It was just last fall that the Houston Coffee and Cars event, one of many nationwide morning car meets, felt it had to temporarily ban Camaros, Mustangs, and Chargers after too many of those owners were doing burnouts and donuts leaving the event. They had another event this morning with a huge number of cars and… now they’re banning ‘all modern muscle cars.’ Permanently.
When this happened last fall, the organizers told us that “safety is a cornerstone of our events. We take significant steps to ensure it, such as hiring security officers for each gathering, comprehensive planning, ample event staffing, and clear communication of our rules against reckless behaviors like revving engines and performing burnouts.”
Images from the event show a fun mix of cars and a huge crowd, with hundreds of cars ranging from exotics like a Dakar-spec Porsche 959 to fun vintage stuff like a Ghostbusters Ecto-1 replica. The event was held at Post HTX, which is a food/workspace at the edge of Downtown Houston near UHD.
Unfortunately, not everyone wants to partake in the serene enjoyment of cars in parking lots and those people tend to insist on burning it out as they leave the event, resulting in situations like this (at the end of the video):
We’ve seen worse, but you’ll notice in this video there are kids, buses, and other people and things around that you generally don’t want to strike with your car.
Quick PSA here: Don’t be this person. There are times and places for car idiocy and they are far away from events like this. Car culture is not guaranteed to stick around and city governments in many places are looking for a reason to kick car events out, let’s not give them more ammo. Also, just because horsepower has become cheap, it doesn’t mean you need to cheapen the hobby.
Ok, back to what happened this weekend. There were burnouts and idiocy again and, with a million kids (and adults) armed with TikTok and Instagram, of course, the inevitable happened:
Here’s the official post:
If you can’t read it it says:
It all starts with you. These are the so called “enthusiasts” who have ruined our car gathering. Don’t complain when we do invitationals from starting today.
All modern muscle cars, mustangs, Camaro, charger & challengers, permanently banned.
And then there were interactions like this:
There’s nothing wrong with a V6 Mustang, of course, though I’m not sure it qualifies as a muscle car.
Again, I sympathize with the organizers here as it’s difficult to keep people away from a public event and, yet, it’ll be increasingly harder to find places that’ll host a car event if some percentage of people who attend act like they’ve got BB-sized testicles.
As our pal Zerin Dube, who alerted us to this, explained:
Houston people aren’t that smart, even though we’re surrounded by rural territory. They choose to do it right there. Been like that for at least a decade now and why I don’t go to any of those events.
It’s true. I grew up in Houston and there are a number of places you can do this without bothering anyone. At some level, I guess, bothering people is the point.
I do take some issue with the idea of “modern muscle cars” however, because it’s fairly broad and I’m not sure it’s just people with modern muscle cars who are doing this. For example:
As you can see in this video, proclaiming Houston Coffee and Cars “ruined” the first car is… a new Toyota Supra. Does that count as a muscle car? In the video from last year, there was an E90 BMW doing burnouts. Sure, people with Dodge Chargers and Challengers who put their Instagram accounts in their rear windows seem to be disproportionately at fault, but there are plenty of normal people who just buy new muscle cars.
It is possible to do these events without this happening. At the Galpin Car Show last fall there were tons of high-horsepower vehicles and very little shenanigans, which I put down to good security, good planning, and a mutual respect in the car scene that involves some self-policing.
If the modern muscle car set in Houston wants to continue to be involved it is, ultimately, up to them to prove they can behave like adults and not just wangs with steering wheels.
To paraphrase: “It’s a car culture, if you can keep it.”
Photo: Instagram SpeedHouston, TikTok CPHCarSpotter
I’m willing to bet that every single one of these idiot assholes has an Instagram account and thinks they are little bit famous (or are hoping to be).
The Internet: Human’s greatest narcissism enabler. Look at me! Look at me!
I don’t have the answer, but it’s pretty easy to see the problem.
What blows my mind is that they calculate that showing off for a few seconds is worth the risk of killing someone while 200 people have you on video doing it. Best of luck with that pedal misapplication defense.
Yeah, I’d have to imagine there’s quite the venn diagram overlap with the people who post videos of themselves doing illegal things, and are then shocked when the police show up to arrest them as they have proof of their doing illegal things.
They don’t calculate anything. That’s the issue.
Indeed!
Prohibit all cars that are under 20 or 25 years old.
Because nobody came to Cars and Coffee to look at your 10 year old Camaro or G35.
We’re here for the funny old guy with the beige 1974 240D with the wood & aluminum roof rack loaded with vintage Samsonite parked between the Blower Bentley and the TR7 with plaid seats.
Those are the real enthusiasts.
Not a bad idea. I’m tempted to add, “or newer but over $250k” or something, because that’s the only time I would encounter something like that. And usually those drivers aren’t the type to do burnouts when leaving.
If nothing else, the guy with the $250k+ car probably has insurance or at least enough assets for you to get a decent settlement when he hits you during a failed burnout.
It is hard to imagine a 20 year old who’s entire net worth is tied up in a 2009 Mustang has more than minimum liability coverage, if he has insurance at all.
Yeah I went to one and there were 3 C8 Covettes, including one on a trailer with all the protective crap all over it, obviously no dealer prep, was probably wanting to sell it
Or the kid with a 25yo beater Civic that was ‘stupid low’ and ‘will beat you to death’ (his words), but not hellaflush or stanced, and had a cut-down shopping cart on the roof taking the piss outa the burgeoning roof-basket crowd at the time. I sometimes wonder what he’s driving now.
Nah, this isn’t radwood, I like all cars and shouldn’t be penalized for imbeciles with room temperature credit scores in their Chargers.
Prohibit all people under 25 from bringing cars and we’d probably solve 90% of the problem…
There are some dumbass 31 year olds trying to
grow a penisrekindle their youth too.I’m pretty sure it is not a proper Houston car show unless all the cars have Swangas and are doing the Houston Swerve. Remember kids, the “S” in SLAB is for slow.
If I can see multiple versions of the car at a strip mall when it is not a Cars and Coffee then I don’t need to see it at Cars and Coffee.
Houston has a FANTASTIC slab show: https://www.texanwirewheels.com/slab-holiday-gets-its-own-day-in-houston/
I am as far from a show person as it gets, but I loved that one.
These events are scheduled well in advance, right? Wouldn’t a robust police presence in the area dissuade these asshats from doing big smoky burnouts in front of the venue? The big C&C that the Revs Institute does a few times per year generally has a few deputies stationed at the exits just in case things get a bit exuberant.
It takes a while for the police to show up in Houston:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oncY6GKwjt8
So it would probably be good to have them there in advance.
Yeah when I lived in Houston I got to see a real live shooting close upfront from my deck. After fleeing inside I called the cops and sure enough 45 minutes later Bufford T shows up to take a report. Turns out cops don’t like to be near shootings unless they are doing the shooting.
The cops are the ones doing the burnouts. They have a lot of practice from fleeing the scene of school shootings.
One of the largest C&C events in the southeast is held on the first Saturday of every month in Morrisville, NC. 3000-4000 cars and at least twice that many people in attendance is typical.
There have been a few incidents and the organizers work very closely with the local PD who have a large presence. They set up a slalom with police cruisers along the exit route and put the nearby traffic lights on fast cycles, preventing anyone exiting the meet from building up any significant speed. If you just want to leave the event in a timely manner, there are back ways you can take, but if you want to pass by the lines of video-shooting kids and get on somebody’s TikTok, you’re gonna do it slooowly.
The organizers also recently took the step of identifying several local “influencers” who were posting videos of people behaving badly leaving the event, and banned them by name for encouraging others to misbehave.
I had no idea these events were that big honestly.
As I said the Morrisville, NC event is one of, if not the largest in the region. It looks like this. Every parking area in the image, including those stretching into the background, are part of the event and there is a bunch more out of frame to the right.
The driving in Houston is bad enough just getting around, let alone at a show. I’ve never seen quite so many people take red lights as suggestions.
Not just Houston. It’s in the SFBA too.
Bothering people is indeed the point, for some types.
I was rather impressed by the crowd at our little C&C early last year. When some Nissan Bros left early over some words with American Iron Guys, the second one left massive smoke on his way out a side road. Far from encouraging it, no one lined the exit, and everyone was yelling “No, no, NO!”, “Not again!” “They’ll shut it down again!”, and people lowered phones and turned away. Even the usual suspects got the hint, and the rest of it was nice and sedate.
The diversity of rides—and especially the crowd—for a little South Light town was great; I hope we can keep that zeitgeist going here!
I would be impressed if not for the fact that the trouble makers were leaving because it sounds like people were jerks to them.
An older tweedy MG guy told me it was just casual exchange between two guys of the type that can’t back down that escalated. I wasn’t present. I will say that the serious drag cars (tubbed & caged: barely legal, if at all) left shortly after and didn’t make a scene doing so.
Things in life are going to happen: it’s up to the individual to control themselves and not be a danger to others.
Things in life are going to happen: it’s up to the individual to control themselves and not be a danger to others.
Very well put. This sort of view, to my thinking, goes to the very heart of the ideals of the American experiment from its very beginnings. When I suppose there were morons causing a ruckus racing around on their horses, spraying (more) mud on everyone…
True. There was much mutton-chopped vitriol spewed over hooliganism committed on Penny-Farthing bicycles back in the day—as I’m sure there was in centuries previous over young men racing their steeds across the countryside
History doesn’t repeat—but it often rhymes
It wasn’t casual if it escalated.
Guys with legit cars don’t have to act out and often the guys with less act out because they feel the need to prove themselves to the guys with legit cars who will not offer any respect to anyone not at their level. It’s all macho bullshit out of control.
From my experience guys do it it to impress girls. And very few girls are impressed by it.
Unfortunately based on my 1st hand observation, there is a minory of girls that DO get impressed by this kind of BS.
Maybe Minor Girls?
And they’re never the girls that one expects to produce quality progeny, and yet prolific at attempting to make up for that with quantity.
“Degen” is not a gender-specific insult for a reason.
I can see why they would resort to these bans, but a better solution would be land mines programmed to recognize asshattery. You can engage in whatever ridiculous behavior you want, but not twice.
A safer solution might be a giant electromagnet buried in the pavement underneath the exit.
If the resulting small EMP doesn’t break something electronic you can just leave it turned on and hold them in place.
Nah. I’m sticking with artificially intelligent landmines. The only problem is that some of these yahoos would just brag about how their car blew up on tiktac.
Bring your Humvee with a rocket launcher on top and aim it at Mustangs.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Death. Ray.
Encroaching on our race track with houses, knowing full well there’s a race track there, then filing noise complaints? Death Ray.
Doing burnouts abd donuts at or leaving cars and coffee? Death Ray.
Dangerously squatted trucks and SUVs? Death ray.
I like the way you think, sir.
Liked for lovefear of death ray
They’re not enthusiasts, they’re just insecure, peacocking assholes who chose cars to satisfy their pathetic, weak need for attention. If you ever have the misfortune to have to talk to these types, you’ll see there’s no real interest in anything beyond trying to impress other people. Other hobbies have similar people who ruin it and we should recognize the real problem here isn’t the organizers or trail stewards or whoever restricts certain boats from closed bodies of water or shore distances or whatever else, it’s the entitled assholes who cause the problems that result in bans and restrictions and the problem people should be treated appropriately by the whole community.
I can only think the show would be better without those cars, anyway, even without the behavior. Want to see these kinds of cars, go to any parking lot at any time of day, drive down the street—they’re as common as dirt. There are plenty of them are still sitting on dealer lots, even. It’s great if someone has one, they like it, and they aren’t a dirtbag, but someone would have to be really blind to not understand how common they are so that very few people care to see another one (that’s what single make/model/category shows are for) and that the highly visible poor behavior of other owners casts a negative shadow over all of them and the number of them showing up makes it difficult for anyone else to find the interesting cars so that, eventually, nobody else wants to go to the shows anymore except for the people causing problems. Hell, I stopped going to my favorite Italian Concours because it became crowded with new (at the time) Ferrari 360/430s and Lamborghini Gallardos and the interesting older cars mostly stopped showing up.
I once went to a show with my 260Z and a show organizer asked me why I parked in the regular lot instead of the show. I told him it’s a Datsun Z and everyone has seen them. At the time, it was 20+ years old and far more rare than any modern muscle car is today (especially in its condition), but this was a show with interesting things like Siatas and OSCAs and I felt like it didn’t belong.
This attitude is why all of those people who could be responsible enthusiasts never will be. Your judgment of who they are, your decision that they are not worth your time, and your need to yuck other’s yum is the sort of petty and childish attitude that kills subcultures.
Do you want a better subculture? Get out and engage with people who are making it worse and try to bring them into the fold with positive words instead elitest attitude.
Sorry, but this just isn’t realistic. How many of these meatheads have you actually talked to? They are, nearly to a fault, arrogant, insecure, petty attention-seekers. And many of them will not think twice about LITERALLY spitting in your face if you even try to suggest that BURNOUT INTO PUBLIC CROWD IS BAD.
There are people who are just plain toxic and incapable of change. They will never engage positively within the culture, and need to be excised, period.
Is banning all cars of the type the right way to do it? Probably not, but it does send a message to others that C&C is done with everyone’s shit.
Over the 30ish years I have been playing with cars, participating in other weird subcultures, and working door in bars I have engaged on a kind and conversational level with more ‘meatheads’ than I could count or remember. Some got their shit together, some didn’t and a few situations escalated in unfortunate ways. Grand total more situations ended with people either behaving better or choosing to take their bullshit to a different venue.
I wonder how many of them you have talked to? And when you did talk to them did you carry all of the assumptions and petty judgments you listed with you into the conversation? Or did you choose to meet them respectfully as equals and talk to them like adults?
Not everyone thinks the same or carries the same experiences with them; don’t treat people as less because you have a different life.
I try to abide by the same philosophy when working with my parolees. A little bit of calm speech can go a long way toward a peaceful resolution, even when faced with somebody with a weapon, and someone burning out of a c&c in their mustang is just that, a person with a weapon.
Everyone always wants to solve conflicts with… more conflicts…
Or must be ‘given respect’ before they ‘give respect.’
None of it solves problems it just makes everything worse.
I worked keeping drunks in line for like 10 years and in those 10 years I had only like 5 or 6 situations turn physical because I made it a point to always be respectful, tried to be nice, listened to people, and never gave ultimatums.
“I want you to be nice until it’s time to not be nice.” – James Dalton
I was a bit of one my brother’s more so. It does seem the more society cracks down on every little thing, Ala footloose , the more some are encouraged to fight it. Certainly C&C events are no place for this but in a day and age of Karen’s and Ken’s and HOAs and over coddling and legislation towards the easily offended is a problem resulting in these problems.
Man, your mind and value system sure does contain multitudes.
Yes it does. Depending on the situation my opinion varies. I think being open minded is what everyone should aspire to. Being obstinate really doesn’t allow people to get along.
Thank you for pointing out I am open minded and willing to change my opinion.most people are really bullheaded.
I luv you Harvey. Big kisses.
I see.
I grew up in a world where treating people as less (or even straight up dog shit) because of ANY little difference was the norm. It’s a world I worked hard to escape. For all the good it did. When I became an adult and started killing people with kindness, I ended up just getting ground by the boot even harder than before.
Even still, I let people show me who they are first. After all, it’s not an assumption or petty judgement if it’s true.
So it makes me wonder a little bit…. do you believe you’re exempt from your personal philosophy, or did you not see that your last sentence is at odds with the rest of your post?
To get something proven true you have to have made an assumption.
I like to think people are blank until their behavior and statements show me something about them.
The way you describe people and talk about writing them off makes me feel you are maybe judgemental. Maybe I am wrong but nothing you are doing is showing me otherwise; I have to work with what I see.
And if that is you, and how you want to be that is fine. I don’t think your bad or anything. I just don’t feel it is productive.
Actually, it was an intentional selection of words to see if you’d pick up on how changing a couple things around completely alters the meaning of things.
It’s taking YOUR words of “assumption and petty judgement” and seeing if you’d make an assumption out of that, and you walked right into it.
This is you doing exactly what you’re accusing me of. Going back to a previous reply of yours:
This language is dripping with judgement and assumptions.
Eh, yes and no. If your words were not received as intended, perhaps that would help you formulate better in the future. (Added on as I came to the end of this post and had read more): But I get a sneaking suspicion that it was intended that way, and you’re just playing holier than thou. (You’re giving a LOT of fuel to this today.)
In a broader sense, your argument is not productive, and it’s self-inflicted to a degree. I’m sure you’ve read and replied to enough posts on this thread to realize that you’re in the (significantly) minority position here, and the level of “fed up” that a lot of people are experiencing is quite high. And yet, it seems like you’re trying to shame people for having frustrations with the situation. Even going so far as to lob directed insults.
And before you go off on “he strung together 27 insults in a row”, I feel the need to point out that exactly 0 of them were directed at you. But you chose to lob a personal insult back directly at him.
So, perhaps you should take your own advice…
I just want to make sure I understand this.
You called people a bunch of names and I said you seemed judgemental and wondered if maybe you maybe don’t approach people in the nicest way but I am making unfounded assumptions.
I am in the minority because trying to respect people who behave in ways you dislike is not easy and nobody likes to do it.
I don’t like to do it.
But I think it is more productive so I do.
And being respectful does not mean you don’t make judgments; it means using more neutral descriptions.
There is a big difference between telling somebody they seem judgemental or petty and calling them “peacocking assholes who chose cars to satisfy their pathetic, weak need for attention.”
You are trying to respect people who openly disrespect and undermine the culture. You are trying to respect people who are causing problems for the culture that threaten to get it shut down. This isn’t a case of “oh, you like milk in your coffee? well that’s weird.” This is a case where the behavior of a few could cause the many to lose their avenue of recreation.
You shouldn’t be surprised when that upsets people. Perhaps you have a masochistic streak and like when people yell at you. I dunno, not here to kink shame, just think there are better avenues for that if that’s the case.
Hey, your time is yours to waste. If you feel like tilting at windmills, that’s fine.
The effort you are putting into being weirdly wound up over me saying you are maybe not being nice and that nice works better is weird.
You’re weird.
This isn’t productive, goodbye
That you still couldn’t figure out that I was intentionally “not being nice” is pretty astounding based on your boasts. That you also thought I was “wound up” was pretty hilarious.
This thread was never going to be productive. Not sure why you participated in it at all if that was your aim. But, toodles.
Which one of you left in a smoky roaring burnout?
You’re doin’ the Lord’s work, man.
I’m going to take the nuanced side here:
a) It’s VERY good to reach out to misbehaving enthusiasts. People do have the capacity to change, and quite a few can get it together when they realize that what they’re doing puts the whole hobby at risk. Hell, “not getting tickets” is a big reason I got into track stuff so hard. Directing hoons towards legal venues to hoon FTW. Cars & Coffee simply ain’t one.
b) Not everyone is cut out for that outreach job, though. This garbage is enraging, and it’s easy to make it worse or goad folks into acting out worse if you don’t approach the issue with a level head or some kind of common ground.
I can’t blame anyone who throws their hands up and just wants to be done with this kind of buffoonery, but you’re right that it’s not fair to write off the folks doing it forever, too. A lot of it’s just youthful stupidity in need of some guidance.
There was a point in my life where I was not the person be as t to talk to people about stuff like this
I worked past it because being nice makes life easier and me happier.
If you can’t keep the attitude under control it’s best to make the choice not to engage vs be hostile and escalate but so many people can’t make that choice.
How upset several people here have gotten over the idea that maybe they aren’t being nice is amazing.
Yours is the attitude that allows the behavior that causes shows to be shut down all over and gives enthusiasts a bad name at best and enables criminality if expanded further (after all, they are engaging in criminal behavior). There have to be standards and there have to be rules since too many people can’t just be relied upon to not act like primates flinging their own shit around when left unchecked, so someone has to judge and enforce them. These cars are being banned because criminals make up a conspicuously large percentage of their numbers due to attributes of these vehicles making them more appealing and accessible to those types of losers, so unless they allow everyone of them to first do a burn out before getting their plate numbers through the smoke and crowds, then check everyone’s registration before allowing them in at the next show, it makes the most sense to ban the vehicles with the largest numbers of problematic owners. I have lived cars for almost 50 years. I’ve talked to plenty of groups of car people and fake wannabes who just use cars to show off. I’ve been to shows and events of all type and get along fine with about everyone. There’s nothing elitist about not wanting to be around criminal shitheads who aren’t even enthusiasts, just sad sack wannabe “alphas” who couldn’t tell you much of shit about even their own car besides made up nonsense and ridiculous stories, never mind interest in anything else. These aren’t reasonable people. If they were, they wouldn’t behave the way they do or would at least understand by observing the behavior of decent people or understanding when they are admonished to change what they’re doing. They behave the way they do precisely because it’s antisocial and gets attention. It’s unfortunate that these dirtbags are so prevalent that they have caused problems for the actual community and crowd out people who might want to be there to meet people who are car enthusiasts, not compulsive flexers, but it is good that there are certain cars that can be banned with the problem people in cars of other makes hopefully getting the message and shaping up or deciding not to show up instead of someone having to shut everything down for everyone. There’s nothing elitist about expecting people to behave like we live in a f’n society and we’re not even talking about manners or convention, this is simply about obeying the law. While it is inconvenient and annoying for the decent muscle car owners to be pushed into a group with dirt bags, it would be shockingly oblivious for anyone buying those cars to not have been aware of assumptions people might make of them by association and nobody is stopping those decent people from walking around and talking like anyone else, they’re just not allowed to park in the show area. They might have to park next door with the other common cars—oh, such oppression!
Congratulations you have won the most Boomer comment of the day.
My guy, you are mistaking a desire to be nice and fair and confusing it with not being willing to say no to people or ask them to leave.
Look at the string of derisive descriptions you have strung together; is that much shit attitude doing anything other than being a jerk?
You can ask people not to come, ignore them, not feed the macho-bullshit that drives it and kick people out without being mean or having a terrible attitude.
Not even close to a boomer, but that’s not even relevant (who’s judging now, hypocrite?). These people are engaging in criminal behavior. You must be either one of them, are being intentionally obtuse, or you’ve had a glorious, easy life where you’ve only met reasonable people. Either way, it’s obvious that you are beyond the ability to communicate with, so have a good day.
Bro, you just strung together like 27 insults about people and you’re upset somebody judged you on that?
I mean sure burnouts are technically against the law but are you going to try and tell me you have never done one? That you never roll a stop, speed, or otherwise use a car irresponsibly? I’d wager you too are a criminal, or were in your youth because that is what kids do.
I’ve met a lot of shitty people but I don’t let that drive how I treat people I meet in the future.
Have fun taking your toys and going home.
I agree that I honestly don’t care if you show up at a C&C with your new Challenger or Mustang. I’ll walk straight past the lot of them to talk to the guy with the rusty MGB. But Cars and Coffee events should really be about enthusiasts, regardless of what they’re enthusiastic about, coming together to enjoy their hobby. If you’re into modern muscle cars I don’t think you should automatically be barred, but I can see the case for it in this instance.
The C&C at Revs Institute here in Naples, FL is put on by the museum and the Porsche Club. As a result it tends to be heavy on mostly newer Porsches, which I have pretty limited interest in. Fortunately quite a few owners of truly interesting cars show up as well, everything from Pagoda Mercedes to XJ120s. My favorite car of the last C&C was a Renault Dauphine with a built VW engine. There are the usual suspects who show up with “bro-mobiles”, but there’s also a few deputies staked out along the exit routes to keep the “Insta-whores” from getting the bad sort of attention.
Depends on where you live I guess. Some towns might just post up some cops to shut these guys down. Other towns will just shut down the whole gathering because their police have better things to do than make a guy in a Challenger R/T think twice about doing a burnout.
If you don’t want to be shut down, you need to do something about the problem. If it were guys in Porsche 911s doing burnouts into bystanders, they’d get banned too.
Also a warning stating cops are cruising by, even if they aren’t might help.
Same. Before social media and when there were both more models and price points of interesting cars being made, used ones were still affordable to regular people, and exotics were actually rare, car shows were attended by far more varied and interesting cars (and people). Maybe it’s that the cars were relatively slow (though plenty were powerful enough to burn out), but there were never these kinds of problems. One guy once in a great while, maybe, but nothing like the kinds of smoke shows they put on now and that rare individual could be identified and dealt with.
I want to state that I’m not at all against muscle cars and I’ve met plenty of cool people who are into them and I like many of them myself even if they’re not something I want to own. My point is that the inconvenience to the good muscle car people is down to the actions of the dirtbags, not the organizers and, were I in that group—as I have been when I used to be into mountain biking and trails got closed to cyclists because of a minority of jerks in that community—I would certainly understand who to blame.
I absolutely despise these car show/road takeover punks. I hope they all earn Darwin Awards without harming anyone else in the process. Totally not joking. They are a mortal danger to EVERYONE around them. But boy oh boy, some of these modern muscle cars are customized and fixed up so well it’s a shame they won’t be able to show them at Cars and Coffee. They are works of art in their own right. But punks are punks and I get why C&C are doing it.
Wishing ill on them instead of engaging them positively and trying to provide a more positive outlet is part of the problem.
I have to say I’m getting pretty tired of the “it’s all your fault they’re jerks because you won’t be nice to them” mentality.
They’re grownups. They already know how to behave and they are deliberately choosing not to because they get off on the fact that it upsets people. Patting their heads and telling them they’re lovely but if it’s not too much trouble could you please not be a raging douchecanoe doesn’t work because that’s just telling them that you’re upset by their behavior, which is their goal so they will do it more. It’s been tried for decades and the behavior keeps getting more over the top and obnoxious.
At some point, harsh consequences is the only response that will get through to them. Their behavior needs to have results that upset them or it will never stop.
Not all grownups know how to behave in every situation; for example, I STILL do not know what ‘cocktail attire’ is or how it differs from ‘casual cocktail attire’ and will never know…
You can be you and crabby all you want; I will continue to go on being nice and trying to promote better behavior positively. Maybe I won’t change anyone’s mind and I doubt you will but at least I won’t be the one who’s negative reaction gives anyone a reason to escalate.
Isn’t cocktail attire wearing rooster feathers on your butt?
It is not and I refuse to discuss how I know this for sure.
Formal would be using a rooster feather plug. Much neater look. Standard cocktail, just tape ’em on.
Gives a new meaning to tophat and tails
You still have to draw the line and teach discipline. It’s possible and important to set boundaries and consequences without being an asshole about it. Ultimately courtesy and kindness is a two-way street and it can’t just be one side always letting the other ‘get away with it’. I won’t personally wish ill on the offenders, but they definitely fucked around and found out. That’s what happens when you act inappropriately on more than one occasion.
I agree there should be repercussions. But I also think that people should be talked to like adults and given a chance to change their behavior first.
I also think banning a type of car and not specific offenders is the wrong answer.
I would tend to agree though it sounds like ‘a slap on the wrist’ like that has been tried and failed. I very much doubt this was a conclusion that anyone wanted to reach, but at a certain point drastic measures are sometimes necessary. If muscle car owners are repeatedly misbehaving and this C&C is in danger of shutting down because of it, then a ban might be the band-aid solution that is needed in this case.
The difference is that you not knowing how to dress for evening gatherings is not going to piss off entire neighborhoods. And you, presumably, have not avoided learning how to dress for evening gatherings for the express purpose of making people angry.
That’s why you not knowing how to wear a suit is different from douche canoes in muscle cars running straight pipes and solo-drag racing at stoplights. They’re doing it to impose themselves on others and make other people unhappy. You’re not.
It has nothing to do with being crabby and everything to do with being realistic. These people are bullies. They can’t bully people in high school anymore because they aged out, but they’ve taken that same behavior and attitude into adulthood and are imposing it on other people.
When you go up to them and try to explain that, gee, if they could just see their way clear to unfuck themselves just a little bit they’d make everyone happy and wouldn’t that be wonderful, that’s their cue to be even bigger assholes. No matter how nicely you put it, you’re admitting that they’re bothering you, and that’s the reward they’re looking for.
And to be clear, I’m not advocating that we punch them in the head. But banning them from places they want to go will get rid of them from those places which will make everyone else happier. And it will reinforce to them that when they act like dickheads, they will not like the results which is the only thing that might have a shot at making them stop.
The positive outlet IS the Cars & Coffee. It is being provided.
Is there not enough organization at these events to have a one and done policy? Misbehave once and you will never be allowed back?
I only went to a Cars and Coffee once (I rode my BMW F800S there because it was at the start of a motorcycle trip) – a BMWCCA event where the crowd was insufferably stuffy. It was roughly 25% trust fund babies, 25% grumpy old men, 25% street racer kids, and 25% actual down to Earth enthusiasts.
Compare to, for example, SCCA autocross, which is 98% amazing people to hang out with and interact with.
Banning the douchenozzles is a game of whack-a-mole, unfortunately. I hate to see whole classes of cars banned but I can understand why they are doing it. Some kind of action is needed to keep the meets from getting banned entirely.
I’ve gone to SCCA events. My experience was differently. Mostly rich cocksure guys thinking gods gift to women because they are risking their lives and driving loud and fast. And woe be unto anyone who suggests hey dude don’t be a d@ck.
Who thinks they’re risking their lives autocrossing?
Deaths in solo parking lot races at low speeds aren’t unheard of but they’re aviation-level rare.
The last thing C&C wants is to see their meets turn into street takeovers. They’ve already got the burnouts and crowds egging on the stupidity. That’s basically ringing the dinner bell for people who want to hoon but are too cheap or car poor to buy some track time.
I once thought that having track owners open up their facilities to meets might be a great way to keep the hooners happy AND off the street at the same time, until I realized how much damage to the facilities said hooners would likely cause at some point.
A motorsports venue fairly near me has a shocking amount of signs that it erected at its own expense along the roads leading up to the gate. They plead with drivers to respect traffic laws and others on the road, and basically to not ruin things for everyone.
That they feel they need to do this outside their property makes me imagine their fears about what might happen on it.
There’s a venue near-ish by me that is used by the SCCA and various other small motorsports clubs. It has these same signs. The venue has never had to complain about the SCCA folks.
Not shockingly, they DID have problems with a small drag racing club. These people were not NHRA quality, let’s just put it at that.
I was an an SCCA event once, and a guy decided he’d do a massive burnout. In the pits. He completes it, and gets out of his car, expecting applause and approval. You could hear the crickets. Everyone was paying attention all right, but the silence was overwhelming.
The guy was driving a Fast n Furious-upped car, so he looked to the tuner types there; the look on their faces was positively murderous.
He got back in and slowly drove out.
Texas is called the Lone Star state because that’s it’s Yelp rating…. thanks Sheldon!
Funny but I enjoyed living in Texas and the people. I have to point out they are a as diverse population as California where I also lived and liked the people.
I hate blanket edicts like this because I own a Mustang. I understand the reasoning and completely condemn the behavior because it’s nothing but Look-At-Me asshattery but damn it, I love my car and hate being lumped in with these dipshit dude-bros.
I own one too. And since the day I got her, 20 some years ago, I’ve been dogged with that annoying guilt by association.
But I try to remember this is also the car that back when, would prompt random people of all sorts and ages to come up to me in parking lots to talk about it, happily tell me about a Mustang they owned when they were young, etc.
Those moments were wonderful, and are again as she edges into minor-key classic age. They remind me there are good sides to the ubiquity and desirability of Mustangs, ones that counterbalance the bad ones.
Now in fairness, how much of it is from real behavior, and how much of it is from anti-working-class-domestic-car-prejudice/euro superiority that’s been the life blood of “the right kind” of car enthusiast since like the 80s?
For sure. That’s why like Matt, I get nervous about vague bans (e.g. what constitutes “modern” here?) that seem to target vehicles rather than behavior.
But how to get after the behavior seems the tough part. Would it be better for C&C events to say read everyone’s license plates and then use that info if something bad erupts? What else would they (or others who later access it) do with that data?
I sympathize with C&C and the terrible choice it faces – either discriminate against some or lose it for all. It’s just sad we’re at this point where it’s become necessary.
With how many cars large C&C events have to load in and let out in a relatively short amount of time, license plate recording probably wouldn’t help. They’d need an automated system that they probably can’t afford, and since most of the shenanigans happen on the way out, it’s going to be really hard for them to actually give the notification to the individual that they’re no longer welcome.
Since “doing it for the insta” seems to be part of the driving force behind the behavior, crowd control might be more important in curbing this behavior. And for that, you’re going to need a venue where crowds can’t really gather at the exit, or pay beaucoup $$ to the city to shut down the sidewalks around the venue and post security to prevent anyone from congregating.
Yeah, that’s about where I land, too. I really don’t like blanket bans, but I do hope this one spurs the modern muscle enthusiast communities to help guide their own into behaving a bit more. It seems like losing a venue or having to rein in asshats is an all too common thing for this Houston event, so yeah—what other options are there to try? (Honest question; I’m not sure.)
I’m not sure either. I have a sneaking suspicion that even if you completely banned the jackasses from the actual event, they’d just congregate outside the venue/drive up & down the street doing whatever, which then puts C&C in the likely position of constantly having to say “the guy who plowed over that telephone pole was NOT part of our event.”
Ugh, yeah. Plus, that’s harder to control as an open show.
I refer you to over 1 million videos.
Go down to a C&C event with a clipboard and record how many Mustangs, Camaros and Chargers do burnouts compared to other cars. You’ll see the behavior is real.
Back in the day it was the domestic guys being snooty to us import drivers, and in fairness a sizeable chunk of the import crowd was busy doing everything they could to look, sound and act like the dipshits in the Fast/Furious movies.
I’ve never bought into the “if you don’t car culture like I do you’re not a real car person” bullshit. But on the other hand, if the C&C is about to get shut down because of all the burnouts, and 99% of the burnouts are coming from 3 models of car, it’s reasonable to ban them in order to save the event.
Oh I’m less arguing the C&C behavior and more Jack Trade’s “guilty by association” kind of reputation
Oh, it’s a thing, at least for some of us. It’s why I won’t take my Mustang to any car event, even if I’m general admission/spectator and not part of the event.
If you think about the reasons they are ignoring the simple rule of “don’t blow up the spot”, it’s because they want the views on their social media channel of choice. People are watching with phones, and the pressure to look good for the Gram overwhelms the tiny lizard brain. I don’t blame the cars, I feel it’s the abundance of social media pressure and influence. When idiocy gets views or clicks, it becomes what defines our society over time.
You’re exactly right! You nailed it!!
exactly
In the video posted up top, at one point the channel owner says, “I breathe louder than that!” The people doing burnouts are doing it for channels like that
Eh. That might be some of it, but douchewaffles were being dickheads in cars long before the internet was around.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Mq5SWdCt7SE6QU4N9
https://i.imgflip.com/5u8kcz.jpg
Too bad these cars can’t be banned from all public streets in Texas. Every time I see someone driving like a jackass, it’s a “modern muscle car” with Mustangs and Chargers being the absolute worst. What is it about these brands that makes them so appealing to idiots?
I chalk it up to the combo of in your face styling and cheap HP. It’s much more rare (but not impossible…sigh) to see someone doing likewise with a Porsche or Mercedes.
It’s funny, but the Camaro and Firebird (RIP) actually have a specific, identifiable point when they became this car. 1977. Smokey and the Bandit.
That’s when they stopped being an athletic, sporty Mustang analog and became the badass car for tough guys who break all your sissy rules. And GM leaned into it.
Which is funny, because the real hero vehicle was the 74 KW W900A.
They are at a crossover of affordability and power that lets less mature folks buy them. Extreme power comes cheap these days.
Education on how and where to use that power works better than bans.
I see a lot of douchebaggery from “modern muscle car” drivers but it’s usually V6 variants.. people that could just afford a “fast” car and need to drive it as such. But then there’s also the Euro crowd who seem to take issue any time you overtake them and can’t fathom their German sedan being slower than a lowly Dodge truck. Ooh, and then the economy car/bad finance crowd who are just reckless because their car is an appliance and they don’t care about it..
Really, people are just dumb ok?
Hasn’t “muscle cars” been targeting that group their entire existence. Relatively affordable, lots of power = young guys driving them around irresponsibly.
In 1972, I’m sure there was some 24 year old in his Chevelle SS going around driving like a jerk to look cool for his 3 friends in the car.
Today the 24 year old douche has a Challenger R/T and goes around driving like a jerk. Of course now he is trying to look cool for his 47 followers on Instagram and hopefully anyone else who sees his page.
I’m sure this will be appealed to the 9th District Court of Swishahouse. Justice Chamillionaire is a stanch originalist, don’t think this will be upheld.
Sounds like one of the more legitimate courts in Texas. And I live there (although fortunately not Houston because of the humidity and toxic waste but I do respect that it has an actual culture).
My old neighbour literally drove a C8 with a yuuuuuge wing, a really dumb exhaust, and an Insta account in the rear window. That turd of a car will aggravate people in any available venue. But it’s not really a ‘muscle car’.
I also see plenty of GTI and FiST bros behaving badly so I don’t think I agree with this Challenger hate.
Well well well, if it isn’t the consequences of your own actions! As you all know I’m pretty fond of muscle cars, but Neanderthal shit like this gives all car enthusiasts a bad name and it’s bad for the culture, which you correctly mention might not be around forever with the direction things are going in. I hate buffoonery on public roads, I hate idiotic clout chasing nonsense, I hate antisocial driving in general, and I hate people that feel the need to try to compensate for their insecurity with loud, dangerous, obnoxious cars.
They nearly shut down the local C&C I go to for similar reasons. Fortunately they fought to keep it alive and it still exists with much stricter rules, but none of these are safe from punisher skull/300 credit score Mopar/Mustang gang. I wish some of these folks would realize that they’re a detriment to the culture but that would take self awareness.
It also really sucks because these are cool cars! I’m sure almost everyone on this site has thought about owning a muscle car at some point. The Charger and Challenger in particular are surprisingly practical and make great dailies and the 6th Gen Camaro is one of the best sportscars of the last decade. The new Dark Horse Mustang is an absolute beast on track.
I could keep going. These idiots got what they deserved. Stop ruining everything for the rest of us. Go have a high power/low IQ gathering out in the desert somewhere.
Sadly, for them (and us), we’re the attraction. They’d be completely uninterested if we weren’t around.
The C&C post putting “enthusiast” is my favorite part – they didn’t even need to add “so-called.” People like this are enthusiasts solely for attention…the cars are just the (heh) vehicle for it. If they didn’t have the cars, they’d find another way to get us to seek our attention.
Pre-social media, a friend of mine coined a great term…”the woo people.” The woo people are those who come out of bars late night, and feel the need to yell “WOOOOOOOOOO!” at the top of their lungs. While I’m sure it can be experienced anywhere in the country, I’m also fairly certain it’s way more common in urban areas, just because there’s more of an audience.
If a car does a burnout in the forest and we’re not there, did it happen? 😉
I have been suddenly and violently yanked back to the bars just up the street from the local University by this comment…
“The Charger and Challenger in particular are surprisingly practical and make great dailies”
A sedan with V8 and usable backseat!
I absolutely would have a Challenger as a daily/work car but I can’t have the stigma that goes with it. I can’t worry that I will be pulled over for two over on the expressway or if it’s going to be stolen if I park in a not so nice area for work. And that’s why I put up with a miserable boring fleet spec Malibu.
I completely agree but expect this crowd to just do their own “informal car show at the local Wal Mart parking lot. Some people just don’t learn.
Good. Maybe then Great Grandma Martha will whack one of them upside of the head with her walker for being a douche, and it will finally reset the misfiring neurons that cause the impulse in the first place.
Doesn’t that happen every day at WalMart?
Idiots playing stupid games and winning stupid prizes…
Kind of a strange move to emphasize the fault on the spectators in that Instagram post. I’m sure there are plenty of pictures and videos of people in these muscle cars doing dangerous things or crashing. Seems to me that the message would be more effective that way
It’s a shame this happened.
Ban the cars you say? The cars did nothing wrong.
It’s the ass wipes that own them that brought this on.
Maybe the solution is they should just ban the assholes instead.
It’s because of turds like this that we can’t have nice things.
I lived in Houston area over 40 years ago. I do not miss it a bit. Or any part of Texas for that matter.
Maybe the esteemed Gov. could just send them all down to “patrol” the border?
State slogan: “Texas, 10 times bigger than Alabama, and 10 times as retarded.
YMMV…
Very few people self-report as assholes so it would be hard to manage the entries.
That is true. Just the same it can be pretty easy to identify them.
At these events it is easy to note them though. Everyone carries a camera nowadays. As such a data base of the offenders can be pretty easily established.
YMMV
I actually think a fair amount of them would actually self-report. There are plenty of people who seem to relish the idea of being in opposition to whatever others want, and then even others who draw vicarious meaning from supporting them. Not a new thing, but the internet has certainly supercharged it.
Get a few influencers to start wearing flat-brimmed caps with “Proud 2B an Idiot” embroidered on them and within a few months you’ll know exactly who the idiots are.
Wait, so this wasn’t what “Limp Bizkit” meant in the late ’90s??
Finally, the self-driving-car use-case we can all get behind!
I wish more cars and coffee events would do this. My local shows would be so much safer if the Mopar/Camaro/Mustang guys weren’t allowed. While they’re at it, ban the 335i guys too. It seems all these chumps want to do is burnouts and donuts, they’re like a kid with ADHD and can’t sit still