Right now I’m selling an awesome electric car for what I would think is an insanely good price, and yet it’s a hard sell for complicated reasons that really only apply to electric cars. Here, allow me to explain my experience selling my first electric vehicle.
Back in the spring of 2023, I bought the cheapest BMW i3 for sale (by a dealer) in the country: A dark gray 2014 model with 135,000 miles on the clock for $10,500. For a carbon fiber car with a world-class interior, backup camera, self-parallel-parking feature, and an extremely good quality build, I thought it was a fantastic deal.
But the deal just got better. Because the California Air Resources Board requires all hybrids to have batteries covered for 10 years, 100,000 miles, BMW actually replaced my high voltage battery (which had dropped below the 70% state-of-health threshold) absolutely free. So now I have a fantastic range-extended electric car with a brand new battery, and I only paid $10,500. Over the past year, I’ve fallen in love with the i3, so much so that I subsequently decided to buy the ultimate version of the car, a 2021 i3S Giga World.
But it gets better. Now I’m having my car’s AC compressor replaced, also thanks to that CARB warranty, meaning the two major failure points on the BMW i3 are brand new. My i3 is basically a brand new car if you consider the value of the new components compared to the value of other wear components on a 145,000 miles vehicle, and if you get in and drive my i3, you’ll see that it feels like a new car, too.
Of course, now it’s time to sell the car (since I don’t need two i3s), and the process has been… different. Certainly different that I’m used to, as I’ve had to navigate some things that just don’t apply to ICE-powered vehicles.
Obviously, selling the car for the same price that I bought a 135,000 mile i3 with an old battery and compressor seems a bit silly. Yes, a year has elapsed and EV values have crashed, but the car has clearly gained value. And if you look at other i3s on the market, you’d conclude that, too.
[Note: Because discussions about money tend to get folks riled up, just know that this article is a discussion about some of the complex factors that go into selling my particular car — things I’ve never dealt with before in an ICE. In the end, the market will decide the value of my car, and I’m not really concerned about that. I am still learning about a few elements of the used EV market (esp. in regards to warranties, EV incentives, and tax rebates), and I’m sharing some of those learnings here. -DT].
It’s All About Mileage
The issue is trying to communicate that to buyers for whom EVs are a new concept. The average American car-buyer looks at a car’s miles and uses that to assess condition (I do to a certain degree, as well). My i3 has 145,000 miles on it, so the average consumer naturally thinks: “Uh, there are 10 i3s with half as many miles for less money; why would I buy that one?”
The answer, to us car enthusiasts, is obvious: A new high-voltage battery is a huge deal. And a compressor is also a huge deal. Those combined obviously outweigh the benefits of having 70,000 fewer miles on the suspension and brakes. Especially since it’s not clear that my 145,000 mile car is going to have more suspension/brake issues than a 70,000 mile car. At least, you would think.
Impressing this upon buyers has been a challenge. Getting folks away from the “miles are everything” mindset that they’re used to is just not going to happen because there was really never an equivalent before. Even selling a car with a brand new engine isn’t quite the same, since ICE cars have complex drivetrains that wear out with miles. With EVs, drivetrains are simple, so a new battery really goes a long way towards refreshing a car. What’s more, a new engine often indicates that an engine was poorly maintained, whereas a new battery just means… time has elapsed and the car got a new battery.
To be sure, miles don’t not matter; if all things are equal, they tend to indicate wear of certain components like suspension and steering and brake parts, plus they also are used to stand in as a representation of how much time the car was in service. And since time tends to degrade things like blower motors and other long-term-wear parts, miles are no doubt a worthy part of the “what condition is this car in” calculus.
But clearly a car with 145,000 miles and a new $30,000 battery and $5000 compressor is a better buy than a car with even 50,000 miles on a worn out battery and a compressor that can kill the whole car any second. But that’s a hard thing to impart upon someone, especially when cars tend to be valued by major valuation entities by mileage on the odometer.
But is is not my only issue.
Things Are Complicated: Tax Credit
The lack of understanding when it comes to the sheer value of a new battery/compressor is among my primary problems, but arguably as problematic is the way the government has set up the used EV tax rebate. It really, really hurts my sale prospects.
You see, an electric vehicle’s eligibility for the used EV tax credit (which is 30% of the sale price up to $4000) does not depend upon whether or not the vehicle has been used for the credit previously. My BMW i3, for example, has almost certainly never been used to receive a used vehicle tax credit because I’m fairly sure I’m the second owner.
And yet, I cannot offer a buyer the used EV rebate because of this unfortunate rule:
To qualify, a vehicle must meet all of these requirements:
- Have a sale price of $25,000 or less. Sale price includes all dealer-imposed costs or fees not required by law. It doesn’t include costs or fees required by law, such as taxes or title and registration fees.
- Have a model year at least 2 years earlier than the calendar year when you buy it. For example, a vehicle purchased in 2023 would need a model year of 2021 or older.
- Not have already been transferred after August 16, 2022 to a qualified buyer.
- Have a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 14,000 pounds
- Be an eligible FCV or plug-in EV with a battery capacity of least 7 kilowatt hours
- Be for use primarily in the United States
The bold print above may lead you to think “oh, it says qualified buyer, and you weren’t qualified for the rebate when you bought it.” Unfortunately, “qualified buyer” basically just means any buyer. And since I bought my car in April of 2023 (eight months after that August 16 date), the car is no longer eligible for a used EV rebate. Ever.
This is a huge issue when trying to resell an electric car. Why buy my i3 at my $12,000 asking price (or even at my own purchase price of $10,500, which is what I listed it at before the compressor went in) when you could just try to find a $15,000 later model and knock off $4,000? You basically get a $15,000 car for $11,000 instead of a $12,000 car for $12,000.
But there’s more.
Things Are Complicated: CARB Warranty
But there’s more to my plight here beyond just struggling to get buyers to understand how big of a deal a new battery/compressor is, and beyond being unable to offer buyers that tax rebate. To people who live in CARB states, my new compressor may not actually be a huge selling point.
The battery is still a huge deal, and who knows, maybe an educated buyer will understand that and buy the car for 12G’s (it is likely the cheapest, loaded Giga-World i3 with a guaranteed good battery in the country). But here’s the thing: If a CARB-state buyer picks up a BMW i3 with significantly under 150,000 miles on the odometer, they really don’t have to worry about the compressor. At least, not for a while.
That’s because the compressor — in CARB states — is covered by a 15 year, 150,000 mile warranty. My i3 will be out of warranty in 5,000 miles; if someone were to buy the aforementioned hypothetical 75,000 mile BMW i3 for less than my i3, they can be comfortable knowing that if their compressor goes bad, BMW will cover it until their car is 15 years old or has 150,000 miles on the clock. Their battery, too, has a 10 year warranty, so if a buyer picks up a 2015 or 2016, they could theoretically get a new battery should theirs fail.
But see, that’s a big if.
If a buyer were to pick up, say, a 2016 BMW i3 for $9,000, they’d be thrilled that they got a newer car with way fewer miles for $3,000 less than my car. But there’s a good chance their battery will not drop below the 70% threshold by year 10, and there’s a chance that compressor will hang on for 15 years.
We’ll ignore the compressor/15 year warranty since that’s six or seven years out, and buyers don’t care about that. But the battery thing is a big deal. When that 10 year-warranty passes in the next year or two, the buyer could be stuck with a car that has a 75% battery state of health. With my car, instead of driving a vehicle with an eight year-old battery that has 75,000 miles on it and probably an 85% state-of-health, you get a brand new battery. And if you’re worried about the 145,000 miles spelling the end of that 15/150 warranty, never fear, for the compressor is brand new.
[NOTE: Here’s an i3 for sale on Carvana. It costs $13,590, and it clearly has a worn-out battery, showing 39mi of range while full. Yikes!].
Again, it’s a bit complicated to explain.
My i3 Is A Great Deal To A Very Specific Customer. Very Specific.
So here’s the thing: Yes, it’s hard to convince buyers how valuable a good battery and compressor are; and yes it’s gonna be tough to sell the car at $12 grand given that it’s not eligible for the used EV rebate; and yes, CARB-state customers are going to say their car is still in warranty anyway.
But to a very specific customer, my 145,000 mile BMW i3 perfect. But that customer is very, very specific.
BMW i3 customers are already rare given that it’s a relatively low-range small car in a country that loves big trucks, has range anxiety, and is overrun by increasingly-cheaper Teslas with more range. But even among those folks looking specifically for i3s, I need to find a customer who a) Doesn’t live in a CARB state and b) Isn’t eligible for the IRA rebate.
For example, imagine a single person making over $75,000 AGI (or perhaps they already took a used EV credit within the past three years) and living in, say, Texas, looking for a budget-friend i3 for commuting from a suburban ranch to a workplace in town. If this person wanted a loaded i3 Giga World with a guaranteed good battery, they’d have to buy a 2017+ i3, since the 2017s had great batteries that degrade minimally. But then they’d still have the concern about the compressor; if it goes out, they could be legitimately hosed.
For this out-of-stater who doesn’t have the security of the CARB warranty and who also isn’t looking for an IRA rebate-eligible i3, you could argue my i3 is the best deal in the country. But my god is this a ridiculously specific person I’m looking for.
Yikes.
Anyway, I just thought I’d share that, since some of these issues are ones I’ve never had before when selling ICE cars. There was no IRA rebate to factor in, there was no ridiculously long CARB warranty, there wasn’t a massive knowledge gap in the general public about EVs.
Maybe I just need to be patient, or maybe I just keep the gray car and let the Grail go. If it’s between that and letting a perfectly good i3 go for a song, the cheap bastard in me will probably win out… It usually does.
Wait…
Is this still available?
Jokes aside, I truly appreciate this article as it does give a lot of thought about what the majority of used cars in the not so distant future will be. Battery performance test results are going to be stat we see listed next to mileage in the ads. Kudos for things to evaluate and selling/buying points of view.
A couple of things.
A/ Everyone needs to chill out about this. David is presenting something that in the future is going to be a quite common predicament. The fact that we are all reading and commenting on it says something.
B/ Was the ‘Texas buyer’ a snide reference to the first arcticle where ‘a subscriber’ from Texas used this forum to get deep into red/blue politics and complain that David was not allowed to change from a spaghetti showering parts dishwashing part tetnus rust fueled frozen Jeep wrencher?
Actually, no! Sounds like I missed something!
Great article and vigorous comments! I think David is searching for Mr. Spock (someone who can evaluate the purchase with cold logic) who also lives in non-CARB state and is not eligible for the EV tax rebate. Unfortunately for him I think logic-driven people are not attracted to brands with slogans like “Sheer Driving Pleasure” and “The Ultimate Driving Machine.”
My brother and I are engineers, logic driven people. We’ve been attracted to BMWs multiple times. After much consideration, the best BMW value for performance, initial cost and cost of ownership is an e36, hence why we own and daily an e36 M3.
We drove an i3 when new, it was a riot but also gave me the worst case of vertigo I’ve ever experienced all due to the aggressive regen braking. I do think the i3 is a fine car, but it’s also outclassed by most other EVs so people looking for a cheap EV with some performance are flush with better options.
Too true!
This has really got me thinking about the difference between high-mileage, older ICE cars vs. EVs.
Consider the same situation: 10 years old, 145K, but an ICE vehicle with new engine instead of EV with new battery. I think the EV is considerably more valuable. I think I run screaming from the engine swapped ICE.
Great, thoughtful article, thank you David. I don’t understand why you’re getting some of the flak you are getting here in the comments.
Also, as Usernametaken said, you may want to just take a bath on this one. You have to value your time and effort in selling things.
Much appreciated!
Yeah, whenever I see a high-mileage car with an engine replacement in its description I immediately close the ad. Why did the original engine fail? Was the replacement done correctly? Is the “new” engine even any good? Assuming the answer to the first question could be neglect, what other things are going to break?
So, to me, someone saying they have a 145,000 mile car with a replacement engine does nothing to the value at best, lowers it at worst. I don’t know if corners were cut in the engine replacement or if parts that shouldn’t have been reused were put back in.
I would apply the same logic to EVs, but with a caveat. If the battery was installed by some guy in his garage, or the battery was restored by cracking it open and replacing dead modules, that’s not worth anything to me. But David’s situation of a fully brand new battery installed by experienced techs and there’s still a little bit of a warranty left? Ok, now I’m on board.
I’d buy a 500,000-mile Phaeton with an actual brand new engine in a heartbeat. Wait, no, Mercedes, that’s a bad idea. lol
Mercedes.
Consider this before auto closing the ad.
Many new engines are just that, or rebuilt by good shops, or people at home.
A new engine comes with a warranty. As you mention in your comment.
But to be honest here, an engine (used) installed by the guy in his driveway is usually something I approach with a lot of doubt.
Very true Col! The cars I’m usually buying high-mileage have depreciated so far that a legitimately new engine is worth as much or more than the car itself is…and you’re still left with a 145k-mile VAG product when you’re done. lol
So, whenever I see a “new” engine advertised in, say, a 150k-mile first gen Audi TT, it usually means “junkyard engine” or “taken out of a parts car.” But I would buy a used car with a legitimately new engine, but I’ve never seen that in the market I buy in.
I offered to buy DT’s i3, too, but I’m even more of a cheapskate than he is, so even the $10,500 he originally paid is more than I’d pay.
I have bought some used stuff with junkyard or owner rebuilt engines a few times. But have always felt like I was perhaps driving a ticking bomb. Being able to see receipts, etc. can make it a lot less stressful.
And as an aside, I enjoy your camping stuff a ton.
I’d trust a junkyard engine swap a lot more than the unknown-guy-rebuilt-in-his-garage engine.
The junkyard engines all come with a (short) warranty, so if the first one is bad the junkyard would replace it (yes, the labor is on you, but that’s the main gamble with the used engines), while a rebuild can end up bad in a thousand different ways, even if done with extreme care by an experienced engine builder (not to mention all the different things that get replaced/renewed or not, as part of the ‘rebuild’).
Agreed.
I have been doing my own rebuilds for 50 years now. Stuff that I don’t have the tools for gets farmed out. Like heads, block, etc. Guess I’ve been lucky because have never had any issues with my engines.
Junkyard engines scare me because you don’t know anything about them, unless it’s still in the car. Then one can examine the car to get a general idea of what kind of owner it had.
And I never trust how someone else rebuilds an engine in their garage. Have actually torn down some of them, and discovered some really stupid crap. But that’s life.
$10,500 is what he paid a dealer. He’s now doing a private sale and somehow thinks he’s owed an extra $1500 for 10k miles worth of engineer farts and two trips to the dealership for warranty repairs.
I’m not sure I understand this “he thinks he’s owed” mentality. Nobody thinks anyone’s owed anything. I’m just listing a car that I took a risk on and bought really broken for $1,500 more now that it’s not broken. The market will decide if it wants it; it may not! But based on what I know about the i3 market, I ultimately think it will IF I can find the right buyer (whom I describe in the piece).
You’re literally ‘I know what I gotting’ because the market is very unlikely to value the car as highly as you are.
Your $10.5k purchase price was before the surge in cheap used model 3’s and very cheap leases on Hyundai / Kia EVs.
You want to explain to people that somehow ~145k miles is pretty much the same as much lower mileage. Even though it may be true as an ownership experience, it is definitely not the case when it comes time to sell.
This car has essentially ALL the strikes against it when it comes to a used car.
I wish you luck with the sale, and hope that the fact that your reach can help you find the oddball buyer you require, but for a non-published civilian selling this vehicle your price is going to be a bit high.
I don’t disagree with many of your points! Based on what I know, I do think there’s a buyer to whom it very much is worth 12, but maybe I’ll end up being wrong, here; wouldn’t be the first time! I’ll keep you posted.
I’m sure I will read all the updates. I hope you make me eat my words.
Seems like you are in the clear.
https://www.theautopian.com/why-my-electric-car-is-so-hard-to-sell/#comment-483787
I also have that same reaction for most newer cars, but exceptions can be made for older ones as illustrated by this actual conversation from when I bought my ’82 Jaguar XJ6:
Me: So, what was this engine out of?
Seller: Not 100% sure, I think it was a Camaro. It’s a 350 – there’s some paperwork that comes with it, but I’ve never went through it.
Me: Any idea of how many miles are on it?
Seller: The engine? No idea. Same with the car – the odometer’s broke. I can say the oil only has around a couple hundred miles on it, although it’s been several years since I changed it.
Me: Any other overall issues with it?
Seller: Just the electrical – the lights all work, but that’s about it.
Me: So… if I try to drive it home tonight, what’s the best you can do [asking price: $3500]?
Seller: Uh.. idk, $2300?
Me: Sold!!
We did make it home even though we couldn’t open the windows or sunroof and it was 90+ degrees out that evening. I’ll never forget my daughter, who was six at the time, drinking a comically big Gatorade and sweating like crazy saying “Dad, this is the coolest car ever!”
We still have that Jaaaag. Fixed the electrical (most of it was one bad relay), put over 25,000 miles on it, and used it for quite a few of my daughter’s driving lessons. Sometimes you have to roll those dice!
Also, when manufacturers replace engines under warranty or extended campaign, it’s often just the long block…not anything attached to it. This can give people a false sense of security, because they think they’ve got an all-new engine and should start their maintenance schedule all over (if they do any maintenance in the first place).
When my sister’s 2014 Soul threw a rod due to the 2.0-liter defect and Kia replaced it, they transferred all the hoses, belts, pulleys and accessories from the original engine. It was the same for my mom’s 2012 Sonata Limited 2.4, which also threw a rod due to an assembly defect.
Better yet, a shower, since it’s just about lunchtime in L.A.
“take a bath on this one”
I think he prefers showers
(w/ spaghetti)
the big question then is if you say swapped a 100K LKQ engine for an original 279K motor would you disclose this or let the buyer think they just have really good running 1/3 million mile car.
I’m curious if you got this from data collected from somewhere? Because your car needed a new battery before year 10. You think yours is an exception?
I do. It’s probably a top 1%er in the world in terms of miles driven. And averaging 15K mi a year for nine years on a car that could only do 70mi on the highway tells me this thing was used hard. And in extremely hight temperatures in southern California.
Does the car keep a record of how many miles or hours the REX have ran? I’m just wondering if you have ruled out the possibility that it was the REX that was used hard.
I think your biggest problem is that with 12K, you can buy a pretty decent used car that doesn’t look like a doofus-weeniemobile.
Oh I’ve been writing about my purchases/sales for almost a decade now, and never with any other intention than to tell a story. (If I wanted to sell the car to readers, I definitely wouldn’t have written this article!).
Sometimes I wonder if this site was started so all the writers could sell their cars. ????
I’m not sure I could ever sell my cars to a reader. 🙂 I like to keep personal matters separate from work and family just for the peace of mind.
I also don’t have David’s luck! I think I’ve lost money on almost every car I’ve sold. I have a much better track record with bikes.
In case anyone wants a resolution…
David dropped the price from $12k to $9,999 and now is marked as sold. Also, David never disclosed in his Facebook ad that the compressor had been changed, only the battery.
The failure to disclose the compressor seems to be a potential reason why he could not find a buyer at his asking price. An informed/enthusiast buyer would be looking for this and would use to knock the price down.
Also, what caused the compressor to be replaced under CARB warranty? Was the car listed knowing the compressor was an issue that needed to be replaced but failed to disclose up front?
The beginning of the article above said the compressor was being replaced but then later he said his asking price was $10.5 k before the compressor went in
Ah, that was an old listing that I’ve since removed. Once the compressor is replaced, it’ll be relisted. (Or I’ll keep it; I haven’t decided).
The AC actually worked great! I just decided to take the car in in the off-chance that I could get a compressor replaced (since compressors on i3s are a BIG DEAL); turns out, I could! So that’s why the car has been marked sold and will be relisted with the new compressor.
Thanks for pointing that out!
That ad had been up for two months and it is the only ad for your car I could find. No one is buying it because it was priced too high and now people are wondering why it has been on the market for that long.
Also, it did not even come up when I did a FB marketplace search for your car. I had to click on the FB link you posted on X in order to find it.
Ah, OK that’s how you found the ad. Yes, at $12K it was indeed a tough sale; lots of folks are concerned about the compressor, I reckon, and no doubt my article didn’t make selling the car easier lol. At 10 there was plenty of interest, but then on a whim I took the car in and learned I’m getting a new compressor, so this changes the calculus a bit…Hmm, to keep or not to keep. 12 might get me to part ways with it, though who knows…
If the sophisticated, well informed and over-charged for gasoline Californians aren’t buying this ev at the hoped for price, then it’s probably time to start the fire sale.
Depending on the locale we are also overcharged for electricity to the point gas is sometimes cheaper than Joules.
Don’t sell it –
List it on Turo.
Think of all the interactions – the content practically writes itself!
Genius!
This is David Tracy’s second article on why buyers should pay more for his old electric cars. To his credit, his perseverance has paid off. But I wouldn’t buy this i3 – or his almost bricked Leaf from the first article – for anywhere near his asking prices.
Re the i3.
It’s got 145,000 miles, which is really too much to expect for a reliable daily driver in my opinion.
It has just enough range to let me commute to my office whether new or rebuilt. In short, it’s old and obsolete, though it does have some usefulness as a motor vehicle.
I can buy a 2014 Tesla Model S with fewer miles for $14,000 all day long and they have double the range, at least, and batteries proven to last (mostly). Or I can buy a newer Chevy Volt for $12,000 with enough electric range to commute and a gas engine for the open range. To be honest, I like both of those cars more than the BMW, but some folks like BMWs so maybe that’s not an argument.
At $10,000 David’s i3 makes some sense in the face of it’s used market competitors. It doesn’t matter what he’s done to it. It’s a car that’s worth $10,000. Arguing for more is just empty words on a page (though I read most of them.)
But, I’m still amazed he got anything for that almost bricked Nissan Leaf so maybe I’m talking out of my left ear.
I’ve just found this whole process interesting, and figured I’d share it with you all.
Because these are questions that are going to come up. Do you buy this 2015 i3 with a clearly worn-out battery pack for $13,500 or do you go for a higher mileage car with a new battery pack for $1,500 less? What are the priorities when it comes to things like miles/battery pack freshness? How do tax credits/CARB warranties all play into it?
It’s all interesting stuff, and a definitely a learning experience.
“Do you buy this 2015 i3 with a clearly worn-out battery pack for $13,500 or do you go for a higher mileage car with a new battery pack for $1,500 less?”
You could instead buy this 79k 2015 REX equipped I3 for $7,995:
https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/d/long-beach-bmw-i3-with-range-extender/7782503087.html
Or this 80k 2015 one for $8,500:
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/d/los-gatos-bmw-i3-range-extender/7783347061.html
Or this 2014 96k one with 4 new tires also for $8,500:
https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/d/irvine-bmw-i3-rex-range-extender/7780985882.html
Here’s a 44k 2014 one for $9,999:
https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/denver-2014-bmw-i3-range-extender/7788380669.html
If you just want an i3, go for it. But of those, the only one that’s well-equipped is the San Jose car at $8,500. Buy that with a worn out battery and compressor or spend $3,500 and get $35,000 worth of battery/compressor? To me, the choice is clear (esp. if I’m not in a carb state). To the average buyer not in the know? Maybe not.
“Well equipped” is relative. Some of us are perfectly happy with the features of modern base models. More than that is just crap to go wrong, especially on an out of warranty, older German car.
“It’s got 145,000 miles, which is really too much to expect for a reliable daily driver in my opinion.”
Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of daily driven cars with higher mileage than that offer a different view.
I think you are falling for the enthusiast misunderstanding that “maintenance and new parts” increase the value of a used vehicle. No, they simply keep it from being worth even LESS. At the end of the day, despite the new battery and A/C compressor you have a car with more miles and years of depreciation on it.
Of course the best way to figure out what the thing is worth is to put it on an auction site and what it brings, it brings. Maybe you will be pleasantly surprised. Surely BaT or Cars and Bids would throw you a solid and let you post it.
I also think it is *hilarious* that people think that EVs are going to be a better long-term proposition because they motor only has a couple moving parts. I have owned over 50 cars in my time, most “well depreciated” and I have never once had a major issue with the oil bits. It’s the REST of the damned things that pack up as they age that are identical to EVs that will bankrupt you. As you say – A/C (over the years I am very confident I have spent more on fixing A/C than possibly everything else combined), suspension (all that extra road hugging weight is going to do that no favors) electric this and that, computer modules, crumbling interior plastics, window regulators, on and on and on. Absent buying utter garbage like the explodey KIAs and sundry American crap, decent ICE go *forever*. I have BOUGHT Volvos with 250K on them and drove then without a care in the world for the motivation machinery.
Personally, the ONLY way I would own an EV at this point is LEASED. For exactly this reason – $30K for a replacement battery for a car that was $50(?) new is absolutely absurd (as were the prices of these things to start with). And reality is even if you PARK an EV and never drive it, the battery will still degrade over time, unlike a properly stored ICE – and you can pretty damned easily resurrect an improperly long-term stored ICE – good luck doing that to an old battery that has been sitting for 25 years. And these early EVs are basically science projects with minimal long-term support from the makers to start with, even if you ARE lucky enough to be in CA or one of the other CARB-following states so you get the extra warranty. 10-15 years is just not a long time, and after that, good luck, you are gonna need it.
I can 100% back up the maintenance and parts does not equal more value, at least in my case. For 2,500 dollars I bought a 06 350z with a cool quarter million miles on it. I saved it from certain doom, dumped another 4-5 grand doing 90% of work myself, and so I’ve got 6,500-7000 into it (including purchase price) and it’s basically brand new at this point. But because it has a quarter million miles, despite all my maintenance and the fact that it’s nicer than 70% of 350zs with half the miles CarFax and most other car value calculators say it’s worth around 3,500 or 4,000. Not a great return on investment monetarily, but I plan to keep the car for as long as I can + I really just wanted to save it from the crusher since it’s a rare and awesome color. Owning cool cars and fixing them doesn’t always mean they need to turn a profit when/ if you sell them.
That really is the trick. You resurrect and/or run old cars because you love them, not because you think you are going to make money from them. If you hit the lottery and get a car that becomes wildly desirable and you can sell it for more than you paid for it, well, lucky you!
I did similarly with my last RWD Volvo. I found a lovely low-miles ’91 94GLE 16V on eBay, bought the thing, and then spent THOUSANDS sorting it out. Like 3X what I paid for it. And I sold it four years on (as a fully sorted out car with literally not a single thing wrong with it) for what I paid for it, and was lucky to get that.
In all the used cars I have bought, I have always viewed replacement parts as helping convince me to make the deal, not increasing the value in any way. Mind you my average car purchase price is sub $3000, so that does influence this. A car that needs work doesn’t scare me, the work someone else has done on a car sometimes does scare me.
Exactly.
Excellent article on relative perceived value. To add to that argument how is a 2014 i3 with a new battery and compressor more valuable than a 201x Bolt with a new battery that is selling for a few thousand more?
That sounds obnoxious. But yeah… I gotta say if it was between a car with 70k for less money, vs one with double the miles and a brand new battery, I’d still rather have the lower mileage example UNLESS the 140k mile version had brand new struts, strut mounts, tie rod ends, etc etc etc.
So, how much of a range/charge delta is worth x number of miles in your eyes? If it’s between a 70K mile car with good struts and 40mi/charge and a 145K mile car with 80mi/charge and also good struts but ones that might go bad sooner, what’s the move?
Man…. see that question alone is complex; I just googled the car gets around 30mpg with the range extender running, which is less than I thought. I suppose it would depend on if I had a long commute, and how much the extra EV range would help me out.
Maybe the one with the newer battery, but I’d want a DEAL on the price since the miles are way higher, and I know that drastically affects resale value.
So basically…. drop the price $500 a week til it sells.
Simple. Don’t buy either one. Buy a different car that doesn’t have tens of thousands of dollars in built in dilemmas at relatively tender ages.
There is no universe in which you will save any money buying one of these over a same-priced Prius.
You may be wondering why I don’t just offload the car for $9,500 tomorrow and be done with it. I think it comes down to the fact that I’m currently in the process of deciding whether to keep this gray 2014 i3 or my gold 2021 i3.
Given that I’m now getting the compressor swapped, holding what will almost certainly be a reliable 2014 i3 and pocketing $20 grand is more tempting than ever.
At $12 large, that’s where I think I’d let the gray car go and just drive the Grail. So we’ll see if I can find that unicorn buyer.
I know I threw this idea out there elsewhere, but does there exist a universe where you could drivetrain-swap the new bits into the grail?
That’s an interesting idea!!!! DT, look into this! Could do your first battery swap! Probably leave the compressor alone, but the gold one with a new battery would be god tier, right?
OTOH, it’s supppppperrrrr nice having a daily that you don’t really care if it gets scratches or dents. I’m not sure how you’d feel about that happening to the gold one. If it makes you real stressed out, ditch the gold one and keep the one with the fresh battery, and drive it into the ground.
So, it’s a good question: The reason why I wouldn’t do this is that the 2021 model has a battery twice the size of the 2014 model, and not only that, the new battery is known for basically remaining completely degradation-free through at least 50,000 miles (based on reports; don’t have much data above 50K).
My 2021’s battery would have to degrade 50% before it was at the same point as my 2014’s brand new battery, and that would probably take a few decades if I had to guess.
As for the compressor: My 2021’s compressor has only 20K miles on it, and if it fails at any point in the next 13 years, 130,000 miles, it’ll be covered.
Yeah, I thought the answer would be something like this.
Ah…. yeah that makes sense. I guess it just boils down to how much you car about the paint on the gold one. If it makes you happy, do it, life is short… but if you’re still happy with the other one, ditch the gold one and drive the other one into the ground while you work on your other projects. That’s what I’ve been doing with my insight. Approaching 300k miles, still getting 55-60mpg, everything still works. Paint is roached. Transmission grinds. It’s sort of beat…. but I’m driving it til it blows up. Which I’m not sure I can do with one lifetime and multiple vehicles.
*A geezer slowly emerges from the bowls of Curmudgeon Hall, his progress impeded by an aching back*
David, you’re a nice guy as evident by your writing, and Jason vouches for you.
Congratulations on a successful proposal! It is understandable that you want to reduce overhead and raise funds. It was also understandable that you were taken with your first i3, and it was a perfect fit for your use case. When you bought the second one for 30k, I rolled my eyes like only Marty Feldman can. It sounds like you’re saying you can only get 20k for that now? Holy belly flop off the high dive! That doesn’t really surprise me, but I hope you can do better. Maybe do the research to confirm its rarity, and have it prominently displayed at Galpin? Your old purchases of rusty stuff could only go up in value as you worked on them, as they were truly bottomed out. I’m pretty sure that does not apply to EVs, or any software defined vehicle. I see them as purely consumables like a smartphone or laptop that will continue to rapidly lose value. Please tell me that the replacement compressor can no longer threaten black death!
If it weren’t for the cost of shipping, I fit the profile you are looking for. I’ve been looking at a 2019 i3s Rex in an BMW dealer in Atlanta. They are asking $23k for it. The only thing it has over yours in the bigger battery pack.
I don’t qualify for the tax incentive and I don’t live in a CARB state (TN). I need to go back and read your previous articles on this car.
I am that person.
FWIW, I sold an 18 month old 2016 Nissan LEAF for $5K, simply because nobody wanted it… Had 2300 miles!
jeeez dude, how much did you spend on it 18 months earlier?
FWIW, I sold an 18 month old 2016 Nissan LEAF for $5K, simply because nobody wanted it… Had 2300 miles!
jeeez dude, how much did you spend on it 18 months earlier?
There is is only one CARB state, California. CARB means California Air Resource Board.
Other states may follow California’ laws but they usually put their own spin on them.
Honestly I am not inclined to have much sympathy. FIrst, the car got a new battery and compressor at no cost to you thanks to government regulations. So you’re ahead in that regard. However government regulations are worked against you due to the unavailability of the EV rebate. The government giveth and the government taketh away. (yes, two different governments, but you get the general idea). It seems likely that BMW lost money on this car thanks to the CARB rules. While I can appreciate the benefit to the car owner here, it’s not hard to see why auto makers don’t like California. Also, you purchased the car so you should have figured there was a chance it would be hard to sell at some given price. Lastly, the world is full of uneducated car buyers so in some sense you are overthinknig all this. Just drop the price to under $9990 and someone who doesn’t know better will jump on the deal.
“It seems likely that BMW lost money on this car thanks to the CARB rules.”
Nooooo… they lost money on it because of corner cutting with key parts that resulted in those key parts not lasting as long as they should have.
That is entirely plausible, and supported by the idea that no one should expect a German car to last a long time without the need for a large supply of money.
I went through something vaguely similar selling my old high mileage manual transmission ICE car. A lot of people were probably scared by it having the original clutch. Uh, that means it was driven fairly gently and with many fewer shifts than a comparable car with 100k fewer miles on clutch #2. It had a new turbo because of a design flaw that will eventually get every single turbo on those engines. So, old car with a mix of old and new parts. It was priced to sell and sold the day I listed it for about triple the trade in value. At its age, anything more than trade in value is doing well.
I have no frame of reference for the i3, but I own a 2012 Volt and have spent some time on the owner-forums for that car. Quite a few heartbreaking tales of folks that have taken the plunge on a new (refurbished) battery pack for a higher-mileage chassis because they loved their Volt and wanted to drive it another 10 years…
Only to have some other oddball, near-unobtanium component go out six months later that they’re then quoted some obnoxious high-dollar amount to try and fix. It sucks, but such is the experience of racking up significant miles on a low-volume, new-tech production car. New components add some value, but there is always the thought of some other unknown original component just waiting to ruin the owner’s good time.
Speaking of, I recently received the message-‘o-death on my own Volt the other day, the dreaded “reduced propulsion” message showed up. The forum suggestion for this situation is to run on Mountain Mode all the time and never shut the car off when the gas engine is running. With a little luck, I’m hoping to coax it all the way to 145,000 miles ;-).
I still slow down and admire the 1st gen Volt when I see one in traffic, it was quite the moonshot GM vehicle that somehow didn’t get the immense accolades it deserved. Back in the day the right-wing knuckleheads called it the “Obama-car” despite it having its entire genesis and beginnings under W. Bush. What strange times these have been.
The i3 is the only other series hybrid I’ve wanted, but my Fiat Abarth continues to put an immense smile on my face every time I drive it.
I’d buy one of these in a heartbeat if I needed fantastic economy, but I work from home …
https://aptera.us/
The Volt is a cool vehicle. I wish they’d advertised it. I honestly hadn’t even known it existed until a few years back.
Oh ffs, those “Obama-mobile” comments were the worst. I honestly wasn’t ready for that part of the ownership experience. Followed closely by “Idk why you’d want something like that… cost more on your electric bill that it does to put gas in it”.
On that last bit, I was even amazed at how much cheaper it was to run on electricity. When I would point out that my commuting costs went from $5.00/per day (in a ’93 Cadillac) to $0.75/day on electricity, it was met with a grunt and “huh… but, you still have to plug it in every night, right?”. The horror.
YMMV. If you had to depend on EA charging at $0.43/kWh (typical price) you’d be paying the equivalent of $5.75/gallon
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31618&#tab1
I think its a good bet a gallon of premium is cheaper where you live.
That’s about as relevant as the price of jet fuel, since Volts don’t fast charge.
Which makes electricity an even worse option for those without a plug at home.
Buying a PHEV and not plugging it in is pretty dumb, yeah. In fact, I’d like PHEVs to have to be checked for charging sessions after their first year and tax/regulatory credits for them clawed back if they haven’t been plugged in.
It really rankled me when BMW advertised its early non-i3 PHEVs as “plugging in is optional, performance is not”. They were happy to take plug-in tax credits on them!
Its not dumb when gas costs less than plugging in overnight at home which it often is here in PG&E land.
So why buy a PHEV over a hybrid? Because things can change faster than your ownership of the car. Prices change, perks change, incentives change, car values change, charging opportunities change, etc. PHEVs offer the most options to take advantage of those changes.
I was fortunate to have the opposite experience – our electricity was already pretty cheap at that time at $0.10/kWh, but in the winter the utility company would knock down the rates as the usage increased to take the edge off some pretty insane utility bills. Since I have a heated garage and a relatively large old Craftsman-style house that isn’t terribly efficient, I would often hit “Tier-3 winter rates”, which brought the electricity cost down to $0.025/kWh for whatever amount of electricity I used past a certain point.
Now, I don’t know which electrons went where, but I liked to think I was recharging with those super-cheap ones as it would take my commuting costs down to around five bucks for a whole month.
Why not insulate the garage? Rockwool is cheap enough.
The 3-car garage is actually fairly well-insulated – it was built in 1998, but even with the thermostat set at it’s lowest – 45°F , just opening one of the doors to get a car out evacuates a good deal of heat in short order.
The house on the other hand is stucco-covered and once the outside temp gets down around 0°F for a few days it doesn’t matter what we set the furnace to, it mostly just tries to keep up. We usually keep it at 64. Between the two buildings, it all adds up quickly once the polar-vortex arrives.
Had a new roof installed on both last year. Once that’s paid for I’m hoping to install solar out back and some auxiliary base-board electric heating in a couple of the colder rooms. Unless of course we “need” another car by then 🙂 .
Have you looked into heat pump water heaters? I looked into those and at our rates payback was about a year over a comparable electric unit. For you with much cheaper power it would be a lot longer but still well within the lifetime of the heater. There may be rebates as well.
Heat pump water heaters would be much less of a load on a PV solar system.
Thanks for the suggestion! I was unaware of those. I had been planning on installing a standard electric water heater in place of the gas one. I already did that in one of my rental units (gas has went up by quite a bit in the last few years) and the change in the bill-amount was negligible.
If I had real money I’d retrofit my 100+ year-old house with a geothermal system to go along with the solar. My boss set up his place with one and loves it – his heating bills have become non-existent and his house is enormous.
Of course YMMV so please check the math for yourself before making a purchase. I used the energy star ratings for the energy used per year and my utility bills for the cost of that electricity.
Holy false premise Batman!
Nobody’s paying that much to charge a Volt – and guys like me with 14kwh’s of solar panels pay essentially zilch to charge EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise
Holy false premise Batman!
Nobody’s paying that much to charge a Volt
Don’t think so? Here’s PG&E’s web site showing $0.31-$0.62 kWh summer residential charging rates paid by millions of northern Californians:
https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan/electric-vehicles.html#ev2adetails
(That doesn’t include taxes, fees and whatnot either)
Here’s Nerdwallet claiming a typical national rate at EA is $0.48/kWh:
“Example charging costs, and how they compare with gas
A common rate at Electrify America chargers is 48 cents per kilowatt hour.”
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/how-to-use-electrify-america
Here’s the EPA’s mileage calculator with Gen1 and Gen2 Volts:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31618&id=36863&#tab1
go ahead and plug in the numbers yourself but $0.31kWh works out to about $4.10/gal in a Volt, $0.62 is double that or $8.20 and to charge at EA you’ll be paying the equivalent of $6.40/gallon
and guys like me with 14kwh’s of solar panels pay essentially zilch to charge EVs.
You have home solar, good for you. Other people pay less for electricity, good for them. That doesn’t mean “Nobody’s paying that much to charge a Volt” when clearly millions of Californians and anyone using an EA charger do.
You assume a Volt can fast-charge at Electrify America at those higher rates, which it can’t. There’s a lot of assumptions in your criticism, and all of them worst-case scenarios. That’s called ‘cherry picking’.
At the end of the day, the vast majority of EV users will have far lower operational costs than their ICE counterparts. I’m not worried about edge-case scenarios.
All the data shows EV’s are cheaper and better for the environment, and getting incrementally better every day as new battery chemistries debut. Pearl-clutching at this point is a waste of time.
You assume a Volt can fast-charge at Electrify America at those higher rates, which it can’t.
No. I assumed that average $/kWh rate at the biggest public charging network is representative of most non subsidized publicly available chargers regarded of charging speed. Given level 2 charging is going to tie up the charger longer than fast charging it’s not a stretch to think EA would not give much of a discount for the slower charging speed.
However since you brought it up here’s another source claiming $0.30/kWh is an average price for level 2 charging in CA:
“Drivers in California may expect to pay 30 cents per kWh to charge on Level 2”
https://driveclean.ca.gov/electric-car-charging
As I already showed that still puts electricity on parity with California prices gasoline prices in a Volt.
There’s a lot of assumptions in your criticism, and all of them worst-case scenarios. That’s called ‘cherry picking’. At the end of the day, the vast majority of EV users will have far lower operational costs than their ICE counterparts. I’m not worried about edge-case scenarios.
So millions of Northern Californians and the 1 in 8 US residents who live in apartments are an edge case….Hmm, I don’t think so, especially when the challenge was “Nobody’s paying that much to charge a Volt”.
All the data shows EV’s are cheaper and better for the environment, and getting incrementally better every day as new battery chemistries debut.
Que the scarecrow.
The cost of EVs and their environmental impact are not the issue. The cost to charge those EVs is the issue which as I have shown may not be cheaper than filling an equivalent PHEV or ICE car with gasoline.
You DO realize that the Volt is a series hybrid and isn’t at the whim of expensive rapid charging stations? If someone lives in the tiny % of America where an electric charging facility is more expensive than gas … use gas.
Additionally the average utility electric rate in America is $0.16 per kWh, far from your worst case scenario price of nearly double that.
Again, I’d like to lean into your own words:
“May”. But very, very often EVs are far cheaper than an equivalent ICE auto. I’m mystified as to why edge case scenarios are so extraordinarily important to you that the other 99% of scenarios are overlooked. I can’t tell if you’re a bad-faith debater and trolling me or just have the misfortune of living within your own worst, edge-case scenario.
You DO realize that the Volt is a series hybrid and isn’t at the whim of expensive rapid charging stations? If someone lives in the tiny % of America where an electric charging facility is more expensive than gas … use gas.
Absolutely and that is my very point. If however you live in such an area and bought a BEV without due diligence assuming the EV-are-so-much-cheaper-than-gas hype applied to you as well you are in for a rude awakening.
Additionally the average utility electric rate in America is $0.16 per kWh, far from your worst case scenario price of nearly double that.
That’s not worst case. Hawaii pays more than we do.
https://www.hawaiianelectric.com/billing-and-payment/rates-and-regulations/average-price-of-electricity
Their gasoline prices are comparable to ours though.
I’m mystified as to why edge case scenarios are so extraordinarily important to you that the other 99% of scenarios are overlooked.
I have no idea why you would think so. At no point have I overlooked any other situations. I simply pointed out situations where gasoline is cheaper than electricity in the same car do indeed exist as it does for myself and millions of my fellow Northern Californians served by PG&E.
There are always exceptions to every rule. It’s when people lean deeply into the exceptions and present them as common and pervasive that I feel the need to comment.
Somebody, somewhere paid more to charge their EV than if they’d gassed up an equivalent ICE car.
Cool. Let’s move on.
I “lean into it deeply” because its all too common where I live. It doesn’t help that EV chargers don’t prominently display their prices nor is there AFAIK a gas buddy equivalent for EV charging so a proper regional real time and historical pricing comparison of gas to electricity is made that much harder.
Fair point.
My first gen insight is had 283k miles on the original pack. Crazy that Volts struggle to hit 150k…..
It’s more of a time-expiration thing than miles. There are a bunch out there at the 200K mark, and I think there is one, “Sparkie”, that hit 400K+ (edit: maybe 500K according to that reddit post) on its original pack. I drove ours all the time for the first few years we had it. If I had kept that up, I’m sure it would be approaching or past 200K right now. However, after the car had paid for itself, I went back to driving my classics a lot more often and my wife, who drives a lot less, became the main operator.
It’s too bad though, because the car is still really nice overall. Once the battery pack does give up the ghost, I plan to part it out in order to help the die-hards keep their 1st-gens on the road.
Are you sure the CARB warranty doesn’t apply if the car isn’t in a CARB state? The warranty applies to the car, it shouldn’t matter where it is.
Update, apparently it does need to be registered and used in a CARB state. This seems like an oversight in the rules.
It’s actually up the automaker if they want to provide the extra warranty coverage in non-CARB states for EVs or SULEV ICE cars. Some do, most probably don’t at this point.
In the case of BMW specifically, through 2010 model year a SULEV car only had to be *purchased* in a CARB state (and they only officially sold them in those states to start with). 2011 and up purchase no longer mattered but it has to be currently *registered* in a CARB state. Which is why I pay the annual excise tax extortion to keep my SULEV N51-engined BMW 128i convertible registered at my summer place in Maine, even though the car actually lives at my winter place in Florida. It will be 15 years old next June, until then I have warranty on all sorts of expensive bits. But come 7/1/25, it’s going to be re-registered in FL, which will save me $200+ a year.
Of course, spending that extra money has meant that absolutely NOTHING has broken in the four years I have owned the car that would be covered (I could have said nothing broke at all, but the windshield washer pump just packed up on it this week). And it will implode starting 7/1/2025.
“Anyway, I just thought I’d share that, since some of these issues are ones I’ve never had before when selling ICE cars. There was no IRA rebate to factor in, there was no ridiculously long CARB warranty, there wasn’t a massive knowledge gap in the general public about EVs.
Maybe I just need to be patient, or maybe I just keep the gray car and let the Grail go. If it’s between that and letting a perfectly good i3 go for a song, the cheap bastard in me will probably win out… It usually does.”
So now electric cars are “Grails”?
What about manual transmissions?
What happened to the old David Tracy?
The Grail refers to the blue one with light interior that you see in one of the photos, not the one he’s selling. And yes, given how rare that build combination was, it definitely fits the definition.
(It’s the gold one).
Yeah, I realized I confused the colors but couldn’t be arsed to change my comment.
I have wanted one since my son bought his Bolt, the rolling ice chest. If you’ve been in one, you’ll know what I mean. Lots of Foam. The i3 is so much more.
So, yeah. I guess I’m the intended market, in a carb state no less. Now if I can convince the wife….
I think, were I you, I’d look for a 2017+ with just under 100K miles. You’ll run out of battery warranty at 100K, but the 2017 packs are rock solid. Compressors are still a concern, but you’ll have until 150K on that one.
2017 IMO is the best value for those in CARB states.
Lieber David,
You wrote the answer: sell your blue i3.
You understand the value of this i3, but as others have posted – we humans largely aren’t wired like that.
Viel Glück damit.
Signed,
A former ‘14 REx owner
You mean the gold one?
Whoops! My bad. I was projecting as I’d love a blue i3s. 🙂
If you keep talking you may convince yourself of the great deal you offer that the fools cannot see.
But enough already. Your car is what it is and you actually need a bigger fool. Not always there when you need them…