhaust pipe routing
– potential to use cheaper, less dense battery chemistries (NiMH, theoretically LFP, though everyone is moving to Li-ion NMC nowadays)
“How many miles should a PHEV have?”
Well, the average American commute is apparently 42 miles round-trip. You probably want to account for a trip to the grocery store or to do the school run, so I would say 50 miles is probably the minimum for PHEVs to be truly viable for the majority of the public.
I firmly agree with you on a 50 mile range
Getting 80% of your commute done on electrons and then sipping a half gallon of gas a day is probably better for the car than never firing up the ICE.
Give me an AWD PHEV Maverick with 40 miles of range and preferably some serious attention to NVH on the Lariat. Then give me a pen to sign on the dotted line.
The problem is most consumers are apparently treating the PHEV as a standard hybrid and never plugging it in. Why pay $40k for a PHEV when you can pay $30k for the HEV variant. Consumers either don’t fully understand the distinction between PHEV and HEV or they have no suitable place to charge it.
I love my hybrid Maverick, but it doesn’t fit in my garage, so I’d have to run an extension cord if it was a PHEV. Not a dealbreaker, but not optimal.
Consumers not plugging in the PHEV is crazy to me. They paid a serious premium for … extra battery weight?
IIRC a lot of that statistic comes from companies leasing PHEVs for incentives. So the employees don’t really care about the savings because they probably have a company funded gas card anyways. Or you have brands like Jeep pushing PHEVs hard to make up ZEV/CAFE credit so people choose them because at the end of the day they just lease cheaper than the ICE version.
Peoples be not so bright.
I suspect that there simply isn’t enough space for a battery big enough to go 40 miles in the Maverick; consider that the Escape PHEV’s 14.4kWh (~10kWh usable) battery allows it a range of 37mi, and that the Maverick has significantly worse aerodynamics. I’d reckon that the Maverick would get range in the high 20s with the same battery. You’d likely need over 20kWh to get it to 40 miles, and despite it being longer than the Escape, I think there’d still not be enough space to squeeze it in.
I’m religious about plugging mine in – if I don’t go out of town, I can get 2K+ miles on a tank of gas. Though I did have to put in a pass-through in the garage wall so I can plug in while parked in the driveway, since the garage is full of project vehicles.
I think with a Maverick, you’d have to choose between AWD and PHEV, since the most logical place for the extra battery is where the driveshaft and rear diff would live.
I have a Volt, and honestly besides David’s i3’s, they have a one of the best amounts of range..still. It’s always been sad to me how in a country that is designed for cars, the PHEV ranges seem more setup for those who drive only to the corner store. With a range of 33 (rated) being more or less average, the real world range is so low, that unless you are just doing very short trips, they don’t make sense, and the range just makes a hybrid a better choice.
Chevy made the Volt and then abandoned that entire design. Why didn’t they work it into a van? Or into an SUV?
I think the design lives on in China, in the form of the Equinox PHEV and a few Buicks.
I Think a PHEV’s ideal range is about 50 miles, at least for consumers to seriously want one. Realistically, 30-40 should be more than enough for most people, but 50 is a nice round number that should give the average person well over a round-trip commute on a charge, if not two commutes.
If I’ve learned anything watching EV sales, 300 is the magic number for someone to spend big money on an EV, otherwise it better be close and cheap like the Bolt. 50 feels like that number for PHEVs that people want, but maybe don’t NEED, to want to spend the extra to get into a PHEV.
The general public, especially in the US is real bad at estimating driving distances, everyone seems to buy a size class larger than necessary because “What if I NEED this much space once a year??” and same goes for electric range. People want to feel secure and covered, which means over-buying for the peace of mind. It’s not rational, but as we know, car buying never is.
I also think 50 is about right. It was my first thought when I read the question, though I don’t really have any reasoning behind it. My commute is about 12 miles each way so I suppose 25 would be good enough, but I think my commute is probably shorter than most/many.
Remember that a lot of us live with severe winters and overestimating range needs is not just about longer trips, but also colder ones.
Some of us live where it’s cold with elevation changes on our commute so rated range is doubly compromised.
Were I in the market today, I’d adjust my range expectations for anything with a battery accordingly.
Oh absolutely, that’s completely valid, cold weather range does need to be factored in. That said I’ve talked with people who have a two car garage, a 3-Row ICE vehicle for their kids, and want an EV for around town, and claim that a 238mi Chevy Bolt does not have enough range, when it would never go more than 50 miles one way, and never drive when the roads are bad. As with everything, there’s a spectrum to car buyers, some more rational that others.
I think when you start to look at the realities of the 2 car household, neither person wants to get ‘stuck’ with the low range BEV. Plus the 3 row is more useful around town while hauling the kids.
I’d be fine having one “commuter” car and one car better suited for long distance trips. We kind of do now. The Prius isn’t the greatest road trip vehicle for comfort.
But I am not going to spend “new car” money on a commuter car. When Bolts were $20k, I was interested. Bump up to $30k and I’m in Prius territory again where I could take it on a road trip if I needed to and still get around town cheaply enough.
Not just that but we’ve been trained by decades of EPA estimated fuel economy numbers that fail to reach the lofty estimates so I am of the opinion that no one really trusts the numbers that are posted. Just look at EV numbers on range and they’re all over the place, especially when you factor in differences between US and EU testing methods.
Then there’s how poor electric motors do for highway driving which is a lot of people’s commute.
I think 100 miles of range is where they should be but I’d probably accept anything above 75 miles of stated range with the expectation I can get 50 at least. I don’t think that the majority of people who have garages and can charge at home can do with 40 miles since (if you have a garage) you likely have a longer commute.
Averages always look interesting as in the average commute is ~14 miles. That means a lot of people live in the city with a 1-2 mile commute and a lot live out in the suburbs with a 28-30 mile commute. The 40 mile range doesn’t get it done if you can’t charge at work.
I’d mostly agree with this. 20-50 is fine. Automakers clearly built around a specific battery pack size for the credit – and on an SUV that’s around 20-25 miles and on a small vehicle they can push 40-50. There’s no pressure on efficiency so Stellantis just threw it all together regardless of efficiency.
My primary issue is that automakers are still using complicated ICE engines – FCA with the 2.0T and Volvo with the Super/Turbo engines? Now you end up with all the most expensive failure modes for all vehicles.
If the Wrangler/Grand Cherokee were using the V6 like the Pacifica – I might consider it. Automakers have figured out how to make PHEV a “worst of all worlds” situation. Except Toyota.
I’d round a bit higher to at least 60. Probably don’t need 100, so 60-80ish. That factors in a buffer for climate/geo as discussed below, and accounts for a couple use cases that theoretically allow someone to not plug in every day:
Why days in between charges – just because one can charge every day at home doesn’t mean they will every time. Weather, shuffling cars, time/scheduling – having that buffer means it won’t feel like a hassle and should encourage the use of electric, rather than not bothering and just leaving it in gas mode.
Give me the A3 hatch with 88mi of PHEV range, Audi. Gimme.