The path to my Chevrolet Silverado ownership was not planned, and it certainly wasn’t a great financial decision, though my 2015 model has been a good addition to our household fleet and does its job quite well. It’s a basic Chevy work truck with rubber flooring and the only reason I own that truck is because I thought it would be a fun idea to buy a daily driver with a rebuilt title.
I toyed with the idea of buying a vehicle with a rebuilt title many times over the years because I understood that insurance companies will often total a vehicle that is actually quite alright aside from tedious and laborious repairs. What I didn’t foresee; however, was the total headache I’d have trying to get rid of a vehicle with a rebuilt title.
Rewind to the COVID-19 pandemic: Our household needed a different daily driver as a family vehicle. We went through all the usual motions and I did all of my research like I do as a car nerd. Because the market was off the rails with high prices, I looked into rebuilt vehicles since they were substantially cheaper.
[Ed note: ADA is a reader and sometimes contributor who has a lot of experience in the insurance industry, which he sometimes shares with us. This story is a bit more personal. – MH]
We had owned a 2006 Honda CR-V five-speed and it fit our two kids/two large dogs life very well so I decided to look for something similar. Unfortunately, very little SUV or wagon-shaped is available with a manual anymore, or at least not in our budget of under $20k. Even the automatics available were saddled with either high mileage or high price.
How I Ended Up With A Rebuilt Toyota
After several weeks of looking, I came across a mechanic nearby who rebuilt vehicles and sold them from his body shop. He had a 2017 Toyota RAV4 that had very low mileage and was within our budget with a $14,000 asking price.
The exact same spec vehicle at the local Toyota dealership had an asking price of $25,000 with similar mileage. We spent a long time talking to the mechanic and we learned that the reason the car was deemed a total loss was due to mouse damage. They had gotten into the headliner through the dash and damaged the heater core, headliner, trim, and some other small things, so the insurance totaled it out.
The mechanic showed us photos of the work he did to replace all of the damage, so we looked the car over. It all checked out and every system of the car worked fine, including all the ADAS features and sensors. It had none of the electrical gremlins I had worried about, so we bought the car.
We drove the RAV for a year or so before really deciding that we just didn’t enjoy it. Like an awkward breakup, we felt: “It’s not you, it’s me.” The RAV4 is a fine transportation appliance for most focus groups and it has worked for millions of people, but, for us, it elicited no joy and the car just didn’t have a personality, even with modifications we did to try and give it one. We took off the badges and put RAVIOLI on the back, and that made it slightly better, but it just didn’t have the fizz as James May would have said.
It was all hard plastic and had basic, barely comfortable seating inside. However, the worst sin in our mind was the way it drove. Toyota engineers clearly designed the RAV4 for interstates and city driving and not for the Maine roads where we live. These roads contain rolling hills and curves that usually have a 35-50mph speed limit. This RAV4’s transmission was a six-speed automatic that seemed aggressively tuned to its top gear as fast as possible. It would hunt and peck for the right gear all day on our commutes. Often it would drop one, then two gears for about eight seconds, then go back up to its low RPM top gear, only to do it all over again on the next crest. We hated it and it had to go.
This is where the headaches began. If you’ve never had to try and sell a car with a rebuilt title, you are lucky. The endless amounts of questions on Facebook Marketplace, Craigslist, and in person were enough to make me swear off ever doing it again. Explaining that it wasn’t flooded, wasn’t in an accident, and wasn’t broken in any way was just the beginning of the headache.
Then I had to explain that no, financing was not possible since banks do not lend auto loans for rebuilt vehicles. I’m sure it wouldn’t have been an issue if the car was cheap, like under $5k, but it wasn’t. The book value was high for any RAV4 at that point, and even discounting the same savings we got when purchased didn’t help since it just made people rabid to get first dibs on a Toyota for less than $13,000.
I had about 45 messages in the first 24 hours of listing it. I had people from four states away reaching out. I had to explain everything that was CLEARLY written in the listing because, of course, people just don’t read or comprehend what rebuilt titles mean. After several months of listing hell, I added “trade for a truck” to the bottom. It was a desperate moonshot that we could trade our way out of the impossible proposition of finding a very specific buyer for the rebuilt RAV4.
The Venn diagram of practical daily driver, a pile of cash, and a buyer who is OK with branded title vehicles has very little overlap. Sure, there were people who had cash and needed a daily. Yes, there were people who had cash and were ok with branded titles, but they were probably shopping for rebuilt sports cars or potential rally vehicles. These two types of buyers’ needs were vastly different from one another, so our market was basically zero, zilch, nada. We had numerous attempts at purchase where people got cold feet and backed out even after having the car looked over by a mechanic with no issues found. It was a huge time suck and hassle.
It All Worked Out In The End, Though
Finally, after we were thinking we would be living with the boring appliance for the next two decades, I got a ping in my inbox: “Have truck.” Photos were exchanged, and I repeatedly reminded the buyer that it was a rebuilt title as was usual by now for my typed exchanges. I looked at the photos of the truck, ran the value, and frantically did as much research on a 2015 Silverado as I could before I lost the chance to make a deal happen. It had 200,000 miles. Our RAV4 had 46,000.
The buyer offered $3000 on top of the trade and we agreed to meet where they lived in Worcester, MA. So I detailed and cleaned out the RAV4, packed the title, and nervously drove 1.5 hours to a neighborhood I’d never been to in MA. I parked at the address and minutes later a gentleman showed up in the white work truck. He had very obviously just left work from some kind of automotive shop since he was covered in grease and eager to get back to work. The truck had a few cosmetic issues that were not in the photos he shared. There was a quick mention of: “Here is the truck” and “Transmission rebuilt, no receipt, shop down there (pointing down the street).”
I took the truck for a test drive on side streets with the owner; the 4WD worked and it was not rusty in all of the worrisome areas. Good enough for me, since it would be our only shot at unloading that RAV4. We then drove the RAV. I was really hoping he liked it. He didn’t say anything except “Oh shit, cop” when we saw the local constabulary.
I felt nervous and excited to be counting a wad of cash in a random parking lot, signing titles and swapping license plates from one vehicle to another. It was like a Breaking Bad episode with cars instead of drugs. But finally, it was done. No more rebuilt title vehicle! I was the proud owner of my first-ever American pickup, first GM product, and first V8. A huge weight was lifted and I could now relax and get to know a new-to-me vehicle.
In the end, it worked out OK, but I would not recommend buying a rebuilt vehicle as a daily driver, and certainly not one that was more than four figures. The headaches when trying to sell it were not worth my time and frustration. If we’d enjoyed the RAV4, we would have no story to tell, and no adventures in car sales hell. It would have just been a tale of us being wise and getting a working car for much less than inflated pandemic prices.
Instead, learn from my example. There are plenty of situations where a rebuilt title makes sense, but this wasn’t one of them.
All photos Author
Rodent damage can be odd in salvage- in Saskatchewan any RV with rodent damage is branded parts only so you can see 2 year old motorhomes going cheap but there is no way to get them back on the road legally- I don’t think I could convince anybody that I home built a 40 foot diesel pusher with four slides
God I love lowered trucks so friggin much.
On topic: I’d think it would be difficult to sell anything costing more than double digits; not just because of rebuilt title making financing harder (people finance for private transactions?). That being said I bought a $10,000 motorcycle with a debit card. Just called my bank and they removed all spending limits for 12 hours. Scary how easy that was.
I did a lightstream loan to get my “Lotus”. Homebuilt. A couple emails later I have the cash in my account and I was borderline appalled at how easy it was. Appalled/thrilled.
Counterpoint: Back in 2017, I bought a 2012 Fiesta that had a tree fall on it during a storm, and was a total write off. Only had 40K miles on it. Got it at auction for under a grand. Put less than a grand into fixing it. (Replaced the hood, windscreen, and repaired the A-Pillar.) Got a reconstructed title on it and started using it as my daily driver.
Still driving it today. It’s now at 220K miles and has never had any major mechanic issues, and has never left me stranded not even once.
The real kicker? It’s an automatic with the DCT. A DCT that must have been smacked into working right by the tree, because I’ve never had a single issue with it. Never been serviced, and has never needed to be. Works perfect.
The entire car has been bulletproof, and has been one of the best and most reliable cars I’ve ever owned. It’s also been one of the cheapest. One of the best decisions I’ve ever made.
So… you won’t buy another rebuilt title vehicle merely because it was harder to sell?
That doesn’t seem like a good reason to me for anyone who plans on buying a vehicle to keep for a long time until it’s worn out.
And you traded that perfectly good but “boring” Toyota with low-ish miles for a 200,000 mile GM pickup truck?
Seriously???
From a driving dynamics perspective, I seriously doubt the pickup truck will be more ‘fun’ to own… unless your idea of ‘fun’ is spending more on repairs and more on fuel.
I’m sorry but the way I see it, this story has ‘poor life choices’ written all over it.
Counterpoint: If you’re the kind of person who will own a car forever and drive it into the ground, this could be a great option. Could be. But it has to be the perfect car, such as Ada’s example where it has been professionally repaired and has no remaining problems. That’s my fear with rebuilt titles: It’s hard to trust the person who fixed up the car.
I feel like I am in some Twilight Zone with my cars when there is an accident. My insurer never wants to total them. We had a car that was passed down from me to my oldest and then to my middle child and was involved in 3 wrecks over 11 years (none of them our fault). I called it the Jeep of Theseus because so many repairs were done to it. When I finally got rid of it so my kid could have something more reliable to take to college, I got a good bit less than the costs of the last set of repairs from the year before. Meanwhile, I always hear these stories of carriers with itchy trigger fingers wanting to total cars.
Yeah, this happened to my parents with a brand new Toyota Matrix. They had to get a lawyer involved to get the car written off. This was the first car they had bought outright after years of leasing, so it stung especially hard.
My dad got t-boned in the passenger front end by a red light runner. The vehicle was completely mangled, with extensive frame damage. The entire passenger front end, A pillar, windshield and door were bashed in, and the engine was pushed to the side. All airbags deployed.
The insurance company sent the car to Toyota’s “preferred collision center” in the area, and they wanted to fix it. My dad and I went to visit the car, and I recall even as a teen how awful and unprofessional the place was- One big dirty room, garbage everywhere, with cars being painted out in the open with barely any masking.
I suspect my parents ran into the perfect storm- A Toyota with 3 digits on the Odo, combined with a dirt-tier body shop that would attempt the repair for peanuts. This happened with my friends newish Kia Soul as well- The body shop badly underestimated the repair, and ended up spending $16,000 to repair a ~$17,000 car, with non-serious but fairly extensive front and rear impact damage. He was leasing though, so things worked out fine in the end.
Even with insurance companies overzealous to write off vehicles, it seems some fairly serious collisions can get repaired if the vehicle hasn’t depreciated much.
It’s also difficult to sell a car with an accident reported on its Carfax. The car in question was a 2006 Scion Tc that my mother bought new. It had well under 100k miles on it and was in basically perfect condition. The accident damage had been repaired properly and even though I knew where to look, I couldn’t tell what work had been done. People would call about it and as soon as they heard it had been in an accident, they hung up. They weren’t interested in any details. I finally found a buyer who was looking for a bargain and willing to take a look. He bought it within minutes of laying eyes on it.
I go through that with every vehicle I sell, regardless of title.
When I buy a used vehicle, I understand that it’s not going to be perfect. I read the ad, ask relevant questions, arrive on time, and bring cash. If I’m not willing to pay 80%+ of the asking price, I don’t even call.
When I list a vehicle for sale, none of those things happen.
Also, every car I sell has new tires. Every car I buy has bald tires.
Learned that lesson. I got my daughter a 2009 Vibe as a first car (only $3-4k). It was a complete rattle trap and I had to replace the front struts when I got it. When I was under it, it was shocking how many zip ties were holding on the plastic bits. As these failed, the car started getting more noising with flapping plastic and a constant battle with trying to keep things on the car while my busy daughter was running to work regularly between taking classes in high school.
Then she called me from work. The “Pony” had lit up the dash like a Christmas tree and she figured she wasn’t far from work, so she kept driving it. I went to look at it and found the radiator had been repaired with JB Weld or something and that had failed. She had driven it bone dry for about 2 miles. Now the engine wouldn’t turn over.
In my state, the requirements for a rebuilt title are that the safety systems have to work (airbags and seat belts), and any frame damage is repaired by someone with a license, the body panels have to match and you need to have a bond in case the brakes fail or the like and causes an accident. Nothing about having good parts in it, or not using duct tape and zip ties to do repairs and the like.
I don’t even want a vehicle that has been in an accident at all in my fleet. My daughter’s second car is a Camry. I’ve driven it, it’s a nice driving car, although the steering wheel digs into my thumb with hard plastic. The transmission made noise and I got that fixed with a long series of flushes at a shop I trust. It’s a good car. But it took a bump on the nose and it’s impossible to keep the front bumper on nice up there because either the clip or bumper or something is broken and the panels under it are just enough out of alignment that you can’t get it right. It doesn’t impact driving, but it does look janky. And the Carfax shows “minor damage” which obviously wasn’t fixed right.
Mice in a headliner pretty much is droppings and new antenna wiring. There are roof airbags. They are replaceable. That along with maybe a new headliner is as serious as this gets.That was a pretty decent rebuilt.
Trading it off for any GM anything scares the hell out of me.
Glad you are happy.
Having dealt with a fair number of salvage cars for my kids and myself, I Always have another mechanic or two look things over after I am done, just in case I missed anything.
When it’s all said and done…
Caveat emptor (buyer beware).
In the UK we don’t have your title issue, but cars that are written off by insurance companies do get a flag on the database.
I bought a ‘97 BMW E36 323i Coupe from a dealer, the V5 (the registration document) was “in the post” but I needed a car and it was cheap. I’m also an idiot.
Back then I’d buy a car for a grand or two, then run it into the ground and scrap it. This BMW ended that.
The V5 turned up, it was a Cat C write-off in 2002, with 13 previous owners. It was a sixteen year old car at this point, and it looked like no one kept it longer than a year.
The first couple of months weren’t bad, it made a lovely noise, looked fantastic (full M3 body kit) and handled great. But after that something went wrong with it every week. Misfire, clutch engagement point dropped to the carpet, AC died, passenger side heating was stuck on high, passenger window stuck up, loads of grief. The front right hand side looked about five years newer than the rest of the car, but the real problem was over a decade of previous owners who bought a cheap car,never fixed anything, then flipped it to another cheap idiot.
After 18 months I donated it to a motorsports club. No one else wanted it, not even for free, despite it being worth more in parts than as a car. I could have tidied it up and lied to a buyer, but I’m not a dick.
I kept the M3 mirrors to hang on my trophy wall.
I can’t help but think of a Quintessential British Gentleman in a monocle and pith helmet directing Jeeves to hang “the ears of that Bavarian monster” in the trophy room, alongside the spoils of hunting safaris like Cape buffalo heads and snarling leopards.
Wow. I like your version of me much better.
My social level in the UK’s baffling class system is somewhere below Jeeves.
The M3 mirrors will always be known as “the ears of that Bavarian monster” from now on. Thank you.
It’s a strange thought that an insurance company could “total out” a vehicle.
I have had an accident (someone ran into our car) that resulted in a “if we are honest, it is totalled” situation. But German rules being what they are, we had the damage inspected by an independent appraiser, who found that repairing the car would not result in a loss of resale value (a tall statement, but hey), and that the cost of repairing it was within 10% of “replacement cost” (the cost of procuring another similar vehicle in comparable state to ours before the crash).
The insurance company of the other driver tried to pull a fast one and offered us some compensation if we sold the car in its damaged state at an predetermined price. We refused (partly because the car had already been repaired at that point, which they knew because they already had the invoice). We had to sue the insurance company, but in the end they caved before the matter went to court, and paid up. We had a repaired vehicle with a clean title after that.
We did end up selling it though, which was difficult.
“I’m sure it wouldn’t have been an issue if the car was cheap, like under $5k, but it wasn’t.”
This is one of the two circumstances under which one should buy a salvage/rebuilt vehicle. 14 grand can account for a lot of damage. 5,000 cannot. If the vehicle was first salvaged at a time when it was cheap, AND it appears to be in good condition with no obvious BS, you can be pretty sure that the damage was minor.
If the car was salvaged when it was closer to new, and you don’t have receipts for everything, you’ll never know for sure.
The other circumstance is yours, where you can verify what the damage was, that it wasn’t deal-breaking, and how it was repaired (buying from the person who salvaged it, you can do this. Buying from subsequent owners you probably cannot), but then you drive it into the fucking ground. You don’t even try to sell it.
This is the way.
Cars today get totalled even with minor damage because expensive parts are placed in vulnerable locations. It’s almost as if they intended it that way?
Recently had the pleasure of shopping for salvage Ford Escape parts. On eBay, you can usually see the picture of the crashed car the parts were taken from. Ton of them have light damage to the front driver side corner. Later during the job I found the engine controller tucked between the front tire and bumper and understood why.
I’m an automotive design engineer. Any expensive item in an easily damaged location is not intentional.
In fact making a car cheap to repair after a crash is a design criteria because low insurance grouping increases sales.
This is one problem with the car YouTubers of the world. For example I like the legit street cars channel. But this guy has 15-20 years of experience as a mechanic and a fully decked out shop. He has the ability/tools/space to take on just about any issue that can come up during the series with the car or any time after. He encourages people to DIY and I think that is a generally good idea to encourage.
(Here comes the really big…)
But, this may be encouraging/enabling/causing unsafe vehicles to get back on the road again.(At least in the states). Many states are pretty lax about safety checks and only care that the obd2 port says it runs clean. Flood cars are great at failing later on in their life. Other cheap fixes may or may not work long term either. That said it is great entertainment watching a car get brought back to life based on entertainment value.
I’ve had a couple salvage title cars. In each case I paid about half the going rate when I bought them, kept them for about four years, and sold on with no trouble at 3/4 the going rate for similar car/mileage.
You should have sucked it up and just kept the thing, boring or not (and there are fewer things more boring than a recent RAV4). A 200K GM truck of that vintage? GOOOOOD LUUUUUCK – you are likely to need it. My brother and sister-in-law had one of those each, rolling disasters as they aged.
That’s not a nice thing to say about your brother and his wife 🙂
Oh, I am on record saying MUCH worse things about my dipshit little brother and his even dumber wife. 😉
I should have strangled him in his crib. I was cute back then, I would have gotten away with it. Would have saved the world a lot of trouble.
The only rebuilt title car I’ve owned was a $900 Subaru. I cannot imagine owning anything of actual value that was rebuilt, unless we are talking for track or farm use.
A dealer in my old home town specialized in sporty, higher end, salvage title cars. The sales manager said their $100k+ cars were often sold to folks in middle eastern countries. I was told they had financing available. I ultimately bought an S2000 from a private party instead.
I always find it telling when there’s glaring issues (like your mentioned cosmetic issues) that purposely aren’t disclosed in the photos. Either the person purposely didn’t mention it, or didn’t care to think it was important; both people I don’t want to buy a car from, especially a 200,000 mile GM product lolll. Best of luck.
Clean title or not, $3000 or not, I would not be excited to swap a 46,000 mile Rav4 for a 200,000 mile work truck that’s two years older.
I sympathize with owning something you don’t like and it being hard to sell, but I think you sold low.
And I like trucks!
I have to +1 this – the RAV4’s new owner got to hit the reset button for $3000 because the author just wasn’t feeling the automotive appliance? When it comes to family hauling I’d much rather be bored than stranded somewhere.
+2 I don’t like the value on the exchange and I consider a vehicle a tool so putting a Ravioli badge on it seems too emotional to me. I remember emotional buyers when I was a car salesman, they were very profitable.
Rule is never buy rebuilt unless you plan to drive it until the wheels fall off.
Subject matter expert in vehicle valuations certainly provided an interesting personal experience in vehicle ownership. Reminds me of cars mechanics own.
Hey, the magic beans worked out for Jack so maybe the 200k mile truck will in this case too.
Yeah. I hope I’m wrong, but I suspect ADA will soon be pining for the good old days with the boring Toyota appliance.
My credit union does loans on rebuilt title autos. Not a problem if you have excellent credit.
I’ve sold a rebuilt title vehicle, referring them to my credit union for the financing. Again, not a problem.
You do have to have excellent credit, because for them, it’s one part auto financing, one part unsecured personal loan.
If you’d done a little research for your prospective buyers and pointed them toward compatible financing, you probably would’ve had no problem at all selling your RAV4.
As someone whos owned and sold cars with salvage titles, it is sooooo much easier to sell sports cars with salvage titles. Always someone out there looking for a cheap hoon or a track car they wont miss if the unexpected happens; a lot of cheap posers too.
But a five figure boring SUV will be hard. Especially one as common as a RAV4. Now a salvage title LM004 or a salvage title FF91 will go quick especially if priced to sell.
This is what I was looking for. I keep shopping around for Miatas and occasionally I’ll see one with a salvage or rebuilt title.
I’ve always been curious about this. Here in Texas there’s a number of dealerships that have loads of banded title cars, they always look great, always have low mileage and always have a great price. Sounds like it’s a good thing I never really pulled the trigger on one of them
I’ve been wondering this too. Trying to help a friend find a car in the sub-$4k range, and I’m seeing the same thing.
Leftover “Harvey Cars”?
You rang?
Funny you should mention this. Back in 2014 when I worked at an Audi dealer we had a batch A4 sedans the dealer had bought at auction that me and a couple of coworkers had to detail. The dealer was going to sell as CPO vehicles. Two of the A4s I inspected had dirt and grit hiding underneath the carpeting-the classic sign of water immersion. It turned that those two cars were totaled previously in New Jersey because Hurricane Sandy turned them into U-boats! The cars were supposed to have been destroyed (government order) but somehow some unscrupulous character(s) decided to fix them up and sell them at auction!
Needless to say those two cars weren’t sold by the dealership,I don’t what happened to them after that!
What, like a Volkswagen Rabbit?
I was referring to cars flooded by Hurricane Harvey, or some other flood event.
I know, I was being silly. 😉
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_(play)
I’m curious, what was it like getting insurance for the mousey rav4? I’ve never had a salvage but heard that’s a pain in the ass
May depend on the state, in my state all you could get is liability and uninsured on a title like that.
I’ve had a couple, zero issues with insurance. Obviously, if you wreck it again you are going to get less for it. But as with all things in these somewhat but not entirely “United States” YMMV wildly depending on where you live.
The only issue I had directly related to the branded title was that one of them was a V6t Saab 9-5 wagon. Normally, Saab would replace the timing belt for free at 60K on those cars. But because the car had a branded title the considered the warranty void and refused to do it. Which turned out to be a good thing, as Saab would ONLY cover the belt, you had to pay for the idler pulleys and whatnot yourself if you wanted those changed too (and they were known to not make it to the next belt service). It was cheaper to have my indie shop do the whole thing than to pay the wankers at the dealership to do it with the “free” belt and “free belt labor”.
Never in my life have I heard of replacing a timing belt without idlers & tensioners (and water pump, if applicable), or timing chain without guides.
Especially from a dealer, not Bubba who works for cash in the back alley.
That was the deal. Free belt, and that was all. GM paying at warranty rates, of course, so any excuse to not do it. It was kind of a miracle that they would do it for free to start with, the cars only had a 4yr/48K warranty to start with, but after a few “premature” belt failures they instituted this extended warranty free belt change. Though IIRC, the official change interval was 60K/5yrs whichever came first. Officially, of course, there was NO service interval on the idlers. The water pump is not driven by the timing belt on that engine.
The trick with that engine, should you find yourself with one of the 3-4 still on the road at this point, is to use Saturn V6 parts. Same parts, about 1/3rd the price that the Saab $tealer wanted for them.
I just swapped out the belt and kit on my $500 Vue, 160,000 miles on original parts. Belt looked hardened and cracked and it’s an interference design so it’s done if you break one.
Lucky! It’s one of those things where you never know. You could get lucky and it’s like yours and it goes forever, or it could break at 60001 miles. I change them early, I have never been much of a gambler. Currently none of my cars have one though.
I’ve owned rebuilt title vehicles in multiple states and never had an issue getting insurance. I’ve only ever had liability on said rebuilt vehicles, so I have no idea how hard it may be for comprehensive coverage, but liability was never a challenge to get.
I had no trouble getting comp cover. It’s a GREAT deal for the insurance company – they don’t charge you any less, but if you wreck a salvage title car they are going to give you jack shit for it (of course, in theory you paid a lot less for it, so fair). My two were a Saab 9-5 and a BMW 318is, so they were worth enough to make it smart to have it, and initially I had a loan on the Saab anyway so no option to not have it.
The BMW was an especially great deal in that it was a theft recovery, the thieves stole all the “is” parts. So it had new seats, new wheels and tires, and new front and rear spoilers. The Saab was a car that a bodyshop fixed as a make-work project between customer cars when things were a little slow. Full documentation, and they did a nice job of it. Hit in the “B” pillar. Was only 4yrs old with 40K when I bought it for $10K. Going rate for one like that was $20K++.