I grew up in Texas. I went to college there and got married. Bought a house. Ate a lot of BBQ and tacos. Watched football. Sat in a hot, powerless home just counting the minutes until I could bask in the air-conditioned halls of an HEB. Texas things. Growing up, your full-size truck options were: F-150, some kind of GMC/Chevy, or one of those “other” trucks. The “other” truck was almost always a Dodge Ram. New data shows that the Ram is at risk of losing this honor.
Speaking of losing things, dealers are estimated to have lost about a billion dollars in the CDK Global cyberattack. Maybe relying on one company for everything is a bad idea — other than The Autopian. You should definitely rely on The Autopian for all of your news, apparel, fashion advice, and entertainment.
And, because time is a flat circle, let’s end with Musk delaying one of his projects and Stellantis getting in another tiff with its own suppliers.
Ram 1500 Slips To 5th In Market Share Behind Toyota Tundra
I like the new Toyota Tundra, much as I like most new Toyota products. Would it be the first truck I’d buy? Probably not. I’m still, in my heart, an F-150 man. If I wanted a diesel truck for towing, well, I’d probably buy a GMC Sierra. If I was just tooling around town? The Ram 1500 is a mighty comfortable truck.
That’s roughly the order of full-size half-ton trucks in my brain, and that’s mostly the way it’s been for more than a decade. Just because it’s in third place doesn’t mean I don’t love a Ram, of course. My wife drove a red, short cab/short bed 1500 with the Magnum V6 when we started dating, so I have many fond memories of Ram, going back to when it was a Dodge Ram and not a Ram Ram.
If you group the Sierra/Silverado as one truck unit, then American preferences have long agreed with me (which is rare, otherwise we’d have gotten a 2nd season of Keen Eddie). Sales figures show that it’s usually been F-150, Silverado/Sierra, and Ram 1500 in the top three. If you want to get super detailed, it’s long been F-150, then Silverado, then Ram 1500, then Sierra.
No more. Look at this:
Automakers do not give breakdowns of specific truck sales in any helpful way, so when we get quarterly sales data we only get to see “Ram P/U” for instance, which includes all of the larger Ram 2500 and Ram 3500 trucks. The same goes for Ford. At least Ford gives us monthly data, both GM and Stellantis now report on a quarterly basis.
Therefore, we’re left with looking at retail registration data at a long delay, as S&P Global Mobility did here. This data only gets us to April, but it shows the rise of the Tundra since its debut in 2021 and the sudden decline of the Ram 1500. The fact that the Ram 1500 slips to fifth in April, behind both the Sierra and Tundra, is alarming.
It gets even worse:
Those are inflows and outflows from the Tundra from/to other competitors. Since the debut of the new truck in 2022, the Tundra gained more ground than it lost and, in particular, picked up a ton of conquests from Ram 1500 owners.
Now, Ram is still selling the old-ass Ram 1500 Classic (which I like) as it preps for a new truck. David drove the new 2025 Ram 1500 and thought it was a strong entrant into the market. It’s possible this is just a blip as Ram flips over to a new truck and the new 1500 will stop the slide, but so far Toyota sales are up 31% this year while Ram sales are down 20%. [Ed Note: It’s likely that the transition to the new-generation truck is hurting sales (the old gen was a bit long-in-the-tooth for its price, along with high interest rates. I did have an initial thought that maybe Stellantis (who has made it clear that it wants to stop buying carbon credits from competitors) was trying to reduce its overall GHG footprint (and therefore carbon credit requirement), but to do that by reducing Ram volumes sounds like a bad and absurdly expensive idea. -DT].Â
It’ll take a lot more conquests for Tundra to surpass Ram and I’m doubtful it’ll happen this year. The fact that it’s a conversation at all is more bad news for Stellantis.
Study: Dealers Lost $1 Billion In Revenue From CDK Global Attack
As we thought, the CDK Global ransomware attack has massively disrupted about half of the dealerships in the United States. How bad is the damage? Estimates show that June sales definitely suffered, coming in below expectations.
Now a new analysis shows that dealers probably lost in excess of $1 billion during the three-week period from the start of the attack to the resolution.
Based on June sales results, Anderson Economic Group on Monday issued a revised estimate to its June 28 estimate, which was a prediction that dealers would experience $944 million in losses. The group now estimates that total direct losses to car dealers in the three calendar weeks of the cyberattack actually reached $1.02 billion.
[…]
The $1.02 billion in losses includes revenue from the nearly 56,200 new car sales that Anderson Economic Group estimated were lost during the three-week period. It also factors in lost earnings on parts and service, additional staffing and IT service costs, and additional floor plan interest costs on inventory that could not be sold. The estimate does not include damages to consumers, reputational damages to dealers, litigation costs and multiple other categories of damages, said Patrick Anderson, CEO of the group.
You can almost hear the lawsuits now.
Musk Delaying Robotaxi
How do you know a Tesla product is real? It gets delayed. In this case, the long-promised Tesla Robotaxi was going to be shown off on August 8th. Then that event got pushed back to October. And now?
Requested what I think is an important design change to the front, and extra time allows us to show off a few other things
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 15, 2024
Musk gonna Musk.
Stellantis In Another Fight With Its Suppliers
When not antagonizing governments, Stellantis loved to beef with its suppliers. This doesn’t always go well, but Stellantis keeps doing it anyway. Why? Carlos Tavares, pictured left above, seems to love to squeeze the most out of everything and everyone.
This time it’s a company that makes fuel tanks for the Pacifica PHEV, stating that it needs an increase in unit price to help cover its own costs. The basic supplier line in all these negotiations is that Stellantis has made huge profits, partially on the backs of suppliers who shipped fewer products during the pandemic and have seen their own input costs go up.
Stellantis reportedly tried to get a judge to stop the supplier from ending its shipments of parts, saying the line would have to be shut down, but a judge denied the motion.
The decision is a blow for Stellantis as the automaker turns to the court to protect it from supplier demands for better pricing. The company has argued that its suppliers are bound by contract terms even if the economics have become unfavorable. Lawyers representing the suppliers have argued that the supply agreements are not enforceable requirement contracts.
In a case against MacLean-Fogg, Oakland County Judge Michael Warren also denied a preliminary injunction against the supplier. To keep production going, Stellantis is paying the company under protest while the case works its way through the court. After the judge indicated that Stellantis was likely to win the case on merits, however, MacLean-Fogg’s attorneys moved the case to federal court.
I’m not an expert in any of this, so I’m curious to see how it all plays out.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
It’s Tom Jones on the Ed Sullivan show. What else do you need?
The Big Question
Can Ram hold off the Tundra or will Tundra replace the Ram 1500? What’s your favorite big truck?
Pickup buyer guide:
For towing, hauling, or plowing, FORD.
For off-road 4X4 capability, DODGE. (or effing RAM, whatever)
For on-road, highway cruising comfort, Chevy/GMC.
I suppose if you live in Texas, and don’t want an American truck, you can get the Toyota.
Tundra final assembly is in San Antonio. It’s THE most Texan truck of the four.
Specifically, the Tundra 1794 Edition is the most Texas truck, it has giant copper star badges on the side
Car care nut on YT has a nice review of the 1794 and got a good deal on it by basically just asking “what’s up with that truck over there”, so there may be some deals to be had on those.
If I bought bread in France, meat in Germany, cheese in Italy, and mayonnaise in Macedonia, and then brought all of these to Schenectady and made a sandwich, would it be an American sandwich?
Follow your own argument and the Tundra comes out on top:
https://www.cars.com/articles/2023-cars-com-american-made-index-which-cars-are-the-most-american-467465/
I dunno but it sounds delicious.
I don’t think German meat means what you think it does.
Oh, it does, I’ll take a schnitzel any day. Smothered in gravy.
I saw a video in college once…
Was Cartman’s mom in it?
She probably wasn’t…not in it?
“would it be an American sandwich?”
It all depends on where you’re getting the pickle from.
Technically, the Ford has better offroad chops with the Tremor and Raptor. Toyota, probably outside of the Ford, as it has better articulation and a rear locker.
Ram is the most comfy due to rear coil springs.
Power Wagon don’t care!
Had to be said. 🙂
Sure, the Powerwagon is a beast. But as half tons go…
Plus, If I needed a heavy duty RAM offroader, the AEV Prospector is a better option
I was just referencing TFL trucks for fun.
As for half tons, yeah, Raptor or TRX.
I’m not talking about special fancy frufru option packages. I mean regular trucks that do regular work on regular work days. Crank windows. Vinyl seats. Rubber floors.
Those trucks.
I don’t think crank windows are still a thing on trucks. Could be wrong.
You’re right, they may have disappeared from even the public-works grade models by now.
Yes they have.
I haven’t shopped these trucks recently, but I wonder how much of this trend with Ram is pure pricing. With their current lineup, Stellantis clearly made the decision to trade volume for margins across all their vehicles by pricing them higher than the market. With the market for $50k+ vehicles of all sorts becoming completely saturated and consumers dealing with inflation and flattening home values, you would expect the value brands to be taking market share.
Down here in retiree world, where almost all the trucks are jacked-up/modded in some form, it’s a Ford and GMC battle. So much so, that if you are driving anything else, you will get the ol’ stink-eyes.
I guess if I had to pick one, it’d be a Sierra Denali. My sib has one, and it’s damn nice. Then again, I commute on an e-scooter, so my opinion means shit when talking about trucks.
“ So much so, that if you are driving anything else, you will get the ol’ stink-eyes.”
Now I feel like hanging around there in my old manual Honda Fit just to see if I could get the MAXIMUM number of stink-eyes.
“then again, I commute on an e-scooter, “
What would get more stink-eyes down there… the e-scooter or the Honda Fit?
Actually, you’d not get a second glance. Most of the folks are cool with whatever. Everyone’s pension/401k is different.
I get some thumbs up and a ton of questions about my little skid. People smile about it and want to know if it’s dangerous/how fast etc. I did get coal-rolled once, but I get it, and so did the driver. We both found it funny in a way. We were both flexing (something), lol. Whateves, no biggie 🙂
In fact, since it’s a somewhat touristy area (like most of Florida), there are actually a bunch of free chargers as well. Usually Level 2, but free. For “hotel guests”, but it’s the same cars all the time. At least as far as I care to pay attention.
So, it’s not uncommon to see a “Mint” custom 24′ Stingray next to a Bentley, next to a 62 split window Vette, next to a dented-to-shit Honda, next to a Kawasaki tourer, next to a side-car Ural, next to the Mailman taking a piss and sneaking a beer. lol. It’s a true potpourri.
BUT…if you get into truck badge swinging? Oh boy, is that like arguing whether Phish is better than The Dead. Nobody outside of it wants that smoke, and no one inside of it tries to smoke out the outsiders. Causalities of war sometimes, I suppose.
Okay… so Honda Ridgeline for max stink-eye then?
I think people might just be curious as to why you have a family here. It’s more of an adult place, so something that practical would be confusing.
For perspective, my “boss” just bought a Vespa. It’s blue with the camel seat. It’s clean. He’ll drive it in the morning wearing jeans and such, but leaves at lunch to get his car and come back in shorts because it’s 5000 degrees here every day by 2pm.
“and no one inside of it tries to smoke out the outsiders”
Um…
“I did get coal-rolled once, but I get it, and so did the driver. We both found it funny in a way. We were both flexing (something), lol.”
Harmless testosterone flex. No different from deciding who goes first down the aisle at the Publix. lol. Life happens that way.
It’s possible to not have any “losers”. Just a different visor for the Sun. Either way, it’s not gonna iron your socks.
You’re a lot more tolerant than I would have been.
How so? Isn’t that the goal? To live your own life unabridged and treat others with the same indifference and respect from a distance?
Marcus Aurelius says the same when he wrote,”Meditations”.
He might have been a murderer of ruthless proportions, but he had some solid points about living saliently. So did Attila, if we are going to history regarding callous morality.
It’s really not that hard to be kind. You can think all sorts of “funny shit to me” stuff every day, but if you don’t smile at the checkout lady, that is a problem. (Even if you think it’s hilarious that she has a mole next to her overgrown hair that reaches her ear). That shit is still funny…to your inner monologue. All day. Nobody else needs to hear it. It’s yours for eternity, and is to be horded. For everyone’s benefit.
I am all about tolerance. (JT, I’m sure you’d have my back on this!), when you almost actually die, like, actually die in real life, you tend to be more tolerant, almost to balancing it farther than your own concerns. What we do in action every day matters.
Life isn’t a 90210 episode full of hairspray and drama.
I’m basically if you stop shitting on others for not having the EXACT same views as you, you might find that it’s no more than a bead of sweat.
Meaning, it means nothing.
Non AFM Hemi’s are fantastically reliable. Its actually really impressive how much better the life expectancy of older SRT motors is compared to their contemporary AFM hemi’s. If I were buying a newer truck, I would definitely a Ram V8 and shut down the AFM system. I have an 05 Hemi Quadcab 2500 and I like it just fine, but 6.4 would be a nice replacement for the 5.7.
Isn’t it early to jump to conclusions about the Ram 1500? the 1500 was at the end of it’s life cycle and the new generation is just now hitting dealerships. it seems obvious that ram did not produce as many 1500s as they were readying a switch to the next generation. Meanwhile, the tundra is in its third year of its generation and about to hit its sales peak. You would need to see a trend of more than 12 months to declare the ram “out” in my opinion.
It’s really not a new generation, it’s basically just a refresh and a new engine offering.
So dropping the V8 was a major failure?
Dropping the engine oil and transmission dipsticks are the real failures. They forgot who the buyers are
What makes it even worse is Toyota is doing this to RAM all while having the most butt ugly full size pickup currently for sale. Expected reliability is a hell of a drug.
Agreed, although the Ram isn’t exactly a good looking truck either. Ironically none of the full size truck offerings look good, except for the F-150 which isn’t overly brodozer styled.
I honestly think the Ram is the best looking and has been for a few generations.
The more a truck looks like an industrial heat exchanger, the better it sells.
To be fair a speeding industrial heat exchanger would be REALLY good at crushing pedestrians and cyclists.
I can’t believe Ram has managed to fall back to its first gen-like market share, being bottom of the barrel. I swear back in like 2020 it was being said that Ram was going to, or did, outsell the Silverado. And now?
Sheesh. It won’t even improve anyways since they dropped the Hemi (which they needed to do, because people bought it on name alone, not because it was a good V8).
If Stellantis can’t even get American full-size trucks right, there’s no way in hell they’re gonna survive.
I hate that I keep harping on this and whining about Stellantis, but as a Ram salesperson, there’s a few factors at work here:
The biggest one is the amount of people trading in Ram leases for another Ram has absolutely CRATERED. People are not going to pay 499 a month for 3 years, and lease the EXACT same truck again for 699 when they can slide over to Ford, GM, or Toyota, and try something new for less money. Stellantis is stubbornly keeping rebates low, and lease rates high, for what reason I don’t know.
2nd, they dumped the hemi, leaving 2 options: an unknown (boosted) engine, and a reliable yet severely underpowered V6. GM and Ford will happily still sell you a V8, again, for less money.
3rd, Quality has just not gotten better. The 14-18 Ram bodystyle was incredibly reliable, and the 18 and newer style has been less so. Heater cores, Manifolds, front end parts, leaking back windows are all recurring issues. You fix them, they go bad again within a year. It’s not enough to make a man swear off the trucks, but it’s just enough to make a man think about trying something else.
It’s such a mess here at Stellantis, I’m actively planning my exit from the car business. I stake my reputation on the cars and trucks I sell, and from what Ive seen the past year, I cannot trust this manufacturer to make anything other than the wrong choices. I’m about fed up, and it looks like others are as well.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, that’s interesting, and also makes sense.
Out of curiosity, what’s reliability on MY 2024 Ram 1500s (not the classic) overall? Does the 5.7 still have valvetrain issues or is that more of an isolated thing?
I’m generally curious to see if this Stellantis affair will result in Jeep and Ram getting spun off to another suitor (and hopefully a better one). Stellantis is really making a mess of things.
Are you really asking for information about reliability of the current model year? Not exactly a lot of time series data to evaluate there, basically only possible responses would be “they immediately fail when they leave the factory” or “seems alright so far”
Sure, why not? Someone on the front lines will naturally have better information than guys on a forum or J.D. Power. I have a buddy who’s looking at one and I’m curious if they’ve sorted the valvetrain issues that seemed to be an issue previously.
Valvetrain issues were fixed for the 2014 model year. I have been selling them for 5 years now and while we see the occasional 2009-2013 here for a cam or whatnot, the newer ones are quite reliable and trouble free.
Thanks for the information, I appreciate it. Do you see disabling AFM/MDS beneficial for longevity sake, warranty notwithstanding? That was something my friend was curious about as well.
Personally, I think it’s silly. Change the oil every 5k, run the proper oil, and acutally let the system work as it was intended and you shouldnt have an issue. On a GM, I consider it a wise move, on the Ram, not so much.
UNLESS you’re going to be doing a lot of idling, like for hours a day. Hemis HATE idling, and thats where the manifold and lifter problems seem to start.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with asking that. For example,if someone asks me how reliable a 2025 Wrangler will be, I’ll tell them with almost certainty that it’s going to be solid (if a 3.6/auto) to spotty (4xe)
In the case of the 2025 rams, I’ve sold 3, all with issues, none however related to the engine.
Overall, the 2024 is great. They are truly excellent trucks, the only real issue Ram trucks have are inconvenience things. Toyota has Engine issues, GM has engine issues, Ford has transmission issues. Ram? You’ll be replacing the manifolds by 50-60,000 miles if your truck spends any length of time idling, and at some point you’re probably going to see a wet spot in the headliner and that’ll call for a new back glass. The only real alarming thing on this body style is the amount of heater cores going out at around the 100k mile mark, it’s a tear-the-whole-dash out process to repair that.
I feel like removing the v8 is going to take a long time to bounce back from. First off Ford/GM did it right by phasing in boosted engines while still offering V8’s until those boosted engines gain broader acceptance.
And I also think Ram is the brand that could least afford to abruptly drop the v8. Their buyer group seems to be the most “yeehaw brother, I aint gonna let the gubmint take away my v8” of all the truck brands so it’s one heck of a painful bandaid to rip.
Ironically, a huge portion of the “stereotypical” Ram drivers pilot a machine with an inline 6 already.
Thats the thing: Nobody “dislikes” a straight six. It’s just that people LOVE that hemi. They love that sound, man. Think of it this way, Ford offers one V8 and 2 Boosted 6’s that are both (arguably) better than the 5.0, along with an N/A V6.
The V8 still brings in 30 percent of F150 sales. That is not an insignificant number.
You certainly don’t need to sell me on the virtues of 8+ cylinders.
What I am saying is that the image of Ram is built on the Cummins at least as much as the Hemi.
It is, but even still, guys that “into” a certain engine are going to be cautious, skeptical even, of anything new.
Thing is, the Cummins is a very conservative 12-valve, cast-iron, pushrod diesel with “they don’t make them like they used to” mojo built up over many decades. The Hurricane is an all-new, small displacement, aluminum, DOHC turbo gasser dressed in plastic with all the emissions gizmos at whose mention a Cummins fan would clutch their pearls. I’m afraid the overlap is a bit too thin to rely on for marketing, and Ram might see a dip until the 3.0 has either been around long enough to prove itself reliable, a BMW-like tuning scene gets built up around with “safe” 700hp+ plug-and-play downpipe-and-intercooler E85 tunes, or both.
I hope the Hurricane is a winner. I really, really hope it’s an absolute homerun of an engine and goes on to power many reliable and capable vehicles, because it seems like Chrysler put all their eggs in that basket, and I’m sure you’ll agree that a world without Mopar ICE’s is a few shades grayer.
Imagine if 20 years from now there were kids buying broken G37’s and popping junkyard Hurricanes in them. “American Muscle! Mopar or no car!”, they’ll chant, with their twin-turbo inline-6’s making ridiculous whistling noises.
I don’t think diesel fans are going to jump at the chance to buy a Hurricane right away either, but I was just pointing out that I don’t necessarily agree with the first poster who said Ram is uniquely dependent on the V8, when I think it’s more accurately GM who is in that boat.
That’s true, they also have the youngest demographic (the average Ram buyer is 50 instead of 55).
I think these younger buyers are the most likely to welcome the Hurricane if it proves to be a strong tuning platform. Stellantis has been known to cost-cut a lot of things, but hopefully someone in leadership saw the wisdom in over-building their flagship engine and reinforced it for corn-juice shenanigans.
The forged crank/rods and closed deck construction are promising, so hopefully it doesn’t have some Achilles-heel issue with timing/oiling/cooling. Only time will tell. I’m not a Mopar guy, but if there’s one thing their engineers can make when the bean-counters aren’t looking, it’s a good engine.
I wonder if they would have gained any public buy-in by heralding it as a spiritual successor to the Slant-6, despite having very little in common.
If we’re talking HD trucks with diesels for sure, but for the typical guys who have been the historical market for the 1500 class, I would still argue that Ram’s buyer crowd seem to be more die-hard v8 guys than ford/chevy.
I hear you on that regarding leases. Part of the luxury is being able to try something new, and there’s no way I’m going to lease the same car again unless I’m getting a huge discount.
I agree with your points, save for the Pentastar being reliable. It’s better than some, but they keep finding ways to screw it up. Lately it’s been coolant intrusion and failing injectors and lifters, though that’s been a theme for much of the engine’s life
Given most of Chrysler’s history, I am grading on a curve. There are millions of these engines out there and many many of them with well over 300,000.
For chrysler, that’s a pretty damn good job.
300K on the Pentastar? I think the highest I’ve seen on one with its original parts is 180K by an extremely fastidious owner, though admittedly my anecdotal experience with higher-mileage vehicles is more limited of late.
Join the Mileage: Impossible facebook group, there are tons of them on there.
Also, for some entertainment, theres 83 current 2012 and newer Grand Caravans listed on Autotrader with over 200,000 miles on them:
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/all-cars/dodge/grand-caravan/waynesburg-oh?mileage=200001&newSearch=true&searchRadius=0&sortBy=mileageDESC&startYear=2011&zip=44688
The funny thing about the 3.6 is they have problems when driven slowly and carefully for years. They like to be run decently hard once in a while, and they like clean oil, that’s about all it takes for them to last.
I also ran a service garage for 10 years in an economically depressed area. I’ve seen them with north of 400,000 miles, still going strong. On thier 3rd of 4th transmission usually,(lol) but still!
Can’t help but notice who is also the only players in Nascar:
Chevrolet, Ford and Toyota
And who left in 2012???
Dodge.
Combine that with an awesome truck made in America, and there you go.
Look at the rise in GMC sales though.
To me, the GMC of pretty much every generation since 1988, has been the better looking of the GM twins, I’m always surprised they don’t sell more. Unless it’s just an availability thing.
I always just assumed they made the Chevy so butt-fugly to incentivize you to pay more for the same truck as a GMC.
The better looks of each generation….
First Gen C10: Chevrolet
2nd Gen C10: Chevrolet
Squarebody: Chevrolet
GMT400: Depends on trim, but I’d lean towards Chevrolet
GMT800: Chevrolet
GMT900: GMC
K2XX before facelift: Tie, maybe slightly in GMC favor
K2XX after facelift: GMC
T1XX: GMC
They are more expensive in most cases. But I’ve long since said that they should just stop making GMC and have those models all be Chevy. Chevy has looked terrible for years at this point. I know, I know. Money won’t allow that.
There have been years where Chevy and GMC combined have outsold Ford. You would think GM would crow about that a bit, but they treat them as separate, for brand reasons.
My understanding of GMC is that it was useful so that their non-Chevrolet branded dealers (Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick) would have a truck brand to go to market with. GM spends a lot of money to try to make GMC seem like its own thing, but I wonder if it’s worth it anymore.
I prefer GMC’s to Chevrolets stylistically, which is funny because I’m on my third Chevrolet in a row. It just kind of works out that way since I take my own company’s hand-me-downs. 🙂
GMC is pure profit. Even the government realized that during the bailout. It would be insane to drop them.
People are discovering how awesome Toyota is and how shitty Chrysler is 😛
Too bad the Titan wasn’t more successful.
Stellantis should just go poof. Nobody would miss them Basically a dumping ground for the worst cars LOL
Sell them to the Chinese? That would set their auto industry back 15 years.
Who doesn’t love a little subtraction by addition?
The new Tundra’s issues should be something they can correct since it came from manufacturing quality control and not a design flaw in the engine. Personally, I would hold off for another year or so just to make sure the post-fix engines really are fixed.
Let’s be clear, Ram is actually 4th in market share. Even if GM says so, we all know that Chevrolet and GMC are functionally identical. The monthly sales data shell game Ford plays with the F-series and GM in this regard is just that.
I’m shocked they’re still building the Ram 1500 Classic. I’m glad people are still employed to make it, and it’s probably all the truck 80% of buyers need, but still … that’s like GT-R-old.
So was your listening to It’s Not Unusual bracketed by 23 plays of What’s New Pussycat?
Wow the poor Ram performance is shocking. Very interesting because this generation of Ram seems to be very favorably reviewed, and the new Tundra seems to be the opposite. The poor showing isn’t atypical of Toyotas in reviews but they are usually a safe reliable choice which the current truck has very much not been. Maybe the MY25 trucks can turn things around for Ram, but I’m not sure they move the needle enough and have scrapped the Hemi that was beloved by the Ram faithful.
I’m the furthest thing from a truck guy and I can’t imagine any situation I encounter personally necessitating a full sized truck…but if I had to pick it would definitely be a Tundra with the iForce Max powertrain. I think they’re attractive, they come in actual colors, the hybrid powertrain improves fuel economy a bit without sacrificing any power, etc.
While they’ve had issues with the twin turbo V6 they’re still Toyota and I think they’ll have everything sorted in no time. I also think the tribalism around trucks in this country is so goddamn cursed that I think being a contrarian with a Japanese one is the most appealing path for me. And while the Toyota engine has had some teething issues, it’s not like there’s a bulletproof turbo powertrain in the class. The initial batch of Hurricanes has been an abject disaster, the GM 2.7 has been getting mixed reviews, etc.
Ford and GM still have the V8s on offer if that’s what matters most to you. I personally would struggle to justify the fuel economy of a full sized V8 truck, but that’s just me. I think the 6.2 is still the crown jewel because of how torquey and under stressed it is, and there are plenty of Coyote horror stories out there even though the allure of a V8 that revs out to 7300 is pretty unshakeable.
But yeah. I guess I’d have the Tundra. Although the only truck I’d ever seriously consider owning is a hybrid Maverick, so my take isn’t worth a whole lot here. Some would say it never is 😉
What did I just read?
It’s an election year.
Several paragraphs of sheer unadulterated BRILLIANCE! Duh
I associate with a lot of people who drive this size truck, and what you’ve pointed out seems to be the most common reason for guys going with Toyota. It’s not really that they can point to much/anything that makes the yota “better”, more so just that it’s “different”
“I also think the tribalism around trucks in this country is so goddamn cursed that I think being a contrarian with a Japanese one is the most appealing path for me.”
And in my view, the most contrarian pickup truck these days is the Honda Ridgeline. It’s a truck that is NOT designed to look angry, mean or intimidate others on the road.
The Ridgeline is an enthusiast darling for a reason. It really is the anti-truck. Now if they’d just make it a damn hybrid…
You know what they say… never talk politics, religion, or trucks in good company.
Your truck brand is your religious denomination here in the good ‘ol US-of-A.
This is incredible, not least because the story of the last 30 years in truck sales has been the rise of Dodge/Ram at the expense of Ford and GM.
And now when Toyota puts out what is generally acknowledged as their worst truck reliability wise, that’s when sales go through the roof??!!
As for me, I have been a GM truck guy most of my life. I still think they put the best engines into trucks overall. But their inexplicable refusal to follow Ford into making rust-proof bodies has soured me on them (and Ram). I simply will not buy a steel truck ever again.
How long are you holding on to your vehicles that you care so much about steel bodies? Heck, my seven year old Outback still looks (almost) new body wise despite living in one of the snowiest (and thus saltiest) cities in the USA, and I stopped washing it regularly about three years ago.
Anti-corrosion applications on most vehicles are generally pretty damn good compared to even 20 years ago.
Admittedly, my current truck is the first I’ve bought new.
But for reference, I had three rusty steel trucks before that.
-A 1997 that was swiss cheese by 2011.
-A 2001 that replaced it that was rusty by 2013.
-A 2002 that replaced it that had holes in the body in 2015.
I don’t think it’s out of line to want a vehicle to still look good after a dozen years, or at least not have visible rust. After all, it’s not as if Ford makes a bad truck otherwise, or that I’m compromising much in order to get the benefit.
You may be right that vehicles now are better protected than they were 20 years ago, but I didn’t want to gamble on an expensive purchase after my previous experiences.
12~13 years seems not exactly horrible. It’s not great, but not horrible. I’d wager they’d last longer today.
All that being said, as a salt-belt resident, it’s never the bodies that bother me (for daily drivers). It’s the chassis, suspension, brakes, and exhaust. Heck, doing a wheel bearing job is typically easier done by removing the whole entire knuckle and pressing it out. No “bearing tamer,” slide hammer, or air hammer has ever worked removing a cartridge bearing for me.
None of the brands are offering titanium frames…
I did undercoat the frame before my first winter in the hope of making that a bit better as well. I guess we’ll see.
More than a few Saturn owners said back in the day said if Saturn went away from the polymer body panels (with their additional benefit of dent resistance), they’d just buy a different brand. Granted it basically came true by 2009 anyway…
That is an idea that I wish would make a comeback.
Does the Taco still have a plastic bed?
Saturn was way, way, way ahead of its time and legitimately groundbreaking in a lot of ways. So naturally GM had to kill it. You can’t get a Saturn anymore but they’ll gladly sell you an anonymous, 6,000 pound EV crossover for $60,000. So we’ve got that going for us?
I really need to bring my feelings about GM up next week in therapy because I don’t think I’ll ever get over what they did in the 2000s and early 2010s. They single handedly destroyed a massive amount of automotive heritage in one swipe…and I’m sorry but a Z06 or ZL1 Camaro isn’t enough to make up for it.
Early 90s Saturn was one of the few times in my lifetime that GM built something class-leading without 8 cylinders.
I will always root for the company regardless, but if it actually came down to it I can’t imagine spending my money on any of their mass-market products anymore.
GM is the gold standard when it comes to BOF SUVs. If that’s what you want or need then GM has been where you should go for the last 40 years. We agree on this. There’s nothing better at being a Tahoe or Suburban than a Tahoe or Suburban.
They also make incredible sports cars that provide the best bang for your buck on the market. Even thought the Z06 is a six figure car, it’s as fast or even faster than a goddamn GT3 RS. It’s an engineering marvel. So is the ZL1. For like $70,000 you can get a Camaro that laps as fast as a lot of supercars.
It’s nuts! If I was building a track car I’d almost certainly start with a Corvette or Camaro unless I had fuck you money. The bones of those cars are just so solid and they all come with glorious small block V8s that you can beat the piss out of all day long. That 6.2 is damn hard to argue with.
…but their mass market products are almost entirely phoned in garbage. When it comes to regular cars I can’t think of a GM product that I’d pick over something Japanese or Korean. Trucks depend on the class, but I don’t think GM would be my first choice.
What bums me out is that when they actually try they’re arguably the best car company in the world. The problem is they only try when they feel like it. Their highs are as high as anyone’s, but their lows are subterranean.
Yes I suppose if you call the Suburban a “mass-market” vehicle, that would be the exception. I’m not sure if it qualifies anymore though.
I don’t think the remaining sedans or any of their crossovers or trucks are “bad”, but I can find a better competitor in every market niche under about $75,000.
Whatever GM becomes if/when V8 engines are no longer tenable is not something I feel great about.
GM is the smallblock company. If it can’t have an LS in it, it’s not worth a damn. Every good thing they’ve made since Saturn went tits-up has had a smallblock in it or been available with one, with the notable exception of the ATS-V/CT4-V, a great chassis that everyone unanimously agrees needed to have a smallblock in it.
As a resident of the salty frozen hellscape of sheetmetal’s past, I love Saturns, and there’s still old ones hanging on around here. And I understand the demand for aluminum, modern F-150s sure seem to be doing pretty well up here.
Saturn, Saab, and Pontiac all died while Buick lived. I will never forgive GM for it and you shouldn’t either.
Blame China for that, not GM. They’d have been stupid to keep any of the others and kill Buick based on the sales numbers at the time.
I basically grew up in Saturns and I always find myself “both sides”-ing when it comes to the brand. There are GM diehards that are spiteful about Saturn because “it stole resources away from other brands” when GM clearly had no problem burning through cash anyway so that isn’t really an issue. (How’d they spend over twice as much on the W-bodies as Ford did on the Taurus and still miss the mark?) Would it have made sense to make it a true J-car replacement? Probably. Would the resulting product have been nearly the same if it were built under the GM umbrella? Not at all. But the car wasn’t really the big draw to the brand’s success anyway, it was the rest of the business/sales model.
From a business standpoint I get it was easiest to pare off the Saturn brand since they were all standalone dealerships. If the Penske sale had gone through we might have had Saturns derived from Renault(-Samsung) so maybe in hindsight that wasn’t a better alternative…
From the brands overall I never really bought into “Buick had brand equity” since the product has always been trim and tape jobs anyway, unless it absolutely had to continue globally to maintain the brand image in China, but then Chevy is out there too, so.
Personally I won’t forgive GM for crushing all those EV1 vehicles…
That’s as good a reason as any
All the cars I’ve sold because of rust (usually around 15 years old) it was because of the frame or other parts. I can’t spend another 3 hours beating a rusted hub assembly off a car when the bearings go bad. I wouldn’t pay more for aluminum but would definitely take it for the same cost.
The General’s rocker panels would like a word regarding the current state of rust proofing
I recently saw a K2XX Silverado with rusted out wheel wells on the bed; not completely gone, but several holes on both sides the size of quarters. I was shocked!
That being said, a lot of it can come down to what a person does with it. You drive down gravel roads at high speed all the time, all it takes is a couple pings to reveal some bare metal that becomes the nexus for pinhole corrosion.
Well judging by how the aluminum doors on the Jeep Wranglers have turned out maybe it’s a good thing Ram hasn’t gone aluminum.
Well when testing the Wrangler, Jeep engineers noticed how the aluminum doors and other parts didn’t rust and they all said “Well that’s not right” and they found a way to get aluminum to rust.
It’s a Jeep thing…
Until Toyota definitively sorts out its engine issues on their new trucks, I’d favor a Ram over a Tundra right now. It wasn’t that long ago when Ram had the #2 sales slot. It’s also not deliberately hideous like the Toyota and gm duo, which is another point in its favor.
However, it’s kind of a moot point because if I’m buying a half-ton or larger truck, it’d be a Ford. I get to drive nearly every common U.S.-sold make and model vehicle as part of my job, and Ford continues to exhibit why it’s so dominant in trucks. Not saying they get a free pass, but they’re still currently the best choice.
That said, I’d still get a tundra over one of the gm options. I’d just have to get a mask or some treatment to the front end to make it less repulsive to look at.
Personally, when it comes to half tons, F150, Tundra, Sierra, Silverado, Ram in that order. Tundra has been growing on me as of late, but the F150 is a better value and has a better interior. The Ram has been disappointing for years, due to reliability. Sure, every truck has it’s own issues, but the Rams are pathetic. The Pentastars and Hemis both eat camshafts regularly, and the ecodiesel is a disaster long-term. I can’t imagine the Hurricane I-6 will help anything.
Man, poor Nissan Titan barely keeping up off the floor of that chart.
Personally I wouldn’t chose any of today’s “full-size” trucks because I’d have to buy a second garage and saw the truck in half to fit it in both of them. Today’s “mid-sized” trucks are now the same size that full-sized trucks used to be. So if I absolutely had to have a truck I’d buy another Taco, or if I won the lotto, a Rivian.
I really wanted to love the new Tacoma until I saw the leg room in the second row… IDK what they were thinking there.
I should clarify, I would get the 2-door Tacoma. I blame the 4-door truck movement for how damn big the entire segment has grown.
I built my house about 7 years ago. I still remember sitting in the intro meeting before the hole was even dug, and the Super was going over the plans to make sure everything was what we expected it to be.
He got to the option I checked for an extended garage, and immediately assumed I drove a full-size pickup. The “standard” garages in my neighborhood are around 20′ deep. A quick google shows the most popular F-150 configurations are around 231″ (or just over 19′) long. An extra 4′ of garage depth is a necessity to get a full-size in these garages!
I had to let him down: I do not, in fact, own a truck, I’m just smart enough to know that with the teeny-tiny yards and deed restrictions on putting up a shed (for some dumb reason), I knew the extra garage space was going to be clutch (and it has been!).
I’m convinced that all architects drive Miatas because residential garage, parking garages, and parking lots are all too damn small for modern vehicles.
The flip side to that is we drive cars that are too big (and there are lots of reasons for it, I’m just noticing). I’m not immune to this, even though I was talked into what feels like a Miata-sized vehicle (CX-30) by my wife, I’d really rather another size class up, even if it is me alone 99% of the time. But hot damn can parking be amazingly easy to find!
I drive a BRZ which is one of the smaller modern cars available but still find parking lots crowded because I live in the land of giant trucks.
There are a few lots in the Downtown area that are relatively tight even for me. I don’t understand why I also need to dodge full-sized trucks in those places!
They fit my Miata perfectly, though!
Some of them might be driving Honda Fits!
You can never have too much garage.
Truck in one or not.
This is true, because lawn mowers and wheelbarrows and pressure washers and bicycles and sailboats and giant plastic totes full of whatever all have to go somewhere.
Also, we all know that tools reproduce on their own when left alone. I sure as hell don’t continue to buy things I don’t need….. yet. Nope nope
I can’t imagine buying a new Tundra. It’s clearly the worst of the bunch (well, 2nd worse if you include Nissan) and doesn’t even have Toyota’s famed reliability. Like, what exactly are you getting? It doesn’t seem to be particularly competitive at anything, besides (probably) resale value?
Toyota actually decreased reliability so previous Ram owners wouldn’t be scared off by the lack of major component failures.
Tundra sells to a different market than the other half tons. Sure the first batch of engines had some duds, but they’re still probably going to outlive the competitor’s engines.
Last I heard, this generation Tundra is still an unreliable turd. I haven’t heard of any major fixes to their current reliability problems.
It’s not fuel efficient, it’s not reliable, it’s not anything other than disappointing.
If I were in the market for a new pickup I doubt I would even bother test driving it. I’d test drive what the Big 3 have and then likely choose based off that and what pricing I could get. They are all so close that I’d largely ignore most reviews of them.
Stellantis reliability would be sticking in the back of my head though…
I would argue that GM’s 5.3 will outlast just about anything.
Yes and no… If the DOD is deleted, they’re great. If not, then they are low key ticking time bombs.
You mean no one wants to deal with Stellantis reliability problems and higher insurance premiums from so many Ram owners driving drunk? I’m shocked.
They’re not drunk, they’re just Big Horned!