As the fancier arm of Ford, Lincoln has an important role. It’s charged with making sales in the luxury sector, and some might say it could be doing a better job. Right now, it’s struggling to shift Navigator product in particular, and that means one thing—deals are afoot.
CarEdge statistics tell us that Lincoln has sold 1,722 examples of the Navigator in the last 45 days, with 9,107 currently sitting on dealer lots. With sales moving slowly, there is a full 238 days of supply on hand. It’s not an emergency situation on a par with the beleaguered Dodge Hornet, but it’s enough to drive prices down to a significant degree. As a guide, cars people actually want—like the Honda CR-V or Toyota Camry—have less than 30 days of supply at the moment .
So how much can you expect to save? How does a healthy $16,000 off sound? Heck, if you don’t mind a little demo mileage, you can up that to almost $30,000. Let’s explore!
Our first stop is at Moses Lincoln in West Virginia. They’ve got a lovely new 2023 Lincoln Navigator Reserve with just 9 miles on the clock. It’s been on the lot for 328 days now—almost a year!—and they’re ready to move it on. At $86,997, it’s a full $16,298 below its original MSRP of $103,295. That’s a full 15% discount. For your money, you’re getting a four-wheel-drive luxury SUV with a twin-turbocharged V6 good for 440 horsepower.
Other dealers have similar offers, too. Anderson Ford Lincoln has a similar model in Nebraska, again with delivery mileage on the clock. It’s listed for $95,000, a full $13,670 under MSRP. Funnily enough, it was listed at over $6,000 under MSRP almost a year ago and it’s failed to shift since.
Meanwhile, Stevens Creek Lincoln in California has one for $10,000 off. If you gotta have a 2024 model, McLarty Daniel Ford in Arkansas will do you one for around $9,000 off. Varsity Lincoln will best that, cutting $15,000 off a Reserve model they’ve had in stock for 107 days now.
But what if you’re not picky, and you’re willing to give up the experience of peeling the delivery plastic off the infotainment screen? If you don’t mind a little demo mileage, there are huge savings to be found. The following vehicles are still listed as new, but have a few thousand miles on the clock.
Planet Lincoln Texas has a bunch of examples on hand, including this 2023 Lincoln Navigator Reserve for $17,000 under MSRP. It’s got 5,068 miles on the clock. At Bergstrom Ford Lincoln in Wisconsin, they’re selling a similar model for $18,157 below MSRP with 4,854 miles. But it gets better.
Lincoln of Bloomington in Minnesota has truly gotten some good use out of their 2023 Lincoln Navigator Black Label. Originally up for $115,955, it’s had $29,964 slashed off the price. You can snag this thing for $85,991, with the slight caveat that it’s got 8,200 miles on it. That, my friends, is what the kids call a humdinger.
You might remember that the Lincoln dates back to 2018, with a refresh for the 2022 model year that notably saw it lose 10 horsepower. One thing to keep in mind is that the Navigator is rumored to have an update coming for 2025. A new facelift would have one effect on current inventory—sending prices further downward.
It appears the Lincoln Navigator might be falling into the same trap that famously caught the Jeep Grand Wagoneer. The Navigator dropped years earlier, in 2018, but it’s story is becoming much the same. It too is a full-sized luxury SUV that is struggling to make sales amidst sour economic times. The Infiniti QX80 is the next grand ship expected to trip over this same hurdle.
All we know is this. Budgets are tight, interest rates aren’t very friendly, and consumer confidence is low. The idea of spending a wad of cash on a heavy luxury SUV isn’t as appealing as it might have been a few short years ago. A new refresh could buoy the ship, but it will do little to shift tired inventory already cluttering up dealer lots across the country. The lesson is this—if you want a plush SUV named after a former president, the time to buy is now.
Image credits: Lincoln of Bloomington via Cars.com, Moses Lincoln, Planet Lincoln, Lincoln, Cars.com via screenshot
“That, my friends, is what the kids call a humdinger.”
No, it’s called “Used Car Depreciation” 😉
Pricing these over $100k was the death blow.
The problem with Lincoln is that there’s no logic tree that leads to that brand unless you specifically want a Lincoln.
“I want a luxury 3 row”
Mercedes GLS
“I don’t want European maintenance costs”
Lexus LX or TX
“I want to buy American though”
Cadillac XT6 or Escalade
Where’s Lincoln in this conversation?
“I run an airport shuttle and need something big and premium for the lowest price.”
A solid market to be sure, but selling to fleets and selling to individual consumers are two very different things.
Yeah, fleet doesn’t have same profit margins nor the same reputation. This is dangerous territory for a luxury brand
And Lincoln has been in that dangerous territory for a long time.
I grew up in a Ford family…but we’ve mostly moved onto Toyota now. I wonder how many “Ford families” are left.
I have a buddy who’s grandfather and father both worked for Ford. He drives Mazdas and used BMWs now. He doesn’t even want another Ford. His dad bought a new Suburban a few years ago.
Some but they stay with Ford and don’t go to Lincoln
I’d say from a performance, features and styling the Aviator is a much more appealing buy than the XT6 if you want American.
But the Escalade has had the full size luxury SUV market secured over the last 2 decades and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
I had a Navigator for a couple of years. Main selling point – it was cheaper than a F-150 of similar age and miles. However, once I got a larger boat, the high winding 32V V8 combined with not enough gears in the transmission to keep it at a reasonable RPM range on the highway led me to sell it for a truck.
I wouldn’t even consider the xt6 to be part of the conversation – it’s just a fancy traverse.
The escalade is also having severe engine issues, and is best avoided.
Seeing some folks go for Rivian R1S over established luxury brands, FWIW.
If I were to drop that much on a vehicle I don’t think the Navigator will make the top 25 list of cars I’d choose.
For me, I could BUY 25 rusty classics and be happy for that amount ha ha
(I realize it takes a ton of $ to restore just 1, but it’s all relative…another example is look how many cars like the ones SWG fixes up to get running you could get for this amount…yeah, it’s not as realistic for most people to have a ton of cars but for some it’s a dream- like Mercedes and DT!)
Huh I know EXACTLY where Stevens Creek Lincoln is. Right opposite Santana Row.
Yes, that glorious shit show of a shopping experience, meant to replicate Europe. My grandparents had a house less than a mile from that area, it was wild watching it turn into what it is now. The gigantic Santana Row sign out front used to be the sign for Courtesy Chevrolet.
I’ve eaten in Maggiano’s loads of times.
What’s hilarious is that I live right by there and had to look up where it was since I have no recollection of ever seeing a Lincoln dealer on Stevens Creek Blvd.
The picture on Google Maps has Subaru signs in it since the Lincoln dealer has no signage.
No wonder they have problems selling vehicles since people can’t even notice the dealership despite passing it regularly.
So it’s $85k AFTER $30k in savings?
People are literally insane.
This is not saving. This is spending less.
Bingo. Using the word “savings” in a sentence about a $85K SUV is just financially illiterate.
Lincoln has always struggled to kick the “Fancy Fords” perception. It doesn’t help that their lineup has largely been just a handful of fancy Fords the last couple decades or so. Much of what Cadillac sells are fancy Chevys but they’ve usually had a few exclusive models in the lineup that don’t have a half-price bow tie equivalent. I think the problem for FoMoCo now is that there is so little interest in Lincoln that they can’t justify making a hefty investment in the brand.
So you are saying they need to bring Mathew McConaughey back with his boogers?
If they can go back in time and get the beefy hunk who pooped out rom coms version of McConaughey they’d have something to work with. The older serious and accomplished actor version we have now isn’t drawing in horny moms with executive-level jobs.
Yes we need one that was in that one terrible Texas chainsaw movie and made the weirdest sound ever when jumping off a roof onto a cars roof.
So Ford/Lincoln shoppers are more aware, and cadillac/gm buyers are brainwashed sheep who don’t know what they’re buying?
That… That actually tracks.
There is a disconnect between pricing and consumer buying power that will need to come into alignment. I wanted a new tow rig and went out and test drove most of the BoF SUVs. I just couldn’t stomach the sticker on the Navigator, LX, Expedition, Tahoe or Sequoia. It’s one thing to spend money on something “perfect”, but none of them have me a feeling that it would be money well spent.
I ended up with a low mileage Nissan Armada for less than $30k. It’s a dinosaur, but it tows 5000 lbs like it’s not there and the payments don’t give me night sweats.
18 mpg combined on the EPA cycle. Yikes! The recommended fuel is premium but runs fine on 87. That’s a giant fuel bill.
22 highway doesn’t sound terrible for the size. (Source: drove an E-series that got 17mpg on good highway drives)
And, to be fair, if the MPG alone stops you, you’re probably too penny-pinching to buy one of these anyway.
Low MPG is all the reason anyone should need.
Is MPG significantly different to any other full sized BoF luxury SUVs, though?
The R1S is not a very efficient EV. It still gets at least triple the MPGe.
I get that there are use cases for these vehicles. Towing a ski boat while being insulated from the road definitely is a thing. It’s wonderful to be coddled on a long trip. Arriving at the destination less fatigued than a less capable or comfortable vehicle is great. But the cost to do so with one of these behemoths is a large fuel bill. Although that pales in comparison to the fuel billl the boat will run up.
Same problem as the Wagoneer: no one thinks this is a $100k SUV. The brand doesn’t command that kind of premium price and neither does the model. Even for those folks who are passionate about buying from an American brand, heavy discounts only put it back in a more reasonable price range where it’s going to get cross shopped against its Ford cousins and GM competition and still won’t sell.
Which is unfortunate, because Lincoln’s latest crop are seriously underappreciated (yes, price is a factor, especially factoring everything being overpriced right now). I’d take an Aviator (for example) over most any luxury 3-row crossover right now. Their new green over a tan/brown interior, please.
Why would you take the Aviator over most other luxury 3-rows? It looks great, but…
Aviators look great, the interior is the benchmark for modern pampering American luxury, they have more than sufficient power, there’s room in the second row for any of my tall friends or family that I might carry around, it has all the features I want and some I wouldn’t even use, they come in GREEN with a brown interior (among my favorite combinations), and it’s critically not a German.
Seriously, go drive one, it doesn’t even have to be a high-spec one. They’re underrated.
Navigators are nice vehicles. For what purpose, I have no idea, but they’re nice. Wagoneers have problems: they are very strange looking, like a vehicle designed by AI. In addition, they are built by Stellantis. If I needed something like this, I’d just buy a Suburban.
Even at 85k these things are way too expensive. For that kind of money I’d pay a bit more and start looking at real luxury brands.
85 would get you into a Levante – if you don’t mind Stelantis luxury
Is the Levante supposed to be the better choice at $85k? Because I’m taking the Lincoln over the Levante at any price.
87 would get you into a GLS450… so there are some options out there, but i dont think anything quite as big as a Navigator.
I’m not saying the Lincoln is the best choice; it ain’t. For $85k I’d rather just keep my $85k. I was just saying that despite the Lincoln being so far behind the competition, I’d still choose it over a Levante.
For $85k I’m getting a Tahoe or Yukon. If you could actually find an $85k Escalade, I would consider that as well. I’d probably test drive an X5, an XC90, a GX, and X7 (if you could find one at that price).
Cayenne starts around this price, and Q7 starts quite a bit lower.
(Also, I hat to look up the Levante. I have so little interest that I didn’t know it existed.)
A close friend just bought a Levante, and I was very pleasantly surprised by the quality of the interior and the attention to detail. It’s a genuinely nice place to be, and the engine sounds and feels exotic.
Lincoln’s latest crop belong in and are very competitive in the luxury space. Certainly better than cadillac and infiniti.
I blame the DEA. They keep putting the top Navigator buyers in prison.
Saw a dealer near me offering nearly 30k off MSRP on Grand Wagoneers. Almost like the MSRP was way too high to start with…
https://www.cdjrofwoodstock.com/inventory/new-2023-wagoneer-grand-wagoneer-series-iii-4×4-sport-utility-1c4sjvgp2ps541300/
This vehicle and it’s price tag are abominations. $113K for a JEEP.
Eh, it’s a Ram.
The problem is the regular wagoneer is very competitive on price and content. The Grand just isn’t grand enough
Why sir yes I do like wasting money on *checks notes* a rebadged fancy Ford expedition. I’ll just take out a second mortgage on my house so I can buy one of these. I’ll be all the talk of all the soccer moms and dads of the work. Wait they won’t notice me in a bland looking and over priced Ford? Damn guess I’ll just go buy and over priced Wagoneer that will surely make me the talk of the of the bleachers.
I mean, so long as it actually has some exclusive, desirable features above a top-trim Expedition, it’s doing what it set out to do, isn’t it? Not that I feel like digging to find what those are, but I’d be curious.
I sat in a couple of these back when they were new, and they can be optioned with some of the most opulent, luxurious interiors of any vehicle I’ve ever been inside. $85-100K does not seem terribly out of line to me for what you get.
Makes sense maybe the reason why these were the types of vehicle used in shows Succession that were chauffeuring the rich people around.
Interesting point. I’d bet most folks just stop at the brand and price tag and don’t check out what you actually get. That’s what I did for sure.
I can’t fathom spending $100,000 on something and not making sure it was the best choice. I’m sure some people do it, but it’s not a mindset I share.
Hell I test drove all the competitors in this segment even when I had no imminent plans to buy one, just in case.
Totally agree. I was thinking that when shopping for a $100k vehicle, I’d look at the market and see “Lincoln Navigator $105k” and immediately think “not gonna bother with that one” just based on brand history. I mentally can’t make the leap to justifying a Lincoln as a six-figure make.
It wouldn’t even make off the first list of vehicles much less make it to the test drive stage.
True true do wonder what the difference is between the base model expedition and the base model of the navigator. The MSRP price difference between the two base models is almost 30k. So question is is the base model navigator more optioned out then the top of the line expedition? If not the hell?
You’re not wrong, but by the same token that’s the same inaccurate thinking behind folks saying that Bentleys are overpriced fancier VW/Audi models (with some truth to that) and Rolls-Royce are bigger more-expensive BMWs. Platform and parts sharing isn’t by itself a factor of undesirability, but which platform and parts they are certainly could.
The McLaren F1 and Lamborghini Diablo shared their taillights with commercial vehicles (mostly busses), for example, but you don’t have folks disparaging them for that.
I’ll admit, these things are nice, but at the same time they are firmly mired in the mud of “also ran” compared to the Escalade. A family friend owns a Lexus LX and admitted that they drove the Lincoln but couldn’t justify dropping the coin for one and then watching the depreciation hollow out the value.
True, but worth noting the newer Escalade is hideous. I still wouldn’t buy the Navigator, though.
Absolutely true. Our friend admitted the LX isn’t great looking either, but it isn’t nearly as ugly or awkwardly proportioned as the Escalade.
The Escalade is also built terribly. We have one at work, with under 20k miles, and everything in the interior squeaks and rattles. I’d take the Lincoln over the Escalade, but I’d take a Lexus TX over both unless I needed to tow a lot, in which case it would be the GX for me.
I’ll take A(Lexus) Texas too!
(If you catch my drift…)
Which is tragic, because the Navigator came before the escalade. The first escalade was such a half-ass makeup-on-a-pig presentation it’s almost embarrassing to witness.
Folks just got mesmerized and hoodwinked by the fancier-sounding word. Which I suspect is also why folks favor the Palisade over the Telluride, despite being mechanically identical and the Kia looking better than its corporate twin.
Overlooking the price, the Lincoln really does present well in the BOF luxury class, and it’s not that big of a class.
Who prices these things?! I would be mad if it weren’t so funny.
I obviously realize it’s more complicated than this, but the fact that GM’s full sizers are still selling well with V8s while the Navigator, GW, etc face plant with boosted 6s makes me irrationally happy.
The Ford 3.5 twin-turbo Ecoboost is a fantastically quick engine, but it sure does sound like junk. And the 10-speed is tuned so poorly that it spends most of its low-speed time hunting for the right gear. I have a hard time believing luxury buyers would settle for those issues.
Did Ford botch their tuning on the 10 speed? I spent last week driving my Dad’s 2021 Suburban and absolutely loved the 10 speed in it.
mine likes to jump from 2-4 and 3-5 on a regular basis in Normal driving mode and it clunks if I’m firmly set on the gas pedal. When driving leisurely I won’t notice the gear changes and it goes smooth. If I switch to Sport mode it will do all gears w/o skipping.
But then again mine is a 2018 F150. I’ve read on the forums that Ford updated tuning on the 10 spd about 3 years ago.
Anecdotally, I have heard that’s exactly what happened. The 10 speed in Fords is annoying, in GMs it’s great.
This was the same case back when Lincoln still offered the V8.
The problem is that the Ford and Stellantis offerings aren’t that great, and it’s largely not because of the engines.
Heck, I was just talking to my Stellantis (Dodge/Ram/Jeep) master tech. friend, and he was only saying praises about the Hurricane engine. He opinion was that the rest of the Grand Wagoneer was unreliable shit that’s been plagued with so many other issues. But he likes the engine.
Ford only offered the wimpy 5.4 in the Gator with 310 hp max, at the same time that it was selling 360-380 hp Coyotes in the trucks and GM had been offering 400 hp standard in the Escalade for nearly a decade. A lot of reputations were made and lost in this era IMO.
right on the money.
The Navigator started great and its 1st gen was much better than the badge swap abomination the 1st gen Escalade was. 2nd gen Navi was still competitive but the 2007-2017 Navis were mediocre both in, out and mechanically while the Escalade went through 2 generations during that time frame and the 2015 refresh with the Ecoboost did little to change that as it was too little too late.
This current gen was a nice effort back in 2018, it looked, performed and felt more premium than a contemporary Escalade but it should’ve debuted in 2015 rather than 2018 when most consumers had moved on.
You make a good point. Since the recession a fair number of Ford’s established products have felt about a generation behind, when they were typically segment leaders (and arguably still are, but don’t have the panache they did in the early-2000s). The Expedition and Navigator were especially hard-hit, to the point they were riding in the prior-generation F-150’s frame design a full half-generation after the F-150 had moved to a new one. Yes, the F-150 could be a business on its own and gets the newest greatest stuff, but it seemed so neglectful not to give them something a bit sooner.
Maybe that’s the price paid for mortgaging many company assets instead taxpayer-funded bailout money?
Yup, I was sniffing around big SUVs for road tripping before I bought a big V8 sedan. No V8? No thanks.
I still wonder why Ford always seems to be a step behind GM in their full size SUV segment. Not as bad as Jeep with the Wagoneer but I don’t see crazy discounts on the GM full size segment.
In my experience GM full-size SUV buyers are among the most loyal consumers out there. They just buy a new one every couple years. Couple that with GM being just competent enough to know better than to fuck these up, and Ford, Jeep, etc just aren’t going to get a lot of conquest sales.
I’m sure that is part of it; but the GM full sizers are also just flat out better in my opinion with more range between Chevy/GMC/Caddy than what Ford/Lincoln is able to offer. I am sure people could argue that Ford’s stuff is arguably as good, but is “as good” enough to sway loyal buyers, most likely not.
And I am really disappointed the cool interior colors Lincoln offered didn’t seem to move the needle much, I would love an Escalade with crazier interior colors.
I completely agree. The Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban/Escalade are GM’s finest efforts and have been for some time. Possibly the greatest success in the history of the company.
Definitely the best vehicle GM produces, and has been for a long time IMO. My family has had a continuous flow of Suburbans since the late 90’s. Buy one, beat on it for 220k miles, wash and repeat. Most of them have only required standard maintenance to get to 200k+ miles.
We currently own a ’21 with 70k miles and a 2003 2500 with 270k miles.
Certainly they were for a long time, but sniffing around the most recent ones, after they went to an independent rear, and quickly ran into horror stories about massive electrical problems. Like coasting to a stop in the middle of the highway, tow truck driver says he tows 2 of these a week then the dealer can’t replicate the issue. Nope, make mine a Lexus please.
Because they killed the Excursion. They made a vehicle that could compete with the Suburban; they could have made a Lincoln version of it. Heck, they could have even downsized it a tad to compete with the Taho and “regular” sized Escalade, but no, they killed it and every full size SUV they’ve had since has just been lacking.
I mean, my understanding is that the Excursion would make a Navigator seem downright fuel-sipping.
Fueleconomy.gov says 16/22 mpg for the 2024 Navigator. 22 on the highway sounds fantastic for the size.
Meanwhile I’m used to hearing of 9-13 or so for the Excursion. And I know from personal experience how much money the difference between, say, 12 and 17 mpg can be.
The Excursion was also ~20 years ago. So, I think it’d be safe to assume fuel economy would have improved somewhat over that time, just like every other full-size SUV has.
True, but I think being built on a pickup chassis to get that fantastic hauling and towing capacity is still going to inherently limit its potential there.
But I concede that’s just my intuition.
The Excursion was a Super Duty underneath, so a modern one with the 7.3 is probably in the 11-14 mpg range (about what current 7.3 owners report for their trucks) and a diesel model would get more like 15-17.
Of course it would not actually be rated by the EPA, leaving us free to argue about it.
My theoretical new Excursion wouldn’t be limited to a Super Duty; it’d be available as both an HD and 1/2 ton variations.
Heck, my parents replaced a Suburban with a ’07 Expedition EL when I was in high school, and I was mildly disappointed about it even though I thought the Expedition ended up being decently cool.
The Expedition is already a full size 1/2 ton, so how would you differentiate the “light” Excursion?
The Expedition would be killed, because they clearly haven’t been able to make it cool since the second generation. The first generation was cool, every generation since has clearly been worse than the GM offerings.
Killing the Expedition and replacing it with the Excursion would be little more than a naming exercise, while also adding an HD version. There’d be a shorter wheelbase version and long wheelbase version, both available in 1/2 ton and HD variants, possibly all of those offered as Lincolns too. The Lincoln versions would also be further differentiated from the Ford’s too; cheapen the Ford ones a tad, move the Lincolns further upmarket with tangible reasons to why it is more upmarket rather than just increasing the price.
This whole thing would be an attempted new attack at capturing the full-size market; clean sheet.
I saw the big discounts and read on thinking one of these would have been a deal. I’ve never owned a full sized SUV, I guess I could try one out if it’s well discounted.
The discounts get it down to just about 6 figures? Hahahaha. That’s a Corvette, 911, barely used Taycan or two Lotus Evoras. If I’m going to stretch the budget, I’d rather have something I’d be excited to drive that fits in my garage.
These things need to fall much further before I’m interested.
I mean, you make a good point, but I think one goes into a Navigator planning to use it for groups of friends, family, etc. in a way you don’t with some of those other vehicles you mentioned.
I understand, but apparently those people are looking elsewhere if they need to slash prices on the Navigator and the Wagoneer.
It’s not a type of car I’d generally be interested in. I have no real frequent need for the space. I’ve never owned a full sized SUV, but could be interested if the deal is good enough. This thing’s still like a Civic more than a GV70, which has one of the most beautiful interiors ever stitched into a vehicle. It’s also about the price of 2 Kia Carnivals if I wanted all the seats and space.
This price reduction just brings this down to the price of a loaded Tahoe.
I’m a bit confused by putting this “[closer to] a Civic than a GV70”.
A Navigator can have heated and ventilated rear seats, for example, and they look of similar quality to the GV70?
Sorry, I was speaking of the price difference.
Even discounted, Navigator it is the price of a Civic more than a GV70.
This falls on my deaf ears when I read the discount price is $86k.
But the savings!!
Now its only $25k too expensive!
This 100K Ford makes my poor car buying decisions seem way more reasonable.
$115KLOL
That’s base 911 money. For a Ford Expedition…
The real question is what the fuck Ford was thinking in the first place. $100,000 for a gussied up Expedition is beyond the pale. Other than fleet use/Uber black, etc. who in their right mind would buy this thing? If you simply need to have a gaudy American boat then the Escalade is right there…but if you have sense these are about the same price post discount as a reasonably equipped X7.
The Lexus LX is the same price. You could get a Q7 and have cash left over for a barebones Wrangler if you want to do BOF SUV stuff. As much as we all enjoy ragging on Nissan the new QX80 is pretty and has way more tech in it and nicer appointments. Hell it’s a stupid ass car but I’ll bet a Jeep dealership will sell you a Grand Wagoneer in the 70s at this point because they’re desperate.
But at the end of the day outside of the Escalade I don’t think there’s much of a market left for this stuff. It’s not the early 2000s anymore. Gas is way more expensive, climate change is actively harming us, and there aren’t very many people looking to drop 100 large on an American sorta luxury SUV as a result. People have also started to realize that they don’t have to deal with the compromises of body on frame SUVs anymore as well.
Your early 2000s point hit the nail on the head. Then, SUVs were the new rage, and nothing said “I have money” like having the biggest one that had plenty of obvious luxury touches. Now, that crowd is buying luxury EVs.
If only they had NA V 8s.
I mean, a 2023 model has a minimum curb weight of 5,600 pounds. I understand why they’d want to milk every last bit of power out of it.
Then… they’d have worse performance, and still nobody would buy them.