If you’ve been tempted by a depreciated Mercedes-Benz made in the past 14 years or so, you’ve probably wondered what could go wrong on them. As it turns out, many of them have a weird problem that owners are working around with cheap aftermarket parts. Owners are using sacrificial wiring harnesses to save their ECUs, and these extensions aren’t measures to guard against electrical gremlins, Believe it or not, they’re actually a bit of insurance against a truly bizarre engine problem. Let me explain.
The late 2000s marked the onset of downsized, turbocharged engines. While automakers weren’t necessarily reducing cylinder count across the board yet, a number of automakers shrank displacement and added turbochargers, and this strategy really took off in Europe.
Starting for the 2012 model year, Mercedes-Benz replaced its 5.5-liter naturally aspirated M273 V8 with the 4.7-liter twin-turbocharged M278 V8. Not only did this result in a substantial torque increase, it also slightly boosted EPA fuel economy, with the 2012 S 550 gaining one MPG combined and two MPG on the highway. While that all sounds great, the M278 did have a little issue with its new style of camshaft position sensors, one that could cause some serious damage if left unchecked.
See, these camshaft position sensors and cam magnets press into holes in the engine to monitor camshaft position, which means one end of each sensor gets intimate with the oily bits of the engine while the other is plugged into a main wiring harness that goes all the way back to the engine control unit. Unfortunately, the camshaft position sensors introduced on the M278 don’t always provide a good internal seal to keep the engine oil in the engine.
Over time, oil can push through a bad camshaft position sensor or magnet and find its way to the wiring harness pigtail that plugs into the cam sensor. From there, it can wick all the way down the main wiring harness to the ECU, causing some serious damage along the way. As you might expect, electrical components usually aren’t fond of engine oil, and some Mercedes-Benz owners have found out the hard way.
A cursory glance at the Benzworld forum reveals that this problem isn’t exactly rare. One owner of a 2013 S 550 reports that oil did indeed wick its way right down to the ECU, requiring replacement of the main engine harness, the ECU, and a litany of other parts. As the poster wrote, “Further inspection yielded replacing one high pressure fuel pump, three fuel injectors, and one O2 sensor at low, low, dealership prices.” The total cost of repairs is claimed to have run $7,000, and that’s actually surprisingly reasonable considering what others have been quoted.
This forum poster claims to have ended up with an $11,000 repair bill for the exact same issue, oil in the engine wiring harness. While it sounds like oil didn’t reach the ECU, it still seems to have taken out the ignition coils, fuel injectors, oxygen sensors, knock sensors, and the oil level sensor. That’s a lot of damage, and I couldn’t blame this person for looking at trading up to a Lexus LS after experiencing this sort of carnage on a 63,000-mile car.
It’s wild that this is even an issue, but the good news is that insurance against it is seriously cheap. This set of cam sensor harness extensions on Amazon will run the owner of an M278-powered Mercedes-Benz all of $25 and can be installed in minutes. Sure, you’ll need two sets to cover all the sensors and magnets, and they might get oil in them if some cam sensors fail to seal, but if caught early enough, it’s better to replace some cam sensors, magnets, and $50 worth of wiring harness extensions than a main engine harness and possibly everything in its path.
Mercedes and oil entering the engine harness…still happening on the newest models
byu/onepunchmeme inJustrolledintotheshop
Actually, this warning goes out to other Mercedes-Benz owners too. These exact same camshaft position sensors and magnets are also used in the later four-liter biturbo V8, the M270, M274, M254 and M133 turbocharged four-bangers in models like the GLC 300 and CLA 45 AMG, the M276 V6 in naturally aspirated applications like the 2012 C 350 and turbocharged models like the outgoing C 43 AMG, the M256 inline-six in the E 53 AMG and current-generation GLE 450, and even the 2012 to 2016 SLK 55 AMG. As this Reddit post demonstrates, leaky cam sensors are still causing carnage.
So, if you find yourself adding a non-V12 Mercedes-Benz made in the past 14 years or so to your stable, get a set of camshaft position sensor harness extenders ASAP. While not infallible, they’re a cheap safeguard against a seriously expensive potential problem.
Top graphic credit: Mercedes-Benz
Support our mission of championing car culture by becoming an Official Autopian Member.
-
Here’s How A Bad Water Pump Design Can Total An Older Ford Explorer, Taurus Or Flex
-
Why So Many People Hate Chrome-Capped Lug Nuts
-
Here’s How Neglecting A $36 Gasket Can Destroy A $22,000 BMW Engine
-
Here’s Why You Might Not Want To Buy A Third-Generation Toyota Prius
-
The Popular BMW B58 Inline-Six Engine Has One Big Achilles Heel
Please send tips about cool car things to tips@theautopian.com. You could even win a prize!
MB is the GM of Europe.
I’m not sure that GM is THIS bad. Mind you, I’m no fan of GM, but this stuff is crazy. “Wear and tear”, my luxuriously-furred arse.
How exactly does having sensor extensions prevent oil from wicking up from the sensor?
It seems a better sealant or gasket would be more effective, to also be added to the preventative maintenance schedule.
I imagine, the wicking would stop at the connector instead of continuing down the wire.
That’s my point. It relies on an assumption that it won’t travel past the extension. Why not just address the problem at the source?
I’m guessing the effort and labor required to change out the seals would be high.
My daughter’s Camry had a compressor crap the bed. $3k repair bill. OR… $2 magnet. There’s a sensor that has a magnet that loses its charge over time. Stick a good magnet on it and the AC kicks on. For some reason, about an hour later, the AC stops working again, but if you “IT crowd” the car (turn it off and turn it back on again),the AC will work for another hour without any problems.
I could just replace the sensor, but I would have to discharge and recharge the R134a and it looks like I would have to pull the radiator to do that and while the radiator is out, I might as well replace it and its hoses and ….
$2 fix it is.
I’m so tired of the blanket statement of never buy an out of warranty German car, or ” nothing more expensive than a cheap BMW”. Yes, some things may be expensive but overall, in my many years of owning BMWs, I’ve never had one that was extensively more expensive to maintain then a domestic or Japanese import. Maybe it’s just that all of mine have been so old ( couple of E36s, couple of E46s, couple of E89s, an E21) that the main failure points have been identified and addressed in the aftermarket. Heck, even the rod bearings on our E46 M3 only cost $600 in parts.
Rod bearings? Yeah, what a great car, just needs a couple of rod bearings, but otherwise super reliable. Said no toyota owner ever. 🙂
When Toyota gets 333hp out of a NA, 25 year old 6cyl and doesn’t need some maintenance, then they can talk. But to be fair, I agree Toyotas are incredibly reliable.
To be fair, more than 30 years ago, Toyota did build one that made over 220hp in NA and 320 with forced induction, which is known for being very tough.
Also, it isn’t about “some” or “none” regarding maintenance. It is the amount and the expense when needed.
The S54, that’s the engine we’re talking about in an e46 m3, is going to fail because when you run high compression, high rpm to generate power, you are going to have reduced longevity. Fact of life. Vanos and rod bearing failures just happen to be the S54 weaknesses. I love the BMW straight six engines, having owned a series of e30 and e28 cars from the 80’s. I also grew up drag racing, building engines that needed rebuilds every week. So, BMW traded longevity for bragging rights. Instead of building engines that would routinely go 300k miles, they started building engines with more power that might get you to 100k miles. Not a big deal, just means that unless you have the mechanical skills or the money to pay a mechanic, it’s not worth owning an old performance driver BMW. Which was the point initially.
For what it’s worth, I know quite a few people with S54s that are running great with near and past 200k. Rod bearings and preemptive maintenance required, of course. Hell, I had an E39 M5 with the S62, supercharged with methanol injection with over 230k miles. Sold it in 2020, and it’s still kicking last I heard.
Anything is possible, but I’m calling bs on your supercharged, methanol injected e39. Whatever, you do you.
Since it’s slow at work, here’s a lil photo album with proof of my old M5. I guess it may not still be on the road, but as of 2022 (time flies) it was.
You can see the RK Vortech supercharger, the billet plenum gaskets, and the Aquamist methanol injection along with the odometer. It was tuned by Evolve and made right under 500whp.
I bought it from the 2nd or 3rd owner who had it the majority of the time and no, the rod bearings were not replaced under his ownership or mine. I took it on a few small road trips and it never gave me a single issue.
https://imgur.com/a/h6OoDz1
Meh, still bs. I’m a trumpy, any information that doesn’t agree with my world view is fake.
The opinion of BMWs is based on a lot of data on the overall ten-year cost of ownership research. It isn’t just pulled out of thin air. I had an E30 325 convertible and an E36 M3 and loved both. They were both fairly reliable if a bit more expensive to fix when something went wrong. The newer models are different beasts altogether.
Here’s the thing, 10 years is not old for a car. I will agree that newer German cars are more expensive to maintain but once you pass that 20yr or so mark, I would say they are no more costly to maintain than any other vehicle. No part on my E46 or E36 has been more expensive than any of the 6 domestic vehicles I own. Heck the heater core on my F150 cost $2200 to replace. People want to group the 10yr old cars in with the 20yr olds in their arguments but they aren’t really in the same maintenance boat. Now, If you don’t know the box end from the open end on a wrench, then you shouldn’t own an older car, no matter the make. They will all require large amounts of maintenance that will put you in the poor house.
They stopped making the E46 20 years ago. It doesn’t represent German cars of the last 10 years much less the current stuff. Average 10-year costs for Toyota are about $5500, Lexus $6500, Ford (one of the worst non-premium brands, only Ram and Jeep are worse) is $10,000. Meanwhile, MB is $14,000, BMW $15,000. The BMW X3 specifically is over $18k. They aren’t even in the same ballpark. Plus, the extra expense gets worse as they age, not better.
Modern MB and BMW products are not designed for anything past the warranty. Their running costs quickly make it a better deal to go lease a new one. The old trope is true. The only thing more expensive than a new BMW is a used BMW.
This type of issue is a big reason why so many people lease German cars.
Gotta love capillary action. Yes, this was a preventative maintenance issue I did when I had my 2015 S 550 Coupe, which also had the M278.
My BMW 740 had a problem where coolant would wick down the wiring harness from the electronic thermostat to the ECU causing similar problems.
I was in the market for one of these (late model E-Class) a while back. Learned about this and a few other fun things with the M278s. Went with a 2011. Last of the muscle car formula; big displacement, NA, port injected, hydraulic power steering, and other old school details in a package that I personally think looks a lot better than the face lifted models with the muscular haunches. Not a whole lot to go wrong on the M273.
Those harnesses arent the only thing going on with that camshaft area. The vvt part of the cam has seals that break down and will walk the motor out of time.
For a V8 like that S class thats 2000-4000 dollars in parts and 17 hours of labor.
A friend of mine had one he rolled the dice on with 88k on the clock
He now drives a volvo
Such BS from the dealer. If the ECU was truly a sealed unit, then oil would not have gotten in.
When it comes to electronics, much of the time you can send it in to an electronics repair place and have it repaired for a fraction of the cost. In a worst case, they can put all the chips and other bits of the original on a new PCB.
Also when I look at the picture of that ECU, where I see oil is just on the base of the connector. All the pins still look good and I question whether the ECU went bad because of oil or for some other reason like a blown capacitor.
Oil in general won’t kill electronics the way something like salt water would. Same deal for oil “getting into the wiring harness”
Hell… I’ve seen custom computer builds that have all the components bathed in oil for the purpose of silent cooling. Have a look here:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/strip-fans,1203.html
I think it’s more likely Mercedes’ recent history of using biodegradable wiring and other cheap-assed electrical bits that are the root cause of the issue. And that cheap wiring degrades faster in the hotter engine bays of turbocharged engines compared to non-turbo ones.
I suspect the presence of oil is just a red herring.
I worked at International in the mid 2010s, and we had an issue with Under valvecover harnesses wicking from failed rail pressure sensors.
A wicked harness causes absolute havoc and absolutely can take out an ECU.
Heavy truck guy here too, I think everybody except maybe Caterpillar had trouble with that at some point. I can remember Detroit having trouble with it for 4-5 years, Cummins too. Hell, Volvo engines all did it from about MY’98 until probably 2010 or 2011, the problem making it though several engine revisions.
Yeah, I feel like no one was prepared to deal with increased injection pressures once emissions changed.
But for the Maxxforce 7, that was just one more issue to toss on the pile.
I feel slightly better about fixing my Fiat 500 trunk release by soldering a resistor into a Dodge Caravan part. They are externally identical but send a different signal to the BCM. Shrug emoji
So, the moral here is to buy the V12, right?
RIGHT?!
I can’t hear you as my ears were sold to pay for the $2000 coils, or the fact a falling leaf can kill them.
Wait, what?
The electronics are on the floor, and the interior loves to flood if a drain gets plugged, something that can happen if a leaf falls in the outside airvent wrong . So no parking a S series outside.
I actually think the V12 *is* a little bit more of a sure thing than that particular V8.
Ditto the D4 A8 with the 6.3-liter W12, versus the 4.0-liter twin-turbo V8. Shhhh. Don’t tell anyone.
Thanks for the PSA! At least there’s a cheap fix available. Better than the soy-based wiring harnesses prematurely degrading or attracting wire-gnawing rodents like they did back in the 90’s where the whole thing needed to be replaced.
I learned decades ago the very hard way that if you can’t afford a new Whizmobile 756SS, stay away from the used ones because in the long run, the new one will be far cheaper to own than the used one regardless of the initial entry price.
I have to keep track of the number of articles that highlight a hilarious potential failure mode that absolutely ruins a vehicle through catastrophic failure by country/manufacturer of origin.
Germany has to be number one.
The Koreans/Nissan probably are number two.
The myth of superior German engineering is proven again.
It isn’t the engineering quality as much as the results of a market segment that genuinely doesn’t care what happens past the warranty. The engineering is fine for the task at hand: making colossal power, putting in lots of gadgets, and getting it past 4y/50k without too many issues.
Built to be leased, because its core customers don’t keep them past 3 years, that’s for peasants.
It could be said that their engineering is amazing in that “The perfect race car crosses the finish line first and then crumbles into its individual parts.” kind of way.
My rule for buying an older car is only buy it if it is for fun, or if it is used as a taxicab in some part of the world.
Sadly MBUSA doesn’t think taxi spec cars are good enough for us.
Is anyone doing modular wiring harnesses? Would be nice to just do a simple replacement of small sections as needed.
I mean, with a soldering iron and some heat shrink, they’re all modular.
Troublesome sections have been done by niche stores.
Ron Francis makes some that are clearly superior to original.
I doubt that covers Mercedes, but if demand is there?
I’m upgrading the high amperage section in my truck and adding an additional battery, along with some protection typically left out by OEM.
There are some kits offered for this, and the parts are available to build your own.
Disgraceful that Mercedes hasn’t addressed this.
There are solutions.
Thank you. Without articles like this it’s a lot harder to resist the call of things like the magnificent E class wagon when we come across a seemingly good deal. You’re doing the world a service.
When I first heard of this issue years ago I thought what a strange issue. But I’ve heard of other brands suffering from this oil wicking situation in the mean time. The extensions seem like cheap insurance I guess you have to check your harness for oil when you check your oil.
I plan to do the financially responsible thing and only add V12-powered Mercedes from here on out. I’ll report back with how much money I’m saving on maintenance.
Make sure to get a least one non V12 model as a control for the maintenance savings comparison…
Yesterday it was your cooling fan is leaking and today it’s your wiring harness is leaking. Oh my.
Better than taking Stellantis and have your anus start leaking.
And they are worried about ads in bad taste.
Don’t worry, it’s just oil….
Timely article since I was just posting about my flirtation with buying a 2018 E400 Benz. It’s a lot like a “scared straight” after school special about the dangers of German luxury cars.
Friends don’t let friends buy out of warranty German cars.
Also note VW warranties aren’t transferable to the second owner, so any used VW is an out of warranty German car.
The other rule of thumb is if you can’t afford a new German car, you can’t afford a used German car.
There’s a reason the modern ones depreciate so fast.
VW warranties are fully transferable in the US.
Hyundai / Kia vehicles’ powertrain warranty drops to 50k miles for the second owners.
Good to know.
Regarding the VW warranties, I was recently told they weren’t. Thanks for the correction.
I know someone that bought an imported big Benz and had a crucial ignition part fail.
Dealers considered it grey market and would not help.
After hitting walls, turns out a Dodge part was an exact match, and this was long before stellantis.
Parts swapping between makes is still a thing.
In fact, the more rare a part is, the more likely another brand might cross over.
I once ordered a Ford Pinto bearing for an Italian car.
Exact match.
Every time I look at an old S-Class and drool onto my phone, I’m gonna reread this article again and it will slap me back into lucidity.
Maybe just look at even older ones, say, W126?
I like those too, but I’m pretty scared of the vacuum line issues on those generations. Don’t they use vacuum for everything?
I think if you block off the lines to the trunk and doors you should be good. Central locking is a pain anyway.
When I was in high school / college I had a 240D whose vacuum system was slowly going kaput – got to a point if you unlocked the trunk in the wrong way or used the air conditioning in the wrong – conditions – the engine wouldn’t turn off (and I think a couple of doors would just lock and unlock themselves for fun). Ever try to use the fuel-starving “stop” button on the top of a 240D engine to shut down a 240D engine? My hands are still shaking 30 years later.
I’ll bet it felt like mowing lawns all day with a gas engine.
My family has an R107 560SL. The vacuum system is difficult, particularly the HVAC. The fuel injection being a 50:50 mechanical and electrical system is also a steep learning curve for me right now. Bosch KE Jetronic, which uses fuel pressure and a fuel distributor to vary the fuel getting to each cylinder, fully mechanically but also has an O2 sensor and ECU to help fine tune the mixture for better efficiency and performance. They are quite complex but understandable due to some good YouTube experts on the systems.
The best fix is do the inspection services correctly (maintaining a car is not just changing the engine oil occasionally), identify that there is a leak, and fix the damned leak. You have to let it go for a pretty long time for it to become a major issue. FWIW, my car was more than 10 years old before one of mine started leaking. All four cam adjusters were replaced at that point. Not a particularly expensive or difficult repair. And a big reason I would never buy a car that was “maintained” at JiffyLube.
I guess the extensions are insurance, but I would not bet on oil not wicking right through them too, and it’s another connector to corrode or otherwise fail over time.
But oil leaks on my British cars are my rust protection.
Same here! And it makes it easy to tell when the car is out of oil.
There are options like optical isolators and physical measures.
Which were not incorporated in the effected cars, so a rather moot point. Ze Germans expect proper maintenance to be carried out, which includes inspecting and replacing components as needed.
Who would assume you need to design for oil in an engine bay?
“ but I would not bet on oil not wicking right through them too, and it’s another connector to corrode or otherwise fail over time.”
Here’s the thing… I would expect oil to help PREVENT corrosion, not cause it.
I suspect the ‘oil in the harness’ issue is just a red herring. I suspect the real issue is the cheap quality OEM wiring and cheap quality of other electrical bits. Consider that people have built computers bathed in oil for silent cooling for years.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/strip-fans,1203.html
It is what it is. The damage is caused by oil getting where oil isn’t supposed to get. The real fix is fixing the damned oil leaks.
Cars like these aren’t designed to last more than ten years if you’re lucky. The makers truly don’t care. The issue is and will continue to get worse as they stop making replacement parts as well.
All cars are designed to last as long as you are willing to pay to maintain them correctly. <shrug>
Ha! Tell that to materials that degrade over time and systems designed as “maintenance-free.” There are many ways in which a perfectly maintained modern car can fail where the repair costs are greater than the value of the car.
The “value” of a car is more than what someone will pay you for it, in many cases.
And that is literally all cars. ALL materials degrade over time. There is no such thing as “maintenance free”. Sometimes maintenance means replacing. More expensive cars simply have more, and more expensive potential dilemmas due to added complexity. If the things that make a Mercedes worth owning don’t matter to you, buy something else. I find the juice well worth the squeeze. <shrug>
I saw the headline and my first thought was they were putting out cheese or something to distract the mice before they eat the wiring – which now often includes lots of soy in the insulation.
LOL – no doubt. A friend with a KIA Sorento has had horrific problems with mice eating the wiring. Many thousands of dollars over the past 5-6 years. Still cheaper to fix it than to buy another car though.
Another friend with a late Saab 9-5 had critters eat his fuel lines twice. I imagine that is tasty until it suddenly isn’t… Solved by running them inside electrical conduit the second time. Expensive proposition on that car too, but covered by comprehensive insurance.
I would think someone should be able to expect that an expensive “luxury” car should be able to at least resist degrading for as long as some bottom end POS, if not longer. It’s one thing if it’s advanced features or tech that causes the problem (like the maintenance nightmare 600), but so many of these are baby steps engineering problems that low end marques selling low end cars at minimal profits with as much cost cutting as possible to not have parts fall off during a test drive seem to avoid. MB built a reputation on solidity and being built to last, but (for a while) now they’re just overpriced junk. Someone could pull an old LS out of a dead truck in a junk yard and get more reliability with less weight for the same power (or more) in a more compact package. There is so little value for the dollar with these, even if the doors shut nicely (something they did even when they made good cars and I wonder if the new ones are even as solid as a 300SL roadster). They are solid, so I suppose they’d make good getaway cars, but not if it’s beyond a few years old.
More sophistication equals more places for issues. Always has, always will.
Having owned Mercedes from the “good old days”, they really weren’t that good, and were actually a LOT more expensive adjusted for inflation. And the old ones rusted FAR worse than modern ones. They did have the period around the turn of the century when they were figuring out “green” materials that were kind of terrible, but I skipped that era.
Whether is value for dollar is up to the buyer. I certainly think there is, which is why I have owned a number of them, and daily drive a ’14 E350 wagon. If you don’t, don’t buy one. <shrug>
Every car rusted more in the past. Lack of rust proofing was the state of the industry just as better rust protection and flashy electronics that date quickly and are designed to fail expensively and prematurely (especially if German) are the modern standard. More sophisticated isn’t an excuse to poorly engineer parts and tell the customer, “Hey, what do you want? We gave you the same special clothes we gave the emperor.” These kinds of failures aren’t inherent to the spec, they’re a result of poor engineering and cam position sensors aren’t even high tech, they’re dead simple, used industry wide, and decades old with typically very long life spans. But it’s not even the sensor that’s the problem, it’s a simple sealing issue. Something so simple shouldn’t cause such extensive, expensive damage and, surely then, it should at least be a simple procedure to replace. If this was an odd example, OK, but German cars in particular are heavily infested with such kinds of simple failures that require expensive remedies. What people put up with from Superior German Engineering(TM) during what would count for barely above break-in miles in cheaper cars astounds me, but I can simply defer to the market value of an out-of-warranty German product for value-for-dollar assessment.
10 years plus is a more than acceptable lifespan. The cam actuators are neither expensive nor difficult to replace. When they leak, replace them. Ignore them, pay the price. <shrug>
Or buy a Camry. But then you will be driving a Camry.
My comment was on the designed lifespan of the car. Not what is possible for people to achieve if they are willing to spend more on maintenance money than the car is worth. My point remains true. The cars aren’t designed to last. Especially premium brands, which are designed and engineered for an audience that keeps them for the length of the warranty and no longer.
Those are the profitable customers. The entire point is to make a less expensive product to lease than to own out of warranty. They have achieved that. It has zero to do with thinking a MB is worth extra money to drive. That is clear by the sticker prices. It is about the lifespan of them once they leave the lot.
I think you are right but still the brand has to take a beating when all the used car buyers crap on it and the resale value goes to shit. People didn’t get rich by being dumb. Unless they inherit.
The number one factor in a person’s wealth is the wealth of their parents, so…
But, I don’t disagree that many wealthy people are careful with their money. But that is kinda the point here. They don’t buy used cars if it doesn’t make financial sense to do so. They also don’t care what the people who need to buy used cars think. They also are less willing to waste time with dealers getting things fixed or doing their own maintenance. Their time is worth a lot.
If the car makers cared about the used market or those customers, they would care about depreciation. They don’t. The car makers don’t benefit from their cars being driven by “lower” classes because a big part of spending more for those brands is exclusivity. That is why they can charge a lot more for a “Competition Package” when most owners will never get near using the capacity of the regular model with the CP.
Car makers pick their customers more than customers select the car brand. The carmaker has all the data and research. Most buyers want something and then justify that desire.
Depreciation will stop many people cold from replacing a car, especially buying another of that brand.
To a degree, but generally, those are not the people the premium brands care about. The cost of attracting those customers reduces profit margins to the point that the sales aren’t worth it.
That will affect the number of male buyers.
Women, on the other hand, tend to think that if it’s expensive and a prestigious brand name, it must be valuable and good quality.
I can assure you it matters very little to Mercedes buyers. As one who can choose to buy new or used, used is a nice bonus. And you can do a HELL of a lot of fixing for the price difference between a new one and a 10yo one. Not that my car has needed much for a car that is now 12 years old (’14 but in-service date of mid-’13). If it needs $5K spent on it tomorrow it won’t bother me particularly.
Dealer techs tell me even reputable brands are designing for maximum profit in the initial 50,000 miles.
Literally racketeering
GM once officially defended themselves claiming no one keeps a car longer than 50,000 miles.
And yet they do last just fine if maintained properly. If you aren’t willing to do that, buy something else. <shrug>
Reality is that if Mercedes had kept doing what they did in the past they would have priced themselves completely out of the market. I owned an ’88 300TE – generally considered one of the pinnacles of MB engineering. Adjusted for inflation, that car would cost more than $100K today. for a car with less “luxury” than my mother’s KIA Soul, that rusted rather worse than my E350, half the power, and needed a HELL of a lot more maintenance and repairs at similar age and miles. And it wasn’t cheap to repair back then either. Something had to give. But they are still better cars in most ways than they were back then. Luxury cars are expensive to buy and to own, full stop, do not pass go, do not collect $200. In return they give you back certain tangible and intangible qualities. My car is a much nicer place to be than a Camry, even if it costs far more to buy and to run. Anyone who can afford a Mercedes wagon in the first place can afford to fix one forever. If you buy a cheap used one when all you can really afford is a new Corolla, well, that’s on you.
Luxury items cost more, what a shock. The issue isn’t that. The issue is how quickly the cost of keeping one on the road is worse economically than getting a new one because they are engineered for a relatively short lifespan.
That is the reality. You can delude yourself into thinking they are special by claiming that every failure is just “maintenance,” but that is just willfully naive. The oil wicking wasn’t a “maintenance” issue, even by the wildest use of the term. That is like saying that Nissan’s terrible CVTs were “maintenance” issues. It simply isn’t honest or credible.
Just pure fact-free delusional nonsense. A new MB wagon is $78k, not exactly outrageously expensive given the average new car price is $48k. Hell, the average new full-size pickup is over $60k. MB aren’t that special. Plus, for anyone that truly has the kind of money that allows them to drive whatever they want at any price the time involved dealing a failing car is worth more than the repair bill. They won’t bother. They will just get a new one with all the upgrades in performance you mentioned and ditch it when it becomes an issue, if not before. AFter all, you aren’t still driving your old MBs.
So, in the end, you are just bolstering my original point. Anyone who can afford an MB should buy one new or expect a lot of expensive “maintenance” because they aren’t designed for long-term trouble-free ownership. <shrug>
A completely nonsense argument. My E350 4matic wagon retailed for ~$74K new. Call it $80K on the road with taxes and fees paid as a nice round number. To buy it new and pay it off in a reasonable period of time (which I define as the warranty span) would be $1333/mo. One Thousand, Three Hundred, Thirty-three dollars each and every month for FIVE YEARS. In the past three years I have spent about $5K on maintenance and repairs on it. That includes scheduled maintenance and a set of tires too. That is basically one new car payment a year. And most of it was when the *Japanese* A/C compressor shared with a zillion Toyotas packed up. And that could have been a lot less if I had bothered to DIY it, which I could have, I just didn’t feel like it. It’s going to be a LOOOOONG time before a new one is cheaper than just keeping this one. And I don’t happen to like the new ones, since they ruined the wagon with the Outback treatment. Absent that, I may well have bought a new one and kept it for a good long time. The long tail is the best time to own a car. No montly payment, just maintenance and the occasional repair. And assuming that the maintenance is done *correctly*, repairs will be occasional if you aren’t pounding a million miles a year on the thing. Which I don’t. Though for me, I have put a fair number of miles on it, because it’s done my FL-ME annual migration twice. ~25K in three years.
For an alternative even better example – my BMW wagon that I bought new in 2011. It’s going to be 14 this summer. My only “repair” has been a new 12V battery, when it was nine years old. Two sets of tires plus annual servicing rounds to basically free compared to the ~$44K it cost to buy the thing. I’ve spent far more on annual excise tax and insurance than I have on maintenance and repairs, I shudder to even think what the excise tax on a new one every three years would total up to – that alone would pay to run this car for another decade. If something failed and cost me $5K tomorrow I would not give the first shit. My 2011 BMW convertible that I bought used four years ago has needed less than $500 in repairs in four years. Another car that owes me nothing.
As I said, the dilemma comes when people who CAN’T afford to buy them new buy them WELL used. If you only have new Corolla money, don’t buy a used luxury car for the price of a new Corolla. That doesn’t mean that the used luxury car isn’t excellent value, just that expensive cars are expensive to fix, and they have more things that WILL need fixing at some point. Heck, these days an out-of-warranty Corolla is expensive to fix too if you have to pay someone to fix it for you, but what isn’t there won’t break. You will never need to replace the rear air struts on a Corolla…
To recap. They are both very expensive to maintain and very inexpensive to maintain. The newer models are far superior to the older ones, but you want to keep your older versions. That sure is a lot of cognitive dissonance.
If you could reconcile all that, maybe you will figure out my original point rather than tie yourself up in a fan-boy knot. Your anecdotes are just that and don’t reflect anything beyond the end of your nose. Most cars get driven around 15k miles a year, not 25k over three. The primary reason people buy luxury brands is to have more performance, gadgets, and “status” than people in Accords and Camrys. Around 70% of BMW and MB drivers lease their vehicles, while the industry average is 20-25%. (BTW, your paymented wouldn’t be $1300/mo if you have decent credit and you are trading in an equivalent 4 year old version of the same wagon, maybe $1000)
By the 10-year mark, a BMW or MB doesn’t have any meaningful improvements over a new Camry or Accord for performance, luxury, or status. Which you yourself noted earlier. So, the reason to buy a new one has gone away completely unless you have an irrational attachment to a brand. The fact that they have 2-4 times the average maintenance costs, plus higher insurance, is just a fact. The biggest risk is just that, the risk. As you noted, there are a lot of very expensive potential failures on old luxury models and most people would rather have a predictable monthly outlay than dip into liquid resources for a $5-$15,000 repair on their daily driver that then needs to be in the shop for a month.
MB and BMW make cars for consumers who own them for the life of the warranty at most and then get rid of them. The warranty is a bit longer than the lease period because that allows them to be sold with a small bit of safety to the next owners. Those are the only customers that matter, and their engineering reflects that.
The people who can afford to keep $15k or more in reserve “in case” something on their old MB daily driver fails and they need a rental for a month are also the same people who can afford a new MB. They are also the people who want an MB because it has the gadgets, performance, and superior status they want, which has completely dissipated after 5 years.
Your little niche anecdotal bubble doesn’t reflect reality in the outside world.
Blah, blah, blah, blah. Buy something else if you can’t deal with owning a German car. My reality is the only reality of any importance to me, unsurprisingly.And the reality of 40 years of car ownership of 98% European cars is that they are more than reliable enough.
At the end of the day, all cars suck in their own ways.
Pick which ways are least important to you and buy accordingly. I will take a car that is delightful most of the time and sucks occasionally, to one that is cheap to run but sucks to drive/be in daily. You do you.
As has been true throughout the thread, you have taken this whole thing very personally rather than looking at the engineering, design, and marketing realities. I have dealt with German cars; multiple BMWs, including an M3 and, most recently, a 2017 GTI and 2018 Golf-R. The ones I have had are lovely to drive, but when driven regularly with any enthusiasm, they consistently have small-ish problems punctuated by large ones. Even if meticulously maintained. That’s fine; they get traded for something less annoying as the warranty runs out. After all, I can afford it. Now, I daily a Miata looking at a swap for a ’22 Civic Type-R. Both are better to drive than any MB or BMW from the last 10 years.
Over the last 10 years or so, BMWs and MBs have become exponentially more complex and risky to own (and parts have more often been discontinued) while becoming less engaging to drive. Both have gone the full tacky design route to status/brand-focused buyers, who are far more profitable than car enthusiasts.
As was the point of my original comment to which you took such offense, their current engineering is focused on short ownership periods, which, as shown, make up the vast majority of their market. Like I said early on, if you want to fight that battle, fine. But it doesn’t change the fact that what I said is correct.
I get it; owning European cars is a vital cornerstone of your personality, and it hurts to think of them as being designed as disposable. Here is a suggestion: stop basing your sense of self on corporate/brand marketing.
Blah, blah, blah. My Germans will still be around in 20 years, just like my two Brits are at 51 and 35 years old. Bet on it. Nothing disposable about them any more than a Corolla is “disposable”. All cars are if you don’t take care of them.
I have been driving German, Swedish, British, and Italian cars for 40 years, plus a couple of American and Japanese cars. There is nowhere near as much difference as you think there is, and if anything, I have had much better results from the Germans. Voice of LOTS of experience here.
Bottom line is I drive what I like driving.
Nobody ever said you can’t like what you like. Thinking otherwise is just due to you using what you drive as a prosthetic personality.
Of course all cars are disposable or can be kept on the road with enough money. Again, that was never a question or the point. That it is just you attempting to mask the variations within those parameters.
My original point stands correct despite your fan-boy tantrum.
You point is pointless and largely nonsense.
Driving German cars isn’t even a big part of my personality – if I were King of the World I’d be driving *French* cars (owned a number of them back in the day). I’ve had more Swedish cars than German, by rather a lot.
Ultimately, with the exceptions of cars that have been too far gone when I bought them, ALL of my cars have been more than reliable enough in my usage, and most I bought with 6-figure miles on them to start with. I;ve only ever junked two cars, both due to rust. Every car I have bought new and maintained from day 1 has been all but faultless. So you aren’t getting any buy in to your “these cars are disposable” nonsense, because I have owned too many of them for waaay too many years to ever agree with you.
BMW and Mercedes are dead to me at this point beyond the cars I currently own, but I would have no fear at all about owning a newer one for as long as it didn’t bore me. if the Japanese made anything I liked, I’d buy Japanese, but they don’t (I did have a Fiata – chosen over a Miata because it was $10K cheaper). But for what little it is worth, my mother’s Prius-V, bought about the same time as my BMW wagon, was less reliable over the decade she had it. The driver/owner matters more than the car.
Cars are designed for a limited lifespan and, therefore, are disposable. Your anecdotal data and confusion in understanding maintenance and repair has zero to do with reality in general. After all, rust is repairable as well and can be prevented with what you consider “maintenance.” Your ignorance of the difference is why you consider them “faultless,” not because they didn’t have failures. If they were faultless, then your anecdotes are so unusual that they might explain your current delusions.
Go back and read my original comment and start again. It was about the fact that current models are designed for a very limited lifespan. Given that the data shows BMWs and MB cost 2-4 times more than other brands to keep on the road, they are more quickly discontinuing parts, and their consumer base very rarely owned their cars in the past 4 years, a very clear picture imerges.
Failures like wicking oil down the harness aren’t maintenance; they are failures largely because the brands don’t care about the long-term viability of their products. They don’t care because the people who buy them don’t care. As you stated, you aren’t their customer. You don’t matter.
You’ve wasted a lot of time trying to counter a rational opinion backed by data with a long rant about what you drive and why, which was never the point. Apparently, because you felt attacked for some reason, maybe a little therapy would help.
An expensive car should be more reliable if the parts and service cost more.
We all know that’s not always how it works.
One reason many moved toward trucks was manufacturer’s recognition that truck buyers don’t tolerate unreliability.
That is never how it works. Trucks are no more reliable in my experience, unless you are talking about semis.
The MOST reliable is the simplest version. What isn’t there will never break.
May be true of current models.
Time and again I found the parts specced by Ford on my 1995 Ranger were the best option available.
Universal joints on the driveshaft are only one size down from the full size trucks, and best option, though the model only has 120 hp.
Last crash I was hit by someone over 60 mph while parked off the street, and spun so hard the truck was on two wheels and I had a concussion. G force scattered things outside the truck.
Truck still ran fine.
Police said driver was “not looking through the windshield”.
My current truck has a better engine than some commercial trucks.
I’m shopping some commercial grade transmissions since I found out many are compatible, Allison, Eaton.
Not semi tough, but I won’t be hauling 80K lbs either.
Even good cars aren’t built to that standard any longer.
Serviceability is important too.
The Ranger was a decent truck, IF you can keep them from rotting away. Crude but certainly effective for what it was.
No rust problems yet.
Drove onto Bonneville Flats once for Speed week too.
First cleaning I was pulling chunks of Utah off the truck too.
You guys out west are lucky with that. The northeast, not so much. Maine is highly effective at dissolving cars and trucks.
I did solve the problem though – I moved 3/4 time to Florida. If I have to be in Maine in the winter, my babies stay in the garage and I rent something. Though Florida sun brings on it’s own set of issues…
Salt air in the wrong area can too.
The new 4WD is from Florida and has some salt damage.
Dash has totally disintegrated, seats to an extent. I believe some plastic lines have failed too.
Pretty enough for 4wd.
I’m in the southeast, but northern friends have recommended salt away.
Bonneville was worth it anyway.
Best car experience ever!
Lived up to world’s fastest Indian, and vice versa.
That’s more sun and heat than salt (I am religious about using windshield sun shields down here), though for sure being right on the beach is no good. You get that weird “top down” rust in the body rather than the frame rotting out. I am far enough away for it to not be a problem, but having only a one car garage for two cars means my Mercedes has suffered from the sun. The convertible gets the garage.
I’ve flown over Bonneville, but never been there. Must be pretty damned cool! I’d love to run something there.
Being next to the lake has no comparison to being out in the middle.
Like an alien environment.
Audio is different there too.
Racing atmosphere is like 1950s hot rodding.
Top speed runs are the center of weirdness for all Motorsports.
Wonderful things!
Wear sunscreen everywhere out there.
Normally I’d kind of agree, but both of the cars mentioned in this article were dealer maintained, neither are high mileage, and this particular leak seems like it’d pretty difficult to detect. Sounds like run of the mill germancaritis to me.
Germancaritis – also known as a secondary definition of “krankenwagen”
It’s not difficult to detect at all. The cam adjusters are right there on the front of the engine. I saw one of mine had started to seep when I was doing a monthly oil level check on the car. And replaced them all. Because if one is leaking, they all will be soon, and I don’t believe in playing whack-a-mole.
The problem is too many owners think that “maintenance” is taking the car to JiffyLube every once in a while. So nobody looks at the front of the engine, or they just dismiss it because “oil is cheap”. These cars tend to not mark their territory because the underside is completely covered with underpanels for aero and heat management, so you won’t even see oil spots on the driveway.
Sort of, and I get what you’re saying, but ECU death by oil intrusion seems like something that leans more towards design defect than maintenance. If you don’t change your oil, sure, that’s on you. If your oil changes itself onto wiring harnesses *all other things being in good repair* that seems a bit tilted.
No one wants to hear a mechanic say,
“Oh it didn’t wear out. It was just crap engineering!”
Sort of thing that gets repeated too.
“Sort of, and I get what you’re saying, but ECU death by oil intrusion seems like something that leans more towards design defect than maintenance”
And even if oil did intrude, oil is not like salt water. If anything, oil should help PREVENT corrosion. I think the whole ‘oil in the harness’ thing is a red herring and the real issue ‘cheap quality electronics’.
Consider as well that people have built oil-bathed computers for silent cooling for years:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/strip-fans,1203.html
Just because something is called “oil” doesn’t make them chemically related. Just like putting diesel in a gas car causes issues even though they are both “fuel” for an internal combustion engine. Add electrical current into the mix, and it can get really complicated.
I worked with a guy who bought a brand-new sailboat, and after one season of sailing, all of the stainless hardware was pitting. He thought they had used crap hardware, but when he brought it to the marina for warranty work, they knew right away that the issue was stray current. Something in the engine/battery hadn’t been isolated correctly and caused a low current level to be everywhere. That, combined with the salt water, basically totaled the boat in one season.
They ended up giving him a different boat, refitting his original and selling it as used.
Other things are not in good repair if your cam actuators are leaking. We can have a separate debate as to how long a component should go before it starts leaking, but to my mind 10 years is an adequate lifetime, and that is how long it took mine. And as soon as they started leaking, they were replaced. Which is the *correct* fix to this problem, not putting an additional component in the mix so that maybe you can just give it the ostrich treatment.
If leaking is predictable, then competent engineers should have designed for it.
If it can’t be prevented, it still doesn’t need to be a cascade failure.
Everything wears out eventually. Again, what is a “reasonable lifetime” is a different conversation. I find 10 years to be acceptable, if you don’t, buy something else and roll the dice.
I don’t really shop cars until they have been produced ten years and proven themselves.
I have had lightweight cars that were tough, but current trends for me have been aimed at reliability first.
I own a German car that has needed a battery in the past 14 years as my only out of pocket repair expense. Hard to get much more reliable than that. <shrug> It was the last full model year of that particular car, which certainly helps. They had most of the bugs worked out by then. Also the simplest version, and pauper spec. What isn’t there won’t break. And owned from new, maintained and driven by me, which is the most important factor of all.
Ultimately, for me, a 15yo Range Rover was reliable enough. Yes, stuff broke in the five years I owned it, but nothing all that major or expensive. Very little has broken in the now 30yo Land Rover Disco I that replaced it in the 10 years I have owned that. Also more than reliable enough. But the Disco has a hell of a lot fewer things that can break than a P38a Rangie. YMMV.
There are a couple of BMWs here and one is going to be used again by a relative.
I hope it’s one of the more sturdy models.
My personal stuff has gone Ford van, Volvo 245, Ranger, Cummins Tier Zero, recently a Dodge 4WD 318, runs but I’d call it a project.
4WD because rural.
There may be a pattern here.
BMWs are 528_ and a 328e.
Those are pretty stout, assuming e28 or e34 5s and a 325e has to be an e30, really just “old car dilemmas”. E39 5-series are the beginnings of the “German plastics” era, watch the cooling system like a hawk. Or just replace all the plastic bits and don’t worry about it for a decade.
I had two each of e28 535i’s and e30 318is’s – wish I still had one of each! Especially the second 318is – very sought after car these days, with nice ones being worth BANK. Sigh.
528e, possibly 1985?, sold in Germany to USA specs.
I seriously considered a Baur bmw once.
Very cheap for what it was.
Based on a 328, I think
My stepfather then mother had one of those for 20 years. tough car, Lots of scheduled maintenance that needs to be done in a timely manner. Note that for both eta engine cars the timing belt interval is 50K or 5 years, whichever comes first. Ignore that at your peril. 🙂
Thanks.
I confirmed it’s 1985.